Understanding Canon

[Beniboybling]

There are a lot of discussions going on now about the status of the EU but I see a lot of the confusion and the argument arising from a conflict how people use terms like canon, continuity, non-canon etc. Which I will try to resolve.

 

NOTE: These definitions I am about to give are those established prior to the recent announcement. The definitions of these terms may be changing but I feel Disney/Lucasfilm are using them in the same way as before.

 

But for all you TL;DR'ers, here is the quick version:

 

Canon: What definitely happened.

 

EU/Rest of Continuity: What might have happened.

 

N-Canon: What definitely didn't happen.

 

First, lets begin with Wookieepedia's overall definition complete with a quote from the Star Wars Insider:

 

"'Gospel,' or canon as we refer to it, includes the screenplays, the films, the radio dramas and the novelizations. These works spin out of George Lucas' original stories, the rest are written by other writers. However, between us, we've read everything, and much of it is taken into account in the overall continuity. The entire catalog of published works comprises a vast history—with many off-shoots, variations and tangents—like any other well-developed mythology."

 

To understand canon and continuity, the overall Star Wars saga should be looked at as a set of stories written by many different people which "document" past "events." Although some stories are more reliable than others, they all are looked upon as part of the overall "history." It should also be remembered that all of these stories are simply that—stories. There are numerous errors that inevitably arise between the stories simply because different authors have their own ways of telling the story and may not have the time and resources to perfectly align the details. This site deals with non-canon material by putting red text notification above the non-canon items.

 

The situation can be compared to Greek and Roman mythology, or the stories of King Arthur. The various Star Wars tales are a group of separate but linked stories, and are told by many different authors over a period of time.

 

Gospel/Canon: "a collection or list of sacred books accepted as genuine."

 

Canon, in terms of the Star Wars Universe prior to this announcement consisted of the movies, the novelizations, and the TCW show. Effectively everything "on screen". Canon as it is in biblical terms is a completely authentic, accurate and real image of the Star Wars universe, it should be taken as absolute truth and cannot be changed or undermined.

 

That which is Canon therefore has absolute authority over all other Star Wars works and has the power to overwrite or elevate them as they will. But they are not bound by them in anyway, instead its the other way around.

 

Continuity: according to Wikipedia continuity is "consistency of the characteristics of people, plot, objects, and places seen by the reader or viewer over some period of time" and this is how it operates in the Star Wars Universe.

 

It is the timeline of the Star Wars Universe, the catalog of events from beginning and end that gives Star Wars is cohesive, singular nature. The EU is part of this continuity, as is the canon. And as part of the continuity and in order to maintain it LucaBooks "works diligently to keep the continuing Star Wars expanded universe cohesive and uniform."

 

The continuity is flexible however, and allows for different stylistic interpretations and operates under the principle that as a documentation of the history of Star Wars everything outside the canon is merely interpreting events and therefore, like in myth and legend, are based on interpretation and speculation. They are windows into the "real" Star Wars universe and while they may contain nuggets of truth, should not be treated as absolute fact.

 

Expanded Universe: the definition according to Lucasfilm being "anything in the Star Wars universe outside the scope of the movies or TV shows i.e. books, comics, games etc."

 

The EU is expected in all things to abide and align with the canon, and with the aim of maintain continuity is expected to work well with the EU works surrounding it. However until they are adopted into the canon they are not treated as absolute fact, and instead are what "may" have happened, subject to interpretation and exaggeration.

 

They are the myths and legends of the Star Wars universe as opposed to the absolute facts.

 

Levels of Canon: G-Canon, T-Canon, C-Canon, S-Canon, N-Canon and D-Canon are the level of canon within the Holocron Continuity Database. However they only exist within the Holocron Continuity Database and to not impact on the above definitions. They are a means of sorting out contradictions between material and maintaining continuity and as of recently with the Story Group will be completely internal and no longer relevant to the fans.

 

The fact that the EU is labelled under C-Canon does not make it "Canon". C standing for Continuity as that is what the EU is, it is part of the Star Wars story, but they are just that, stories, not accurate or even true depictions of Star Wars.

 

N-Canon: Material headed under this title does have an impact on continuity as it is what definitely didn't happen. It is the Star Wars equivalent of apocrypha, the anti-canon. Material that is either irrevocably contradicted/overridden by works considered part of the continuity, or was never considered at all true in the first place.

 

It is plainly false, false stories propagated by false prophets. Things like Skippy the Droid (which definitely didn't happen) and the Infinities line, the What If stories of the Original Trilogy fall under this banner.

 

Moving Forward: Now in the future I expect the word non-canon is going to be used in reference to Legends, but we shouldn't become confused and assume this means it exists on the N-Canon banner, that is apocrypha. All this means is that is is not part of the canon, the absolute truth, not that it is false - if that were the case then Lucasfilm would not be simultaneously informing us that these supposed untruths will be incorporated into canon in the future.

 

Disney's vision for the future in these terms seems should be considered as an act of separating fact from fiction, sifting through the stories to elevate what is truth (i.e. what they like) and what is not (i.e. what they don't like.)

 

For more thoughts on how the Legends banner effects the canon system see my previous thread.

[JediMasterAlex]

I appreciate your systematic approach to this complex mess, but I have a few queries. You seem to contradict yourself in one important aspect of your argument. First, you claim that the "continuity" (we might need a new thread to figure out what that means) includes both official canon and EU material according to the old system. I tend to agree with you, because that was my sense of the situation as well. You also rightly point out that the EU material could always be overridden, and no one denies that.

 

However, you seem to realize that now Lucasfilm will be sorting "fact from fiction" to create two distinct universes. The fact that all future material that would have been EU will now be canon surely marks a sharp break from the past policy. I just don't see the argument at all for "not much has changed, don't overreact" which seems to be your position. Are you arguing that Legends are now just as much a part of the continuity as the EU was? If so, why would Lucasfilm create a new designation for it? How do you account for the fact that no more EU/Legends material will be produced (other than perhaps this game)?

Edited April 27, 2014 by JediMasterAlex

[Beniboybling]

I appreciate your systematic approach to this complex mess, but I have a few queries. You seem to contradict yourself in one important aspect of your argument. First, you claim that the "continuity" (we might need a new thread to figure out what that means) includes both official canon and EU material according to the old system. I tend to agree with you, because that was my sense of the situation as well. You also rightly point out that the EU material could always be overridden, and no one denies that.

 

However, you seem to realize that now Lucasfilm will be sorting "fact from fiction" to create two distinct universes. The fact that all future material that would have been EU will now be canon surely marks a sharp break from the past policy. I just don't see the argument at all for "not much has changed, don't overreact" which seems to be your position. Are you arguing that Legends are now just as part of the continuity as the EU was? If so, why would Lucasfilm create a new designation for it? How do you account for the fact that no more EU/Legends material will be produced (other than perhaps this game)?

I'm not trying to make an argument here, this is just to clarify what these terms mean, because I think a lot of people are using them incorrectly which is causing confusion. For example, a lot of people seem to think that "canon" was previously everything and anything that is not canon doesn't not exists, that it is false.

 

I still stand by my belief of how things will proceed. To answer your question I believe Legends was created as a sort of limbo. Its not quite part of continuity because it could be overridden by this pretty massive project the Story Group is undertaking. But it also could be left untouched, and even incoporated into the canon.

 

To make this clear let be provide an analogy of sorts:

 

Imagine Lucasfilm represents a group of historians, and they've been given a massive pile of legends, myths, stories etc. about the history of the SW universe. The stories give a relatively accurate and cohesive picture of the history of the universe, but there are contradictions, exaggerations and interpretations of character and places differ.

 

So the historians have set it upon themselves to pour over these stories and try and establish a "canon" - i.e. the absolute facts - about this history, drawing on information from the stories, but also in part invalidating it.

 

On this basis we wouldn't say that all those stories are false or "non-canon", but neither would we say there are absolutely true. They exist in a limbo state of what "might" have happened really not all too dissimilar to how it was before, the difference is the historians are now making a concerted effort to order it, rather than leaving it be.

 

This is my understanding of the situation. I believe Legends still holds a degree of authenticity and I believe as this "project" gets underway we'll get a much clearer picture of which stories are "canon" and which are untrue.

 

Now I think there has been a change in perspective here, most of the higher ups have been thinking on these lines for a long time but I think in the absence of major, continual retcons they were content to just say "yeah it happened." So yes its different, but its based on decades old principles. Which is good because I feel (or hope) that Lucasfilm will treat the old EU with the same level of respect as they did before, look to TCW for details.

[Girdeux]

However, you seem to realize that now Lucasfilm will be sorting "fact from fiction" to create two distinct universes. The fact that all future material that would have been EU will now be canon surely marks a sharp break from the past policy. I just don't see the argument at all for "not much has changed, don't overreact" which seems to be your position. Are you arguing that Legends are now just as much a part of the continuity as the EU was? If so, why would Lucasfilm create a new designation for it? How do you account for the fact that no more EU/Legends material will be produced (other than perhaps this game)?

 

The problem is he is taking the word "legends" too literally. There is only one continuity going forward and we have our answer already on that. Nothing from the old EU is in that continuity unless stated otherwise.

 

Q: Nice appearance in the vid...did any existing stories make the cut? Or all new material being created?

JH: Existing stories are there as a resource. But only new stories going forward are part of this "one universe."

[JediMasterAlex]

The problem is he is taking the word "legends" too literally. There is only one continuity going forward and we have our answer already on that. Nothing from the old EU is in that continuity unless stated otherwise.

 

Q: Nice appearance in the vid...did any existing stories make the cut? Or all new material being created?

JH: Existing stories are there as a resource. But only new stories going forward are part of this "one universe."

 

Right. The OP even acknowledges that Legends "could be left untouched, and even incoporated into the canon," himself clearly implying, correctly, that Legends are not part of the continuity. OP, your view seems to be based more upon speculation and optimism than the facts of the case. That's fine, but I don't think you actually have a clearer understanding of the situation than anyone else based on the evidence that we have so far.

Edited April 27, 2014 by JediMasterAlex

[Beniboybling]

The problem is he is taking the word "legends" too literally. There is only one continuity going forward and we have our answer already on that. Nothing from the old EU is in that continuity unless stated otherwise.

 

Q: Nice appearance in the vid...did any existing stories make the cut? Or all new material being created?

JH: Existing stories are there as a resource. But only new stories going forward are part of this "one universe."

But because everything from the EU has potential to be included in this continuity, it isn't degraded in anyway. You can still hold these "legends" to be part of continuity until stated otherwise. I most certainly do.

 

And I expect a lot of EU material will be incorporated, what they are really doing here is incorporating the EU into canon, not discarding it in favour of a new universe. The EU is responsible for the majority of the fabric of the Star Wars Universe, every paragraph of every book and every scene of every show or movie will refer to it in some way.

 

This is what is important, not the terms and the jargon but how they will actually proceed.

Right. The OP even acknowledges that Legends "could be left untouched, and even incoporated into the canon," himself clearly implying, correctly, that Legends are not part of the continuity. OP, your view seems to be based more upon speculation and optimism than the facts of the case. That's fine, but I don't think you actually have a clearer understanding of the situation than anyone else based on the evidence that we have so far.

Its a question of perspective, nothing more.

 

I'm trying to promote a healthy perspective, being an active participant in discussion about Star Wars.

 

Its important to remember that the universe is defined by the audience as well as the authors.

Edited April 27, 2014 by Beniboybling

[JediMasterAlex]

But because everything from the EU has potential to be included in this continuity, it isn't degraded in anyway. You can still hold these "legends" to be part of continuity until stated otherwise. I most certainly do.

 

And I expect a lot of EU material will be incorporated, what they are really doing here is incorporating the EU into canon, not discarding it in favour of a new universe. The EU is responsible for the majority of the fabric of the Star Wars Universe, every paragraph of every book and every scene of every show or movie will refer to it in some way.

 

But it is degraded. It has been demoted from part of the continuity to maybe part of the new continuity. And you can believe in the Legends if you want to, but I'm more concerned with how Lucasfilm actually classifies them.

 

I also don't think you have any evidence for your claim that "what they are really doing here is incorporating the EU into canon, not discarding it in favour of a new universe," because the main evidence that we now have points in the exact opposite direction, since they are deleting the post-rotj material, which makes up a majority of the EU.

[JediMasterAlex]

I'm trying to promote a healthy perspective, being an active participant in discussion about Star Wars.

 

Its important to remember that the universe is defined by the audience as well as the authors.

 

I have no idea how your perspective is more "healthy" than anyone else's.

 

Your thought about how the universe is defined is also only your opinion, not a fact like you stated it. The Star Wars Universe is given meaning by its audience, but my opinion is that only authors can define their own work.

[Beniboybling]

But it is degraded. It has been demoted from part of the continuity to maybe part of the new continuity. And you can believe in the Legends if you want to, but I'm more concerned with how Lucasfilm actually classifies them.

 

I also don't think you have any evidence for your claim that "what they are really doing here is incorporating the EU into canon, not discarding it in favour of a new universe," because the main evidence that we now have points in the exact opposite direction, since they are deleting the post-rotj material, which makes up a majority of the EU.

I suppose that is true, but its not N-Canon.

 

Honestly I wouldn't hold your breath, but yes.

 

While the universe that readers knew is changing, it is not being discarded. Creators of new Star Wars entertainment have full access to the rich content of the Expanded Universe. For example, elements of the EU are included in Star Wars Rebels. The Inquisitor, the Imperial Security Bureau, and Sienar Fleet Systems are story elements in the new animated series, and all these ideas find their origins in roleplaying game material published in the 1980s.

 

Maybe I'm being optimistic, but that seems to be a promise that they won't crap all over the EU. If future works treat the EU in the same way as TCW, which followed the same principles here, I wouldn't be too miffed at all.

 

Anyway I'm just trying to help people understand the definitions in this thread, I think we should save this discussion for when it becomes less theoretical and Disney/Lucasfilm actually put there plans into action.

[JediMasterAlex]

I think we should save this discussion for when it becomes less theoretical and Disney/Lucasfilm actually put there plans into action.

 

You're probably right, but it can be fun to speculate.

Edited April 27, 2014 by JediMasterAlex

[Beniboybling]

I have no idea how your perspective is more "healthy" than anyone else's.

 

Your thought about how the universe is defined is also only your opinion, not a fact like you stated it. The Star Wars Universe is given meaning by its audience, but my opinion is that only authors can define their own work.

I assume you are not familiar then with the cries of outrage, accusations Disney is evil, and plans to never read an EU book again from certain "fans" on these forums? There is also the future possibility that people will refuse to acknowledge characters, abilities etc. because the believe them to be falsified by this new policy.

 

It is a fact that the EU has not been rendered totally false. Its my opinion that in its limbo state we shouldn't treat or feel that the EU is any less worthy than it was before, it shouldn't effect how we feel about the universe.

 

On paper yes, but how people feel about these universes is out of the author's control.

[JediMasterAlex]

I assume you are not familiar then with the cries of outrage, accusations Disney is evil, and plans to never read an EU book again from certain "fans" on these forums? There is also the future possibility that people will refuse to acknowledge characters, abilities etc. because the believe them to be falsified by this new policy.

 

It is a fact that the EU has not been rendered totally false. Its my opinion that in its limbo state we shouldn't treat or feel that the EU is any less worthy than it was before, it shouldn't effect how we feel about the universe.

 

On paper yes, but how people feel about these universes is out of the author's control.

 

I really haven't seen much outrage. Obviously some people will overreact, but I daresay they are allowed to overreact if they want to. The Star Wars Universe is important to a lot of people. Why is getting angry about something you care about being changed a bad thing? Incidentally, I will never read an EU, or Legends book again, because I have no interest in material that didn't actually happen within the Star Wars Universe. It isn't the only appropriate way to react, but I can't see anything wrong with it.

 

I see your point about the "limbo state," and I concur that my feelings about Star Wars in general have changed very little so far, but I am afraid. However, in the short term, what might change a lot are my feelings toward this game. If things turn out how I think they will, and this game is rendered non-canon, I'm afraid that I won't enjoy playing it anymore.

Edited April 27, 2014 by JediMasterAlex

[Arilou_skiff]

There's a fundamental misunderstaniding here of what "canon" means. It does not mean "cannot be contradicted" (if that was the criteria, we wouldn't have the Bible we do have) but rather "authoritative", (the origin of the word seems to be "measuring stick")

 

It should be pointed out that the biblical canon (from where we get the word) actually has a term for "Kinda canon but not really", that word is deuterocanonical. (deuterocanon meaning "secondary canon")

 

Now, people are I in some respects missing the point of the New Star Wars Canon (NSWC?) what it does is largely change the status of these low-level canon works from "Canonical unless expressly contradicted by a higher level of canon." to "Not canonical unless expressly reproduced in a canon source." This *is* a significant departure, a significant cahnge. It reduces the EU from deuterocanonical status to expressly non-canonical (IE: The status of the Star Trek novels)

[JediMasterAlex]

There's a fundamental misunderstaniding here of what "canon" means. It does not mean "cannot be contradicted" (if that was the criteria, we wouldn't have the Bible we do have) but rather "authoritative", (the origin of the word seems to be "measuring stick")

 

It should be pointed out that the biblical canon (from where we get the word) actually has a term for "Kinda canon but not really", that word is deuterocanonical. (deuterocanon meaning "secondary canon")

 

Now, people are I in some respects missing the point of the New Star Wars Canon (NSWC?) what it does is largely change the status of these low-level canon works from "Canonical unless expressly contradicted by a higher level of canon." to "Not canonical unless expressly reproduced in a canon source." This *is* a significant departure, a significant cahnge. It reduces the EU from deuterocanonical status to expressly non-canonical (IE: The status of the Star Trek novels)

 

That is pretty much the point that I have been making in several threads, but thank you for providing additional support.

[Beniboybling]

There's a fundamental misunderstaniding here of what "canon" means. It does not mean "cannot be contradicted" (if that was the criteria, we wouldn't have the Bible we do have) but rather "authoritative", (the origin of the word seems to be "measuring stick")

That's not how I defined canon.

[DarthDymond]

Now, people are I in some respects missing the point of the New Star Wars Canon (NSWC?) what it does is largely change the status of these low-level canon works from "Canonical unless expressly contradicted by a higher level of canon." to "Not canonical unless expressly reproduced in a canon source." This *is* a significant departure, a significant cahnge.

Bingo (with respect to the novels, comics and games - since "not unless expressly reproduced" was the stance of the movies and Clone Wars show all along)

[Beniboybling]

Now, people are I in some respects missing the point of the New Star Wars Canon (NSWC?) what it does is largely change the status of these low-level canon works from "Canonical unless expressly contradicted by a higher level of canon." to "Not canonical unless expressly reproduced in a canon source." This *is* a significant departure, a significant cahnge. It reduces the EU from deuterocanonical status to expressly non-canonical (IE: The status of the Star Trek novels)

As long as you accept that "not-canonical" does not mean false then I am happy to agree with you here. However I see little difference between the two to be quite honest. Both effectively consist of maybes. Edited April 27, 2014 by Beniboybling

[BadCaneH]

I'm with you, Beniboybling. I think little will change. This whole anouncement was just a nice way to say: "Hey you beautiful people who love the Post-ROTJ EU, we may need to change some of that so that new movies have some actual new story to tell. Since the movies are untouchable canon, that will be wiped out, just in case."

[JediMasterAlex]

As long as you accept that "not-canonical" does not mean false then I am happy to agree with you here. However I see little difference between the two to be quite honest. Both effectively consist of maybes.

 

Within the Star Wars Universe, the events of the Old Republic era either happened or they didn't. If they are considered non-canon, they didn't happen. Even by your own opinion about what Legends mean, that makes sense. The vast majority of the Biblical and Arthurian legends didn't actually happen, even if some people for a long time thought that they did. You continue to argue that the Star Wars Legends might have happened according to the canon universe, but you still have no direct evidence to support that view. So don't blame others for having a different opinion.

Edited April 27, 2014 by JediMasterAlex

[Beniboybling]

Within the Star Wars Universe, the events of the Old Republic era either happened or they didn't. If they are considered non-canon, they didn't happen. Even by your own opinion about what Legends mean, that makes sense. The vast majority of the Biblical and Arthurian legends didn't actually happen, even if some people for a long time thought that they did. You continue to argue that the Star Wars Legends might have happened according to the canon universe, but you still have no direct evidence to support that view. So don't blame others for having a different opinion.

I thought we had reached a consensus on this matter, it seems not.

 

While the universe that readers knew is changing, it is not being discarded. Creators of new Star Wars entertainment have full access to the rich content of the Expanded Universe. For example, elements of the EU are included in Star Wars Rebels. The Inquisitor, the Imperial Security Bureau, and Sienar Fleet Systems are story elements in the new animated series, and all these ideas find their origins in roleplaying game material published in the 1980s.

 

This is all the evidence I need. Its effectively saying "don't worry we're not falsying the EU, this stuff might still have happened, see look the Imperial Security Bureau, Sienar Fleet Systems and the Inquisitors are all real!"

 

If something didn't happen, it didn't happen. A principle true in the real world and in Star Wars. Skippy the Droid for example will never be a 'real' droid (sorry Skippy.) Yet what this effectively means is that that which supposedly "didn't happen" might find itself published in a canon book and suddenly it did happen. But something can't not exist and then suddenly exist the next day. That makes no sense. Again the EU is in limbo, we can't say it didn't happen because we've been told that it may be used in the future, but we can't say it did happen because it might not be used.

 

The vast majority (some might say an exaggeration) of Biblical and Arthurian Legend didn't happen no, but that parallel will only work once Disney had injected new material into the EU and told us what is true and what isn't. Until they tell whether or not the events in the Old Republic era happened we have no basis for saying they did not.

 

Though I'm not sure why your accusing me of being antagonist to other people for not understanding this. But don't expect me to sit back and watch when I'm told the EU is about as valid as our friend Skippy.

[DarthDymond]

I appreciate the effort made here to try to define the parameters and clear up ambiguity in a discussion.

 

That said, call it "Canon" or call it "Continuity" but the fact is that there has been a significant shift in what new Star Wars novels, comics and games are going to be required to treat as having "actually happened" for purposes of their back-story.

 

When Crucible came out last year, it treated (and was required to treat) everything from the EU (that hadn't been directly contradicted) as if it actually happened, including as far back as Naga Sadow's Sith Empire.

 

Crucible was not able to treat the Great Hyperspace War as something that "might have happened" any more than it could say that about the Death Star being destroyed; going in, Crucible had to treat both those events as having actually happened. The same was true of ever other novel and comic that came out since Tales of the Jedi was published.

 

Going forward, future novels and comics will not be required to treat the Great Hyperspace War as something that actually happened. So whether you want to call that a change in Continuity or a change in Canon or go ahead and call it "shifting fact from fiction" if you really want, either way the rules have changed significantly for the novels and comics.

Edited April 27, 2014 by DarthDymond

[JediMasterAlex]

I thought we had reached a consensus on this matter, it seems not.

 

While the universe that readers knew is changing, it is not being discarded. Creators of new Star Wars entertainment have full access to the rich content of the Expanded Universe. For example, elements of the EU are included in Star Wars Rebels. The Inquisitor, the Imperial Security Bureau, and Sienar Fleet Systems are story elements in the new animated series, and all these ideas find their origins in roleplaying game material published in the 1980s.

 

This is all the evidence I need. Its effectively saying "don't worry we're not falsying the EU, this stuff might still have happened, see look the Imperial Security Bureau, Sienar Fleet Systems and the Inquisitors are all real!"

 

If something didn't happen, it didn't happen. A principle true in the real world and in Star Wars. Skippy the Droid for example will never be a 'real' droid (sorry Skippy.) Yet what this effectively means is that that which supposedly "didn't happen" might find itself published in a canon book and suddenly it did happen. But something can't not exist and then suddenly exist the next day. That makes no sense. Again the EU is in limbo, we can't say it didn't happen because we've been told that it may be used in the future, but we can't say it did happen because it might not be used.

 

The vast majority (some might say an exaggeration) of Biblical and Arthurian Legend didn't happen no, but that parallel will only work once Disney had injected new material into the EU and told us what is true and what isn't. Until they tell whether or not the events in the Old Republic era happened we have no basis for saying they did not.

 

Though I'm not sure why your accusing me of being antagonist to other people for not understanding this. But don't expect me to sit back and watch when I'm told the EU is about as valid as our friend Skippy.

 

Unfortunately, I think you have confirmed that the EU is as valid as Skippy. Yes, they might pick some elements of EU for future canon material. They might also have a dream and include stuff from that. What if I call in with a great idea and they use that? The EU has been relegated to a severely diminished status. Is it totally discarded? No, so they can say what they said. But I think it's silly to pretend that it has the same level of authority that it had a few days ago.

[JediMasterAlex]

I appreciate the effort made here to try to define the parameters and clear up ambiguity in a discussion.

 

That said, call it "Canon" or call it "Continuity" but the fact is that there has been a significant shift in what new Star Wars novels, comics and games are going to be required to treat as having "actually happened" for purposes of their back-story.

 

When Crucible came out last year, it treated (and was required to treat) everything from the EU (that hadn't been directly contradicted) as if it actually happened, including as far back as Naga Sadow's Sith Empire.

 

Crucible was not able to treat the Great Hyperspace War as something that "might have happened" any more than it could say that about the Death Star being destroyed; going in, Crucible had to treat both those events as having actually happened. The same was true of ever other novel and comic that came out since Tales of the Jedi was published.

 

Going forward, future novels and comics will not be required to treat the Great Hyperspace War as something that actually happened. So whether you want to call that a change in Continuity or a change in Canon or go ahead and call it "shifting fact from fiction" if you really want, either way the rules have changed significantly for the novels and comics.

 

Exactly. Thank you for this post, as this has been something I've struggled to articulate.

[Beniboybling]

Call it "Canon" or call it "Continuity" (I will continue to use the terms interchangeably as most people do, but you're free to draw a distinction in how you chose to use them) but the fact is that there has been a significant shift in what new Star Wars novels, comics and games are going to be required to treat as having "actually happened" for purposes of their back-story.

 

When Crucible came out last year, it treated (and was required to treat) everything from the EU (that hadn't been directly contradicted) as if it actually happened, including as far back as Naga Sadow's Sith Empire.

 

Crucible was not able to treat the Great Hyperspace War as something that "might have happened" any more than it could say that about the Death Star being destroyed; going in, Crucible had to treat both those events as having actually happened. The same was true of ever other novel and comic that came out since Tales of the Jedi was published.

 

Going forward, future novels and comics will not be required to treat the Great Hyperspace War as something that actually happened. So whether you want to call that a change in Continuity or a change in Canon or go ahead and call it "shifting fact from fiction" if you really want, either way the rules have changed significantly for the novels and comics.

The only change is that future works are now canon, and not beholden to the EU. But that doesn't change the fact that canon can and always has been able to overwrite the EU whenever it wants, now the club is just bigger.

 

Basically its just TCW policy being made broad.

 

EDIT: But anyway this debate is pointless, as long as we agree on the facts of the system your free to believe that the EU is going drastically change in the future, but I foresee just as few retcons as TCW committed.

Edited April 27, 2014 by Beniboybling

[DarthDymond]

The only change is that future works are now canon, and not beholden to the EU. But that doesn't change the fact that canon can and always has been able to overwrite the EU whenever it wants, now the club is just bigger.

 

EU going from powerless to powerless is no change at all.

Tales of the Jedi absolutely had "power" over Crucible, and Crucible was going to have "power" over Sword of the Jedi.

Tales of the Jedi does not have "power" over A New Dawn.

 

That is the change.

 

Just because the old EU didn't have power over the Movies or Clone Wars does not mean it was powerless.

 

EDIT: Line I was responding to was edited out by the time I posted, so I'll just give my own overarching perspective instead:

 

I am fully on-board with the change Disney/LucasArts made here, because it leaves open (and even facilitates) the possibility that they may produce new "Legends" line works eventually. Doing so is definitely not their plan right now, but an established Imprint gives them an easy way to do it if they want.

 

I was already resigned to losing the post-RotJ era, including the Legacy era - that was a foregone conclusion the instant the new Movies were announced. From that moment it was inevitable that the Star Wars Saga I was already a fan of was going to end, and a different Saga was going to be created. The only question was whether the old EU would be given its own identity/universe or just quietly forgotten about and swept aside.

 

I have high hopes for the upcoming Saga and the unified Canon it will have. I agree that the "broad strokes" of the Old Republic Era are likely to be adopted by the New Canon, but honestly I'm fine with that going either way as long as the New Canon stories are good. (If they had taken the "just forget and sweep aside the post-RotJ stuff" approach instead of creating "Legends" I would have definitely hoped for the Old Republic to be declared part of the official Canon, as some small consolation.)

 

I am a fan of Star Wars, with hopes of becoming a big fan of it as the New Canon develops.

I am a big fan of Star Wars: Legends, with hopes (though not necessarily the expectation) that the line continues someday.

Edited April 27, 2014 by DarthDymond