When Truth and Legends Mingle: The Old EU and the Future of SW

[StarSquirrel]

Well, this certainly complicates things in the short term...

 

As far as the argument currently being had I side with Beni. Anything in the "Legends" continuity seems to be as much cannon as the new stuff, assuming no contradictions. That's how it was done in the beginnings of the EU, it makes sense to do it now. It really seems that they're removing the G-canon, C-canon, T-canon etc... levels and replacing them with this new system.

 

In the short term though, fans of different persuasions will be rioting in the streets and ripping people's heads off in blind fits of rage as they try to sort out what all this means for canon and until the new films come out and the New cannon gets some meat to it there will be a hell of a lot of questions. Honestly, it'd be nice if Leland Chee and Kathleen Kennedy sat down (perhaps even with Lucas present) and discussed with some knowledgeable fans about how the new canon system would work in a bit more detail and shared the conversation with everyone. It won't happen, but these press releases are killing us slowly...

Edited April 27, 2014 by StarSquirrel

[Ghostbuddy]

But why exactly am I confused?

 

I don't know really...

 

I'm going to assume you mean to ask me; "How am I confused?". See you're not the only one who can be pedantic! Well obviously I mean to say you are confused, in so far as your understanding, at least as you outlined it above, contradicts my understanding, as I outlined above. I think that's kind of obvious, but what ever.

 

But anyway, your wrong, we are not dealing with an alternate universe here. We are dealing with a singular, cohesive universe - a vision Lucasfilm is clearly sticking to - with varying levels of authenticity. Quite different

 

Not really. The EU was painstakingly crafted by legions of authors, to ensure internal continuity, ergo the EU has a canon by definition. I think at least we agree here. According to various comments from the Lucas Film story group, going back over a year now, the only things that are being considered canon are the movies, TCW's, and all future media. This is what you apparently don't know, and it's this ignorance that's prevented you from understanding half of the comments on this thread.

 

So if the EU has an internally consistent canon, but it's not a part of the new star wars canon, we have two separate canons. Ergo, the EU or "Legends" is essentially an alternate universe akin to what Marvel has done. This isn't the first alternate universe, "The Star Wars" follows a story relatively identical to original screenplay for A New hope, which is significantly different, this is but one example, and i'm sure this will continue. The difference of course being that the EU, or what I will describe as the legends verse, or the Golden Age star wars universe, rivals the size of the core universe. They may not expand the EU / Legends verse going forward, but that doesn't change the fact that this is essentially what it is. The simplest way to describe the situation is to say they've created a new canon, and isolated it from the EU. The EU still exists, it just exists in a complete bubble.

 

 

Just because its legend doesn't mean it didn't happen.

 

No, it means it didn't happen IN THE NEW CANON, unless it otherwise reoccurs or is explicitly described in the canon materials of the story group approved canon. I.e So far the movies, and The Clone Wars. This, and this alone, represents the canon, until new media comes out. This has explicitly been stated dozens of times, by the story group.

 

Like I mentioned in my first comment, the Lucas story group was referenced in the galactic star fighter expansion, and EA has a ten year deal with Disney, I wouldn't be surprised if EA moves to incorporate the entire back catalog of old republic era games into the new canon, perhaps through a anniversary release of Kotor 1&2. I also wouldn't be surprised if EU fans working on Star Wars, made a concerted effort to incorporate details, whole events, and stories, particularly if they don't contradict with their long term plans.

 

The fact however is they're not holding ANY WRITER accountable to what was established in the EU, no one, because it's simply not canon in any sense of the word any more. Not even in the hierarchical sense it used to be considered canon. No one even has to read so much as a dossier on EU stories, characters, places, or events. It's something writers are free to draw inspiration from, and I know they will but no one is restricted by it at all, they don't even have to be exposed to it if they don't want to. Where as before Lucas was exclusively immune to the EU, but he had a role in governing some facts about the EU, and was at least inevitably exposed to it as a part of his job.

 

I will again reiterate that I think this is over all a good thing, and that most of the good stuff will get a second life anyways. This will allow better long term story arc planning across multimedia projects, a canon that has a higher level of stability, a canon that pays higher dividends to people who pay attention, and it will enforce Q&A standards that Lucas Film couldn't enforce on the EU, particularly in the first twenty or so years. I think the closest parallel is the end of one Comic book age, and the start of a new one like in the case of Marvel. Writers will be reinvigorated with their new creative freedom, most of the good ideas and characters will find their way back in, usually with some kind of twist, and it will allow Star wars to stay with the times. My issue is merely in the description of the situation, namely that you don't understand what is and isn't canon today , and the other guy doesn't understand what used to be canon.

 

I don't understand how I can debate two people who are wrong in precisely opposite ways. You two should debate each other directly until you can reconcile your opposing beliefs.

Edited April 27, 2014 by Ghostbuddy

[marcelo_sdk]

As I said in other topic, the only EU I think it'll be totally thrown to the trash is post-RotJ and Dark Times, since they encompass the exact time that the movies and Rebels will transpire. This announcement, from my point of view, is more directed to those parts of EU, especially post-RotJ, since it's lore is very extense and has made a lot of fans. Perhaps because I'm not a fan of most of the stories made about that time period, things have changed nothing on my pont of view. The whole point abount Legends, I think, is to preserve those stories.

[StarSquirrel]

Not really. The EU was painstakingly crafted by legions of authors, to ensure internal continuity, ergo the EU has a canon by definition. I think at least we agree here. According to various comments from the Lucas Film story group, going back over a year now, the only things that are being considered canon are the movies, TCW's, and all future media. This is what you apparently don't know, and it's this ignorance that's prevented you from understanding half of the comments on this thread.

 

No, it means it didn't happen IN THE NEW CANON, unless it otherwise reoccurs or is explicitly described in the canon materials of the story group approved canon. I.e So far the movies, and The Clone Wars. This, and this alone, represents the canon, until new media comes out. This has explicitly been stated dozens of times, by the story group.

 

I don't understand how I can debate two people who are wrong in precisely opposite ways. You two should debate each other directly until you can reconcile your opposing beliefs.

 

I predict a couple years from now, we'll be seeing new fandom wars between the "Canon-only" crowd and the "pro-Legends" crowd, not all that unlike the real world debates we see between archaeologists and theologians, or between Catholics and "Bible-only" Christians; the "Canonists" with their "It's only true if it's canonized" philosophy and the "Legendist" with their "It's true unless proven false" philosophy.

 

Though instead of a couple of years, I purpose it has already begun...

 

Beni, the Legendist

you sir, the Canonist

 

Now... Fight!

Edited April 27, 2014 by StarSquirrel

[Ghostbuddy]

 

As far as the argument currently being had I side with Beni. Anything in the "Legends" continuity seems to be as much cannon as the new stuff, assuming no contradictions. That's how it was done in the beginnings of the EU, it makes sense to do it now. It really seems that they're removing the G-canon, C-canon, T-canon etc... levels and replacing them with this new system.

 

The difference is that hierarchy applied to Lucas Film's internal canon. They held writers to this continuity religiously, everyone but Lucas and his direct collaborators was held to this standard. Now the story group, the people responsible for ensuring continuity, are only considering the six films and TCW's canon. They're only enforcing that content, and new material produced going forward.

 

https://24.media.tumblr.com/39a7931d78369bf09a76f4443ff0d7ab/tumblr_mxtvicoUdn1sh5qqjo2_1280.png

 

There are dozens of quotes identical to, or in some variation of, that statement from the story group since 2012. There's no controversy to be had, the EU is not a part of The Lucas Story groups multi-media canon, it just isn't. People are welcome to draw inspiration from it, but no one is restricted by it. It doesn't matter if they're writing a script for a movie, show, game a new novel or a new comic book. The EU simply isn't canon. It used to be canon in a hierarchical sense, and was strictly applied to everything other than things Lucas had a heavy hand in, now it strictly applies to exactly nothing.

 

Though instead of a couple of years, I purpose it has already begun...

 

I took issue with that parallel, until I realized I was the Archaeologist and he was the theologian.

 

For me, the telling details is in how Lucas used to operate, namely enforcing continuity between EU projects, and how it is currently operating, namely not enforcing continuity between new multimedia projects and the EU. In particular, from what I understand writers regularly had to submit drafts to Lucas film, and have them evaluated to maintain consistency with the rest of the EU. With many projects going through dozens of drafts to maintain continuity. Now those writers won't be forced to maintain continuity with the EU, or to even learn about the EU. Basically everyone now has the same independence from EU continuity that Lucas had, only they won't necessarily know anything about the EU, where as Lucas did. It's inevitable in my eyes that a decent chunk is going to get overwritten. I'm also sure fans will incorporate details, and take inspiration from the EU, and i'm sure we'll see whole chunks incorporated, but this will have far reaching consequences.

Edited April 27, 2014 by Ghostbuddy

[StarSquirrel]

The difference is that hierarchy applied to Lucas Film's internal canon. They held writers to this continuity religiously, everyone but Lucas was held to this standard. Now the story group, the people responsible for ensuring continuity, are only considering the six films and TCW's canon. They're only enforcing that content, and new material produced going forward.

 

https://24.media.tumblr.com/39a7931d78369bf09a76f4443ff0d7ab/tumblr_mxtvicoUdn1sh5qqjo2_1280.png

 

There are dozens of quotes identical to, or in some variation of, that statement. There's no controversy to be had, the EU is not a part of The Lucas Story groups multi-media canon, it just isn't. People are welcome to draw inspiration from it, but no one is restricted by it. It doesn't matter if they're writing a script for a movie or show, or a new novel. The EU simply isn't canon.

 

Honestly the other guy i'm debating with at least has a leg to stand on, and there is a semantic side to the debate, Beni is just wrong.

 

You sir, don't seem to understand anything at all about the discussion you are engaged in here... All of us here (or at least Beni and I it appears) understands that for the entire existence of the EU, the movies and TV series has always been Lucasfilm's official canon regardless of anything. Hence the canon levels. Lucasfilms acknowledges the existence of extra EU material occasionally, but never openly considers it a part of their gospel canon but merely as space fillers and place holders.

 

C-canon has always been rewritable but still canon. Always. and now it has a new name, Legends. As is, the new (I call it D-canon) non-film Eu under Disney will occupy a level on par with, or slightly below T-canon and above C-canon. At that point, one can disregard the "Legends" Eu if they'd like, but that doesn't make it less a part of the continuity except to the fan. If a Legends story isn't directly retconned or thoroughly torn apart by inconsistencies (as the Post-RotJ Eu will most certainly be) then it still occupies c-canon, now retitled Legends, status and can be considered an accurate representation of the Star Wars continuity until its contents are nullified by retcons and replaced.

 

So imagine it more like

G-canon (films, new films etc...) -This tells the main stories of the Star Wars Universe

 

T-canon and/or D-canon (shows and new canon published under Disney's control) -Tells the official history of the Star Wars universe in some of the gaps left in the G-canon

 

C-canon/Legends (still subject to the above as it always was) -Fills in the smaller details and provides tons of extra description etc... As the poster I quoted in another post put it: Legends, things that have a historical basis but also possess elements that can't be thoroughly proven and therefore are legends that individuals must determine for themselves if they are correct.

 

Then you have the N-canon which will consist of all the retconned stories. Essentially though, Disney is merely adding a new level of canon above the C-canon, not simply retconning the entire C-canon. As far as I knew, Lucasfilms never even used the C-canon designation, so it makes sense they'd give it their own new title like "Legends".

Edited April 27, 2014 by StarSquirrel

[StarSquirrel]

For me, the telling details is in how Lucas used to operate, namely enforcing continuity between EU projects, and how it is currently operating, namely not enforcing continuity between new multimedia projects and the EU. In particular, from what I understand writers regularly had to submit drafts to Lucas film, and have them evaluated to maintain consistency with the rest of the EU. With many projects going through dozens of drafts to maintain continuity. Now those writers won't be forced to maintain continuity with the EU, or to even learn about the EU. It's inevitable in my eyes that a decent chunk is going to get overwritten. I'm also sure fans will incorporate details, and take inspiration from the EU, and i'm sure we'll see whole chunks incorporated, but this will have far reaching consequences, inevitably.

 

We're on the same page here, as a matter of fact I agree entirely with what you are saying. I actively acknowledge what you're referencing in the bolded section as a distinct possibility. The thing I take issue with is the idea that because it can be overwritten it is already non-cannon. Truth is, if G-canon wants to override the D-canon, it can (though yeah it might not make a ton of sense to) but essentially there is the potential for retcon, that doesn't mean it is already retconned.

Edited April 27, 2014 by StarSquirrel

[Sanguiluna]

Be careful how you state this. Remember, the EU has never been considered "mandatory" canon; it was up to the individual to accept it or not. If one fan chose to view only the films as canon, he/she wasn't wrong. If another fan chose to view the films and EU as canon, he/she wasn't wrong either. The only canon fans were required to respect were the films and TV show.

 

The core of this hasn't changed. The only difference is that for the first time ever, we now have novels that are considered mandatory canon along with the films, which fans are required to accept, while the old EU material, now called "Legends" retain their exact same level of canonicity; if you want to accept them, that's cool. If you don't accept them, that's cool too.

[StarSquirrel]

The core of this hasn't changed. The only difference is that for the first time ever, we now have novels that are considered mandatory canon along with the films

 

You be careful. This statement right here is a joke, the films (heck anything on screen) is not in any way beholden to the new EU. If I chose to consider only the film canon and ignored the New Canon I would not be wrong. Films trump everything

 

Like I said, new level of canon. Also I never said anyone had to consider the EU canon at all, I merely said it hadn't been retconned, but occupied a lower tier of canon now. The point isn't what people have to accept, but if they chose to consider the "Legends" as canon (assuming it hasn't been retconned yet) they too would not be wrong.

[Girdeux]

Q: Nice appearance in the vid...did any existing stories make the cut? Or all new material being created?

JH: Existing stories are there as a resource. But only new stories going forward are part of this "one universe."

 

Pretty much explains it. The guys on wookiepedia are in agreeance that all the old eu is non canon and are discussing how they should handle everything. Gonna be a tough job for them.

[marcelo_sdk]

Q: Nice appearance in the vid...did any existing stories make the cut? Or all new material being created?

JH: Existing stories are there as a resource. But only new stories going forward are part of this "one universe."

 

Pretty much explains it. The guys on wookiepedia are in agreeance that all the old eu is non canon and are discussing how they should handle everything. Gonna be a tough job for them.

 

Again this. For the 1000th time, that's how it's always been, for Lucas, the EU were there, but they weren't part of his vision of the SW universe. About Wookiee, know nothing about that.

[Sanguiluna]

You be careful. This statement right here is a joke, the films (heck anything on screen) is not in any way beholden to the new EU. If I chose to consider only the film canon and ignored the New Canon I would not be wrong. Films trump everything

 

Like I said, new level of canon. Also I never said anyone had to consider the EU canon at all, I merely said it hadn't been retconned, but occupied a lower tier of canon now. The point isn't what people have to accept, but if they chose to consider the "Legends" as canon (assuming it hasn't been retconned yet) they too would not be wrong.

 

"The future Star Wars novels from Disney Publishing Worldwide and Del Rey Books will now be part of the official Star Wars canon as reflected on upcoming TV and movie screens."

"We're extremely proud of the hundreds of amazing Star Wars books we've published at Del Rey," said Scott Shannon, SVP, publisher, Del Rey and Digital Content, "And now we're excited to finally be able to call our upcoming novels true canon -- a single, cohesive Star Wars storyline -- all while keeping the amazing backlist of Star Wars Legends content in print."

-- Quoted from this article on starwars.com

 

Therein lies the fundamental difference between the canon novels and the Legends: Legends are optional, but disregarding the four upcoming novels is as much mistaken as disregarding the upcoming trilogy.

Edited April 27, 2014 by Sanguiluna