New Scouts Secondary Weapons Are Garbage

[tunewalker]

EMP is good at locking people's engine components down so they can't escape and for a second/third missile break and temporary immunity from lock-ons.

 

It's pretty crap against bombers.

 

Ya.... if you were going to hit them with an EMP and have it land just so missiles could land you either need to be in chat to let allies know and have them flying something that can take advantage of that, or you would be better off hitting them with a missile that would just have killed them instead.

[Zharik]

EMP is fantastic for rooting bombers out of satellite camping.

 

http://aisthesis.shivtr.com/gallery_images/696528

This is a tier 2 EMP Missile vs 2 bombers, 3 turrets and a scout. 2839 damage, 6 destroyed targets (some were hit by my other EMP Missile earlier) and turrets disabled for 15 seconds... which is long enough to kill all 3 with quads.

 

Use tactics when deploying these weapons! In WWII, torpedo bombers (fighters with 1 torpedo under their belly) did not dogfight, they tried to sink enemy ships. You are trying to dogfight with a missile not designed for dogfighting!

[Nemarus]

http://aisthesis.shivtr.com/gallery_images/696528

This is a tier 2 EMP Missile vs 2 bombers, 3 turrets and a scout. 2839 damage, 6 destroyed targets (some were hit by my other EMP Missile earlier) and turrets disabled for 15 seconds... which is long enough to kill all 3 with quads.

 

Use tactics when deploying these weapons! In WWII, torpedo bombers (fighters with 1 torpedo under their belly) did not dogfight, they tried to sink enemy ships. You are trying to dogfight with a missile not designed for dogfighting!

 

Bombers who waste time building big minefields are stupid anyway, given how long it takes to build field and how little time it takes for it to be destroyed.

 

Regardless, even by destroying their mines, you didn't "root out" either Bomber. If they were Minelayers, they had new Seismics or Seekers out in 0-15 seconds, depending on the state of their Secondary cooldown. And they'll have new System Mines out in exactly 16 seconds. Unless you and your team can quickly coordinate to get sustained LOS on at least one Bomber and destroy it in 15 seconds, nothing meaningful happens. And getting that sustained LOS is hard .

 

Meanwhile all the Bombers have to do is orbit the satellite close and fast for 15 seconds and then it's like you never fired the missile at all.

 

You are right in that EMP Missile is absolutely crucial for destroying turrets if you don't have Armor Piercing weaponry. But considering every variant of Strike and Scout EXCEPT for the Command variants has easy access to Armor Piercing (Rocket Pods, BLC's, HLC's), that's hardly a check in the Command variants' favor.

 

In other words, the only person who really needs EMP Missile help in destroying turrets is you--your allies can 3-shot them with minimal laser cost and superficial shield damage.

Edited April 22, 2014 by Nemarus

[Pilgrim_Grey]

http://aisthesis.shivtr.com/gallery_images/696528

This is a tier 2 EMP Missile vs 2 bombers, 3 turrets and a scout. 2839 damage, 6 destroyed targets (some were hit by my other EMP Missile earlier) and turrets disabled for 15 seconds... which is long enough to kill all 3 with quads.

 

Use tactics when deploying these weapons! In WWII, torpedo bombers (fighters with 1 torpedo under their belly) did not dogfight, they tried to sink enemy ships. You are trying to dogfight with a missile not designed for dogfighting!

 

Hey, that's great. How'd it go after that point when they all responded and swarmed on the strike and dropped more mines while the EMP missile was reloading (and the stuff that was out of range of the blast was able to trigger on you)? If that all didn't happen, they weren't very good.

 

Don't get me wrong, EMP is nice to help clear a satellite (and that screenie could have been the start of a good, coordinated assault on a satellite), but it rarely clears the whole thing and even when it does, they just throw out more mines and drones a few seconds later. I decided to pick EMP up on my Tier 3 scout since the other options just are frustrating going into a defended satellite, but it doesn't change the fact that EMP is not a great counter to bombers on a satellite. If you want a satellite cleared, bring in a gunship with Ion aoe. I've been forced to do it lately since everyone wants to fly a bomber as of late and people aren't flying gunships enough (or smartly enough).

[Gavin_Kelvar]

Hey, that's great. How'd it go after that point when they all responded and swarmed on the strike and dropped more mines while the EMP missile was reloading (and the stuff that was out of range of the blast was able to trigger on you)? If that all didn't happen, they weren't very good.

 

Don't get me wrong, EMP is nice to help clear a satellite (and that screenie could have been the start of a good, coordinated assault on a satellite), but it rarely clears the whole thing and even when it does, they just throw out more mines and drones a few seconds later. I decided to pick EMP up on my Tier 3 scout since the other options just are frustrating going into a defended satellite, but it doesn't change the fact that EMP is not a great counter to bombers on a satellite. If you want a satellite cleared, bring in a gunship with Ion aoe. I've been forced to do it lately since everyone wants to fly a bomber as of late and people aren't flying gunships enough (or smartly enough).

 

you also have the problem that you don't have a regular missile that can punch through the bomber's shields and armor so while you can clear the minefield you may lack the necessary tools to follow up and kill the bomber.

[Zharik]

Bombers who waste time building big minefields are stupid anyway, given how long it takes to build field and how little time it takes for it to be destroyed.

 

Regardless, even by destroying their mines, you didn't "root out" either Bomber. If they were Minelayers, they had new Seismics or Seekers out in 0-15 seconds, depending on the state of their Secondary cooldown. And they'll have new System Mines out in exactly 16 seconds. Unless you and your team can quickly coordinate to get sustained LOS on at least one Bomber and destroy it in 15 seconds, nothing meaningful happens. And getting that sustained LOS is hard .

 

Meanwhile all the Bombers have to do is orbit the satellite close and fast for 15 seconds and then it's like you never fired the missile at all.

 

You are right in that EMP Missile is absolutely crucial for destroying turrets if you don't have Armor Piercing weaponry. But considering every variant of Strike and Scout EXCEPT for the Command variants has easy access to Armor Piercing (Rocket Pods, BLC's, HLC's), that's hardly a check in the Command variants' favor.

 

In other words, the only person who really needs EMP Missile help in destroying turrets is you--your allies can 3-shot them with minimal laser cost and superficial shield damage.

 

Did you count the number of things I hit with one attack? Would any other missile do as well attacking a bomber infested location (of which 60% of the game is based on, mind you)? And am i really expected to solo 3 ships?

 

And you wonder why I called you narrow minded...

SMH

 

This was a comparison of EMP Missiles vs... well other missiles/torps, right?

[Zharik]

Hey, that's great. How'd it go after that point when they all responded and swarmed on the strike and dropped more mines while the EMP missile was reloading (and the stuff that was out of range of the blast was able to trigger on you)? If that all didn't happen, they weren't very good.

 

Don't get me wrong, EMP is nice to help clear a satellite (and that screenie could have been the start of a good, coordinated assault on a satellite), but it rarely clears the whole thing and even when it does, they just throw out more mines and drones a few seconds later. I decided to pick EMP up on my Tier 3 scout since the other options just are frustrating going into a defended satellite, but it doesn't change the fact that EMP is not a great counter to bombers on a satellite. If you want a satellite cleared, bring in a gunship with Ion aoe. I've been forced to do it lately since everyone wants to fly a bomber as of late and people aren't flying gunships enough (or smartly enough).

 

Gunships are going to be better vs bombers, because bombers are slow and have no evasion. And bombers have no viable chance against gunships without LOS, which the Ion AOE takes care of (which I think needs fixed).

 

To answer your question, I was alone there (my team was not very experienced) and I was honestly trying to occupy as many of them as possible. I died twice but kept them there for several minutes, using terrain (in space, I know right?) and killed 5 turrets, iirc. Granted this only matters if 7 vs 5 elsewhere we win, which we did not, but that was hardly a problem with my ship build...

Edited April 22, 2014 by Zharik

[Gerfaut]

Looking at your screenshot, it appears that they stealth-fixed the damage bug on EMP missile. I flew a Pike and Quell with T5 EMP missile almost every night between 2.6 and 2.7 (approximately 200 games total) and never hit any target for more than 180 with it, even though the tooltip indicated that I should have been hitting for 362. At T2 it would be 335, which is what you hit the turrets for (the T3 upgrade increases damage by 8%).

 

There is still something strange going on though. EMP missile damage is supposed to ignore armor and shields, which means that it should not be affected by any type of damage reduction. Yet some of your targets are being hit for values other than 335. I assume that 150 represents the health of the mines. The drone and hyperspace beacon probably account for the 265 and 300, which likely was the amount of health they had left when you hit them, since your EMP missile destroyed them. This would mean that the 4th 335 hit and the 2 hits for 167 were on the scout and the 2 bombers (you can actually see that there are ships at those locations on the screenshot). It is strange that the bombers would be hit for half of what the scout was hit for, since damage reduction is not supposed to have any impact on the damage of this missile.

 

It is also interesting that the maximum damage value is the same for primary and secondary targets (335 in your case). I always assumed that the 180 I was seeing meant that secondary targets were meant to take half the damage of the primary target and that somehow the primary target was bugged and also took half damage. But it looks like every target within the blast radius is supposed to take full damage. It also looks like there is still some kind of bug present since some secondary targets took half damage (167), while other secondary targets took full damage (335).

Edited April 22, 2014 by Gerfaut

[Nemarus]

Did you count the number of things I hit with one attack? Would any other missile do as well attacking a bomber infested location (of which 60% of the game is based on, mind you)? And am i really expected to solo 3 ships?

 

And you wonder why I called you narrow minded...

SMH

 

This was a comparison of EMP Missiles vs... well other missiles/torps, right?

 

No, it was a comparison of EMP Missile vs. what it needs to be to actually perform the role it was intended for. Just because the EMP Missile might be "the best" a command variant has access to doesn't mean it's not garbage.

 

And even so a PT will at least take a a third to a fourth of a Bomber's health. A Thermite Torpedo will very heavily damage its hull or leave debuffs its shields with bleedthrough.

[TheGreatSatan]

Ya.... if you were going to hit them with an EMP and have it land just so missiles could land you either need to be in chat to let allies know and have them flying something that can take advantage of that, or you would be better off hitting them with a missile that would just have killed them instead.

 

Or I've closed in, popped cooldowns and want to blow them up in a couple seconds without them being able to barrel roll away, as a certain type of railgun-having ship is wont to do. This tactic is especially good against gunship pilots who either don't know how or refuse to dogfight in a gunship, as it gives you more than enough time to roast them alive.

 

Or, if I *am* trying to lock a missile on, I can get the lock, get close and then activate the pulse before firing it, as many players will wait until the missile is actually in flight to activate their role/dive/snap turn/etc.

 

I've even used it to escape before. In team death matches I frequently have 2-4 people chasing me, and if I'm low on cooldowns or just need some breathing room, I can lure them all close in by flying very close to an object, then EMP and run. Without barrel roll they won't be able to catch me before I've put quite a bit of distance between us.

 

And you don't need chat to know if your allies are trying to get missile lock on something. Are they following and attacking a ship? Yes? Are they firing rocket pods? No? Then they're almost certainly trying to get a lock.

Edited April 23, 2014 by TheGreatSatan

[Armonddd]

Did you count the number of things I hit with one attack? Would any other missile do as well attacking a bomber infested location (of which 60% of the game is based on, mind you)? And am i really expected to solo 3 ships?

 

In fairness, you were using it in basically the ideal situation -- against numerous targets that were unaware of you.

[tunewalker]

Or I've closed in, popped cooldowns and want to blow them up in a couple seconds without them being able to barrel roll away, as a certain type of railgun-having ship is wont to do. This tactic is especially good against gunship pilots who either don't know how or refuse to dogfight in a gunship, as it gives you more than enough time to roast them alive.

 

Or, if I *am* trying to lock a missile on, I can get the lock, get close and then activate the pulse before firing it, as many players will wait until the missile is actually in flight to activate their role/dive/snap turn/etc.

 

I've even used it to escape before. In team death matches I frequently have 2-4 people chasing me, and if I'm low on cooldowns or just need some breathing room, I can lure them all close in by flying very close to an object, then EMP and run. Without barrel roll they won't be able to catch me before I've put quite a bit of distance between us.

 

And you don't need chat to know if your allies are trying to get missile lock on something. Are they following and attacking a ship? Yes? Are they firing rocket pods? No? Then they're almost certainly trying to get a lock.

 

You are talking EMP PULSE.... not EMP Missile. This is the 3rd scout it doesnt have EMP pulse. They are talking EMP missile.... take 3 seconds to lock on and is as dodgeable and gives just as much warning as any other Missile. It does 180 damage and then you MIGHT disable their engines along with their number 1 ability. This missile could be substituted for either Ion missile or Thermite torp. The ion disabling shields allowing lasers to finish them off or. Thermite burning through the hull or just plain doing massive damage, all of which are equally dodgeable, and unless you successfully landed the missile on the Gunship of which you speak AND an ally was on him within 15 seconds (barrel roll CD is 20 seconds BTW and it wouldnt disable distortion missile lock if it disables engines meaning that he if you landed the missile to begin with he likely had 10 seconds left of vulnerability any way so you only extended it 5 seconds and if he is any good he is already heading to cover.) you would have better off with any other missile choice.

Edited April 23, 2014 by tunewalker

[Zharik]

In fairness, you were using it in basically the ideal situation -- against numerous targets that were unaware of you.

 

Actually the scout was aware as he was trying to lock on to me, which is why I use the antennae for cover and strafed to break his lock.

 

But yes, I was in fact trying to illustrate what its ideal situation is. (shooting at a bomber in the middle of a furball is ideal too, in TDM) I was trying to illustrate that using it against a scout in a 1 v 1 is a waste of potential and not what it was designed for, that's all.

[Zharik]

They are talking EMP missile.... take 3 seconds to lock on and is as dodgeable and gives just as much warning as any other Missile. It does 180 damage and then you MIGHT disable their engines along with their number 1 ability.

 

If you note, I targeted a turret... turrets, drones, mines cannot do anything to break a lock and a bomber can't do much (LOS or suddenly boost to break manually) so everyone in the blast radius gets hit.

 

Tactics need to adjust to the weapon's strengths. The weapons do not need adjusted to your play style.

 

Ion Missile is still garbage though.

[-Streven-]

Yeah but...EMP looks so cool when it hits...

[tunewalker]

If you note, I targeted a turret... turrets, drones, mines cannot do anything to break a lock and a bomber can't do much (LOS or suddenly boost to break manually) so everyone in the blast radius gets hit.

 

Tactics need to adjust to the weapon's strengths. The weapons do not need adjusted to your play style.

 

Ion Missile is still garbage though.

 

yes that works, but of course you dont have turrets in TDM, if people arent playing bombers in TDM then every one has a maneuver. Its a niche weapon for a very niche situation, that needs to be played perfectly to be viable, and can be done better on a clarion then on a Spearpoint.

[Pilgrim_Grey]

If you note, I targeted a turret... turrets, drones, mines cannot do anything to break a lock and a bomber can't do much (LOS or suddenly boost to break manually) so everyone in the blast radius gets hit.

 

Tactics need to adjust to the weapon's strengths. The weapons do not need adjusted to your play style.

 

Ion Missile is still garbage though.

 

You can adjust your tactics to EMP missile's strengths as much as you want, but it's still not going to make it great at what it's supposed to do. I've settled on it for my Type 3 scout at the moment, but that's more because ion and thermite don't really help it do what it needs to do, from my experience (especially if you're going to fly it in domination, which the support ships are generally better at).

[Zharik]

yes that works, but of course you dont have turrets in TDM, if people arent playing bombers in TDM then every one has a maneuver. Its a niche weapon for a very niche situation, that needs to be played perfectly to be viable, and can be done better on a clarion then on a Spearpoint.

 

Very niche?

 

60% of the matches involve capturing satellites?!? Hardly niche and well worth having 1 of your 5 possible ships have the ability to pry the control of a satellite from a bomber or 3.

 

I generally fly another ship in TDM.

[Pilgrim_Grey]

Very niche?

 

60% of the matches involve capturing satellites?!? Hardly niche and well worth having 1 of your 5 possible ships have the ability to pry the control of a satellite from a bomber or 3.

 

I generally fly another ship in TDM.

 

You're not always attacking a satellite even in domination, and as has been pointed out more than once, EMP isn't all that great at what it's supposed to do. It's kind of a winner on the new command fighters, but that's because the command fighters seem meant to be used in domination more than deathmatch, and the current meta of the game is slap a bunch of bombers on a satellite, so ion and thermite are of even more limited use there. Protons give the strike another choice, but those aren't exactly an all around missile, either. And they can help on a bomber to some extent, but if they're at full health, an EMP is probably going to help you for longer.