Regeneration vs. power pool

[jmjeffw]

I remember someone commenting about how regeneration components are generally preferable to ones that give you a bigger overall pool, but I was curious as to why that is. Can someone give a rundown of the pros and cons of using either? Thanks.

[Armonddd]

Pros of increased pool size: You can boost or fire for slightly longer.

 

Pros of increased regen: You can get back into the action faster after draining your pool. Also, since pools regen slightly while boosting or firing, you can boost or fire for slightly longer.

 

I have never been in a situation where I actually needed increased blaster pool in order to land a kill (exception: killing sprees), but I have often been in situations where I take my pool down to 25% (or less) before boosting away from danger. Increased regeneration helps in those situations, if only somewhat.

 

I always want more engine pool, but if I have to choose between more pool or more regen, I'll take the regen for two reasons. First, I rarely boost while firing blasters, which gives time for regen to kick in; second, if I'm hit by ion weaponry, regen is slightly more likely to save me than increased pool.

 

I would never take a power pool magazine or thrusters over regeneration magazine or thrusters, but I could see taking Blizz/C2-N2 over 2V-R8/Yuun.

[Loc_n_lol]

For weapons, you don't usually empty your entire pool in one go. For intermittent use, regen makes more sense. Also weapon power regenerates while firing, albeit slowly.

 

For shields though, you can't regen while you're dead. Also damage tends to come in bursts, so stacking extra shield power pool is safer. If you can survive the intial onslaught, it doesn't really matter how long your shields take to come back to full, it's not going to change the outcome of the fight.

 

For engines: screw regen and pool, speed is all that matters.

[Armonddd]

For engines: screw regen and pool, speed is all that matters.

 

I'll take +320% speed when I need it over +10% speed when it might make me overshoot.

[Delta_V]

I'll take +320% speed when I need it over +10% speed when it might make me overshoot.

 

It kinda depends on if the +speed options from thrusters or engines affect boost speed. If the 10% speed option actually gives you 354% speed while using afterburners, then that would mean you wouldn't need to boost as long to get from point A to B, effectively increasing your engine pool while also making it easier for you to run away and harder for your target to escape. That could have a significant impact on gameplay.

 

 

But if the 10% increase *doesn't* affect afterburner speed, then the turning and regen options would be more valuable.

[Lendul]

It kinda depends on if the +speed options from thrusters or engines affect boost speed. If the 10% speed option actually gives you 354% speed while using afterburners, then that would mean you wouldn't need to boost as long to get from point A to B, effectively increasing your engine pool while also making it easier for you to run away and harder for your target to escape. That could have a significant impact on gameplay.

 

 

But if the 10% increase *doesn't* affect afterburner speed, then the turning and regen options would be more valuable.

Speed increases your base speed which is then multiplied by 320% when thrusting. Making you significantly faster than those without it. But as to the topic I prefer regeneration in most cases unless someone has evidence that that pool would make blasters do more damage per shot.

[-Streven-]

I started out overlooking regen but for the reasons already stated by others I've opted for regen over larger power pools in most cases. Overall for engines it seems to allow me more boost time in the long run and allows more versatility. I have rarely found I need to outrun people so to me speed isn't a factor other than during the opening of a domination round. For guns I like being able to get back in the fight as quick as possible.

 

I do like large reactors for my shields.

Edited April 7, 2014 by -Streven-

[Verain]

For engines and blasters, the regeneration rate is vastly superior to the pool. This is because those continue regenerating at all times, but you don't use them at all times- in fact, you control when you use them.

 

 

For shields, you always want larger shields. Those rarely continue regenerating when you need them to, and you don't have perfect control over when you are under fire, obviously.

 

The other big deal is the engineering passives are way more- 13% less CONSUMPTION is obviously superior to 13% max, and the actual buyoff is 10% max.

[mr_sim]

I'll chime in on something. Heavy Laser Cannons. They are the most power depleting thing ever. So If you're using say a Bomber or a GS you are using HLC in bursts and not sustained fire, in this event Power pool is probably the way to go. You will get more shots but when you deplete it will be for longer.

 

On a strike HLC your probably going to want regen.

[Kuciwalker]

Verain is correct. You always want large reactor on shields, and you always want regen extender on blasters. For engines the speed and turning thrusters have strong arguments for them, although I still prefer regen thruster.

 

Also yes on Engineering crewmember - the -13% cost is ridiculously better.

Edited April 7, 2014 by Kuciwalker

[Altheran]

You always want large reactor on shields.

 

If my ship is evasive (speed & manoeuvers) I'll take Turbo Reactor any day.

[Kuciwalker]

If my ship is evasive (speed & manoeuvers) I'll take Turbo Reactor any day.

 

Turbo is only better than Large if you are taking regular damage at intervals greater than 2.4 seconds for a very extended period of time. If you are actually evasive and able to avoid damage on demand, Large is better because you'll regen anyway.

 

Let me put it this way: if you take a series of hits to your shield (at intervals shorter than 2.4 seconds), 6s later Turbo will have recovered 18% of your base shield value. By contrast, Large provides an additional 20% of your base shield value - so you will still be better off having chosen Large.

 

Additionally, Large gives additional insurance against burst damage, and burst damage is king in GSF.

[Kuciwalker]

That said, there is something to be said for turbo in the corner case of directional shields (with the 3s regen delay reduction). This ultimately leaves you at a 1.2s regen delay, which is very very close to just having always-on regeneration. That can be worthwhile.

[Altheran]

Turbo is only better than Large if you are taking regular damage at intervals greater than 2.4 seconds for a very extended period of time. If you are actually evasive and able to avoid damage on demand, Large is better because you'll regen anyway.

 

Let me put it this way: if you take a series of hits to your shield (at intervals shorter than 2.4 seconds), 6s later Turbo will have recovered 18% of your base shield value. By contrast, Large provides an additional 20% of your base shield value - so you will still be better off having chosen Large.

 

Additionally, Large gives additional insurance against burst damage, and burst damage is king in GSF.

 

That's in theory. In practice, to flee someone for 6+ seconds you have to completly flee, using hit and run tactics.

So most of the time Turbo will not grant additionnal 18% shield but 10-15% in one "run", because it's likely that someone catches you before the 6s.

 

But the thing is if you're doing things right, you'll have multiple runs, two, three, sometimes almost indefintely if you make use of landscapes and structures... where Large Reactor wil have eat some taps in the shields making it almost impossible to regen, and making that improvement "a flat one" (unless you hit and run).

 

Example, you use structures to avoid being hit. But regardless you take some few hits regularly, around once every 4s. Large Reactor, will give you 20% more shields, but ultimately you'll die since you don't regen.

Now let's say that each time they hit me I lose 20% worth of shield HP. Turbo allow me to regen 10% each time. Ultimately I'll also die, but I'll increase the damage needed to kill me by 50% (for either shields and hull).

 

Now, about the times where Turbo is weaker : when I have only one fleeing run or didn't have time to react. Let's take the worse one, I didn't flee at all, then I'm losing 20% of shield HP.

But how much is that ? 20% of ~1500 is 300. That's one cannon shot, and around 0.5s of time I'd could survive... at most. Because I don't account for the possibility that these 300 can also be overcome by the "overdamage" that the last hit/burst did, meaning that I don't account the possibility that I'd die as fast regardless of Large Reactor or not.

So let's say these 0.5s saved my life. I'll have to run for more than 6s to hope not dying in the next hit. I'm nearly as good as dead.

 

Even in your theorical situation, where i regenerated 18%, 2% of shield HP difference is really insignificant, and if you want to regen your shields with Large reactor, you'll have to spend 3.6s more fleeing, maybe spending engine energy, not trying to attack foes either.

 

That's why I think Large reactor isn't worth unless the ship doesn't have good escapability (or if the regen rate is lowered) like bombers, or gunships...

It may be possibily and insignificantly weaker, but also be consequently better.

Edited April 7, 2014 by Altheran

[Kuciwalker]

That's in theory. In practice, to flee someone for 6+ seconds you have to completly flee, using hit and run tactics.

So most of the time Turbo will not grant additionnal 18% shield but 10-15% in one "run", because it's likely that someone catches you before the 6s.

 

To get 10% from Turbo you'd need to avoid being hit for 4.4s. To get 15%, 5.4s. If you get hit within 2.4s you get 0%. You need pretty precisely calibrated intervals of regular fire (that manage not to kill you) for Turbo to provide anything, and these intervals have to occur over a long period of time (possibly tens of seconds) for Turbo to actually outperform Large. If a fight lasts long enough for Turbo to actually win... then it lasted long enough that you could probably have afforded to fly defensively for a portion of it anyway.

 

But the thing is if you're doing things right, you'll have multiple runs, two, three, sometimes almost indefintely if you make use of landscapes and structures... where Large Reactor wil have eat some taps in the shields making it almost impossible to regen, and making that improvement "a flat one" (unless you hit and run).

 

Again, you need some pretty precisely calibrated parameters for this to actually work. Large shields regen too! It just takes them a bit longer.

 

Even in your theorical situation, where i regenerated 18%, 2% of shield HP difference is really insignificant, and if you want to regen your shields with Large reactor, you'll have to spend 3.6s more fleeing, maybe spending engine energy, not trying to attack foes either.

 

The 6s mark is when Turbo has maximally outperformed Large (from a single recharge cycle) - and even then it doesn't actually outperform. Let me restate: Large wins in that circumstance.

[Kuciwalker]

IOW, if you are taking damage with the regularity necessary to make Turbo worthwhile, you are going to die pretty quickly anyway and you need to fly defensively to survive. And if you are flying defensively Large has a chance to recharge.

[Altheran]

The 6s mark is when Turbo has maximally outperformed Large (from a single recharge cycle) - and even then it doesn't actually outperform. Let me restate: Large wins in that circumstance.

 

Nope. Let me also restate : if I'm regenerating 15% more shields, but do that twice, I increased my virtual shield capacity by 30%. As long as you don't obliterate me so that I can't regen, or as long as you're not bad enough so that I won't have issues regenerating without Turbo reactor, I'll be more survivable with Turbo than with Large reactor.

[Kuciwalker]

Nope. Let me also restate : if I'm regenerating 15% more shields, but do that twice, I increased my virtual shield capacity by 30%. As long as you don't obliterate me so that I can't regen, or as long as you're not bad enough so that I won't have issues regenerating without Turbo reactor, I'll be more survivable with Turbo than with Large reactor.

 

Hint: look at the parenthetical. And look at how I've addressed at length how unrealistic your assumption is.

[Loc_n_lol]

It kinda depends on if the +speed options from thrusters or engines affect boost speed. If the 10% speed option actually gives you 354% speed while using afterburners, then that would mean you wouldn't need to boost as long to get from point A to B, effectively increasing your engine pool while also making it easier for you to run away and harder for your target to escape. That could have a significant impact on gameplay.

 

 

But if the 10% increase *doesn't* affect afterburner speed, then the turning and regen options would be more valuable.

 

I don't know how it works exactly, if the afterburn bonus multiplies speed including bonuses (384%), or if it's just additive like other bonuses (340%). But with speed thrusters and a speed upgrade on engine component, I can boost about as far on a strike as with regen thrusters (spawn to mid non-stop) and get there faster too, so it's definitely not overriding (320%). The difference with a not fully upgraded engine component is also appreciable.

 

Using barrel roll tends to make all of that rather irrelevant but that's going to change tomorrow.

[Sindariel]

On a scout, Turbo Reactor is always better than Large Reactor.

Those ~200 shield points you get from Large Reactor make absolutely zero difference on a squishy scout.

And thanks to evasion, you get plenty of opportunities to regen your shields with Turbo Reactor.

 

The only situation where Turbo Reactor isn't that useful is against gunships. But Large Reactor isn't much useful either, so...

[Ramalina]

I don't know how it works exactly, if the afterburn bonus multiplies speed including bonuses (384%), or if it's just additive like other bonuses (340%). But with speed thrusters and a speed upgrade on engine component, I can boost about as far on a strike as with regen thrusters (spawn to mid non-stop) and get there faster too, so it's definitely not overriding (320%). The difference with a not fully upgraded engine component is also appreciable.

 

Using barrel roll tends to make all of that rather irrelevant but that's going to change tomorrow.

 

Speed thrusters increase base speed. On a strike that means going from 744 m/s to 893 m/s. When you boost the 893 is multiplied by 3.2. Basically you go 2.8 km/s instead of 2.4. That works out to 16.7% increase in range, and you get there sooner. Note, that assumes taking the speed option on your engine component too.

[Kuciwalker]

On a scout, Turbo Reactor is always better than Large Reactor.

Those ~200 shield points you get from Large Reactor make absolutely zero difference on a squishy scout.

And thanks to evasion, you get plenty of opportunities to regen your shields with Turbo Reactor.

 

False, false, false, and also indicative of a lack of actually looking at the math.

 

Scout base shield is 1300. Large shield represents 260 shield points.

 

Scout shield regeneration is 65/s. That means in order to beat Large, Turbo has to give you an extra four seconds of regeneration you wouldn't have had otherwise. (And that extra time has to matter - if you'd have time to fully regenerate your shields anyway, it doesn't really matter that they fully regenerate slightly faster.) After getting hit once, even after 6s you've only had an extra 3.6s of regen from Turbo vs Large (i.e. it wasn't worth it yet).

 

If you get hit once every 3s, it takes ~20s of sustained fire at that hit right in order for Turbo to outperform Large (and you are probably dead in either case). If you get hit once every 2s, Turbo never outperforms Large.

 

It is a very narrow window of average hit frequencies that justifies Turbo, and under those hit frequencies you will probably DIE before you actually see the benefit.

Edited April 7, 2014 by Kuciwalker

[Sindariel]

False, false, false, and also indicative of a lack of actually looking at the math.

 

Scout base shield is 1300. Large shield represents 260 shield points.

 

Scout shield regeneration is 65/s. That means in order to beat Large, Turbo has to give you an extra four seconds of regeneration you wouldn't have had otherwise. (And that extra time has to matter - if you'd have time to fully regenerate your shields anyway, it doesn't really matter that they fully regenerate slightly faster.) After getting hit once, even after 6s you've only had an extra 3.6s of regen from Turbo vs Large (i.e. it wasn't worth it yet).

 

If you get hit once every 3s, it takes ~20s of sustained fire at that hit right in order for Turbo to outperform Large (and you are probably dead in either case). If you get hit once every 2s, Turbo never outperforms Large.

 

It is a very narrow window of average hit frequencies that justifies Turbo, and under those hit frequencies you will probably DIE before you actually see the benefit.

 

You're just proving again, that math cannot be applied in every situation.

 

What your math does not take into consideration is that with large reactor, you have a regen delay of 6 seconds. This gives your opponents plenty of time to hit you again, which resets this delay.

So, as long as you get hit every 6s, your shields never regen, making your increased shield pool rather useless over a long period, because it doesn't replenish.

 

Turbo Reactor on the other hand increasees your survivability in that aspect, because you get more opportunities to regen your shields, even if it is only for a small amount.

 

Sometimes, you should stop looking at the math and instead, look at your personal experiences.

And my experience tells me that I survive longer with Turbo Reactor than with Large Reactor (on a scout).

Edited April 7, 2014 by Sindariel

[Zharik]

False, false, false, and also indicative of a lack of actually looking at the math.

 

Scout base shield is 1300. Large shield represents 260 shield points.

 

Scout shield regeneration is 65/s. That means in order to beat Large, Turbo has to give you an extra four seconds of regeneration you wouldn't have had otherwise. (And that extra time has to matter - if you'd have time to fully regenerate your shields anyway, it doesn't really matter that they fully regenerate slightly faster.) After getting hit once, even after 6s you've only had an extra 3.6s of regen from Turbo vs Large (i.e. it wasn't worth it yet).

 

If you get hit once every 3s, it takes ~20s of sustained fire at that hit right in order for Turbo to outperform Large (and you are probably dead in either case). If you get hit once every 2s, Turbo never outperforms Large.

 

It is a very narrow window of average hit frequencies that justifies Turbo, and under those hit frequencies you will probably DIE before you actually see the benefit.

 

Also it is a TOTAL benefit when your shields are GONE from attacks and saving you hull at this point with every shield point regenerated sooner. When dissecting one attack and figuring out the math, you are usually better off with large reactors, but in the actual game environment, turbo is very useful (and I would argue more useful the more "defensive" your ship build and piloting skills are).

 

Now as a point of math, turbo beats regen reactors in all but 1 situation.

[Kuciwalker]

You're just proving again, that math cannot be applied in every situation.

 

IOW you don't know what you're talking about.

 

What your math does not take into consideration is that with large reactor, you have a regen delay of 6 seconds. This gives your opponents plenty of time to hit you again, which resets this delay.

 

No, that is precisely what my math took into consideration. The range of attack frequencies under which turbo outperforms large is narrow, and within a large fraction of those you are likely to die before turbo actually comes ahead.