Luke Skywalker is a fool

[Beniboybling]

Don't know what you mean by arguments.It's opinions.My opinion is the he made a decisive step towards the Light Side after he refused to kill his father.A fight with Palpatine would have resulted most probably with his death or would have ended the same,with Palpatine flying down.

 

Your opinion is that he would be turned to the dark side,bringing Marek as an example,despite that fact that Marek's particular case is unique and can't be applied to Luke.

 

He could have just as easily done that without throwing away his saber.

Arguments can be opinions, a debate is an exchange of opinions. Obviously. Regardless my "opinions" are supported by facts. But anyway that's very nice.

 

My point is, that attacking the Emperor would be pointless because 1. he had no chance of defeating him, at all. 2. he ran the considerable risk of turning to the dark side in the process. Regardless of whether 2. is true or not, he still had no chance of defeating him. And 2. could well be true considering that while yes Luke did take a decisive step to the light, that would be reverted by attacking the Emperor in an act of aggression in violation of the Jedi Code:

 

"A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack."

―Yoda

 

Attacking the Emperor would have been an act of aggression, which is the very thing Luke has just rejected.

 

If you attack someone when they have not attacked you or are in the process of attacking you you are using aggression. Refer to the quotes Luke provided that proves he not only understood this but that his thoughts were clouded. Essentially he'd take one step forward and then two steps back, for no real reason.

 

Unless you know have a reason? Or do you need time to think?

 

Effectively his lightsaber at this point serves no purpose. So Luke threw it away to show the Emperor that he would not give in to aggression, depriving himself of the weapon by which he exercised it.

 

Could he have held on to it? Yes. But what would that have shown? That he was still clinging on to the darkness and to aggression, he had to get rid it, as a statement to the Emperor and a statement to himself.

 

P.S. You cannot seperate this from the "corny, symbolism mushiness" of the film. It was Luke that looked at his mechanical hand and lightsaber and saw them as symbols of aggression. And it was Luke who threw his lightsaber away to make a symbolic statement to the Emperor. We the audience are merely seeing this happen.

 

So yes, it is symbolic from an in and out of universe perspective.

Edited March 28, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

You going senile too? All i am talking about is objective action of throwing away your saber,alone, and then put it through a reality check,without putting on glasses consisting of corny symbolism mushiness.

So you've given up on this point then?

Yes it's better to lie down and be electrocuted do death, but remain with clear conscience than to at least try to do something vs Palpatine.This is so selfish that Vitiate's evil pales in comparison.

Not to mention absurd.

That's good, because it was rather ridiculous.

[Kaedusz]

^don't know what you mean.

in the first quote i am trying to say that i am talking about throwing away the saber,and nothing else

in the second quote i say that it's absurd to throw away your saber ,for the reason mentioned

 

Attacking the Emperor would have been an act of aggression, which is the very thing Luke has just rejected.

 

At least he should have put his saber in the pocket or something,just in case.

Edited March 28, 2014 by Kaedusz

[Beniboybling]

At least he should have put his saber in the pocket or something.

Which wouldn't have been much different from holding it in his hand.

 

Luke is a young, barely trained Jedi Knight in the presence of a veritable dark side nexus (Sidious) undergoing a great deal of emotional turmoil and attempting to resist the tug of the darkside. You cannot expect him to just put it back in his pocket and be like "darkness gone now!". No. He had to throw that thing away.

 

EDIT: Its very much akin to the following:

 

Imagine in a rage filled killing spree you just went a slaughtered a bunch of people with a knife. Then with their bodies all over the place you come to your senses and look down at your blood stained hands. What do you think your reaction is going to be? Put the knife back in your pocket? No. Your going to throw that knife away and wash your damn hands.

 

The psychological effects of symbols and objects are just as important as practical matters. Especially in the Star Wars universe were there is a mystical energy force that can influence your feelings.

Edited March 28, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Wolfninjajedi]

Luke is a young, barely trained Jedi Knight

 

He was fully trained, it was just his emotions(like Anakin) that he had a tough time keeping under control. Difference is, Luke went one way and Anakin went the other.

Edited March 28, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[Kaedusz]

Which wouldn't have been much different from holding it in his hand.

 

Luke is a young, barely trained Jedi Knight in the presence of a veritable dark side nexus (Sidious) undergoing a great deal of emotional turmoil and attempting to resist the tug of the darkside. You cannot expect him to just put it back in his pocket and be like "darkness gone now!". No. He had to throw that thing away.

You misunderstand.

I perfectly know what you are trying to say, and i know his reasons for doing it.-meaning i know what was going on in his head as he threw away the saber.

 

All i am saying is that it's not the wisest decision.

Edited March 28, 2014 by Kaedusz

[Beniboybling]

He was fully trained, it was just his emotions(like Anakin) that he had a tough time keeping under control.

Yeah I understand that he was "technically" full trained, but his training wasn't exactly proper, extensive or orthodox which is why he had a difficult time controlling his emotions.

[Beniboybling]

You misunderstand.

I perfectly know what you are trying to say, and i know his reasons for doing it.

All i am saying is that it's not the wisest decision.

In a practical sense his lightsaber was useless. So marginally to say the least.

 

But in the sense of getting his emotions under control and pulling completely away from the dark side? It was a wise move and I expect Yoda and Obi-Wan would have been very proud. Heck it might have even inspired Vader to action.

[YoshiRaphElan]

The other day I watched the original trilogy after many many years. I enjoyed them a great deal, but now that I am a little older I tend to look more between the lines. With that said I'll get on with my argument. Why in God's name did Luke toss his lightsaber while the Emperor was goading him to strike Vader down, and take Vader's place as his new apprentice?

 

I cannot see the logic in Luke's decision to say "Never. I'll never turn to the Dark Side. You've failed, your highness. I am a Jedi, like my father before me"

 

What was he really expecting by throwing his lightsaber, what was his ultimate plan? He claims to be a jedi yet he acts on pure emotion. Was he expecting Sidious to say

 

"Oh well I guess we tried, why don't we just play some pazaak until this battle ends and I annihilate your friends, then ill just have you sent back to Tatooine"

 

Luke had a few other options which significantly increased his chance of survival. The best option would be strike Vader down and become the Emperor's new apprentice. Luke would become more powerful than him anyway, and one day he would overthrow him, or he could have just placated Sidious until he was sent out on his first mission, at that point he could have simply never returned. The other option would be keeping his lightsaber and attacking Sidious. He would definitely go down, but he would die with his head held high instead of crying on the floor, in fact he might have even had a small chance of victory if he was able to lure Sidious near the reactor shaft and force push him down there.

 

Ultimately he threw away his lightsaber like a fool and spit in the Emperor's face. In the end he walked off the deathstar because he was very very lucky.

 

There was no guarantee Vader would betray his master, or that he was even capable of destroying him.

 

Wow. Okay, so...well I can't even find words. It was a statement, okay? He was saying that he'd rather die than join the dark side. Throwing away the lightsaber was a symbol, because he'd earlier used that weapon in an attempt to strike at Palpatine in anger. Now he's throwing it aside and letting come what may. Dying "with his head held high" is exactly how he would've died even if Vader hadn't rescued him, because he would've died holding onto his morals, showing that he was above Palpatine's taunts. At that point, Palpatine was guaranteed to die anyways since the shield generator had been disabled. Luke didn't care. He was willing to die as long as it meant Palpatine died with him. He wasn't a fool, he was a hero, and you, sir, badly misunderstood–very badly–a very emotional scene, one of the best "turn away from evil" moments in any movie I've seen.

[Kaedusz]

1.In a practical sense his lightsaber was useless. So marginally to say the least.

 

2.But in the sense of getting his emotions under control and pulling completely away from the dark side? It was a wise move and I expect Yoda and Obi-Wan would have been very proud. Heck it might have even inspired Vader to action.

 

1.But he didn't know that.An appropriate decision would be to keep it just in case of an incoming calamity with Palpatine.

2.I'm pretty sure it's what he said,that inspired Vader(+ the lightning punishment obviously),not what he did with his saber,after he turned it off.

 

PS:I sense you bear real affection towards him.It's like i am reading a loving uncle talking about his nephew.Didn't realize these movie characters are that meaningful to ya.

Edited March 28, 2014 by Kaedusz

[YoshiRaphElan]

1.But he didn't know that.An appropriate decision would be to keep it just in case of an incoming calamity with Palpatine.

 

You're still not getting it. The lightsaber was a representation of temptation. Temptation to kill Vader, to attack Palpatine. He was literally throwing away temptation so it couldn't tempt him.

 

2.I'm pretty sure it's what he said,that inspired Vader(+ the lightning punishment obviously),not what he did with his saber,after he turned it off.

 

So? Sure, his words inspired Vader, but he didn't throw the lightsaber away for Vader's sake, he threw it away for his own.

 

PS:I sense you bear real affection towards him.It's like i am reading a loving uncle talking about his nephew.Didn't realize these movie characters are that meaningful to ya.

 

Movie characters are meaningful to a lot of people, especially when they were childhood heroes. For example, when I was eight years old I wanted to be Luke Skywalker, and even to this day I have a soft spot in my heart for him. I'm sorry you apparently don't understand what it means to have characters mean something to you.

[Beniboybling]

1.But he didn't know that.An appropriate decision would be to keep it just in case of an incoming calamity with Palpatine.

2.I'm pretty sure it's what he said,that inspired Vader(+ the lightning punishment obviously),not what he did with his saber,after he turned it off.

 

PS:I sense you bear real affection towards him.It's like i am reading a loving uncle talking about his nephew.Didn't realize these movie characters are that meaningful to ya.

1. Considering Palpatine's power is palpable, and he came to the Death Star not to fight, I'm sure he did.

 

2. It was just a theory. I'm sure Vader was altogether impressed by his son's abilities to resist the Emperor.

 

Yup that's me, I just love the good guys. Great, great folks. Right everyone?

 

Do I like the scene? Yes! Because its works! Its a shame you can't see that.

Edited March 28, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Maaruin]

May I present an alternative view to Luke knowing that his lightsaber was useless against the Emperor?

 

Luke had no idea how powerful the Emperor was. He saw an old man who depended on Vaders protection. With Vader down he had the choice between killing the Emperor and falling to the dark side or refusing to fight entirely.

 

The Emperor says:

 

If you will not be turned, you will be

destroyed.

(lightning)

Young fool...only now, at the end, do you

understand.

(lightning)

Your feeble skills are no match for the power

of the dark side. You have paid the price for

your lack of vision.

 

 

I'm not sure what the implications of that would be. I guess in a certain point of view it would make Luke a fool like the Emperor says. Not for the reasons the OP mentioned, but for not taking heed of Yoda's warning ("Do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor.").

[Beniboybling]

May I present an alternative view to Luke knowing that his lightsaber was useless against the Emperor?

 

Luke had no idea how powerful the Emperor was. He saw an old man who depended on Vaders protection. With Vader down he had the choice between killing the Emperor and falling to the dark side or refusing to fight entirely.

 

The Emperor says:

 

If you will not be turned, you will be

destroyed.

(lightning)

Young fool...only now, at the end, do you

understand.

(lightning)

Your feeble skills are no match for the power

of the dark side. You have paid the price for

your lack of vision.

 

 

I'm not sure what the implications of that would be. I guess in a certain point of view it would make Luke a fool like the Emperor says. Not for the reasons the OP mentioned, but for not taking heed of Yoda's warning ("Do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor.").

That's an interesting theory, I still feel Luke threw the lightsaber away in an act of symbolic significance to himself and believed attacking Palpatine would be giving in to the aggression he just rejected, but at the same time this is possible.

 

The novel would have to be consulted though, most encounters with Sidious in novels have made reference to the characters being able to sense his vast power, but Sidious may have been masking his to goad Luke into attacking.

[Kaedusz]

You're still not getting it. The lightsaber was a representation of temptation.

No ,no it isn't. Clear your head . Certainly throwing away the saber has a meaning in it's own way,especially in Luke's mind,but the Dark side and temptation is represented by other things in the scene,not the lightsaber.Luke doesn't even regard it that much,if at all.

Edited March 28, 2014 by Kaedusz

[Wolfninjajedi]

That's an interesting theory, I still feel Luke threw the lightsaber away in an act of symbolic significance to himself and believed attacking Palpatine would be giving in to the aggression he just rejected, but at the same time this is possible.

 

The novel would have to be consulted though, most encounters with Sidious in novels have made reference to the characters being able to sense his vast power, but Sidious may have been masking his to goad Luke into attacking.

 

To quote again

 

Luke stared at his father beneath him, then at the Emperor, then back at Vader. This was Darkness—and it was the Darkness he hated. Not his father, not even the Emperor. But the Darkness in them. In them, and in himself. And the only way to destroy the Darkness was to renounce it. For good and all. He stood suddenly erect, and made the decision for which he'd spent his life in preparation. He hurled his lightsaber away. “Never! Never will I turn to the dark side! You have failed, Palpatine. I am a Jedi, as my father was before me.”

 

Seems to be symbolic in Luke rejecting the darkness.

[Kaedusz]

the novel quote

 

The lightsaber toss seems like an automatic action ,part of the whole rejecting darkness thing.It's not the essential part.A minor detail.If he didn't thew it away ,but just turn it off,put it away, the picture would be still whole.

It's as automatic as me turning on the lights after i enter a dark room.

Edited March 28, 2014 by Kaedusz

[Beniboybling]

No ,no it isn't. Clear your head . Certainly throwing away the saber has a meaning in it's own way,especially in Luke's mind,but the Dark side and temptation is represented by other things in the scene,not the lightsaber.Luke doesn't even regard it that much,if at all.

Yes, it is. You need to refer to my example. The way in which Luke looked at his lightsaber and his hand prior to that scene, and from what we know from human psychology, strongly indicates that Luke gave the lightsaber negative connotations, which is why he threw it away. That is why throwing the lightsaber away has meaning to him.

[Kaedusz]

That is why throwing the lightsaber away has meaning to him

 

Except i didn't say it doesn't have any meaning to him.Also check the post above.

Edited March 28, 2014 by Kaedusz

[Beniboybling]

The lightsaber toss seems like an automatic action ,part of the whole rejecting darkness thing.It's not the essential part.A minor detail.If he didn't thew it away ,but just turn it off,put it away, the picture would be still whole.

It's as automatic as me turning on the lights after i enter a dark room.

You seem to have made a complete U-Turn from this:

You misunderstand.

I perfectly know what you are trying to say, and i know his reasons for doing it.-meaning i know what was going on in his head as he threw away the saber.

 

All i am saying is that it's not the wisest decision.

Let me remind you why this is wrong:

 

==================================================

 

Luke is a young, barely trained Jedi Knight in the presence of a veritable dark side nexus (Sidious) undergoing a great deal of emotional turmoil and attempting to resist the tug of the darkside. You cannot expect him to just put it back in his pocket and be like "darkness gone now!". No. He had to throw that thing away.

 

EDIT: Its very much akin to the following:

 

Imagine in a rage you just went a slaughtered a bunch of people with a knife. Then with their bodies all over the place you come to your senses and look down at your blood stained hands. What do you think your reaction is going to be? Put the knife back in your pocket? No. Your going to throw that knife away and wash your damn hands.

 

The psychological effects of symbols and objects are just as important as practical matters. Especially in the Star Wars universe were there is a mystical energy force that can influence your feelings.

 

==================================================

 

Clearly you do not understand what was going through Luke's head, or just do not want to. Because the above is not compatible with the idea that it was just a jerk reaction, it was a lot more than that.

 

Why else would the quote put stress on the action?

Except i didn't say it doesn't have any meaning to him.Also check the post above.

And I strongly disagree with everything you said. Its not just an automatic action, a minor detail, Luke does regard the lightsaber "that much". The lightsaber in itself is important because its a symbol of his aggression, and that is why he throws it away. If the lightsaber wasn't important, he wouldn't have bothered to toss it.

 

Unless of course you want to argue that the jerk reaction was a reaction to the negative connotations he associated with the lightsaber, which is indeed true, but that's certainly not what you were initially arguing.

Edited March 28, 2014 by Beniboybling

[YoshiRaphElan]

No ,no it isn't. Clear your head . Certainly throwing away the saber has a meaning in it's own way,especially in Luke's mind,but the Dark side and temptation is represented by other things in the scene,not the lightsaber.Luke doesn't even regard it that much,if at all.

 

Okay, then the lightsaber is the tool to carry out the temptation. Luke was making sure he couldn't be tempted by ensuring he didn't have the tools to follow through with it.

[Kaedusz]

 

Imagine in a rage you just went a slaughtered a bunch of people with a knife. Then with their bodies all over the place you come to your senses and look down at your blood stained hands. What do you think your reaction is going to be? Put the knife back in your pocket? No. Your going to throw that knife away and wash your damn hands.

 

It's not a bloodied knife he was throwing.It's the legitimate weapon of a jedi knight,symbol of light,if anything.

The most precious thing to a jedi,along with the force and his robes.

Edited March 28, 2014 by Kaedusz

[Beniboybling]

It's not a bloodied knife he was throwing.It's the legitimate weapon of a jedi knight,symbol of light,if anything.

The most precious thing to a jedi,along with the force and his robes.

And if the bloodied weapon was of importance as well? It makes little difference.

 

Clearly the lightsaber was no longer that symbol, or he wouldn't have thrown it away and said "I'm a Jedi."

Edited March 28, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Maaruin]

Luke stared at his father beneath him, then at the Emperor, then back at Vader. This was Darkness—and it was the Darkness he hated. Not his father, not even the Emperor. But the Darkness in them. In them, and in himself. And the only way to destroy the Darkness was to renounce it. For good and all. He stood suddenly erect, and made the decision for which he'd spent his life in preparation. He hurled his lightsaber away. “Never! Never will I turn to the dark side! You have failed, Palpatine. I am a Jedi, as my father was before me.”

 

This would work with my theory that Luke doesn't know how powerful Palpatine is. He thinks he has three choices:

 

1. kill Vader and become Palpatine's apprentice -> Darkness

2. attack and kill Palpatine -> Darkness

3. refuse to fight -> not darkness

 

Does the novel state at which point Luke realizes that the Emperor is much more powerful than him?

[Kaedusz]

Clearly the lightsaber was no longer that symbol, or he wouldn't have thrown it away and said "I'm a Jedi."

 

Yes,and that's why this thread has the name it has.

From here on, it's a matter of agreeing to disagreeing.

Why are you accepting what Luke did as the best possible course of action is an interesting question.It probably has to do with the affection you feel towards him.

Edited March 28, 2014 by Kaedusz