Is it ethically right to play SwTOR?

[jedip_enguin]

[Darth_Wicked]

I will destroy you!

I love you forever.

[Rafaman]

Well... the question as it is posed is easy to answer by most. But, OP, if you are looking for a more thoughtful response here is mine.

 

Basically, playing a game is not a moral imperative. And rarely, if ever, will it involve a moral imperative. What that means is that there is no huge moral decision to be made while playing. You do not kill anyone for real etc. etc.

 

What it boils down to is an individual ethical choice. And those, unlike moral imperatives are not black and white. They are not easy to discern. Those choices are based on your own individual experience and largely on what you believe is important.

 

So, is it ethically right to play this game if you believe that BW business practices are a detriment to a greater group? No. It really isn't. If you believe that, you shouldn't play the game. The opposite is true as well.

 

OP, I think you can't get a definitive answer on this because it is not a binary issue. Based on what I have seen and what I consider to be my own individual ethic. There is no ethical dilemma here. But that is my own personal view.

[Macetheace]

What's a Bioware Cultist? Is it somehow related to Biotic Cultists from Mass Effect?

it's a term Dawginole used in the post I quoted from him, he made in this topic I also created.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=7300304#post7300304 the source of this topic.

The problem here is that "exploitation" is a very serious problem that causes actual physical, emotional, or economic harm to people without power by people with power. Examples are human trafficking, slave labor, sweatshops, and so on. Heck, we can even argue about whether stripping is exploitative, and who is the more exploited, or whether a particular company's labor and wage practices are exploitative.

 

But calling any system of an online game "exploitation" diminishes the word. Exploitation simply can't exist in a form of entertainment that people with enough free time, a computer, and internet access voluntarily pay money to participate in.

 

if you think I shouldn't have used the word exploitation, what word would you use to mean taking an unfair advantage of someone? or should i go back and edit what i wrote and substitute exploit for "taking an unfair advantage over someone"? but let's not get bugged down in definitions, I'm trying to determine whether the whole thing is actually exploiting people or as you'd have me say taking advantage of people, and not many responses here are really helping me tbh cos they've gone all defensive, i feel like i'm being attacked for asking a question,

 

i quote somebody, and i'm attacked as if it's my own view even though i clearly explain that it is the source of my doubt, shouldn't they in their great love for bioware or is it a love for fairness?, be trying to convince me the person i quoted is wrong rather than trying to attack me? now how can I take any well written argument they say seriously when they blatantly misread and misrepresented what i said by responding like that...? Showing me either they're clearly trying to manipulate me which i don't like and don't respect or so blindly loyal that they can get so easily offended to the extent they'd miss and confuse me with someone else and what i'm getting at - in which case again, how can i take what they say seriously? i'll be less inclined to even read subsequent walls of text from them as such people would have convinced me they're more interested in re-affirming their blinded opinion than exploring a truth or seeing clearly and correcting or informing others who do not see as clearly as they.

Edited March 21, 2014 by Macetheace

[JimG]

Of all the ridiculous threads I've seen started up on here....this one might be the most ridiculous....and that's saying something. What the hell does playing a video game have to do with "ethics"???

[NoFishing]

I would say that ethics plays a part in the SWTOR cartel market because buying cartel packs amounts to gambling. Some people become addicted to the "gambling" style of play and if you don't think this was purposeful on the part of EA/Bioware I'd say you're being delusional.

 

Without wanting to start a debate about what technically is or isn't gambling, yes, the system is definitely designed to encourage people to buy more packs to get some item they want. But as long as people are not spending more than they can afford, and are getting enjoyment from opening the packs, I don't see anything unethical happening. If people start to feel like they are getting ripped off, they should stop buying the packs.

 

And I know that gambling addictions are a real thing. What I don't know is if any scientific study has actually been done to show that it applies to digital content packs as well.

[DarthDymond]

But calling any system of an online game "exploitation" diminishes the word. Exploitation simply can't exist in a form of entertainment that people with enough free time, a computer, and internet access voluntarily pay money to participate in.

I actually disagree with you here. In addition to the fact that gambling packs can exploit gambling addiction, or borderline tendencies towards the same, there's been a long history of analyzing whether MMOs in general are designed to exploit certain "triggers" for people with addictive tendencies.

 

The "gear treadmill" may simple be a tedious aspect of padding the game out for you and me, but for others it may psychologically trap people. There's a reason some countries impose specific internet blocks that prevent people from playing online games for extended periods of time.

 

This may not be anywhere near the severity of exploitation that comes into play with human trafficking or sweatshops, but I would say it's still a legitimate open question as to whether or not it is a genuine form of exploitation - even if it is a "first world problem" version of it.

 

(And before anyone says "it's just a self-control issue, those people need to grow the hell up and take responsibility!" I'm not taking a side on that debate here, I'm just saying it is a real debate worth recognizing.)

[HelinCarnate]

Is there a need for anything in the cartel market boxes? No. It is only a want. If there was something that was required to play the game in there and only a low chance of getting said item then yes ethics would be involved. Since everything is cosmetic, each person can make their own decision if taking the risk of trying to get it through the gambling boxes is worth it or paying credits on the GTN.

[Sangrar]

if you think I shouldn't have used the word exploitation, what word would you use to mean taking an unfair advantage of someone? or shoudl i go back and edit what i wrote and substitute exploit for "taking an unfair advantage over someone"? but let's not get bugged down in definitions, I'm trying to determine whether the whole thing is actually exploiting people or as you'd have me say taking advantage of people, and not many responses here are really helping me tbh cos they've gone all defensive, i feel like i'm being attacked for asking a question,

 

i quote somebody, and i'm attacked as if it's my own view even though i clealry explain that it is the source of my doubt, shoudlnt' they in their great love for bioware or is it a love for fairness? be trying to convince me the person i quoted is wrong rather than trying to attack me? now how can I take any well written arguemnt they say seriously when they blatantly misread and misrepsresnted what i said by responding like that... showing me either they're clearly trying to manipulate me which i don't like and don't respect or so blindly loyal that htey can get so easily offended to the extent they['d miss and confuse me with someone else and what i'm getting at - in which case again, how can i take what they say seriously? i'll be less inclined to even read subsequent walls of text sas such people woudl hve convinced me they're more interesting in re-affirming their blinded opinion than exploring a truth or seeing clealry and correcting or informing others who do not see as clearly as they.

 

the question remains, how is promoting the cm, as any business would do, unethical especially since NO ONE IS FORCED to use the cm or buy cartel coins? The cm is used of everyones free will, to say that's exploitation is, no offense, like going to a movie you did ended up not liking and saying that the theater exploited you for your choice to see it.

[Jamilyn]

OP - there is a lot of good replies here and you are just replying to the negative ones.

[Macetheace]

Of all the ridiculous threads I've seen started up on here....this one might be the most ridiculous....and that's saying something. What the hell does playing a video game have to do with "ethics"???

 

I pointed that out in the opeining post, you are invited to go read it properly, then come back and give a more apt response.

[Sangrar]

OP - there is a lot of good replies here and you are just replying to the negative ones.

 

yeah seriously Mace respond to some of the more mature posts

[Macetheace]

OP - there is a lot of good replies here and you are just replying to the negative ones.

 

my dear, sadly i'm two pages behind the replies, they're coming much faster than i can type out the responses to the bad ones, my last response was a response to early page 2, by the time I clicked submit reply, it was page 4.

[Nickious]

i quote somebody, and i'm attacked as if it's my own view even

 

I don't see anywhere people were attacking you unless 'disagreeing' is a form of attack now.

 

I very much doubt that this was just a spur of the moment topic. You've had that quote on your sig for awhile now, which I rightfully suspected was anti-CM attitude.

 

As for me, I don't care. I don't directly use it, it doesn't affect me, it doesn't have any content I need. If Bioware were using my sub money to fund a criminal syndicate or funding terrorism, I might care, but its not affecting anyone aside from how much excess profit the company has after paying its employees.

Edited March 20, 2014 by Nickious

[NoFishing]

if you think I shouldn't have used the word exploitation, what word would you use to mean taking an unfair advantage of someone?

 

I don't care what word you use. I want you to explain to me how someone can be victimized by Bioware choosing what items to put on the cartel market, and for packs, what the drop chance is for the items in the packs. And please explain how any such "victimization" is different than renting a bad movie from iTunes, getting a badly seasoned steak at a restaurant, or buying an XBox One the week before it sees a price cut. Or getting selected for Jury Duty.

 

Edit: and to be clear, the quote you included didn't say anything about exploitation or ethics. They simply provided a workable theory as to how Bioware can exert control over the GTN pricing of CM items. You added the questions about exploitation and ethics.

Edited March 20, 2014 by NoFishing

[Clarian]

Is it unethical to go to Vegas for shows and buffets?

 

I love ambling the strip and seeing the sights and all that...but I never do any gambling myself.

[Khevar]

Without wanting to start a debate about what technically is or isn't gambling, yes, the system is definitely designed to encourage people to buy more packs to get some item they want.

I remember the extremely heated debates on the subject when Cartel Packs were first introduced. It got so violent one would think people were arguing about which end of the egg to open first.

 

Personally, I don't feel qualified to state whether or not the packs are gambling. I prefer to call them "lottery packs" as it seems to satisfy my personal dislike of the idea without using a super charged word like "gambling".

 

My main objection to the Cartel Packs is that it is a lazy way to make money. Why not have a Cartel Market that didn't involve random loot drops, that allowed you to purchase the specific things you were looking for with no randomness associated?

 

Cartel Packs make a ton of money for EA. A CM that made the same amount of money without relying on random loot bags would be superior to the current one, but it would take more effort to pull off.

Edited March 20, 2014 by Khevar

[Macetheace]

In return, I would ask that you actually respond to people that answered your question above, instead of focusing on those that were critical of your position.

 

I've seen this often enough in public forums. Someone posts a topic that could create a heated response. Some people respond decently (see my first post in this thread), and are overlooked in favor of the more critical ones.

 

Try and direct your thread with your responses. Your more recent posts have shifted your entire debate away from "ethically right to play" into "how to talk to people in a forum."

 

I know, it happens a lot, and is annoying too, i do beg your pardon, I was trying hard to prevent a total derailment so i could get eveyrone having a decent and sensible discussion on the issue, it just also happened that the first few responses were completley off whack and I was trying to quickly stop them before they dominated the topic and eclipse the question i was asking.

 

The idea being that if they were all back on topic, rather than throwing a verbal fist, nore would also in turn respond to your post as well as mine.

 

I suppose this is not dissimilar to arguments I've seen about the movie Ender's Game.

 

"Don't support Orson Scott Card because he is a bad guy, etc."

 

Personally, my philosophy is to have a sub and not spend money on the CM, and that is good enough for me to keep playing. Oh, and to sometimes argue in the forums about the lottery packs.

Well that was what I was doing, as well, but I often find myself asking if i'm being too naiive and just blindly doing things without thinking of their consequences, I've been getting some good advice to think a more thoroughly about the actions I take and the things I do, finding out that your favourite food is made by a company that exploits people halfway across the world for example are one of the many things that are causing me to start considering more carefully what I do and why I do it, and who's behind it. The person who wrote the script is equally as important as the script he wrote, and would influence how I approach both his work and him.

 

Afterall i am responsible for my actions, I don't want to encourage or support things I stand again, so if someone calls into question the integrity of a product I enjoy and use quite regularly especially on hoidays when I'm not working, I kinda feel duty bound to look into it further, maybe what was stupid was starting by asking people in the same boat as me.

Edited March 20, 2014 by Macetheace

[Khevar]

I know, it happens a lot, and is annoying too, i do beg your pardon, I was trying hard to prevent a total derailment so i could get eveyrone having a decent and sensible discussion on the issue, it just also happened that the first few responses were completley off whack and I was trying to quickly stop them before they dominated the topic and eclipse the question i was asking.

Understood. Out of curiosity, what do you think of my point above? My dislike of the Cartel Packs is less about "exploitation", and more about "lazy development".

[Jeweledleah]

AT OP. do you think that lottery is unethical? you know the kind ran by the state - whether its scratch off tickets or trying to guess numbers?

 

because that's all CM is. actualy at least with CM packs, you always get something out of them, while with lottery nearly everyone just loses their money with nothing to show for it.

 

but... you play KNOWING that losing is a possibility, that its random.

[Khevar]

AT OP. do you think that lottery is unethical? you know the kind ran by the state - whether its scratch off tickets or trying to guess numbers?

Wasn't it Bill Nye that described the lottery as a tax on people that don't understand math?

[NoFishing]

This may not be anywhere near the severity of exploitation that comes into play with human trafficking or sweatshops, but I would say it's still a legitimate open question as to whether or not it is a genuine form of exploitation - even if it is a "first world problem" version of it.

 

Addictive like meth? Or addictive like online ****? Because those addictions are nowhere close to having similar societal impacts.

 

In either case, at some level we could be having an argument about whether it is ethical to play because the energy required to power your computer and all those internet hubs causes pollution which harms the environment.

 

So even if MMOs can be addictive for some people, I'm going to say it isn't unethical for companies to make them or for people who enjoy them to play. Same with the cartel packs.

[Sarfux]

It is useless to resist. You will buy what we want you to buy. You will play when we want you to play. Let yourself go of thought. You are here for us.

 

[DarthDymond]

Addictive like meth? Or addictive like online ****? Because those addictions are nowhere close to having similar societal impacts.

 

In either case, at some level we could be having an argument about whether it is ethical to play because the energy required to power your computer and all those internet hubs causes pollution which harms the environment.

 

So even if MMOs can be addictive for some people, I'm going to say it isn't unethical for companies to make them or for people who enjoy them to play. Same with the cartel packs.

I'd say the most direct comparison is between MMO companies and cigarette companies. Potentially harmful to the individual, but a choice we allow consenting adults to make on how to live their lives/spend their money.

 

The ethical issue arises in whether we should allow companies to earn their profits from a practice that knowingly capitalizes on the addictive properties of the product. Or, even if we as a society do allow them to do so, whether I, as an individual, should support them with my personal spending.

 

Personally, I'm okay with both cigarette companies and with MMOs, but again, I don't think it's absurd for someone to have a moral issue with either.

Edited March 20, 2014 by DarthDymond

[theUndead]

are you one of those bioware cultist the guy from the other topic was alluding too? I am clearly asking if you think I should have an ethical issue, you're retorting with "if you have an ethical issue" - completely sidestepping the issue. if you don't think there is an ethical issue, you should explain to me who has yet to take an ethical stance on this why i shoudln't rather than tell me "if i have an ethical issue i shoudln't play"

 

No he is not a Bioware 'Cultist" (What is with all these petty stupid names). And if you look at the post you would see that this is not an ethical issue for him or most people on this thread. So it really comes down this, If you feel the game is shady then stop supporting it.