Wolfninjajedi Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 (edited) I guess this shouldn't be here, so sorry to derail the thread...moving on. We can cover this another time. Edited March 19, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 OK that's great and all, I never expected you to be convinced but Aurbere kept badgering. However you've made a serious fallacy regarding how Force Barriers work, so lets address that. Passive barriers protect against Force-based attacks, that's what they do. What exactly do you think they do? Force pushes are Force based attacks, correct? So passive barriers obviously protect against Force pushes. This is why if Kenobi for example were to Force push Ventress, she'd fly further than Sidious if he received the same Force Push. If you want an example read Darth Bane, in particular the scenes in the academy where Bane fights with various academy students against whom he attempts to Force Push but their passive barriers negate the impact. This is like bread and butter Force mechanics. None of those are usually "Passive" Ventress will fly farther because she wont recover from it as fast using her powers to lessen the blow vs Sidious being much more adept in lessening the blow both will still be hit by it as their passive barriers don't stop them from getting hit. Its their active use of powers to lessen the blow that is the difference. In the case of Bane one this is a question of, Did they use passive barriers or active barriers. If some one is not caught off guard as it sounds here they can root themselves in the Force and counter a Force push. That is not passive that is active. All of these are very Fast active powers, some times instinctual but they are still active. A Passive Force barrier is what some one is like when their guard is down, and no one with their guard down has ever resisted a Force push. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Anakin =/= Vader by any stretch of the imagination, but I'm sure Wolf will tell you that. EDIT: I don't think Savage is as strong as Vader, physically yes, but Vader enhances his strength with the Force. You didn't read the what that post answered did you?. He didn't believe Savage was stronger then Anakin. I put we have proof that he is. His Cybernetics gave him increase strength beyond what he was as Anakin, but I figured that would have closed the gap (the strength of his Force embewed strength did not change from Anakin to Vader only the cybernetic physical change was made) but I have acknowledged that its possible that the Cybernetics put him above Savage. The point is Savage is still stronger then Droma, thus Koon can be at least droma's equal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 None of those are usually "Passive" Ventress will fly farther because she wont recover from it as fast using her powers to lessen the blow vs Sidious being much more adept in lessening the blow both will still be hit by it as their passive barriers don't stop them from getting hit. Its their active use of powers to lessen the blow that is the difference. In the case of Bane one this is a question of, Did they use passive barriers or active barriers. If some one is not caught off guard as it sounds here they can root themselves in the Force and counter a Force push. That is not passive that is active. All of these are very Fast active powers, some times instinctual but they are still active. A Passive Force barrier is what some one is like when their guard is down, and no one with their guard down has ever resisted a Force push.Rooting oneself in the Force is not a barrier technique, that's another kind of power altogether. But anyway. Lets make the distinction between "passive" and "active" barriers because its quite a messy topic. Passive barriers are technically active barriers, we only regard them to be "passive" (a fan made term no less) because they can seemingly be sustained indefinitely and almost subconsciously. Its effectively a sort of invisible energy field that protects you from all Force based attacks, from pushes to chokes to Force lightning. All and any manifestations of the Force which are all consist of the same matter. They are usually called Force Shields or something like that. Now, to quote Darth Bane: ...One of the first lessons Kas'im taught students was how to build a protective shield around themselves in combat to prevent an enemy from using the Force against them. A Force-talent opponent could yank away your lightsaber, knock you off balance, or even extinguish your lightsaber's blade without the touch of a hand or weapon. A Force shield was the most basic - and most necessary - protection there was. It had become instinctive for all apprentices, almost second nature... And a brief example of the passive barriers in action: ...With a last, desperate burst Bane tried to hurl his opponent backward with the dark side. Sirak brushed the impact aside, easily deflecting it with the Force shield he had wrapped himself in at the start of the duel... Most trained Force users, including those at the Sith Academy Bane studied at, learned to "activate" these barriers as second nature. The strength of which is determined by how strong you are in the Force, which is why these barriers can be "broken" by powerful Force Users, and why some Force Users can shrug off such attacks. Active barriers are different, they are temporary and can only be raised for a short period of time. They have to be "raised" mid battle but also offer greater protection both from Force based attacks and physical attacks. The most common application of this is the Protection Bubble, and they are pretty much always visible or depicted as such. Other than this, there are no other types of barriers and there are instances in which you can be completely vulnerable. On the topic of Force pushes however, they are more complex. Because they are in part compressed air and in part pure Force energy. This is why above all other things a Force push pretty much always produces some kind of effect however minor because passive barriers cannot protect against compressed air, which is non-Force based. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 The point is Savage is still stronger then Droma, thus Koon can be at least droma's equal.Or he could just not, that's a perfectly plausible possibility. There is a gap between Koon and Savage's strength after all, and it is quite wide indeed. I expect you could fit a whole boat load of Force Users in there. Utlimately you'll need proper strength and speed feats to support this. Better feats than Droma. Which Koon lacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 (edited) You didn't read the what that post answered did you?. He didn't believe Savage was stronger then Anakin. I put we have proof that he is. His Cybernetics gave him increase strength beyond what he was as Anakin, but I figured that would have closed the gap (the strength of his Force embewed strength did not change from Anakin to Vader only the cybernetic physical change was made) but I have acknowledged that its possible that the Cybernetics put him above Savage. The point is Savage is still stronger then Droma, thus Koon can be at least droma's equal. Anakin still shows to being stronger than Savage even pre-suit. The one instance you spoke of, neither he or Obi-Wan were fighting back and both of them were holding against his blows. Others have held out against Savage's strength such as Dooku, Obi-Wan, and Ventress who aren't as strong as Anakin. But this isn't the place to discuss this really. Edited March 19, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 (edited) Or he could just not, that's a perfectly plausible possibility. There is a gap between Koon and Savage's strength after all, and it is quite wide indeed. I expect you could fit a whole boat load of Force Users in there. Utlimately you'll need proper strength and speed feats to support this. Better feats than Droma. Which Koon lacks. You mean feats both lack. Droma has no better strength feats then Koon either. We don't see the top out of Koon in any fight. Its possible he was able to toe to toe with Savage, we are assuming Savage was stronger. Edited March 19, 2014 by tunewalker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 You mean feats both lack. Droma has no better strength feats then Koon either. We don't see the top out of Koon in any fight. Its possible he was able to toe to toe with Savage, we are assuming Savage was stronger.Its all in the comparison, your just choosing to ignore it for some reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaedusz Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 (edited) Just the fact that Ulic is one of the 2 strongest sith in his time,and recognized by Marga Ragnos and Freedon Nadd should assure his win. Plo Koon is a random Jedi Master, with a well fleshed out character and personality. Exar Kun ,who would wipe the floor with Plo Koon in a blink of an eye ,couldn't defeat Ulic Qel-droma,before the intervention. I would drink a beer with Plo Koon because he is a cool guy,but i would bet my money on Ulic Qel-Droma if they fight. The way you guys break down the characters to abilities and what exactly would they do in a given situation is an interesting read,but i think you all know the truth in your heart. Ulic Qel-Droma> Plo Koon. Edited March 19, 2014 by Kaedusz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Yes Plo was just a random Jedi Master at the golden age of the Jedi Order.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted March 19, 2014 Author Share Posted March 19, 2014 Regarding strength, Plo Koon put Savage on the defensive at the start of their duel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaedusz Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 (edited) Yes Plo was just a random Jedi Master at the golden age of the Jedi Order.... Yes it's a plus for him to live in those times and it adds to his power(i don't think so ,but for the sake of the argument).Still it wouldn't help him in a fight vs Ulic Qel-Droma. Edited March 19, 2014 by Kaedusz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted March 19, 2014 Author Share Posted March 19, 2014 Yes it's a plus for him to live in those times.But it wouldn't help him in a fight vs Ulic Qel-Droma. It is a two-way street. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Regarding strength, Plo Koon put Savage on the defensive at the start of their duel.Because Savage lacks skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Because Savage lacks skill. He just beat Fisto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted March 19, 2014 Author Share Posted March 19, 2014 Because Savage lacks skill. It was a power strike. Straight up power strike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Yes Plo was just a random Jedi Master at the golden age of the Jedi Order...."Golden Age of the Jedi Order" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 (edited) He just beat Fisto Through strength. But I think he probably would have beaten Fisto, maybe.It was a power strike. Straight up power strike.I don't understand, Plo Koon attacked with a power strike and Savage went on the defensive? Well duh. Edited March 19, 2014 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 (edited) /Bites tongue... Nope, nope... Edited March 19, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted March 19, 2014 Author Share Posted March 19, 2014 I don't understand, Plo Koon attacked with a power strike and Savage went on the defensive? Well duh. He put Savage Opress on the defensive. That's the point. Savage is like super-strong and stuffz... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 He put Savage Opress on the defensive. That's the point. Savage is like super-strong and stuffz...He caused Savage to defend himself. I award no points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted March 19, 2014 Author Share Posted March 19, 2014 He caused Savage to defend himself. I award no points. But- but the super strongz! So strong, much muscles... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 (edited) but- but the super strongz! So strong, much muscles... :D:D I lol'd Edited March 19, 2014 by Selenial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted March 22, 2014 Author Share Posted March 22, 2014 I'll start taking final arguments now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted March 22, 2014 Share Posted March 22, 2014 Well I don't have a lot of information on them so I'll base it on what i know. They are very much alike, but I think Plo would win. First he is a "veteran" of two war with 400 years of experience and he has more useful force abilities that he can exploit in this duel, enough to tip the balance in his favour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts