I hereby demand to add Retro Thusters to the Quell and Pike.

[Sindariel]

Reason?

 

The incoming nerf to engine components!

 

The Quell/Pike has only 2 engine components to evade missiles. Koiogran Turn and Barrel Roll.

 

Koiogran Turn is by far the worst engine component and well known as the "suicide button". It doesn't give you any offensive or defensive benefit in combat and people don't use it for good reasons.

 

This only leaves us with Barrel Roll as a viable choice, but with the increased activation cost and the longer cooldown (compared to other engine components) in the next patch, our survivability on this ship will be more hurt than on any other ship.

This is why we need another viable choice of engine components.

 

Why exactly Retro Thrusters?

 

They require the least amount of work to implement since they are already available on the type 1 strike fighters Rycer and Starguard. They just need to copy-paste the existing engine models to the Quell and Pike.

 

They'd also give us the most benefit out of all engine components, because they make getting a missile lock-on much easier and missiles are our most important tool on the Quell and Pike after all..

Edited March 14, 2014 by Sindariel

[Nemarus]

Seems reasonable, and good point about Retro Thrusters having good synergy with missiles.

 

That being said, is K-Turn that suicidal? Isn't it a pretty constrained 180 turn? I'd think Power Dive, Barrel roll and Retro Thrusters are the most dangerous in contained places, since they result in moving your ship.

[Altheran]

That being said, is K-Turn that suicidal?

 

Nope. Koiogran Turn and Retro Thrusters do basically the same thing beside changing or not the direction you're facing.

One don't disrupt what you were doing, the other one allows special tactics in one button, like fleeing or switching target, jousting back.

[Sindariel]

Seems reasonable, and good point about Retro Thrusters having good synergy with missiles.

 

That being said, is K-Turn that suicidal? Isn't it a pretty constrained 180 turn? I'd think Power Dive, Barrel roll and Retro Thrusters are the most dangerous in contained places, since they result in moving your ship.

 

The issue with Koiogran is (at least for me), that it also rotates your ship in addition to the U-Turn. This causes me to always feel kind of "disoriented" and it also has a very huge and hard to predict turn radius.

To use Barrel Roll, you just have to aim for open space and push the button.

I haven't tested Power Dive, so i can't say anything about that.

 

Nope. Koiogran Turn and Retro Thrusters do basically the same thing beside changing or not the direction you're facing.

 

Not in the slightest. They work entirely different and are simply not comparable.

Edited March 14, 2014 by Sindariel

[FridgeLM]

I use shield power converter.

 

Missile breaks are for babies.

[mr_sim]

As the person who puts Retro Thrusters on any ship I can, I'm naturally all for this.

 

However Koriagan Turn is not as you say and is by far my second choice for strike fighters. It is indeed very useful and IMO less suicide button then Retros.

 

Barrel Roll for me is the worst of both worlds, for me it's equal to Retro Thrusters for suicide and it doesn't give superior position on your opponent. Yes it does send you long distances fast but your still going in the same direction which is no help for most of my play style.

 

I use Retros often to increase my time on target, this could equal an evil amount of Cluster missiles coming out of my Quell. Not so big a deal perhaps as you can do the same on Rycer, but it is something to consider against the big picture.

 

On Quell open with Protons > Cluster missiles > Lasers > Retros > Cluster missiles > Lasers

[Slivovidze]

I use shield power converter.

 

Missile breaks are for babies.

 

My hero

 

Anyways, while I see where are you going, I need to mention that Koiogran turn is widely used, OP just kinda tends to quallify themselves as "everyone". Secondly, Quell and Pike don't have Retros for just that reason. They are feared missile warships, and if they had Retros to support their double missiles, they would be the death on the road.

 

Why don't you ask for Power Dive instead? 10s cooldown missile lock?

Seriously though, I think it's gonna be fine. The nerfhammer will be the same for everyone except the damn bombers, here.

[mr_sim]

I use shield power converter.

 

Missile breaks are for babies.

 

IMO if you have Engine power to spare your doing it wrong. I use engine abilities to:

- Break attempted locks, I find most fail to break successful locks

- Gain superior position on enemy.

- Break off from enemy and return to node after firing torpedoes.

[FridgeLM]

IMO if you have Engine power to spare your doing it wrong. I use engine abilities to:

- Break attempted locks, I find most fail to break successful locks

- Gain superior position on enemy.

- Break off from enemy and return to node after firing torpedoes.

 

I use my engine ability (SPC) to:

- Not die.

 

My build is specifically centered around long term survivability.

[Altheran]

Not in the slightest. They work entirely different and are simply not comparable.

 

It doesn't make you perform a big loop with a triple spin. You almost don't move during the turn, then move forward while the ship stabilizes... Putting you at the same place than if you had used Retro Thrusters. The only noticeable difference is that you have a momentum that you have to care about when estimating the space available behind you before using. They're very similar otherwise.

Edited March 14, 2014 by Altheran

[Slivovidze]

IMO if you have Engine power to spare your doing it wrong. I use engine abilities to:

- Break attempted locks, I find most fail to break successful locks

- Gain superior position on enemy.

- Break off from enemy and return to node after firing torpedoes.

 

He didn't quite say he has engine power to spare. See, the converter itself adds 15% to the shield power. Paired with Directional Shield, it is insanely hard to kill the wielder, unless you manage to unleash a barrage of Protons on them. It is THE tanky build, and trust me that they don't have that much engine power to spare, as they need to dodge missile locks manually. Boosting around cover eats lots of power, yup.

Mr. Fridge's message might encourage some to actually try and develop new builds, now when Barrel Roll is going to be "useless".

[mr_sim]

I use my engine ability (SPC) to:

- Not die.

 

My build is specifically centered around long term survivability.

 

If it works for you so be it.

 

I run out of engine power more then anything else and have power to engines most of the time, especially in TDM. I simply don't have power to spare one converters, even my bomber doesn't get SPC again just never power to spare.

 

There are some vicious players on Jedi Covenant and no amount of mitigation boost is enough to survive their concentrated fire, you hit your boosters and evade or your dead. Using Engine abilities to get them off your tail is also important.

[Slivovidze]

There are some vicious players on Jedi Covenant and no amount of mitigation boost is enough to survive their concentrated fire, you hit your boosters and evade or your dead. Using Engine abilities to get them off your tail is also important.

 

Trust me, these are everywhere. And the guys using the tanky build, they know what they are doing. And they will survive the concentrated fire more often than not. Don't ask me how, because I also didn't quite find my way to the tank build, but they do.

Edited March 14, 2014 by Slivovidze

[Morgrid]

Why exactly Retro Thrusters?

 

They require the least amount of work to implement since they are already available on the type 1 strike fighters Rycer and Starguard. They just need to copy-paste the existing engine models to the Quell and Pike.

 

They'd also give us the most benefit out of all engine components, because they make getting a missile lock-on much easier and missiles are our most important tool on the Quell and Pike after all..

 

No. Work with what you're given.

 

Adapt or be removed.

 

I use shield power converter.

 

Missile breaks are for babies.

 

I like the way this man thinks.

Edited March 14, 2014 by Morgrid

[Armonddd]

No. Work with what you're given.

 

Adapt or be removed.

 

and then suddenly poorly thought out nerfs with no compensation

 

at least give them power dive :/

[Sindariel]

However Koriagan Turn is not as you say and is by far my second choice for strike fighters. It is indeed very useful and IMO less suicide button then Retros.

 

Barrel Roll for me is the worst of both worlds, for me it's equal to Retro Thrusters for suicide and it doesn't give superior position on your opponent. Yes it does send you long distances fast but your still going in the same direction which is no help for most of my play style.

 

Retros just boost you backwards to the position you were a second ago and for barrel roll, you just have to aim for a direction with no obstacles in front of you. How can any of these cause you to suicide? (Except you are flying with closed eyes)

 

Nope. Koiogran Turn and Retro Thrusters do basically the same thing beside changing or not the direction you're facing.

 

Anyways, while I see where are you going, I need to mention that Koiogran turn is widely used, OP just kinda tends to quallify themselves as "everyone". Secondly, Quell and Pike don't have Retros for just that reason. They are feared missile warships, and if they had Retros to support their double missiles, they would be the death on the road.

 

Why don't you ask for Power Dive instead? 10s cooldown missile lock?

 

Koiogran turn is only "widely" used by newbies who have it unlocked by default.

I don't know any experienced pilot who's using it or would recommed using it.

 

And just beacuse this ship doesn't have retros yet, doesn't automaticaly mean that there's a specific reason for it. Type 2 gunships also didn't have directional shields in the beginning. They were added later, when the existing shield options proved as insufficient.

 

I would also be fine with Power Dive, to be honest. I just want another "better" alternative to Koiogran Turn. The main reason why i suggested Retros is simply, because they require the least amount of work to implement. Their synergy with the Quell/Pike is just the icing on top of it.

 

It doesn't make you perform a big loop with a triple spin. You almost don't move during the turn, then move forward while the ship stabilizes... Putting you at the same place than if you had used Retro Thrusters. The only noticeable difference is that you have a momentum that you have to care about when estimating the space available behind you before using. They're very similar otherwise.

 

I haven't used Koiogran Turn for ages, but as far as i remember, it boosts you slightly forward, then upwards in a U-Turn while rotating the ship by 180° and then forward again into the direction you came from, but above your previous position.

So, you basically have to look out for obstacles above you and behind the position above you.

Correct me if i'm wrong.

 

 

And for all those people who think i'm just a fanboy of Retro Thrusters who wants them badly on his Quell/Pike:

You're totally wrong!

I don't use Retros on any of my ships actually. Barrel roll is my personal choice and will probably still be after the nerf.

However, with the incoming changes, i suspect a lot of players to switch to other alternatives and Retros will most likely be their first choice (if available).

I'd be happy too, if they'd make the other alternatives more predictable and less difficult to use.

[Altheran]

I haven't used Koiogran Turn for ages, but as far as i remember, it boosts you slightly forward, then upwards in a U-Turn while rotating the ship by 180° and then forward again into the direction you came from, but above your previous position.

So, you basically have to look out for obstacles above you and behind the position above you.

Correct me if i'm wrong.

I admit there's a slight vertical movement, but so little that it never cause crashes unless you have your "roof" almost sliding walls. As for the front space, I estimate it to be only 100m or 200m.

 

So while its true there are in theory, more variables, in practical, as long you do not use it in extreme conditions (like in the Imperial ship debris in Lost Shipyards TDM), you can afford to not even think about them.

Edited March 14, 2014 by Altheran

[jtrick]

I'd love to have retros, but I actually like Koio turn too. Especially with the poor turning on strikes, the ability to do a quick 180 and boost out of there can be useful. I also find it less suicide-y than Barrel Roll, once you get the hang of it.

[Morgrid]

 

Koiogran turn is only "widely" used by newbies who have it unlocked by default.

I don't know any experienced pilot who's using it or would recommed using it.

 

 

I'm an experienced pilot and I use the daylights out of K turn.

 

And Power Dive.

 

But Power Dive is just fun to use.

[Ramalina]

Well, retro thrusters would make close range proton torpedo shots a heck of a lot easier. Once the really good pilots latched onto that, you'd have a chance at Pike/Quell becoming FOTM and generating QQ threads.

 

You could do Ion missiles before a missile that does serious damage, maybe land P-torps from less than 1.5 km on a regular basis. do P-torp - Cluster - Quads triple plays at close range.

 

Yeah, there's a reason they're not gonna do that.

 

Skilled pilot + retro + type 2 strike fighter = unbalanced buff to type 2 strike fighter.

 

Besides, the barrel roll nerf is a buff for the Pike and Quell, those bastards in Scouts and Gunships won't be able to break missile lock on everything anymore.

 

Also Koigran is fine, it's just a more defensive move where Retro is more of an offensive move.

 

In other threads I've gone on at length what I think of power dive, but for here I'll limit comments to needs (lots of) work.

[Zharik]

Koiogran Turn is great for a "dog fighter" build (striker or scout), Barrel Roll is great for mobility (until 2.7 anyway) and retro is great for extending a "joust".

 

To the OP, you may "demand" anything you want, but how does that translate to $ for the company providing this game?

[Armonddd]

To the OP, you may "demand" anything you want, but how does that translate to $ for the company providing this game?

 

People quitting because of questionable balance directly translates to a lack of income. It can also mean poor reviews, which leads to more lack of income.

 

I've already cancelled my sub, though it won't run out for a while, because of changes like this.

[Zoom_VI]

and then suddenly poorly thought out nerfs with no compensation

 

at least give them power dive :/

 

Well barrel roll was getting a bit ridiculous, particularly once you start seeing like every single ace on the server running it regardless of ship class.

[Armonddd]

Well barrel roll was getting a bit ridiculous, particularly once you start seeing like every single ace on the server running it regardless of ship class.

 

Nop, I've never liked it.

[Pilgrim_Grey]

Nop, I've never liked it.

 

While I don't like it either, you still did see it on a lot of builds and it was overly abused to be maneuverable.

 

For the OP, I can get preferring Retro Thrusters, but you're really covering your head in the sand about Koiogran (or Snap Turn, they're not all that different). They just have slightly different functions or purposes, and I use Koiogran all the time to continue a fight or get away from a mismatch. I'm definitely aiming to get retro on my Starguard and other ships that have it to see how I like it there, but I'm still going to interchange it with Koiogran depending on how I feel like flying.

 

It has its uses, but in an actual dogfight, I often feel like Barrel Roll is the one that's more of a disadvantage if you want to continue the fight. It's great for getting in or getting out, but not for the "in the middle of it" stuff. It's also harder to use in tight spaces... but I'm sure that's partially me. We all have our own foibles, and I always misjudge how far that thing is going to fling me forward.