The cartel market is sucking the fun out of this game

[Lugosi]

Someone refutes the example. You stick your fingers in your ears. Nice.

 

Their refutation was extremely weak.

 

They quote one line from the OP, offer up an example of something that isn't even in the game yet as their evidence, and when it is available, only a very small population will even see it. You really going to call that a refutal on the actual argument presented by the OP?

 

For every item they link, I can link ten items that come from the CM. Guess who is going to run out of links first?

 

I wasn't sticking my fingers in my ear, I was introducing the pot to the kettle.

[CosmicKat]

Underlined the hyperbole, fiction and spin part for you.

 

When did WoW change its existing world PVE prior to Cataclysm, which came out 6 years after launch?

When did Star Trek Online change it's existing world PVE prior to updating the Federation tutorial 3 years after launch?

When did Everquest or Age of Conan or Warhammer Online change their existing world PVE?

 

MMOs usually add new content alongside the existing content, rather than changing what's already in place.

 

If you're talking about different things to do while leveling, that's why SWTOR added new leveling options like KDY and GSF.

 

If you're talking about growing the established world, that's what SWTOR did by adding new areas to existing planets like Black Hole and Section X, and new tasks to be performed in existing zones like the Seeker Droid and Macro-binocular Quests and dig sites, or the Tauntaun Data Collection.

 

Everquest changed drastically in their first two years.

 

City of Heroes added/changed more in two years than most MMO's will do in their entire existence.

 

Champions Online completely rebuilt the game world, quests, and classes within the first year.

 

DDO, Anarchy Online, Asheron's Call, SWG, UO, and so on... all made drastic changes in the first two years.

 

 

WoW... played it for 15 minutes.

STO and Warhammer... Never tried either.

[Vandicus]

Why would we want SWTOR to dramatically revamp their existing leveling experience? Aside from QoL, extra flashpoints, and alternate methods of leveling like they've done so far. There's nothing glaringly wrong with the planetary story arcs or class stories, so I'm not comprehending why we'd want those changed.

[Slicka]

Everquest changed drastically in their first two years.

 

City of Heroes added/changed more in two years than most MMO's will do in their entire existence.

 

Champions Online completely rebuilt the game world, quests, and classes within the first year.

 

DDO, Anarchy Online, Asheron's Call, SWG, UO, and so on... all made drastic changes in the first two years.

 

 

WoW... played it for 15 minutes.

STO and Warhammer... Never tried either.

 

WOW's was an expansion that was released at the peak of their subscriber base. You're talking about 12 million subs at the time that they went for it. They had new technology and actually thought they could decrease the difficulty in the learning curve for those trying it. It worked. As I said, they did it at the right time that 95% of MMOs will never see in there lifetime. (Got to leave that 5% incase an MMO ever does somehow miraculously reach it).

[CosmicKat]

Why would we want SWTOR to dramatically revamp their existing leveling experience? Aside from QoL, extra flashpoints, and alternate methods of leveling like they've done so far. There's nothing glaringly wrong with the planetary story arcs or class stories, so I'm not comprehending why we'd want those changed.

 

80% of the customers quitting within the first 6 months is not indicative enough that something isn't right?

[Vandicus]

80% of the customers quitting within the first 6 months is not indicative enough that something isn't right?

 

Isn't assuming that the acclaimed leveling experience was the problem sort of a shot in the dark? I can't conclusively say that it wasn't the reason people left the game, but its certainly not the top of my list of suspects. Also, since retaining people who have left is no longer possible, do you believe revamping the leveling experience would draw in significantly more people or cause those who have left to return? I would expect that expansion on the current leveling experience would be cheaper and more effective.

[DarthDymond]

Everquest changed drastically in their first two years.

 

City of Heroes added/changed more in two years than most MMO's will do in their entire existence.

 

Champions Online completely rebuilt the game world, quests, and classes within the first year.

 

DDO, Anarchy Online, Asheron's Call, SWG, UO, and so on... all made drastic changes in the first two years.

 

 

WoW... played it for 15 minutes.

STO and Warhammer... Never tried either.

I wasn't claiming that there has never "in the history of MMOs" been a game that did change during its first two years. I was pointing out that you, in fact, dipped into hyperbole and spin when you said that SWTOR was "perhaps the first time in the history of MMOs" that one did not. (I will own up to poor word choice on my part though: I should have said something like "often" instead of "usually" in my post.)

 

I personally have never played CoH, CO, DDO, AO, AC, or UO so for all I know you could be making those examples up - but I do know that FF-XIV did a massive revamp soon after launch, so I have no problem at all agreeing that it does happen (although I wonder if the lion's share aren't for the same reason as FF-XIV: "Oh crap, what we've got now sucks! Quick someone fix this mess!").

 

So now that we've established that some games do revamp their world PVE within 2 years and some games do not revamp their world PVE within 2 years, the question is: "Which path should SWTOR follow?" And I think Vandicus summed that topic up well:

Why would we want SWTOR to dramatically revamp their existing leveling experience? Aside from QoL, extra flashpoints, and alternate methods of leveling like they've done so far. There's nothing glaringly wrong with the planetary story arcs or class stories, so I'm not comprehending why we'd want those changed.

Edited March 11, 2014 by DarthDymond

[EzioMessi]

Why would we want SWTOR to dramatically revamp their existing leveling experience? Aside from QoL, extra flashpoints, and alternate methods of leveling like they've done so far. There's nothing glaringly wrong with the planetary story arcs or class stories, so I'm not comprehending why we'd want those changed.

 

I agree with this. The levelling experience is brilliant. Feels like a grind? Nope. Not one bit. Maybe those who skip every cutscene feel it is too grindy, but the levelling experience is amazing. Add more to it? Tactical FPs and the sort? Definitely yes.

 

Revamp it completely? Umm.. no.

Edited March 11, 2014 by EzioMessi

[Slicka]

I agree with this. The levelling experience is brilliant. Feels like a grind? Nope. Not one bit. Maybe those who skip every cutscene feel it is too grindy, but the levelling experience is amazing. Add more to it? Tactical FPs and the sort? Definitely yes.

 

Revamp it completely? Umm.. no.

 

You ever want to feel leveling as a grindfest? Play Tera. Every single quest is the exact same. Kill 15 of this enemy, or kill 10 of this enemy. Only reason I'm even playing right now is because of friends. SWTOR definitely has a much better leveling experience.

[Arkerus]

80% of the customers quitting within the first 6 months is not indicative enough that something isn't right?

 

You keep sticking to that like it means something. And since when was 500k of 2 million an 80% loss? Lol. It is cute...and meaningless now. But keep it up!

 

Oh...and here you are. Paying your dime.

[Arkerus]

Everquest changed drastically in their first two years.

 

City of Heroes added/changed more in two years than most MMO's will do in their entire existence.

 

Champions Online completely rebuilt the game world, quests, and classes within the first year.

 

DDO, Anarchy Online, Asheron's Call, SWG, UO, and so on... all made drastic changes in the first two years.

 

 

WoW... played it for 15 minutes.

STO and Warhammer... Never tried either.

 

Ps. I looked at some old changes to those games and very few on the list actually changed the leveling experience. I love how you treat expansions as change to the leveling experience. Like I said. Where do you come up with this stuff? I mean you no direspect but you are woefully wrong many, many times.

[kirorx]

It filled a gap. The gap was all the damage dealers complaining that they suck too bad at playing to ever try tanking or healing, or to get on the friend lists of tanks and healers, and therefore have queues of infinite duration.

 

Now, with this one flashpoint, those damage dealers can queue very quickly.

 

The rest of us, those competent enough to tank or heal or deal damage well in groups in flashpoints that require thought and skill, we still have our 6 or 8 or whatever hard modes, right? Or did they take those away?

 

Is that your complaint? You have no hard modes to do?

 

Sometimes, in an MMO, players of differing styles from ourselves get stuff too.

 

You just argue to argue buddy.

 

What a shame you we can't have a conversation

[CosmicKat]

You keep sticking to that like it means something. And since when was 500k of 2 million an 80% loss? Lol. It is cute...and meaningless now. But keep it up!

 

Oh...and here you are. Paying your dime.

 

They sold 2.5 million boxes. Just because 20% of them didn't subscribe beyond the free month, doesn't mean they don't count. They dropped below 500k before F2P. You do the math.

[DarthTHC]

You just argue to argue buddy.

 

What a shame you we can't have a conversation

 

When you're ready to have a rational discussion that takes into consideration the breadth of an MMO plus the constraints under which the development team has to function, please let me know.

Edited March 11, 2014 by DarthTHC

[danielearley]

I Play the game because I enjoy playing the game, the CM is just fluff to make you look nice.

 

There is still gear that you can only get from running Nightmare OPs and other FP, these are items you may not find fashionable but it is something to strive for and achieve.

 

Just because you like something on CM doesn't mean there isn't something equally nice found in one of the OPs or FP, it's just your opinion on how you want to look, I ran maybe 40 HM FP with a guildie because he really wanted the Pristine Paragon Chestplece, so there are many people who will actually put the effort in to get a certain piece of gear.

 

The CM is good because it gives you the chance to get things quickly to give the look you want , if there was no CM what do you propose a jumble sale on the fleet to go pick up any gear you fancy???

[mikebevo]

Don't see the big deal, don't like cartel market stuff, just ignore it. It isn't rocket science, it is just a game.

[CosmicKat]

....

 

The CM is good because it gives you the chance to get things quickly to give the look you want , if there was no CM what do you propose a jumble sale on the fleet to go pick up any gear you fancy???

 

Some options...

 

- rewards for completing missions/Heroics/Flashpoints

- random loot drops

- World Boss loot drops

- Social armor vendor items

- craftable armor

- rewards for completing story chapters

- rewards for completing companion quests

- rewards for completing bonus series quests

- rewards for unlocking achievements

- rewards for unlocking Light/Darkside ranks

- sold by vendors for credits/planetary comms

[danielearley]

Some options...

 

- rewards for completing missions/Heroics/Flashpoints

- random loot drops

- World Boss loot drops

- Social armor vendor items

- craftable armor

- rewards for completing story chapters

- rewards for completing companion quests

- rewards for completing bonus series quests

- rewards for unlocking achievements

- rewards for unlocking Light/Darkside ranks

- sold by vendors for credits/planetary comms

 

We get most of these already???? It's just you don't like some of those.....

 

And how does your suggestion get you what you want quickly?

Edited March 11, 2014 by danielearley

[Slicka]

We get most of these already???? It's just you don't like some of those.....

 

And how does your suggestion get you what you want quickly?

 

Actually what CosmicKat is suggesting is one reason why I don't particularly like modding adaptive armour. It has it's benefits like being able to equip the look you want your character to have, but it's downfall means less unique loot. In most cases, the only reason players run OPs for example is the challenge, and for the mods in said loot. If the loot looks great, fantastic. But if it doesn't, you're just stripping them out and throwing them in your own armour that you wanted. This allows the CM to be very successful because it can adhere to this capability.

 

In most games, they don't have a similar modding system to SWTOR. If you play WOW, Tera, etc, you earn said loot and the stats are permanent on the loot. All you can add is some minor enchants that may give it a glow, and gem sockets. This allows their cash shop to focus on cosmetics like mounts. If SWTOR's modding system didn't exist, you'd see a lot more running high-end end-game content for those that care about bettering their character. The armour would also have a sense of achievement as you can run across any player without having to inspect them to know they've run HM DP for instance. The only way you realize that in this game is if said player kept said look.

 

This won't ever happen because removing such a system would cost to much, and would upset too many players to make it worth it. That is why some of CosmicKat's suggestions make sense if the CM didn't exist, as well as our current modding system.

[danielearley]

Their refutation was extremely weak.

 

They quote one line from the OP, offer up an example of something that isn't even in the game yet as their evidence, and when it is available, only a very small population will even see it. You really going to call that a refutal on the actual argument presented by the OP?

 

For every item they link, I can link ten items that come from the CM. Guess who is going to run out of links first?

 

I wasn't sticking my fingers in my ear, I was introducing the pot to the kettle.

 

You obviously never thought about your comment before posting. There are far more items in the game than in the CM, you also might find that a lot of the CM items are re-skins of items already in the game!

 

I've not checked this but it would appear that every FP has 4 Modable gear sets per faction, I can't be bothered to count up how many FP there are, but that is a lot of different Gear Sets, this is not including all the different gear drops there are on all the planets.

[danielearley]

Actually what CosmicKat is suggesting is one reason why I don't particularly like modding adaptive armour. It has it's benefits like being able to equip the look you want your character to have, but it's downfall means less unique loot. In most cases, the only reason players run OPs for example is the challenge, and for the mods in said loot. If the loot looks great, fantastic. But if it doesn't, you're just stripping them out and throwing them in your own armour that you wanted. This allows the CM to be very successful because it can adhere to this capability.

 

In most games, they don't have a similar modding system to SWTOR. If you play WOW, Tera, etc, you earn said loot and the stats are permanent on the loot. All you can add is some minor enchants that may give it a glow, and gem sockets. This allows their cash shop to focus on cosmetics like mounts. If SWTOR's modding system didn't exist, you'd see a lot more running high-end end-game content for those that care about bettering their character. The armour would also have a sense of achievement as you can run across any player without having to inspect them to know they've run HM DP for instance. The only way you realize that in this game is if said player kept said look.

 

This won't ever happen because removing such a system would cost to much, and would upset too many players to make it worth it. That is why some of CosmicKat's suggestions make sense if the CM didn't exist, as well as our current modding system.

 

We would also lose the individuality you can have by selecting what gear to wear, I remember running with everyone wearing Rataka gear, it's a little boring to be honest.

[DarthOvertone]

I disagree with the OP. I think the Cartel Market makes the game more fun. Just for amusement I shop for Cartel Market stuff on the GTN all the time. It's actually interesting to see some of the neat stuff BW comes up with. For instance, I just bought the Kick Ball emote for all of my Toons. Why? Because it makes Huttball more fun and I love Huttball.

 

I browse the Cartel Market itself all the time, but I rarely buy stuff from there. I mean, I actually do want to buy stuff, but everything interesting can be bought for credits in game so I rarely use my Cartel Coins. I have millions in credits that I would likely never spend otherwise. Thankfully, there is lots of CM related stuff to unlock or buy with credits. I've purchased tons of CM stuff for my toons and unlocked almost every Account and Legacy thing I can.

[Slicka]

We would also lose the individuality you can have by selecting what gear to wear, I remember running with everyone wearing Rataka gear, it's a little boring to be honest.

 

Yes, there are pros and cons to both. Personally, I like WOW's system over SWTOR's, but that's just me. I can certainly understand why other players like the current system.

[Lugosi]

You obviously never thought about your comment before posting. There are far more items in the game than in the CM, you also might find that a lot of the CM items are re-skins of items already in the game!

 

I've not checked this but it would appear that every FP has 4 Modable gear sets per faction, I can't be bothered to count up how many FP there are, but that is a lot of different Gear Sets, this is not including all the different gear drops there are on all the planets.

 

I thought about my comment before I posted, and my comment still stands. Most of these items you speak that are in the game are the same stale items that have been in the game since launch. I don't think I agree with you that there is more of them either at this point. Search the GTN for adaptable armor, mounts, pets, dyes, and weapons. Now check the ratio of cartel items vs non-cartel items. I don't know this for fact, but I have a hunch there will be more CM items.

 

I am not asking for the CM to go away, I know that is unrealistic. What we want are more items that drop from actually playing the game. I would be happy with just a small portion of them, 25% or less, going into the game as drops rather than buying it from the CM. I'm not talking in abundance here either. These would have the same chance of dropping as some of the rarer items like Vendetta and Supreme Inquisitor sets.

 

As for re-skins in the CM, sure their are a few. However, how many of these re-skins are re-skins that originated in the CM to begin with and how many originated as in game drops?

 

As for the FP comment, I am not sure about that, I would have to check. You are probably correct though, seems like there would be one set for each class from each FP. I don't think they all have full sets, but your point is valid none the less.

[CosmicKat]

We get most of these already???? It's just you don't like some of those.....

 

And how does your suggestion get you what you want quickly?

 

I was suggesting ways that gear could be added to the game without having a Cash Shop.