Save GSF before it flops

[Fractalsponge]

Make it cross sever, and turn on matchmaking. Almost all problems solved.

[ptwonline]

Make it cross sever, and turn on matchmaking. Almost all problems solved.

 

A lot of the damage is already done. The imbalance between factions on Shadowlands is quite large now, and I think is going to persist for a long, long time.

 

Launching GSF without better matchmaking (cross-server or not) was a huge and easily predictable mistake.

Edited March 7, 2014 by ptwonline

[mattycutts]

Dude, you may believe the BS that you wrote. But face me in an new ship and see what happens.. The new players are deff under the gun, and the match making dose not help them one bit. don't believe me.. come to pot5, challenge bwulf/octi ill show you how good you are in a new ship, and post it to utube..

 

im a EU player but ill create a new char on pot5 but ill not tell u name so its a normal match and ill link the results of your well modified ships against my unmodified ship.

 

btw only other night started a new char for gsf and did 3 matches, 2 of the 3 matches i was in top 3 damage, top 3 objectives, top 3 kills/assists.

 

mods are nice but doesnt make u a good pilot. if you spend enough time on every ship u know what to do and alot that are in full modified ships dont do as well.

 

and one of them matches had some of the nominated aces of my server on that i out performed in my unmodified ship.

[TheOldDruid]

Yeah well, you were clearly abusing the shield to engine component. Bloody min-maxer.

If you can achieve those numbers solo pugging, in a new ship, while being matched against players in mastered ships.. Then good on you . very few can make that claim.

As Brewski stated in an earlier post. Its not the ships that are the problem. Its the matchup. I have spent this entire week exclusively flying the Imp side, trying to determine why my Pub side stats are just incredibly better re the win/loss, than my Imp char. It is clearly the failure of a matchmaking system. I have been in matches where 4 of your guild and 4 of another guild, plus 2 pugs, were pitted against 8 new imps, and 2 average players, like myself. I still have some fun, as I will claim victory over 1 or 2, and will have done decent damage, considering the imbalance. But the other 8 players did not enjoy the match, they did not get much if anything out of it, and some of them probably said 'hell with this' , as they don't appear in the Q's afterward.

It is not the fault of the guilds doing the pre-made, some of whom also use voice chat. It is not the fault of the pugs that form groups, several of whom advertise the use of voice chat while forming in general chat. It is the fault of the SWTOR DEV's, for not including a matchmaking system in GSF as they have always had in ground based PVP. Could you imagine the uproar, the subscriber cancellations, that would occur if ground based PVP matches followed the current GSF method of matching. Why should space based PVP be treated differently?

I have seen these new pilots do well, in matches that are somewhat balanced. Even the tone in OP's chat is more up beat, even if they lose. Occasionally, depending on the time of night, the Imp side can have the clear overpower advantage over the Pub side. Even in same faction matches, the matchmaking algorithms seem to place power on one side and new on the other. Anyway.. lets have fun, until they fix it or it self destructs.

Oh yea, in case you missed it. I think voice chat should be banned in all PVP. Its cheating.

[TheOldDruid]

Well Matty, not that I was really issuing a challenge to anyone, but trying to point out something: If you should choose to make a new char on POT5, make an Imp char. Send me a tell with your chars name, I will fly with you, not against you. And if you fly in the afternoons (EST, Zulu -5), there is an excellent chance you (we) will find ourselves in a sever mismatch. And believe this.. If you are able to post 10+ kills and 20-30k damage in that new, un upgraded ship, perhaps you will be the inspiration that these new colony pilots need..

Personally, I don't think you'll do much better than your side did against the German aces..

[zaskar]

Well Matty, not that I was really issuing a challenge to anyone, but trying to point out something: If you should choose to make a new char on POT5, make an Imp char. Send me a tell with your chars name, I will fly with you, not against you. And if you fly in the afternoons (EST, Zulu -5), there is an excellent chance you (we) will find ourselves in a sever mismatch. And believe this.. If you are able to post 10+ kills and 20-30k damage in that new, un upgraded ship, perhaps you will be the inspiration that these new colony pilots need..

Personally, I don't think you'll do much better than your side did against the German aces..

 

I do that all the time, to tell the truth, I seem to do better in bone stock scouts and strikes. I've been testing on other servers and pot5 collecting data before I opened my big mouth with this thread.

 

There is nothing wrong with a stock ship, it is the piloting experience that is required.

 

I'll state the argument points again in very simple terms.

 

1. New pilots have zero idea what is going on, get shot down quick
   
2. New pilot wants to learn, tries again. No queue, quits
   
3. New pilot tries much later, sees same competitors, tries again, dies
   
4. New player tries again sees same names, quits
   
5. Experienced players yawn the entire time playing crap ships or alts because they are bored, eventually quits
   

 

On pot5 we have a pilot channel on each side, we use it all the time and tell new pilots to join and ask questions. Very few do. I asked on other servers for a like channel and all I got was clique protecting hostility. This is not the answer anyways, there is no way to make that scale If the community becomes healthy much less large. Why do you think that mmos limit guild numbers? Do you really think the databases will choke on more than 500 rows?

Edited March 7, 2014 by zaskar
Spelling

[Armonddd]

Oh yea, in case you missed it. I think voice chat should be banned in all PVP. Its cheating.

 

next you'll say that we should all play at 800x600 and throttle our bandwidth to whatever the minimum specifications are, and of course the SWTOR naga should be banned

 

please don't be ridiculous

[Armonddd]

Why do you think that mmos limit guild numbers? Do you really think the databases will choke on more than 500 rows?

 

I certainly wouldn't be surprised, given the track records of some of these companies. But I don't know enough about databases to say whether the servers will have loading issues past such a low threshold, because I don't know how often these databases are loaded and/or searched.

[TheOldDruid]

I don't disagree with anything that you have said. Each point about the new pilots is valid. But would not most of those points be corrected if new pilots were matched against new pilots, allowing them to gain experience by flying against each other? Sure, anyone can always create a new char, get on a new ship and join the new guys, and beat up on them. There are many level 55 players that fully enjoy running around level 40 planets ganking low bees. Most of the better players don't do that, its really boring and pointless.

I say let the new guys fight and learn from each other, as is the way in ground based PVP. When that chars stats reach a certain level, then place them in the mix. What that level is, or what stat determines their readiness, is for others to determine. SWTOR will never develop a realistic tutorial, that allows a char to fly his chosen ship in a realistic manner, for testing and training. Separating the new from the more developed could serve as this tutorial. just my opinion

[zaskar]

I certainly wouldn't be surprised, given the track records of some of these companies. But I don't know enough about databases to say whether the servers will have loading issues past such a low threshold, because I don't know how often these databases are loaded and/or searched.

 

Now think about all the statistics that just GSF provides, do you think the database is not *********** huge to be able to track all of that, for everyone?

[XTremeApophis]

Just tried Galactic Starfighter.. As a long time player of Space Sims, arcades, etc.. I HATED IT. Not because I got killed.. a lot.. and didn't kill one person.. but because the controls are just horrible.. it's a weird mix between a PC FPS and mini game.. :S .. needless to say I wont be trying it again anytime soon.. It just has no point, no engaging story to get you started, no usefulness at all to my main game..

[zaskar]

I don't disagree with anything that you have said. Each point about the new pilots is valid. But would not most of those points be corrected if new pilots were matched against new pilots, allowing them to gain experience by flying against each other? Sure, anyone can always create a new char, get on a new ship and join the new guys, and beat up on them. There are many level 55 players that fully enjoy running around level 40 planets ganking low bees. Most of the better players don't do that, its really boring and pointless.

I say let the new guys fight and learn from each other, as is the way in ground based PVP. When that chars stats reach a certain level, then place them in the mix. What that level is, or what stat determines their readiness, is for others to determine. SWTOR will never develop a realistic tutorial, that allows a char to fly his chosen ship in a realistic manner, for testing and training. Separating the new from the more developed could serve as this tutorial. just my opinion

 

...and that is all summed up in one word that has been used all over this thread, matchmaking.

 

I have a question for anyone that is arguing with this, why? What is wrong with being able to get a match pretty much anytime you want one? Are some of you trolling? Or are you just typing to see your signature?

[TheOldDruid]

I certainly wouldn't be surprised, given the track records of some of these companies. But I don't know enough about databases to say whether the servers will have loading issues past such a low threshold, because I don't know how often these databases are loaded and/or searched.

 

Dude, your 2 points have nothing to do with using voice chat in PVP. The DEV's have made it perfectly clear in several forums that the use of macro's is considered cheating. Just because I have a top grade system, with programmable key board and a naga mouse, doesn't mean that I can use the tech to gain an unfair advantage in PVP. Just after the release of Combat Logging, I ran several hours of test, on the training dummies, using finely tuned macro's and then following the same rotations, without macro's. There is a large difference in dps over a 10 min window. That testing allowed me to fully understand the macro ban.

Voice chat gives a similar advantage. Especially in GSF. One example.. if I'm chasseing you, and you have to stop flying and type 'help', you will probably be defeated. By using voice chat, not only are you able to call for help while still flying/fighting, but you are able to co-ordinate the rescue to maximum advantage. New pilots/subscribers/f2p, whatever don't have such advantage. Why do you feel that you need it in the PVP environment? Sure, it may be readily downloadable and free. But many simply will not download, try to set it up, or choose not to use it in PVP.

The fact that guilds do use such tactics as voice chat while fighting is simply another reason to separate the new from the not new.

Edited March 7, 2014 by TheOldDruid
anyway, im done with this. i dont see swtor doing anything to fix the problem. theyll just create more gear and more ships

[zaskar]

Just tried Galactic Starfighter.. As a long time player of Space Sims, arcades, etc.. I HATED IT. Not because I got killed.. a lot.. and didn't kill one person.. but because the controls are just horrible.. it's a weird mix between a PC FPS and mini game.. :S .. needless to say I wont be trying it again anytime soon.. It just has no point, no engaging story to get you started, no usefulness at all to my main game..

 

This answer belongs in one of the many tutorial / trainer / simulator threads, but anyways: I'm sure if someone would have explained the controls to you or the existing tutorial was at all good you would have ended up liking it. The real trick to GSF is slowing down your mouse movements, keeping them within the firing arc of each weapon. The missile lock on is also kinda wonky, once you get tone, you need to release the mouse button and quickly press it again to fire.

 

Once these two little but extremely important truths are learned anyone can fly GSF well. The game is horrible at explaining this. In the ground game you have the first 10 levels running around learning what your character can do before you're allowed into a pvp match for the first time. However that is all another thread entirely.

[Armonddd]

Now think about all the statistics that just GSF provides, do you think the database is not *********** huge to be able to track all of that, for everyone?

 

Shouldn't those just be get calls? Fairly static, very predictable (you can only access data on your own account), and thus more manageable.

[Armonddd]

Dude, your 2 points have nothing to do with using voice chat in PVP. The DEV's have made it perfectly clear in several forums that the use of macro's is considered cheating. Just because I have a top grade system, with programmable key board and a naga mouse, doesn't mean that I can use the tech to gain an unfair advantage in PVP.

 

Yeah, and that's dumb as ****.

 

Take a look at competitive e-sports. World class gamers use customized hardware, interfaces, and macros. Anything not explicitly disallowed by the devs is fair game, and that includes headsets. No sane developer is going to say that teams playing in a team game are disallowed from communicating.

 

Macros in particular are perfectly allowed (and thus required to compete) in WoW PvP, and I've always wondered why the SWTOR devs didn't copy that aspect over with all the other things. Macros are banned in other games, sure, but that's because you don't need macros to optimize things in those games. In WoW and SWTOR, popping all your cooldowns at exactly same time (or as close as you can get given server lag and processing time) is advantageous because it means you've got everything up and running ASAP and they'll all come off cooldown ASAP.

 

Just because something gives an advantage doesn't mean it's unfair.

 

Voice chat gives a similar advantage. Especially in GSF. One example.. if I'm chasseing you, and you have to stop flying and type 'help', you will probably be defeated. By using voice chat, not only are you able to call for help while still flying/fighting, but you are able to co-ordinate the rescue to maximum advantage.

 

See above.

 

Why do you feel that you need it in the PVP environment? Sure, it may be readily downloadable and free. But many simply will not download, try to set it up, or choose not to use it in PVP.

 

If others don't want to coordinate efforts with their team in a competitive environment, that's their prerogative. Likewise, if people want to do ops without voice chat, that's their prerogative -- but don't punish the rest of us for wanting to work as a team in a team game.

 

If someone doesn't use voice chat in a team environment, they're not playing optimally, and shall receive the same detriments as if they'd put all their skill points in one tree or geared themselves inappropriately. The arguments that "most people won't do it" or "it requires special hardware I don't have" are silly -- there's an optimal level of performance, and if you don't take all the steps to reach it, you shouldn't be surprised that you didn't reach it.

 

The fact that guilds do use such tactics as voice chat while fighting is simply another reason to separate the new from the not new.

 

Definitely agree. Matchmaking is an abysmal failure in GSF so far.

 

(Reminder: I haven't used voice chat in GSF in over a month because I've been queueing solo.)

[zaskar]

Shouldn't those just be get calls? Fairly static, very predictable (you can only access data on your own account), and thus more manageable.

Zero difference, computers don't care what data is or does. The statistics being stored is the many many concurrent writes, on the server something called map reduce happens and you see the results. The map reduce, depending on the tech that is used, can be fairly low overhead to huge machine destroying, sucking up 1.27 jiggawatts of powah and requiring huge tracks of ram.

[TheOldDruid]

I posted the voice chat OPINION, as another example why new pilots should be matched against other new pilots, to the extent possible. And along with others stated that we currently have no MATCHMAKING, as the ground based PVP. You chose to take us to the Olympics/WOW and beyond.. Have a nice day guy. Im done with this.

I would be shocked if swtor ever fixes anything. They seem to interested in releasing new ships/gear.. guess it pays better.

[BattleDress]

The strategies to win are boring to play and to play against. It's all gunships and bombers. If you play anything else you are handicapping yourself. People are getting bored of gunship fights in deathmatch and bombers just crapping out bombs for assured wins in domination. It was much better before 2.6.

 

Clearing the bombs are not a problem (Pike for 1 example) if u have group coordination (aka premade), but at least u have a chance. Gunships fights are f'in boring. 100% agree on that. Limiting the number of GS in a TDM maybe? Just throwing stuff around...

[Armonddd]

Zero difference, computers don't care what data is or does.

 

Well I mean, if you're doing the same thing every time, wouldn't it be easier to optimize the call? Again, we're getting deeper into computer science than I'm generally comfortable with, but that's the impression I got.

 

I posted the voice chat OPINION, as another example why new pilots should be matched against other new pilots, to the extent possible. And along with others stated that we currently have no MATCHMAKING, as the ground based PVP. You chose to take us to the Olympics/WOW and beyond.. Have a nice day guy. Im done with this.

 

If you present an opinion in a public forum, you should be prepared to debate it (otherwise, why are you on the public forum?). I agreed with you that matchmaking is broken, but I strongly disagree that headsets should be banned. I brought up the olympics and other games as examples -- which is generally what you do in a debate if you want to present evidence.

[Ramalina]

Stock ships are certainly not helpless cripples, but they are at a significant disadvantage compared to a ship that has made it to tier 4 upgrades in primary components and tier 3 in minor components.

 

The, "Look at my numbers while flying a stock ship," demo's are a product of flying against pilots with less experience and usually in not very upgraded ships.

 

Being able to farm noobs as an experienced player does not make gear insignificant.

 

If gear is insignificant, you would have people posting, "Look, in a stock ship I did just as well focusing on my server's best pilots flying their mastered ships as I do when I'm flying my mastered ships."

 

That's the valid test, and it hasn't been seen so far because the gear does make a noticeable difference.

 

Not enough to let a noob easily take down a skilled pilot, but when you're at the beginner's stage of learning and could use all the help you can get, knowing that you're on the wrong side of a gear difference is discouraging to a lot of people. A few will thrive on the extra challenge, but I really doubt that they're the majority.

 

It's a lot like youth sports really. You can have a fairly harsh intro to a sport, where the people that stick around are ones that have a lot of determination. The problem is that you have a lower total number of participants and you loose people who could have been really great at it if the initial experience had been enough fun to make them want to still stick with it as they get into more rigorous competition. If you want the sport as a whole to prosper, making the entry friendly to newcomers and having a space where people who don't take it all that seriously can have fun playing it is usually beneficial.

[Armonddd]

Being able to farm noobs as an experienced player does not make gear insignificant.

 

That's why I like my screenshot -- there's a bunch of people who've been flying for a while as well as a few noobs. It's representative of a typical GSF match.

[zaskar]

.... Everything Ramalina said ...

 

So you agree with everything said, and even encourage BioWare to build a better training program, just like many of us have said. All but one thing, i highly suggest you jump on an alt and try the stock ships again. With understanding of how things work, they perform very well, I have formed a new respect for the rapid fire laser.

[Applejacxs]

Just some of my thoughts on this subject.

 

1.If gsf was supposed to be bio wares entry into faction on faction pvp. They really need to pay attention to factions cause if one side feels like this a waste of time they will bail(not play or play as the other faction).

 

2. They have done a real poor job of explaining gsf. They over focused getting kills and not on team work aspect that it takes to win.

 

3.I do think there probably going to end up nerfing it down more cause it does seem the one complaint people give is regards to controls and feel of the game. Who knows maybe it moves bit to fast at time for them?

 

 

4.I really do wish they would do ship reps/GSF reps. Something simialr to how they do class reps cause i think it would go a long way to making it better game.

[zaskar]

Just some of my thoughts on this subject.

 

1.If gsf was supposed to be bio wares entry into faction on faction pvp. They really need to pay attention to factions cause if one side feels like this a waste of time they will bail(not play or play as the other faction).

 

2. They have done a real poor job of explaining gsf. They over focused getting kills and not on team work aspect that it takes to win.

 

3.I do think there probably going to end up nerfing it down more cause it does seem the one complaint people give is regards to controls and feel of the game. Who knows maybe it moves bit to fast at time for them?

 

 

4.I really do wish they would do ship reps/GSF reps. Something simialr to how they do class reps cause i think it would go a long way to making it better game.

 

Did you even read the op or thread?