Kaggath Tournament Finals - Ascending Empire vs Droid Supremacy

[Selenial]

All right all right people enough with this intimate knowledge cause I visited once blah blah business. Unless Kenobi is a droid who can program info into his brain his knowledge ain't going to be all the intimate.

 

Heck I don't think its even the same city.

 

Visited it once?

*facedesk*

 

Unbelievable

 

He coordinated a planet wide defense.

Edited March 18, 2014 by Selenial

[Beniboybling]

No seriously, she does. The Mon Calamarians will be more than happy to overthrow their fiendish droid leaders to join the woman who led their people to prosperity.

How exactly will the Mon Calamari overthrow the droid armies? Details, Aurbere, details.

 

I mean come on guys, back in the day folks used to occupy planets against their will! Shock and horror!

[Beniboybling]

Visited it once?

*facedesk*

 

Unbelievable

 

He coordinated a planet wide defense.

Photographic memory?

 

*facedesk*

 

Unbelievable.

 

He is not a droid. Nor did he do it all by himself.

 

EDIT: I'm not saying it won't come in handy, but he's not going to be like *take the next left it leads right to the control room!* yah no.

Edited March 18, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Selenial]

Photographic memory?

 

*facedesk*

 

Unbelievable.

 

He is not a droid. Nor did he do it all by himself.

 

You're going to remember things.

 

Things like the Kaminoans had no underwater sensors.

Things like the facility has few defenses outside the outer layer.

Things like the planets general geology, the fact the cities could be sank etc, sure the droids didn't do it but that's because they wanted the clone DNA.

Edited March 18, 2014 by Selenial

[Selenial]

How exactly will the Mon Calamari overthrow the droid armies? Details, Aurbere, details.

 

I mean come on guys, back in the day folks used to occupy planets against their will! Shock and horror!

 

Uhh, warren has no Aquatic droids, and the Mon Cala have their own vessels pre prepared.

 

They were ingenious enough to hold back the entire empire alone, they'd overthrow the black sun navy. Or just sabotage them, and feed information to Mothma.

[Beniboybling]

You're going to remember things.

 

Things like the Kaminoans had no underwater sensors.

Things like the facility has few defenses outside the outer layer.

Things like the planets general geology, the fact the cities could be sank etc, sure the droids didn't do it but that's because they wanted the clone DNA.

Of course it will be helpful, but intimate suggests he knows specific weak points, entry points, the location of command centers, a ability to navigate corridors and catacombs with ease.

 

Regardless being more specific like we are here is going to be far more profitable than saying intimate knowledge = win.

[Beniboybling]

Uhh, warren has no Aquatic droids, and the Mon Cala have their own vessels pre prepared.

 

They were ingenious enough to hold back the entire empire alone, they'd overthrow the black sun navy. Or just sabotage them, and feed information to Mothma.

Er, Aqua Droids in space? The shipyards are the only important thing on Mon Cala.

 

But wait, how are they going to overthrow the Black Sun navy? They don't even have ships!

 

Details! We are making broad assumptions based on vague and circumstantial evidence.

Edited March 18, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Selenial]

Of course it will be helpful, but intimate suggests he knows specific weak points, entry points, the location of command centers, a ability to navigate corridors and catacombs with ease.

 

Regardless being more specific like we are here is going to be far more profitable than saying intimate knowledge = win.

 

Well, he'd need to identify weak points etc for a defense.

 

And we seem to be forgetting the clones who lived there for a decade, training. They'd remember everything, you saw how effortlessly gives navigated the facilities.

[Beniboybling]

Well, he'd need to identify weak points etc for a defense.

 

And we seem to be forgetting the clones who lived there for a decade, training. They'd remember everything, you saw how effortlessly gives navigated the facilities.

That later part is true.

[Selenial]

Er, Aqua Droids in space? The shipyards are the only important thing on Mon Cala.

 

But wait, how are they going to overthrow the Black Sun navy? They don't even have ships!

 

Details!

 

I thought they started with a Garrison?

 

Either way, the station is huge with a lot of defenses, they could easily wait for mothma to send 2-3 ISD's, a couple backup cruisers and use the station as a primary offence.

 

And I meant aqua droids for the ground, either way the planet and it's resources are that of the AE.

[Beniboybling]

I thought they started with a Garrison?

 

Either way, the station is huge with a lot of defenses, they could easily wait for mothma to send 2-3 ISD's, a couple backup cruisers and use the station as a primary offence.

 

And I meant aqua droids for the ground, either way the planet and it's resources are that of the AE.

The Mon Cal aren't the DS, they don't have personal garrisons, certainly not fleets.

 

Slow down, they need to capture the space station first. That is the point. Its all well and good if the Mon Cal decide to rebel but in order to aid the AE they need to get troops up onto the station and rout the battle droids guarding it. There will of course by engineers on the station already, but I doubt they are even armed or outnumber the enemy.

 

Moot however if the planet is blockaded. And hardly plentiful or important.

 

EDIT: Lets also not treat the Mon Cal, or any population, like a hive mind. Not all of them will be willing to stand up or want to stand up against the Supremacy's supposed tyranny. Especially if they act as business clients protecting their investment. One must ask oneself if its worth risking lives to oust some clients who seem a little shady.

Edited March 18, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Selenial]

The Mon Cal aren't the DS, they don't have personal garrisons, certainly not fleets.

 

Slow down, they need to capture the space station first. That is the point. Its all well and good if the Mon Cal decide to rebel but in order to aid the AE they need to get troops up onto the station and rout the battle droids guarding it. There will of course by engineers on the station already, but I doubt they are even armed or outnumber the enemy.

 

Moot however if the planet is blockaded. And hardly plentiful or important.

 

EDIT: Lets also not treat the Mon Cal, or any population, like a hive mind. Not all of them will be willing to stand up or want to stand up against the Supremacy's supposed tyranny. Especially if they act as business clients protecting their investment. One must ask oneself if its worth risking lives to oust some clients who seem a little shady.

 

Ahh, ok. Well they can be smuggled up etc, and we've already discussed how Aurberes fleet could likely win alone.

 

However the Mon Cala really are a unified people, with the choice between a Shady business trying to conquer the galaxy, who's primary objective is the death of one of the Mon Calas closest allies, or said ally, the choice would be obvious.

[Canino]

Can we please get over the whole idea that the DS wants the rule the galaxy in tyranny and murder everyone?! Do we not remember that G0-T0's primary objective is to rebuild the Republic? I don't ever remember him trying to rule through tyranny, or committing mass genocide.

 

While he may be unorthodox, his goal is, in fact, noble. The Mon Cal would likely support him, considering they would also like to rebuild the Republic (as it is not technically in the Kaggath). In fact, there is literally no reason for the Mon Cal to defect, as G0-T0 actually was building the Republic through peace, as opposed to Mothma fighting a war (different situations, yes, but the point is still there. G0-T0 rebuilt through his criminal empire, while Mothma fought to rebuild) ...

[Silenceo]

Has it been brought up yet that DS might be able to disable planetary shields with smuggled in assassin droids? Just a thought that came to mind, if they are programmed to murder surely it is not that far of a stretch that they can at least cause distractions on the ground.

 

It is also possible that the DS could use their high quality of assassination skills to spread terror and fear across the AE that would make the population uneasy. Granted they would eventually be soothed by Mothma, but it would only take temporary instability for the DS to have success on one of the less defended targets.

 

Any ideas on the rate of production for the Black Sun frigates? The AE Capital ships? That will help determine how much each side can afford to lose before they unable to compete. Not to mention that as was stated earlier the 212th will have no replacements and with them gone...Well, lets just say the AE's ground force is significantly weaker. They were good, but they were not invincible. It is highly likely that the droids will be mass produced enough to significantly outlast the 212th legion and help the DS to take control of the ground warfare.

 

As for the distribution of the AE's navy it is very true that the ISD's and the Executor will be extremely formidable likely requiring the entire DS navy to combat. This is where production will come into play. I have no doubt that with the use of Sabotage and surprise attacks that the AE's frigates and corvette class ships will soon be destroyed. This will cause the AE ship production to make a drastic decision. Focus on replacing the easier to replace smaller vessels, or continue trying to build the elite vessels that are severely stronger. If they choose to replace the smaller vessels it is only a matter of time before they are whittled down with the ISD's. If they choose to continue building ISD's and ignore the issue of no support ships *or at least lower priority/resources for them* then the build time alone will allow the DS to pull ahead. When the Executor joins a navy battle the DS will be forced to retreat immediately so they will lose very little. However, if the DS is able to cripple the AE's frigates enough *and eventually a few of the ISD* their numbers will be significantly depleted, but planetary shields will hold for much longer. This time buys the DS more time to build and replace what they have lost. This time allows the DS to sabotage more and more facilities. This time, will allow the DS to win by economic means as well as by attrition. If they just manage to cripple the Executors engines some how they will be in an even greater position.

 

It should be reminded that the DS is highly populated by the underworld and yet it sounds like you are all talking conventional tactics. Tactics a government or a formal force would use. They are not formal. They are dirty, they are shifty, they have contacts on every world. They have all they need to cause chaos in the AE infrastructure that will allow them to cripple the AE's home-front. Criminals of this caliber tend to not care about the effect their actions have on innocent civilians as long as they achieve what they want. In order to completely eliminate this weakness the AE would have to become similar to the DS is several ways, and they do not seem like ones to sacrifice their ideals.

 

"We are at a disadvantage, Captain, because we will not abandon our ideals to win. If we became the enemy in our hearts and minds, then our victory would be for nothing."- Jedi Master Plo Koon

[Aurbere]

All right all right people enough with this intimate knowledge cause I visited once blah blah business. Unless Kenobi is a droid who can program info into his brain his knowledge ain't going to be all the intimate.

 

Heck I don't think its even the same city.

 

He coordinated the defense of the planet multiple times. He knows these things. Plus you have the clones who lived on the planet for years. They know as well.

[Selenial]

Can we please get over the whole idea that the DS wants the rule the galaxy in tyranny and murder everyone?! Do we not remember that G0-T0's primary objective is to rebuild the Republic? I don't ever remember him trying to rule through tyranny, or committing mass genocide.

 

While he may be unorthodox, his goal is, in fact, noble. The Mon Cal would likely support him, considering they would also like to rebuild the Republic (as it is not technically in the Kaggath). In fact, there is literally no reason for the Mon Cal to defect, as G0-T0 actually was building the Republic through peace, as opposed to Mothma fighting a war (different situations, yes, but the point is still there. G0-T0 rebuilt through his criminal empire, while Mothma fought to rebuild) ...

 

Weve been over this many times and it's starting to upset me how many times I've had to tell people the difference between Dramatic Irony and Canon Informafion.

 

WE know that he wanted to rebuild the republic thanks to his talks with Surik.

THE ENTIRE GALAXY thought he was a harsh crime boss who sold slaves, stole, pirated and pillaged for his own good.

 

No one in the galaxy thought he was a nice man, and with army's of machines designed for mass murder, and with Assassin droids taking up important roles in leadership, he won't be able to change that image.

And if he tries, he loses the underworld.

 

Besides, merely the sight of the B1's is going to bring back bad memories for the Mon cala...

[Aurbere]

Aurbere, now that we've come up with the anti HK strategy (that would be military protocol for droids anyway me thinks) you might as well start with the droid forces breakdowns, B3's and the like.

 

Right, I'll get on that tomorrow. If you have any quotes outside of the New Essential Guide to Droids (my primary resource for them), go ahead and post them.

[Canino]

If I have time today or tomorrow (most likely tomorrow) I'll try to debate all points regarding Order 66, culminating in why it would succeed. Aurbere, if you would be so kind, could you please list all of the points you believe prove that Order 66 wouldn't work (just bullet briefly)? It would just make it a lot easier for me, as opposed to digging through the entire thread for specific posts.

 

If I don't get it tomorrow or today, I'll shoot for later this week. However, I'm on a busy schedule, so I can't promise anything.

[Aurbere]

Of course it will be helpful, but intimate suggests he knows specific weak points, entry points, the location of command centers, a ability to navigate corridors and catacombs with ease.

 

Regardless being more specific like we are here is going to be far more profitable than saying intimate knowledge = win.

 

I'm pretty sure he does. He coordinated the defense of the planet multiple times. He knows the defensive measures of the planet. Then you have the 212th having the information Obi-Wan doesn't.

[Selenial]

 

Hmm, Canino might be right, relationships between the Mon Cala and Mon Mothma have never been good...

[Canino]

Weve been over this many times and it's starting to upset me how many times I've had to tell people the difference between Dramatic Irony and Canon Informafion.

 

WE know that he wanted to rebuild the republic thanks to his talks with Surik.

THE ENTIRE GALAXY thought he was a harsh crime boss who sold slaves, stole, pirated and pillaged for his own good.

 

No one in the galaxy thought he was a nice man, and with army's of machines designed for mass murder, and with Assassin droids taking up important roles in leadership, he won't be able to change that image.

And if he tries, he loses the underworld.

 

Besides, merely the sight of the B1's is going to bring back bad memories for the Mon cala...

 

And he wouldn't tell them why? He told Surik because she was his best chance to actually do anything. The Mon Cal sort of fill that spot. As do all of his planets/populations. The rest of the galaxy? I think you mean Nar Shaddaa- and that was because of his bounty on Jedi (again, so he could use them to rebuild).

 

EDIT: Sel, am I ever wrong

Edited March 18, 2014 by Canino

[Aurbere]

If I have time today or tomorrow (most likely tomorrow) I'll try to debate all points regarding Order 66, culminating in why it would succeed. Aurbere, if you would be so kind, could you please list all of the points you believe prove that Order 66 wouldn't work (just bullet briefly)? It would just make it a lot easier for me, as opposed to digging through the entire thread for specific posts.

 

If I don't get it tomorrow or today, I'll shoot for later this week. However, I'm on a busy schedule, so I can't promise anything.

 

OK, here it is.

 

Step 1: Get visual contact with the Clones.

Step 2: Realize that they are Clones.

Step 3: Think that their cloners made contingency plans or engineered weaknesses into them.

Step 4: Find out who cloned them.

Step 5: Get the information out of the Kaminoans.

 

The issue is that most of those steps are leaps in logic.

[Canino]

OK, here it is.

 

Step 1: Get visual contact with the Clones.

Step 2: Realize that they are Clones.

Step 3: Think that their cloners made contingency plans or engineered weaknesses into them.

Step 4: Find out who cloned them.

Step 5: Get the information out of the Kaminoans.

 

The issue is that most of those steps are leaps in logic.

 

Thank you very much

[Aurbere]

Has it been brought up yet that DS might be able to disable planetary shields with smuggled in assassin droids? Just a thought that came to mind, if they are programmed to murder surely it is not that far of a stretch that they can at least cause distractions on the ground.

 

The issue is getting past the planetary defenses, security checks, etc.

 

It is also possible that the DS could use their high quality of assassination skills to spread terror and fear across the AE that would make the population uneasy. Granted they would eventually be soothed by Mothma, but it would only take temporary instability for the DS to have success on one of the less defended targets.

 

How exactly?

 

Any ideas on the rate of production for the Black Sun frigates? The AE Capital ships? That will help determine how much each side can afford to lose before they unable to compete. Not to mention that as was stated earlier the 212th will have no replacements and with them gone...Well, lets just say the AE's ground force is significantly weaker. They were good, but they were not invincible. It is highly likely that the droids will be mass produced enough to significantly outlast the 212th legion and help the DS to take control of the ground warfare.

 

The AE has two mega-shipyards, one to produce capital vessels, the other to produce frigates and smaller ships. The DS only has one, one that may not even be very effective if the Mon Calamarians decide to help the AE.

 

Regarding ground forces, the AE has more than the 212th. I'll show you later.

 

As for the distribution of the AE's navy it is very true that the ISD's and the Executor will be extremely formidable likely requiring the entire DS navy to combat. This is where production will come into play. I have no doubt that with the use of Sabotage and surprise attacks that the AE's frigates and corvette class ships will soon be destroyed. This will cause the AE ship production to make a drastic decision. Focus on replacing the easier to replace smaller vessels, or continue trying to build the elite vessels that are severely stronger. If they choose to replace the smaller vessels it is only a matter of time before they are whittled down with the ISD's. If they choose to continue building ISD's and ignore the issue of no support ships *or at least lower priority/resources for them* then the build time alone will allow the DS to pull ahead.

 

Like I said, two mega-shipyards. They don't have to make a drastic decision. They can do both. Further, the AE's frigates and Corvettes are more than capable of taking on DS ships.

 

When the Executor joins a navy battle the DS will be forced to retreat immediately so they will lose very little. However, if the DS is able to cripple the AE's frigates enough *and eventually a few of the ISD* their numbers will be significantly depleted, but planetary shields will hold for much longer. This time buys the DS more time to build and replace what they have lost. This time allows the DS to sabotage more and more facilities. This time, will allow the DS to win by economic means as well as by attrition. If they just manage to cripple the Executors engines some how they will be in an even greater position.

 

DS ships can't leave when an Interdictor is in the AE fleet.

 

The Executor is a monster. It took the concentrated fire of the entire Rebel Command Fleet to even bring its shields down.

 

It should be reminded that the DS is highly populated by the underworld and yet it sounds like you are all talking conventional tactics. Tactics a government or a formal force would use. They are not formal. They are dirty, they are shifty, they have contacts on every world. They have all they need to cause chaos in the AE infrastructure that will allow them to cripple the AE's home-front. Criminals of this caliber tend to not care about the effect their actions have on innocent civilians as long as they achieve what they want. In order to completely eliminate this weakness the AE would have to become similar to the DS is several ways, and they do not seem like ones to sacrifice their ideals.

 

"We are at a disadvantage, Captain, because we will not abandon our ideals to win. If we became the enemy in our hearts and minds, then our victory would be for nothing."- Jedi Master Plo Koon

 

I approve of you using that quote.

 

However, I'm not sure what you mean by the AE having to become like the DS. In what ways?

Edited March 18, 2014 by Aurbere

[Aurbere]

Thank you very much

 

You're welcome.