How do you take down a good gunship pilot with a scout?

[Armonddd]

You just don't understand it do you. ION missiles, and ION cannons, and ION mines all do the same thing. Yet its the ION Railgun that causes the problems. Hell even the concussion missile has an engine drain.

 

You're right that the range is the big thing, but it's worth noting that of the four ion weapons, the railgun drains engine power fastest (~15 engine power per second single target, vs 10 for cannons and not very much for mines and missiles). It's also the only one that gets the debuff trifecta (drain weapon power, drain engine power, choice between snare and disable regen), and is the only one that hits AoE.

 

(Railguns hit AoE while missile explosions don't. Yeah, that makes sense.)

[Yndras]

You're right that the range is the big thing, but it's worth noting that of the four ion weapons, the railgun drains engine power fastest (~15 engine power per second single target, vs 10 for cannons and not very much for mines and missiles). It's also the only one that gets the debuff trifecta (drain weapon power, drain engine power, choice between snare and disable regen), and is the only one that hits AoE.

 

(Railguns hit AoE while missile explosions don't. Yeah, that makes sense.)

 

thats a fair call. The ION railgun also applies its affects much quicker as in its pre-loaded and the sheilds are gone in one hit etc, where compared with the cannons, which require hitting them a few times. This is also probably compounding the problem.

Edited March 6, 2014 by Yndras

[Verain]

I went looking for scout on gunship tactics but it's just battle scouts crying up in here.

 

On my server Razan has starting a Quad Laser / Frequency Capacitor / Rocket Pods / Blaster Overcharge / Concentrated Fire. You pop your 1 and 4, while jamming left and right and you deal a ludic amount of damage. Our top ace (Anastasie) has tried and confirmed this build as being exceptional at killing gunships (he's also gotten blown up on his gunship with it)- the only counter AS a gunship is basically not letting someone with that build near you.

[Yndras]

I went looking for scout on gunship tactics but it's just battle scouts crying up in here.

 

On my server Razan has starting a Quad Laser / Frequency Capacitor / Rocket Pods / Blaster Overcharge / Concentrated Fire. You pop your 1 and 4, while jamming left and right and you deal a ludic amount of damage. Our top ace (Anastasie) has tried and confirmed this build as being exceptional at killing gunships (he's also gotten blown up on his gunship with it)- the only counter AS a gunship is basically not letting someone with that build near you.

 

The best way to kill a gunship, is with a gunship.

Edited March 6, 2014 by Yndras

[Pilgrim_Grey]

You're right that the range is the big thing, but it's worth noting that of the four ion weapons, the railgun drains engine power fastest (~15 engine power per second single target, vs 10 for cannons and not very much for mines and missiles). It's also the only one that gets the debuff trifecta (drain weapon power, drain engine power, choice between snare and disable regen), and is the only one that hits AoE.

 

(Railguns hit AoE while missile explosions don't. Yeah, that makes sense.)

 

That was going to be most of my reply as well. If the ion railgun debuffed like the other ion weapons, I'd be complaining about it less. The railgun does better than the other ion weapons in every category at once.

 

Now, the numbers on Dulfy still seem a little harsh for some elements with the other ions, they at least seem more measured than the railgun. :/

[Armonddd]

I went looking for scout on gunship tactics but it's just battle scouts crying up in here.

 

On my server Razan has starting a Quad Laser / Frequency Capacitor / Rocket Pods / Blaster Overcharge / Concentrated Fire. You pop your 1 and 4, while jamming left and right and you deal a ludic amount of damage. Our top ace (Anastasie) has tried and confirmed this build as being exceptional at killing gunships (he's also gotten blown up on his gunship with it)- the only counter AS a gunship is basically not letting someone with that build near you.

 

Old news, Scrab's been running that for legit months and I've been telling plenty of people about it. It's perfectly possible to survive it if you keep a finger on barrel roll or distortion field (which you really should be doing anyway), especially if the scout doesn't have his cooldowns available (which is a lot of the time).

[Armonddd]

You're right that the range is the big thing, but it's worth noting that of the four ion weapons, the railgun drains engine power fastest (~15 engine power per second single target, vs 10 for cannons and not very much for mines and missiles). It's also the only one that gets the debuff trifecta (drain weapon power, drain engine power, choice between snare and disable regen), and is the only one that hits AoE.

 

Correction: Ion mines hit AoE, but have a significantly larger cooldown. Ion missiles do an unknown amount of engine power drain, but at least five (I imagine there's some base, but I've never been on the receiving end of one and the tooltip is all flavor text). Ion mines do 25+5 engine power drain, which is significant enough to make up for its lack of edps (engine drain per second), especially if you can drop a second on the guy right after he blows up the first one.

 

On the other hand, ion railguns face almost no opportunity cost -- you're giving up the plasma railgun, which is weak anyway. Taking ion cannons means you only get one of quads, heavies, and rapids, and while rapids are a joke, heavies and quads are not. The Pike and Quell get a number of good missile options, and dedicating one of them to ion (which is of questionable use outside of energy drain, since most of the time the target's shields will be gone before the missile launches) is a Big Deal. Likewise, taking the ion mine means not taking the interdiction or concussion mines, both of which are also extremely powerful.

[Kuciwalker]

Clearly you cant count. I only ever mentioned two of the three gunships. I even made a footnote stating this.. And further more, how many scouts should you employ to purposely remove gunships?

 

OMG are you telling me that 2 gunships kill 1 scout?

And you should probably need, I don't know, an equal number of scouts as the enemy has gunships.

 

So you have to make the gunship turn? Using this analysis would mean you are flying across the gunships reticle, meaning your not going toward him, you are going away from him. You must be amazing if you can kill a gunship while flying away from it. I have never seen that done.

 

You fly in a damn arc. Gunships turn slow, and they turn slower when zoomed in (optimally the gunship will have to zoom in and out multiple times to track a target with a reasonable angular velocity; I do this all the time). Gunships have a severe tracking penalty at the edge of their arc. Gunships have a very low rate of fire and their shots are expensive in terms of both time and energy, meaning that they pay a much steeper price trying to hit a target moving laterally.

 

Again, you don't fly away from the gunship, you just don't approach him head on. You fly in an arc so that you are only pointed straight at him once you are within blaster range.

 

What i'm telling you is that the range and damage given to the gunships increases exponentially as more gunships are added. The gunship on its own is not unbalanced, but as a whole, the range and damage compounds to an over powered state when the number of gunships reaches or exceeds 4. This is especially true in an 8v8 match, in fact this can be reached with as few as two or three in an 8v8 match.

 

If you actually did a man-to-man defense against the gunships they would have far more difficulty supporting each other.

[Verain]

Old news, Scrab's been running that for legit months and I've been telling plenty of people about it.

 

This thread is eight pages with the title of "How do you take down a good gunship pilot with a scout" and you haven't actually shared it. So that's about the same as not knowing it, only more annoying, right?

 

It's perfectly possible to survive it if you keep a finger on barrel roll or distortion field (which you really should be doing anyway), especially if the scout doesn't have his cooldowns available (which is a lot of the time).

 

The point is that the scout chooses the fight, not the gunship, and I certainly stated that the only way to not die is to leave right away (you will still take damage through disto, barrel roll gets you safe). The big deal is that unlike the more traditional burst builds, the time-to-kill is so short that you can't really risk waiting for the scout to pop CD's before escaping- you still risk death.

[Verain]

On the other hand, ion railguns face almost no opportunity cost -- you're giving up the plasma railgun, which is weak anyway.

 

This is actually not an ion railgun problem. The ion railgun choice locks you into the rail sniper (only one ship has it), locks you in to distortion field, locks you in to giving up either plasma or slug.

 

I agree these terms and conditions aren't very onerous, but the slug versus plasma choice is mostly made trivial by slug's power being quite a bit more. The average full slug shot does 1760 and ignores armor, the average full plasma does 2012 (14% more), but the damage is a dot, it is fully vulnerable to damage reductions, shield heals, hull heals, etc. I think that delta needs to be a bit larger.

 

Ion's big cost is that a single ion shot won't get you a kill, and often won't even dent the ship if you get chased off promptly. The other ion components are strong, but don't have the massive disabling effect of the railgun- an effect which needs to be toned down or scaled with the charge.

[Armonddd]

This thread is eight pages with the title of "How do you take down a good gunship pilot with a scout" and you haven't actually shared it. So that's about the same as not knowing it, only more annoying, right?

 

wut

 

I know you've been in threads where I've discussed this cause you're in all the threads

 

and I thought I had shared earlier, but guess not, my bad

 

This is actually not an ion railgun problem. The ion railgun choice locks you into the rail sniper (only one ship has it), locks you in to distortion field, locks you in to giving up either plasma or slug.

 

The problem of a low opportunity cost is the fault of an overpowered option or underpowered alternatives. Take your pick, but I'm not going to debate with you about it.

Edited March 6, 2014 by Armonddd

[Pilgrim_Grey]

This thread is eight pages with the title of "How do you take down a good gunship pilot with a scout" and you haven't actually shared it. So that's about the same as not knowing it, only more annoying, right?

 

The build might be news to some newbies, but it's a variant on the burst damage thing many scouts have been doing for awhile. It's why going face on with a scout that's gunning for you is an iffy thing for most ships, because a lot of people have built for insane burst like that. I'll pretty much only do it in a gunship if they're weak and I have a charge on a rail going already (or they're close enough for burst). And I've learned not to try it on my scouts, either... a lot of people have more time and req than I do--I play a fair amount but my ships are still shy of the highest tiers in most of their gear.

[wvwraith]

Oh..my..god, Becky, look at that gunship.

[Vulta]

But if Ion gets nerfed, Verain wont be able to ion his way to victory.

[Yndras]

And you should probably need, I don't know, an equal number of scouts as the enemy has gunships.

 

You fly in a damn arc. Gunships turn slow, and they turn slower when zoomed in (optimally the gunship will have to zoom in and out multiple times to track a target with a reasonable angular velocity; I do this all the time). Gunships have a severe tracking penalty at the edge of their arc. Gunships have a very low rate of fire and their shots are expensive in terms of both time and energy, meaning that they pay a much steeper price trying to hit a target moving laterally.

 

Again, you don't fly away from the gunship, you just don't approach him head on. You fly in an arc so that you are only pointed straight at him once you are within blaster range.

 

If you actually did a man-to-man defense against the gunships they would have far more difficulty supporting each other.

 

You really haven't played this game much outside of a gunship have you.

[Yndras]

and while rapids are a joke,

 

Almost all of my kills come from rapids. They are severely under rated.

Edited March 6, 2014 by Yndras

[Armonddd]

Almost all of my kills come from rapids. They are severely under rated.

 

Rapids only out-perform other lasers when you're constantly shooting towards the edge of your firing arc without missing. Even then, the sheer power of bursts and the range of quads are worth a lot more, especially once you consider the small firing windows skilled opponents tend to offer. There's like a half dozen other threads on this topic if you're interested.

 

I've seen the "I do well with X, X is underrated" argument applied to every option in every competitive game I've played (with the exception of 7 Wonders, because it's actually balanced). People seem to rarely take into account the opportunity cost of using another option, and confirmation bias almost always plays a role.

[Verain]

Rapids only out-perform other lasers when you're constantly shooting towards the edge of your firing arc without missing.

 

And even then, they don't outdps lights!

 

You are correct, rapids are poor.

 

There's like a half dozen other threads on this topic if you're interested.

 

Indeed, and for his reference, here's mine:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=723029

[Armonddd]

Indeed, and for his reference, here's mine:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=723029

 

yessss you did exactly as I predicted and my laziness paid off completely

[Verain]

yessss you did exactly as I predicted and my laziness paid off completely

 

Lol

 

I just typed "rapid fire embarrassment" into google

[DroidDreamer]

You're right that the range is the big thing, but it's worth noting that of the four ion weapons, the railgun drains engine power fastest (~15 engine power per second single target, vs 10 for cannons and not very much for mines and missiles). It's also the only one that gets the debuff trifecta (drain weapon power, drain engine power, choice between snare and disable regen), and is the only one that hits AoE.

 

(Railguns hit AoE while missile explosions don't. Yeah, that makes sense.)

 

Say that out loud to hear how dumb it sounds. Any one of those things, any two of those things would be fine. But all of those things in one weapon? Kinda cheesy.

[DroidDreamer]

So here's how I do it with my blackbolt:

 

--Use barrel roll and engine boost to close the gap but make sure you leave yourself enough engine power to chase the gunship or escape. Just cool your jets before you go in and get engine power back up.

--Approach from the sides, high or low. Never straight-on unless you can't avoid it.

--Once in EMP Field range, pop it. I have it talented to block engine abilities to prevent the gunship using Barrel Roll, though I'm not convinced it works.

--Shift power to blasters, pop the companion crit buff (or bypass) if you have it, open up with blasters and rocket pods under 3k range.

--Be prepared to chase using barrel roll and engine boost if you didn't get them on the first pass.

 

Barrel Roll is getting a cooldown nerf; that should help chase after gunships.

[Davionix]

You're right that the range is the big thing, but it's worth noting that of the four ion weapons, the railgun drains engine power fastest (~15 engine power per second single target, vs 10 for cannons and not very much for mines and missiles). It's also the only one that gets the debuff trifecta (drain weapon power, drain engine power, choice between snare and disable regen), and is the only one that hits AoE.

 

(Railguns hit AoE while missile explosions don't. Yeah, that makes sense.)

 

Ion cannons on strikes also drain engine and weapon power in addition to shields. Also they can be specced to slow but not completely block regeneration as well.

[Armonddd]

Ion cannons on strikes also drain engine and weapon power in addition to shields. Also they can be specced to slow but not completely block regeneration as well.

 

And they're still completely inferior to ion railguns in terms of drain per second and shield damage per second.

[Verain]

Ion cannons on strikes also drain engine and weapon power in addition to shields. Also they can be specced to slow but not completely block regeneration as well.

 

 

The second part is not correct.

 

 

So, first, you have to understand that the railgun version of ANYTHING is better than the non railgun part. Also that the dps on a railgun is inferior to blasters, but superior to missiles. That's the hierarchy of these things. Unstated is that railguns don't just randomly get added to scouts and strikes, but instead are exclusively on gunships.

 

 

 

Ok, so:

 

The ion CANNON is only on the Type 1 Strike. By default it does ludicrous dps to shields, but is only interesting at close range. You can spec- at the cost of two different talents- it to take away 4 engine and 4 blaster energy per hit. It will never snare an enemy, or do an aoe, or slow their regen, or stop it.

 

The ion MISSILE is only on the Type 2 Strike (datamined stuff shows it on the Type 3 Strike and Type 3 Scout, the first of which is odd and the second of which is insane). It does a strong amount of shield damage- around 1600. It can be specced to snare the enemy OR slow their regen by 50% for 6 seconds. It has a very very weak mandatory talent that makes it drain five points of engine power on hit.

 

The ion MINE is only on the minelayer type bomber. It deals moderate shield damage (900), but drains 25 engine and weapon power, a lot of baseline drain. A talent ups that 25 to 30, and the rather silly top talents offer a choice between "slowing weapon and engine power regeneration by 20% for 9 seconds", a barely noticable amount, and "draining 90 shield power over 9 seconds", also a trivial amount. The explosion is aoe.

 

The ion RAILGUN is only on the rail sniper (Type 1 Gunship). It deals moderate shield damage (1850 base, nowhere near the multiplier that ion cannons have over, say, quads), and is generally not well thought of until the later talent choices. A mandatory third tier talent gives it "an additional 10 units of energy" drain, and the base seems to be 0 for weapon, 0 for engine, and 1850 for shield. The fourth tier talent offers the poorly named "Hits do AOE Damage" talent, which, indeed, offers AOE damage (at half the damage done to the primary target), but also adds 18 engine and weapon power drain to everyone struck. The fifth tier talent offers either a 40% snare for 6 seconds, or a full stop to the amount of engine, weapon, and shield energy regenerated for 6 seconds.

 

 

All ion hits do one quarter the listed damage to hull.

 

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again- I think that the ion railgun damage should be increased (to something like 2200), while the "energy drained" feature scales with the charge. The 25% minimum charge was a good start, but there's still tons of 25 to 35% shots that fire off and drain almost as rapidly as the love taps did before the fix. I think there just needs to be an incentive to fire a full shot instead of just the baby drain. Secondly, the final tier energy talent is probably just a bit too strong. It could be made to scale with duration- for instance, 6 seconds at full charge- or it could be redesigned to only nerf regeneration by 50%, but maybe for twice the listed duration (12 seconds). Or even less- I don't really feel it needs to be as powerful at stun lock as it is.