DEVS: Mercenary needs an escape/leap

[Darth__Reaver]

What if Death From Above took you out of melee range?

 

 

Obviously Troopers would need an equivalent CQC Shield or something

 

GREAT SCOTT!!! that's genius. It also would work for trooper being a shield. But not just Immune to melee but also ranged.

[Davide-]

We are not going to get an escape for merc on next patch.....

which is really disappointing since we are the only class with the crappiest cd's

 

Why cant they figure out that Energy Shield and Kolto Overload can be out dpsed easy and even used at the same time we can be outdpsed

oh and how about a super obvious Hydrolic Overrides which compared to a sorcs speed boost we are slow as hell and easy to predict and compared to a snipers and even the infamous Operative double roll with its defense bonus make us look like a fatty trying to catch a twinkee.

 

CANT WE GET A DEV TO UNDERSTAND THIS? I dont care if this message gets deleted but I want a dev to try and dps in a ranked pvp as a merc. I want them to suffer the slow Hydrolics, panic as they see their shield probe not protecting their heath as they thought it would and pray as they see their life pike up and down closer to death than before with Kolto overload on full blast

 

BUT! Not to fret! we will get a raid buff ability that gives 10% alacrity to you and your friends <3

and some other abilities depending on which tree you go that will make you insta cast or make you immune to interrupt in certain circumstances. Yeah with these we will be unstoppable. (sarcasm but im giggling on the inside)

 

Quote!

[Ashuranrx]

Mercs will get AoE and stun damage reduction in 3.0.

 

I don't think Mercs will get more escape, otherwise melee will complain about getting a new gap closer, and it will be a lame cycle of buffing and nerfing.

[DariusCalera]

I'd be happy if our escapes could be used as often as melee gap closers. (i.e. when exiting combat HO and Jet Boost have their cool downs reduced to zero.)

[Osxoba]

Mercs will get AoE and stun damage reduction in 3.0.

Yeah...

I'm sure that'll fix the class.

Yeah, I'm sure.

[Ashuranrx]

Yeah...

I'm sure that'll fix the class.

Yeah, I'm sure.

 

There is nothing wrong with the class, unless you are talking about solo ranked. Group ranked survivability remains to be seen in 3.0, because the team's survival is heavily dependent on the tank and the healer. Stun damage reduction will help surviving focus fire while the healer heals the merc.

[Nightkin]

There is nothing wrong with the class, unless you are talking about solo ranked.

Wich basically means that there is a serious flaw in our defensive department /facepalm

[TezMoney]

Wich basically means that there is a serious flaw in our defensive department /facepalm

 

No, it just means solo ranked players need to play better, or mercs need to educate their teammates that if they wish to win, they're going to need to peel.

[Osxoba]

No, it just means solo ranked players need to play better, or mercs need to educate their teammates that if they wish to win, they're going to need to peel.

 

I don't think that balance should rely on how well your teammates play. That's horrible balance philosophy.

[TezMoney]

I don't think that balance should rely on how well your teammates play. That's horrible balance philosophy.

 

Nor should it rely on the make up of a solo ranked match without tanks and/or healers..

 

But more to the point it should take into consideration the synergy of the other players on your team. Not all specs have to be an island.

Edited November 22, 2014 by TezMoney

[Nightkin]

Nor should it rely on the make up of a solo ranked match.

 

But more to the point it should take into consideration the synergy of the other players on your team. Not every spec needs to be an island.

Im afraid in solo ranked thats exactly what it needs to be. There shouldnt be one class that everyone need to babysit for it to work because pugs will never ever do that, not gonna happen Edited November 22, 2014 by Nightkin

[Osxoba]

Im afraid in solo ranked thats exactly what it needs to be. There shouldnt be one class that every one need to babysit for it to work because pugs will never ever do that, not gonna happen

Exactly, and since mercs have have to be watched after, they are underperforming.

[TezMoney]

Im afraid in solo ranked thats exactly what it needs to be. There shouldnt be one class that everyone need to babysit for it to work because pugs will never ever do that, not gonna happen

 

A peel is not baby sitting. Every healer speak needs peels for instance. If solo players don't learn to peel for their teammates they are doomed to forever be rank 2 or under blaming the other people on their team.

 

You say players will never do it, but I'm pretty sure you don't always ask. Or do you think players can never improve?

Edited November 22, 2014 by TezMoney

[TezMoney]

Exactly, and since mercs have have to be watched after, they are underperforming.

 

No, mercs have to be watched over because they get focused first. You ever seen what happens when a team focus's a deception sin? How about an operative? How long do you think they survive under 3 dps pressure? Not much longer than a proficient merc.

 

I'm not saying your team need to watch you constantly, just 1 person interrupt the initial burst is fine.

[Osxoba]

No, mercs have to be watched over because they get focused first. You ever seen what happens when a team focus's a deception sin? How about an operative? How long do you think they survive under 3 dps pressure? Not much longer than a proficient merc.

 

I'm not saying your team need to watch you constantly, just 1 person interrupt the initial burst is fine.

 

No, they have more means to escape or at least get them to change targets. Mercs have absolutely nothing to make attackers switch or any way to escape. Kinda hard to stop the burst on them when half of pvp is interrupt immune leapers and invisible melee. In theory it sounds like a good idea, but that's all it is, theory.

[TezMoney]

No, they have more means to escape or at least get them to change targets. Mercs have absolutely nothing to make attackers switch or any way to escape. Kinda hard to stop the burst on them when half of pvp is interrupt immune leapers and invisible melee. In theory it sounds like a good idea, but that's all it is, theory.

 

That doesn't change the fact if a team focuses them they die in short order. This isn't theory, I've seen it in practice many times. Yes they can make teams switch targets, but that's merely a brief respite a coordinated team will be on the healer and then right back on them when they reenter combat. You know what else can allow you to escape? AOE stuns, knockbacks, roots, and slows from your teammates.

Edited November 22, 2014 by TezMoney

[Nightkin]

That doesn't change the fact if a team focuses them they die in short order. This isn't theory, I've seen it in practice many times. Yes they can make teams switch targets, but that's merely a brief respite a coordinated team will be on the healer and then right back on them when they reenter combat. You know what else can allow you to escape? AOE stuns, knockbacks, roots, and slows from your teammates.

All your suggestions makes no sense, these other classes all have abilites to help them survive and get back from a dire situation and that is why easier targets always gets globaled first. You never start on a jug due to ED, you might focus a sage at start but only until barrier is used. You could hump a operative but he will combat stealth sooner or later and you might go gungho on a shadow but he will shroud, force cloak or phasewalk take your pick and thats a change in the combat that your target initiates. A merc cant do that, and since you play one you know this and yet you blame the allies on your/our team for our class weak design? That makes no sense to me.

 

Yes good players can make a difference in any fight regardless of class but each class except mercs have some ability to defend itself, some more succesful classes have several such abilites.

 

So yes, good players will peel for eachother but a sorc or operative who gets peels will still be much more succesful then a merc who gets peels due them being a lot more able to take care of themselfs for the rest of the game.

 

TLDR: Go 2-3 players on almost any class and they have a chance to survive, for a moment atleast all by themselfs. Mercs dont.

[TezMoney]

All your suggestions makes no sense, these other classes all have abilites to help them survive and get back from a dire situation and that is why easier targets always gets globaled first. You never start on a jug due to ED, you might focus a sage at start but only until barrier is used. You could hump a operative but he will combat stealth sooner or later and you might go gungho on a shadow but he will shroud, force cloak or phasewalk take your pick and thats a change in the combat that your target initiates. A merc cant do that, and since you play one you know this and yet you blame the allies on your/our team for our class weak design? That makes no sense to me.

 

Yes good players can make a difference in any fight regardless of class but each class except mercs have some ability to defend itself, some more succesful classes have several such abilites.

 

So yes, good players will peel for eachother but a sorc or operative who gets peels will still be much more succesful then a merc who gets peels due them being a lot more able to take care of themselfs for the rest of the game.

 

TLDR: Go 2-3 players on almost any class and they have a chance to survive, for a moment atleast all by themselfs. Mercs dont.

 

This so frustrating and I finally see why... I'm looking for solutions and you are looking for someone to blame.

 

I'm not blaming anyone. I'm merely stating that the weakness we have can lessened by your teammates this is true for every class is it not?

 

No game design shouldn't make every spec a island capabable of standing up to 3 dps beat down, sry I disagree. There should be classes that are just hard to play.

[Nightkin]

This so frustrating and I finally see why... I'm looking for solutions and you are looking for someone to blame.

 

I'm not blaming anyone. I'm merely stating that the weakness we have can lessened by your teammates this is true for every class is it not?

 

No game design shouldn't make every spec a island capabable of standing up to 3 dps beat down, sry I disagree. There should be classes that are just hard to play.

No i dont think you understand me at all, the only thing i blame is the design mechanic for this class because it is lackluster and ineffiecent.

Balance in mmos is always very difficult to achieve but mercs situation for the past 2 years is past obvious in its flaws. We have never even been a choice for the top pvp teams and that is proof enough.

 

It is true that some players have managed somewhat well but it is as you say, due to the team. But for solo ranked wich is the most common "end game" for pvpers in swtor then you must have a good enough class design to make up for the fact that you very rarely have the support from other classes that you need.

We are not the only class that have this problem, but we are the only class that is in this situation no matter wich spec we play. I hope i made myself more clear now, if not i will be happy to try again.

Edited November 22, 2014 by Nightkin

[TezMoney]

No i dont think you understand me at all, the only thing i blame is the design mechanic for this class because it is lackluster and ineffiecent.

How is that any different from what I said? Saying you blame the design mechanic is no different than blaming the devs, but instead of working around it you demand change. Not saying you don't have a point, merely suggesting it's not the only alternative.

Balance in mmos is always very difficult to achieve but mercs situation for the past 2 years is past obvious in its flaws. We have never even been a choice for the top pvp teams and that is proof enough.

Are you saying there are no top ranked groups that use merc dps?

It is true that some players have managed somewhat well but it is as you say, due to the team. But for solo ranked wich is the most common "end game" for pvpers in swtor then you must have a good enough class design to make up for the fact that you very rarely have the support from other classes that you need.

We are not the only class that have this problem, but we are the only class that is in this situation no matter wich spec we play. I hope i made myself more clear now, if not i will be happy to try again.

At no point was I confused about your outlook on mercs, it's abundantly clear across your other threads. You feel we can't compete w/o an oh shank button. It's not exactly a revolutionary opinion to hold. Clearly you've given up on your sever community and/or improving your own play, and have resorted to asking the dev's to improve our plight. Nothing wrong with that, that's what the forums are for to some extent.

 

My point is, the ranked communities are small enough to learn what to do when they have a merc on their team, just like they learned what to do when they see class a,b, or c on the other team. If you tell them to peel, and they peel, and then win... Then they will do it again and encourage other players to do as well. If the opposing team tries to burn you first in a match and they lose 2-0, they'll think twice the next time they go up against you. This works on a case by case basis of course, nor will it work every match if everything is done perfectly on your end, but the size of the pool works in your favor here cuz they'll recognize you aren't a waste of a peel as well as a merc not so easily global'd.

Edited November 22, 2014 by TezMoney

[DariusCalera]

My point is, the ranked communities are small enough to learn what to do when they have a merc on their team, just like they learned what to do when they see class a,b, or c on the other team. If you tell them to peel, and they peel, and then win... Then they will do it again and encourage other players to do as well. If the opposing team tries to burn you first in a match and they lose 2-0, they'll think twice the next time they go up against you. This works on a case by case basis of course, nor will it work every match if everything is done perfectly on your end, but the size of the pool works in your favor here cuz they'll recognize you aren't a waste of a peel as well as a merc not so easily global'd.

 

I bolded and highlighted the part of your post that I feel is the most important.

 

You are correct in saying that it is all on a case by case basis and you are also correct in saying that it won't work every time if done perfectly.

 

However a toon, any toon, should not have to be played perfectly every time in the hopes that their YOLO team mates will learn to peel for them. There is a pretty small margin of error when it comes to doing this.

 

Most, if not all, of the other classes have some ability, whether it's an escape or a defensive cool down, that allows them to have a wider margin of error while playing. As we both know, some classes have more than one.

 

The fine line that mercs/mandos need to walk to be successful needs to be expanded up so that they are a bit more forgiving in the playstyle and so that they don't have to be played absolutely perfect each time.

[Nightkin]

How is that any different from what I said? Saying you blame the design mechanic is no different than blaming the devs, but instead of working around it you demand change. Not saying you don't have a point, merely suggesting it's not the only alternative.

 

Are you saying there are no top ranked groups that use merc dps?

 

At no point was I confused about your outlook on mercs, it's abundantly clear across your other threads. You feel we can't compete w/o an oh shank button. It's not exactly a revolutionary opinion to hold. Clearly you've given up on your sever community and/or improving your own play, and have resorted to asking the dev's to improve our plight. Nothing wrong with that, that's what the forums are for to some extent.

 

My point is, the ranked communities are small enough to learn what to do when they have a merc on their team, just like they learned what to do when they see class a,b, or c on the other team. If you tell them to peel, and they peel, and then win... Then they will do it again and encourage other players to do as well. If the opposing team tries to burn you first in a match and they lose 2-0, they'll think twice the next time they go up against you. This works on a case by case basis of course, nor will it work every match if everything is done perfectly on your end, but the size of the pool works in your favor here cuz they'll recognize you aren't a waste of a peel as well as a merc not so easily global'd.

Blaming the devs sound so personal and would imply i feel some conspiracy going on wich i dont, but in a way you are also right because getting our ideas to the devs is the only way to improve our situation.

 

I do not in any way whatsoever see "teaching the pvp community" how to peel etc for a merc is a viable solution. For 2 years now people have had a chance to "L2P" and its just not happening and i do not even see it as a option for a solution for our problems. So TLDR on that one is a thunderous yes, i have given up on pugs and i do not wish to impose my very unique needs on their gameplay.

And i say unique needs because other classes have defences so while they would definately benefit from a peel or a taunt, they will still survive for a little bit without babysitting.

 

 

" It's not exactly a revolutionary opinion to hold" this also is very correct because it is an opinion shared by very many players and not only bads who could do with a good ol´dose of "L2P" but by a lot of experienced players who knows through experience how easy it is to focus down a merc due to their lacks of escapes or damage mitigating cooldowns. So theres no wonder here really, experienced pvpers knows this as a fact, not even worth debating.

 

When it comes to moderately succesful merc/mandos in group ranked i have only heard of 2, Nhilas and L-Randle. 2 players, one in europe and one from the US and thats it. Im sure theres a few more somewhere well hidden.

 

When it comes to my own play i have reached the point as merc where i feel that the only thing holding me back is the mechanic. Others may disagree or agree but its kinda irrelevant to this discussion and since 3.0 is literally around the corner we all have to relearn a lot of stuff.

 

My opinion is still the same, this class lacks defences and we need to get that balanced with the other classes, otherwise this will remain the bottom of the barrel class that always gets globaled first in all arenas.

[Nightkin]

I bolded and highlighted the part of your post that I feel is the most important.

 

You are correct in saying that it is all on a case by case basis and you are also correct in saying that it won't work every time if done perfectly.

 

However a toon, any toon, should not have to be played perfectly every time in the hopes that their YOLO team mates will learn to peel for them. There is a pretty small margin of error when it comes to doing this.

 

Most, if not all, of the other classes have some ability, whether it's an escape or a defensive cool down, that allows them to have a wider margin of error while playing. As we both know, some classes have more than one.

 

The fine line that mercs/mandos need to walk to be successful needs to be expanded up so that they are a bit more forgiving in the playstyle and so that they don't have to be played absolutely perfect each time.

I usually dont mind playing a difficult class because that usually means that the class can be pushed further then "normal", so you can pull off some cool stunts every now and again. But the mechanic of mercs are both harsh and unforgiving wich makes the class difficult to play but also has a very low skill roof (meaning you can be super amazing and still be globaled pretty easily).

[Transcendent]

How about we get a jetpack escape/leap with a cool down similar to exfiltrate OPs have? A new ability would calm the community and give mercs at least SOME survivability in pvp. It could be on a cool down with jet boost and would activate a jetpack animation jumping into or out of combat.

 

Thoughts? Feedback?

 

You know I was thinking a little more about this today, I actually don't think mercs need a new ability at all, just a rework of an existing ability and everything that ties in with it to soften it a little bit.

 

Jet Boost currently knocks back your enemies, gives a tiny amount of damage to them and gives them a 4 second slow (when you spec 2/2 into Afterburners). It has a 25 second CD when you spec into Jet Escape (along with a 30 second reduction on determination).

 

Instead of creating a completely new ability, how about simply rework it so Jet Boost actually pushes the player back as well? Remove the tiny amount of damage it causes to the enemy, keep the slow it adds to the enemy but reduce it to 30% instead of 50%, and have it reset Hydraulic Overrides once used. Increase the CD to 30 seconds for Jet Boost (no 5 second reduction from Afterburners). Also add in something similar to the auto dodge chance that operatives get with their roll.

 

Hydraulic Overrides is already on 30 second CD anyway, so it's not dissimilar to the operative roll CD or speed boost available.

 

The point being, it creates more distance, which is what mercs desperately need to occur, currently they simply don't get that, even when they spec the extra 4 meters, plus it also gives that temporary dodge / immunity that mercs also desperately need to level the playing field between the classes (with all the immunity that is going on for all of those classes).

 

Simple rework on an old ability, instead of something completely new.

[DariusCalera]

I usually dont mind playing a difficult class because that usually means that the class can be pushed further then "normal", so you can pull off some cool stunts every now and again. But the mechanic of mercs are both harsh and unforgiving wich makes the class difficult to play but also has a very low skill roof (meaning you can be super amazing and still be globaled pretty easily).

 

But there is a big difference between a class being difficult to play because it is designed that way and one that is difficult to play because it is not given the tools needed to survive.