Sentinel Love, what can Bioware do to keep other players interested in our class?

[JagoPulastra]

Having never played a Consular before, I thank you for pointing me right towards where my AC is going to go, because that sounds wickedly cool.

 

In regards to what I meant, I meant the Former. Not as in a "One Spec Fits All", but as in you have three different trees in your AC that all fulfill very different roles, but are meant to be blended in some way. If done properly? I don't think it would immediately make all other styles and ways to play the class obsolete. Starting simple, we take what you described: You can off-tank, and you can DPS at least enough to be viable. In those regards, though, you are a crummy tank because you aren't full specced as one, and the guys and gals who went for the full DPS Spec are going to wreck face far more than you because damage is their package and they are the delivery service.

 

However, the Hybrid has a greater chance of surviving incoming damage over the DPSer, as he's part Tank. He also will do, on average, more damage than the Tank since he's got some nice sustained and burst damage options.

 

I don't think that would cause a major outcry? Then again, First MMO as I've said before. But if they wanted to keep the "Sentinel" Name for a class, in my opinion it would be pretty cool if they had, so say, a Heal Tree, a Tank Tree, and a DPS Tree. Make them shorter trees so eventually you will fill up a tree by around 30-35 and have those 15-20 extra points that are going to go into another tree, leading to the chance to be a Tank who can also heal herself or her party if the going gets really rough. Granted, if they are healing, they are not tanking, and if they are tanking and healing themself, they are not doing damage, etc., etc., etc. Not to mention, shorter trees also equate to them not having some of the higher tier abilities that are, usually, necessary for the class to shine in its chosen field (picture playing a Focus Sentinel without Force Exhaustion and no way to build Singularity and you'll see what I'm getting at), which means that they will never be top-of-the-line at anything. However, they can adapt to become whatever the party needs of them in that moment, switching between roles on the fly.

 

Maybe I just don't know enough about MMOs and balance issues, but I feel it would be the best way to truly represent what the Sentinel is: the Jack Of All Trades, but Master at none.

 

 

I also feel that I am probably horribly off-topic.

[Bejarid]

Not as in a "One Spec Fits All", but as in you have three different trees in your AC that all fulfill very different roles, but are meant to be blended in some way.

 

Ahh, okay. So, one AC that has a tank tree, a DPS tree, and a healing tree? That's not so bad and is quite common - Paladins/Druids in WoW, for example. The problems with such hybrids, though, is when they're expected - either by design, or player misconception of the actual design - to be able to fulfill multiple needs at once. Talent trees specialize for a reason, to emphasize one class aspect; if you try to mix too many perks, you tend to be less efficient at all of them due to not having all the right tools. Like, on my Commando, I've healed bosses in FPs as Gunnery because the real healer couldn't not stand in fire - we won, but it was a very near thing.

 

That's not to say that such systems are outside the realm of possibility. Guild Wars 2 does something somewhat similar, but there are no "talent trees" there as would be recognized in this game. And GW2 is built without the system of definable roles that have otherwise become the staple of MMOs, so that freedom to perform multiple tricks works really well for that game.

[JagoPulastra]

Alas, this is not that game, this is TOR. I feel that a Hybrid would be the only way to truly represent the Sentinel as it is in canon, because as it stands now we are -incredibly- Guardian, especially considering we do nothing BUT DPS.

 

Never played WoW, so unfortunately I cannot draw comparisons from it. As for making the Sentinel more "interesting", I think I may have been onto something about letting us use more than just 2 blades. I've seen it be asked several times to tweak it so we can use just one, and it would be cool to see each Tree correspond to a certain saber: Juyo is the Saberstaff, meant to be in-your-face aggressive, Ataru would be Jar'kai meant to show acrobatics, skill, and a flurry of rapid attacks, and Shii-Cho would be the single blade, blending Force moves (Sweep, Exhaustion, Stasis) with the saber into a seemless assault.

[Ramtar]

Says who? You? Where is there any shred of proof to that claim? Certainly not in either article on Wookieepedia, which is, of course, a limited resource by its very nature. In fact, there's evidence against your claim.

 

No disrespect, but you need to search the internet a little better. My post, you replied to last, was taken from the last paragraph in Lightsaber Combat Komali's Jedi Order: Form VI - Niman.

 

It should be noted that the fourth form of Lightsaber combat; Ataru; was also known to employ dual blades as part of its training regimen.

 

In any MMO, gaming mechanics can be change by the developers. With a very good chance, of break other mechanics for different parts of the MMO along the way; test servers should be used to catch this.

 

I'm even for adding Niman and Jai'kai (to enhance Juyo, Ataru and Niman) for Weapon Masters. Shadows can do their own requesting for Niman, if they want to.

Edited April 5, 2014 by Ramtar

[Bejarid]

Lightsaber Combat Komali's Jedi Order: Form VI - Niman

 

So your only proof is a website that is in absolutely no way connected with, backed or substantiated by Lucas Licensing? I mean, Wookieepedia's subject to skepticism on its own, but going so far as to try and cite something so completely disconnected is laughable at best.

[Ramtar]

So your only proof is a website that is in absolutely no way connected with, backed or substantiated by Lucas Licensing? I mean, Wookieepedia's subject to skepticism on its own, but going so far as to try and cite something so completely disconnected is laughable at best.

 

Much better than what you used: Nothing.

 

Nimen can be used in Jedi Academy with dual lightsabers: Lucas Arts approved it.

 

No matter, with your opinion, Wookieepedia is one of the best sources concerning Star Wars matter and Lucas Arts, now Disney, would have shut it down years ago if they had a problem with it. Same with the website I cited.

Edited April 5, 2014 by Ramtar

[Bejarid]

Much better than what you used

 

You're the one that brought all this up, so burden of proof is on you, bub - and you just keep dropping the ball. If you can't link anything credible to back your claims, you really haven't got a leg to stand on.

[Ramtar]

You're the one that brought all this up, so burden of proof is on you, bub - and you just keep dropping the ball. If you can't link anything credible to back your claims, you really haven't got a leg to stand on.

 

More credibility than you, and, yes, I did bring it up with proof to back it.

 

As for KotOR II, it was BW that suggested Obsidian Entertainment developing Kotor II per Lucas Arts request. BW still retains the licensing of the Knights of the Old Republic series.

[Bejarid]

I did bring it up with proof to back it.

 

...So, your entire argument is based around "If it's on the Internet, it must be true"? 'Cause I've been keeping a secret - I'm the Infallible God-Emperor of Arrakis, and you're nothing but one of my least witted yet most amusing slaves.

 

But, whatever. You've consistently failed to provide incontrovertible proof, and I'm tired of dealing with your incompetence.

[Vid-szhite]

This whole thread has gone off the rails. I don't even know what's happening anymore.

[Omniscientearl]

This whole thread has gone off the rails. I don't even know what's happening anymore.

 

Right? I step away from the forums for a little while, and my post has been overtaken by a lore argument. Let's get back on track, people!

 

Our class is bleeding players, and I want to know what everyone thinks will bring players back!

[Bejarid]

Our class is bleeding players...

 

Not entirely accurate. I did DP 16sm with 10 Sentinels (including mine) the other day, and it wasn't on purpose.

[Atlanis]

Not entirely accurate. I did DP 16sm with 10 Sentinels (including mine) the other day, and it wasn't on purpose.

 

ROFL, thats about the total population of Hardcore Raiding Sentinels we got on Jarkaisword, twinks excluded;)

 

Oppossed by millions of Sages;-)

 

*This Post exaggerates*

Edited April 8, 2014 by Atlanis

[Vodrin]

Right? I step away from the forums for a little while, and my post has been overtaken by a lore argument. Let's get back on track, people!

 

Our class is bleeding players, and I want to know what everyone thinks will bring players back!

 

I think we pretty well covered the topic though until BW decides what they are doing with Watchman and realizes the focus nerf mandates an improvement in PvP and the spec always could have used some PvE sustained damage love.

[Ramtar]

Right? I step away from the forums for a little while, and my post has been overtaken by a lore argument. Let's get back on track, people!

 

Our class is bleeding players, and I want to know what everyone thinks will bring players back!

 

IMO, the developers lost sight of what this AC is suppose to be. Because, in canon a Jedi Sentinel was the name given to one of the three distinct branches of Jedi that sought a balance between the other two branches, the Consulars and the Guardians. Jedi Sentinels combine the art of combat with skillful manipulation of the Force. Specialized paths included: Jedi Combat: art of using two Lightsabers simultaneously, Jedi Watchman, and Jedi Shadow.

 

Jedi Consular, Jedi Guardian, and Jedi Sentinel are starter classes in: Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic developed by BW and Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: the Sith Lords. But, TOR has 2 Jedi classes: Consular (AC: Sage and Shadow) and Knight (AC: Guardian and Sentinel).

 

Enough history, I would like to see:

 

* Force Push/Pull for this class. Guardians get Force Push, and Consular class get: Force Wave (Push) and Force Pull, where is ours? Force Push would allow 4 piece PvP bonus to be used more often.

 

* Replace Shii-Cho with Niman: Form VI in Focus. Shii-Cho is basic Form I more suitable for single lightsaber users not dual-wielding Sentinels. Niman: Form VI is the primary fighting style of Jedi who dual-wield lightsabers. Yes, I was told Niman was for Shadows, who are Sentinels anyways.

 

* Rework Awe as to do damage for Focus users instead of stun. If Focus Sentinels are suppose to be AOE damage dealers than give them more AOE attacks besides Force Sweep.

Edited April 15, 2014 by Ramtar

[Vodrin]

IMO, the developers lost sight of what this AC is suppose to be. Because, in canon a Jedi Sentinel was the name given to one of the three distinct branches of Jedi that sought a balance between the other two branches, the Consulars and the Guardians. Jedi Sentinels combine the art of combat with skillful manipulation of the Force. Specialized paths included: Jedi Combat: art of using two Lightsabers simultaneously, Jedi Watchman, and Jedi Shadow.

 

Jedi Consular, Jedi Guardian, and Jedi Sentinel are starter classes in: Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic developed by BW and Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: the Sith Lords. But, TOR has 2 Jedi classes: Consular (AC: Sage and Shadow) and Knight (AC: Guardian and Sentinel).

 

Enough history, I would like to see:

 

* Force Push/Pull for this class. Guardians get Force Push, and Consular class get: Force Wave (Push) and Force Pull, where is ours? Force Push would allow 4 piece PvP bonus to be used more often.

 

* Replace Shii-Cho with Niman: Form VI in Focus. Shii-Cho is basic Form I more suitable for single lightsaber users not dual-wielding Sentinels. Niman: Form VI is the primary fighting style of Jedi who dual-wield lightsabers. Yes, I was told Niman was for Shadows, who are Sentinels anyways.

 

* Rework Awe as to do damage for Focus users instead of stun. If Focus Sentinels are suppose to be AOE damage dealers than give them more AOE attacks besides Force Sweep.

 

I don't think it is really practical to make these sort of changes to the class right now as it would require extensive re-balancing of multiple abilities to make it viable.

 

Adding any hard CC to the class would require toning down the burst of combat spec substantially as the fact the spec has no hard CC to protect it's burst and that it's burst is interruptable is currently the only thing keeping combat from being severely overpowered.

 

As for the Awe idea, it goes against what the dev's have stated is their plan for focus spec. They intend for it to be a single target spec with the highest burst and lowest sustained damage of the three specs. My contention is that the spec currently has burst that is only slightly higher than combat while it's sustained damage is well below the other two specs. My solution is to slightly increase the burst while substantially increasing the sustained single target damage. I posted some ideas on how to do this earlier in the thread, along with some solid ideas for reducing the damage ramp up for watchman.

 

Fixing watchman and focus would go a very long way to bringing players back to the class.

[Myriandore]

...I just hope they kill the retard dotsmash. It's so stupid it's not even fun. People work for weeks, months, to master their spec, and then dotsmash arrives. I could almost beat my best watchman parse after like 20 minutes of playing it. Free focus, idiotic rotation, AoE fun for everyone. Kill it. With fire.

That ^

 

Fixing watchman and focus would go a very long way to bringing players back to the class.

And that ^

Edited April 23, 2014 by Myriandore

[Ardarell_Solo]

It's easy to beat Combat and Watchman in Dotsmash that's true, because the specc is very powerful in itself. But if you want to play it to the max, it's not that easy at all, the last 10% of DPS potential are pretty hard to achieve, I find. Not sure if we should ask for the specc to be destroyed, as it's quite rewarding to learn its details and having done so having one of the strongest DPS classes in the game at hand...

[Sappharan]

Why would anyone want a resurgent Sentinel population? Whenever a class has too many devotees it seems to draw as much rancor and acrimony from its detractors as does support from its enthusiasts. You know the comments: fotm, overpowered, EZmode and GODmode. It's a bunch of crap, but the perception is that if it is popular it's the power, not the fun factor, that makes it popular. Naturally what follows is the reactionary nerf or series of nerfs (as we've already endured) without developers quantifying or qualifying fundamental balance problems. To wit, they nerf first and check balance later if at all.

 

Let's just keep this wonderful class to ourselves.

[Ramtar]

Fixing watchman and focus would go a very long way to bringing players back to the class.

 

Adding fun factor to Focus:

 

* Increase the damage reduction for Force Health and Enduring by [3/6]%

* While Shii-Cho Form is active: add the ability to replace OH weapon with a shield generator and increase Crippling Throw to 30 m.

* Adding Zealous Leap to PvP 4 Piece bonus.

* Ability to increase Zealous Leap range to 30 m: allowing for Sentinels to Leap on players under cover.

* Add Force Push 1 or Force Push 2.

* Rework Pulse to include: increasing damage and extending range to Force Stasis to 30 m.

* Rework Momentum: to increase range on Blade Storm to 30 m.

Edited April 25, 2014 by Ramtar

[GrandLordMenace]

Adding fun factor to Focus:

 

* Increase the damage reduction for Force Health and Enduring by [3/6]%

* While Shii-Cho Form is active: add the ability to replace OH weapon with a shield generator and increase Crippling Throw to 30 m.

* Adding Zealous Leap to PvP 4 Piece bonus.

* Ability to increase Zealous Leap range to 30 m: allowing for Sentinels to Leap on players under cover.

* Add Force Push 1 or Force Push 2.

* Rework Pulse to include: increasing damage and extending range to Force Stasis to 30 m.

* Rework Momentum: to increase range on Blade Storm to 30 m.

 

whaddya want to be an RDPS?

 

Jokes aside, I really think these changes are pretty insanely dumb. What do you want to be a guardian?

 

Sents just need Watchman to be fixed and Focus to be more fun and less about derpsmashing since the nerf to the spec. They are a fun class and at very few points in the game's history have they been severely needing a buff. For the most part they are in a viable place, just not the ultimate FOTM, which at any rate is overrated.

[Atlanis]

Hmm for Watchman something like this:

 

Close Quarters / Nahkampf:

Reduces the distance required by Forceleap/Machtsprung by 5/10 Meters.

Additionally you gain 1/2% of Evasion per Stack of Juyo.

 

InspiredGuard/ Eiferschutz::

When attacked while Rebuke/Saberward is active you are healed for 2% of your max hp for every hit you receive regardless if it deals damage or not.

 

For Combat:

 

Schwertschirm / Swoardshield:

When your Ataru Form deals damage you receive a shield that absorbs the damage of the next incoming attack. This effect stacks up to 3 times.

 

For Fokus:

 

Endurance/Ausdauernd:

 

Guarded by the force now last 6/8s and give you 100% Damage reduction. The HP Cost of the effect is removed but now requires 12/8 Fokus to activate.

Edited April 28, 2014 by Atlanis

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

I think that overall Watchman needs some QoL buffs, like this.

 

1. Make Valorous Call/Frenzy grant 4 stacks of Merciless/Annihilate and 6 stacks of Juyo Form. this would reduce ramp up in Ops fights.

 

2. Each stack of Merciless/Annihilate gives 1% extra damage on Slash/Vicious Slash, Force Leap/Force Charge, and Cauterize/Rupture's melee damage. This increases our pitiful burst.

 

3. Give us some sort of useful level 30 skill, like say this. Centering Strike/Furious Slash

 

Centering Strike

 

Focus Cost: 1

Cooldown: 10s

Damage at 55: ~1100 - ~1300

 

Description: Strike the target using your Centered state, per 10 stacks of Centering this ability's damage goes up by 10%. Does not grant Centering. Also infilicts Burning damage on the target for 18 seconds. also when Zen, Inspiration, or Trancendence are active the damage of this ability goes up by 25%

 

Animation would be the animation for Ashara Zavaros' DoT ability (cant remember name). This would be a cool and unique mechanic for Watchman, allowing for more damage when your at 30 stacks of Centering. Also it would add a bit of skill as to when to use Zen, Inspiration or Trancendence because it isnt at peak damage when they are used, only at 25% instead of 30% when at 30 stacks of Centering. It's unique enough to work!

 

These changes plus some new ideas i came up with would be helpful to their PvP Burst and Sustainned

 

Inexhaustable Zeal: Juyo Form now stacks to 6, Merciless and Overload Saber now stack to 4, and all DoT's are un-cleanseable. Reason: one more stack of Overload Saber increases both PvE and PvP damage, and un-cleanseable DoT's increases PvP viability.

 

Repelling Blows - Increases the Duration of Guarded By the Force by 1 second, and Pacify by 2 (moved to Tier 5) Reason: Repelling sounds more like a defencive type name, so it's now repurposed to a defencive talent, that is good QoL for Watchman.

 

Searing Slashes - Increases the surge of all attacks that hit a burning target by 10%/20% and increases the damage of all DoT's by 1.5%/3%. (Replaces Repelling Blows) Reason: This will increase our Sustained damage and makes Burning Focus more useful, also makes us think about taking more Crit, which makes us already more effective because of DoT healing.

 

Merciless Zeal: Periodic Damage that Critically Hits has a 50%/100% chance to heal you for 1%/1.5% Reason: Balance between current and the old one that was 2%.

Edited April 29, 2014 by Kaos_KidSWTOR

[Ardarell_Solo]

You do realize, that would mean complete and utter disruption of class balance?

 

-> Pick some of the options and tune them down, otherwise you're not being helpful to the class.

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

You do realize, that would mean complete and utter disruption of class balance?

 

-> Pick some of the options and tune them down, otherwise you're not being helpful to the class.

 

You do realize that all of these except maybe the tweak to the DoT heals isnt too OP...

 

Valorous Call is on a long enough CD to make it viable to be used as an Instant ramp-up, if you think it's OP, then give it to Inspiration, that will put it on a longer CD.

 

lets see, adding a total of 4% damage to our main abilities at 4 stacks of Merciless isnt OP. Neither is my idea for "Centering Strike" which deals more damage as our Centering ramps up, and is on a decent CD. if you think it has too short a CD, put it at a 15s CD and make it cost 2 Focus.

 

My theoretical change to Inexhaustable Zeal isnt too OP, it's only about 1k - 2k extra from Overload Saber. and Searing Slashes makes more sense than the current Repelling Blows. and my change for Repelling Blows isnt that great, so that can leave. same with the DoT crit heal boost.

 

There, happy now?

 

Also, Do you realize that the classes in this game ARENT balanced?