Nethgilne Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 I'm not here to argue for or against drone carriers being over powered, I haven't seen enough numbers to make that claim. I do, however, have criticisms on their overall gameplay design in that drones are played more or less like mines: Stationary and autonomous, expect with great range and utility that comes at the cost of cool down time. Please correct me if i've over simplified their uses. As a mental exercise I've been brainstorming ways the drone carrier may be redesigned to greater differentiate itself from mine carriers, while potentially addressing some frustrations that players have when encountering them. The main points of this hypothetical redesign are as follows: 1) Drones will follow the player ship as opposed to being stationary 2) Drones will be classified into two categories, Defense turrets and support drone 3) Drone power and cooldown times scale with weapon subsystem power allocation to expand on these points: 1) Drones will follow the player ship as opposed to being stationary - this is the meat of the redesign. Instead of being mines that are laid and forgotten by the pilot, they are now extension of the player ship managed by the player. and any action taken by the drones draws attention directly to the carrier. This allows the drone carrier to play a more mobile and active play style while alleviating the frustration experienced by other players of being attacked from random directions by small, hard to identify targets. Drones following the player can still be individually targeted and destroyed separate of the player drone carrier 2) Drones will be classified into two categories, Defense turrets and support drone - defense turrets will include the rail gun and standard blaster drone. However, they will now fire in a limited arc fore or aft of the carrier as dictated by the player. Rail guns will have a small firing arc, but long range and lower overall DPS. Alternately the blaster drone will have short range, but greater coverage and higher DPS. The overall intention for these "turrets" will be to either help the carrier player defend his six or add some forward DPS should the opportunity arise. They will not, however, shoot at all things at all angles The other drone slot will now carry 1 of several "support" drones that are omni-directional. Proposed support drones are the repair drone, some kind of debuff drone and the missile drone. Repair and debuff drones are self explanatory and behave as they do in game now, only following the player instead of being stationary. I've included missile drones to this list because they'll act as an option to provide area wide dps support. The drone will have limited missile ammo and the player cannot select targets for the missile support drone 3) Drone power and cooldown times scale with weapon subsystem power allocation - this last caveat is to give drone carrier players and incentive to shuttle energy into weapons and provide a risk/reward mechanic that doesn't favor putting all power to shields. I suppose a 4th possible redesign will be to take player controlled missiles away from the drone carrier given the utility this redesign has given them. I'd like to conclude that I am in no way under the impression that the devs can institute such a radical redesign. I only write this out because i can't sleep and would like some input on the ideas. Thanks for reading this far. Good hunting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin_Kelvar Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) Interesting idea, there are several problems I see with having drones follow the bomber: 1) it would effectively give bombers "tail gunners." Now to be fair light bombers do sometimes have tailgunners but this could nevertheless be a problem in that bombers could fly anywhere assured of 360 degree cover. At least right now you can attempt to herd bombers away from their drones 2) they would always be in range of their repair drone which would make it take longer to kill them and in turn increase the odds of escorting fighters shooting them off the bomber's six before they could complete their work. 3) what happens if the bomber is destroyed but the drone isn't? If it can't be free standing that means you loose drones as soon as the bomber is destroyed. Which could be a problem since a bomber couldn't set up a safe repair zone assured that, even if they die, their drones will at least help their teammates until they finish the respawn. 4) The drones could effectively become shields blocking shots to the bomber's hull or making it difficult to lock a missile on them and making them harder to kill. Honestly though in my striker the only times I've found drones troublesome was when I've been in matches against premades or where my team is just not as good as the pugs on the other team and in either case we'd have probably still lost even if there weren't any bombers. When it's a fairly even match drones can be annoying but are hardly OP game breaking. Edited February 10, 2014 by Gavin_Kelvar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zharik Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 3) what happens if the bomber is destroyed but the drone isn't? If it can't be free standing that means you loose drones as soon as the bomber is destroyed. Which could be a problem since a bomber couldn't set up a safe repair zone assured that, even if they die, their drones will at least help their teammates until they finish the respawn. When a bomber is destroyed, all of their mines/drones blow up, period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llama-Eight Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 It's an interesting idea, but I think #2 below would be an issue. 2) they would always be in range of their repair drone which would make it take longer to kill them and in turn increase the odds of escorting fighters shooting them off the bomber's six before they could complete their work. IMO, if the players who have issues targetting drones/mines would learn to use tab, I think they'd find it a lot easier to deal with them. Kinda like when in ground PvP everyone realised that they could use an interrupt to reduce a Gunnery Commando's DPS. Drones/mines aren't difficult to target/click on & if they are, use tab, or R if you think you've just been hit by one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCaliban Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) I would love to fly around the battlefield with a repair drone, sentry drone, and two seeker mines following me. This would not make me far more powerful and I think the developers should introduce this immediately. Edit: A mobile persistent interdiction sphere would also be totally balanced. Having a 10k railgun that targets and shoots at anything with 100% accuracy sounds pretty nice as well. Because it only shoots at things in front of me, it should be balanced, as I can't possibly spin in a circle. The more I think about this, the better it becomes. Edited February 10, 2014 by MCaliban Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToMyMa Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 It's an interesting idea, but I think #2 below would be an issue. IMO, if the players who have issues targetting drones/mines would learn to use tab, I think they'd find it a lot easier to deal with them. Kinda like when in ground PvP everyone realised that they could use an interrupt to reduce a Gunnery Commando's DPS. Drones/mines aren't difficult to target/click on & if they are, use tab, or R if you think you've just been hit by one. R doesn't work with drones, iirc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llama-Eight Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) R doesn't work with drones, iirc I'm not sure about that, as I've hit R & got a drone (railgun drones to be precise) several times before. If you're being attacked by a drone & a player, the player may be more likely to be hitting you hence R is more likely to give them rather than the drone. Edited February 10, 2014 by Llama-Eight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoom_VI Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Why do Drone carriers have to be redesigned? I can kill their drones faster than the things can shoot me. I'm more concerned about minelayers (at least from a scout's PoV) with all their 500+ damage direct to hull. Seriously you just zerg a node in dominion and carpet bomb it with mines and its yours, since any defender gets instagibbed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaivers Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) Check out the previous threads about this. "BioWare, DON'T put autonomous damaging drones in GSF...": http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=7104688#post7104688 "Bomber Arsenal": http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=713548&highlight=Bomber+Arsenal "Fresh off the PTS some bombers straight dope": http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=715353 Good ideas regarding design were even proposed by beta testers. "[Feedback] More on Bombers": http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=695198&highlight=bombers IMO: Turret positions located on the bomber are actually the best option because they have a limited FOV, requiring the pilot to maneuver and maintain situational awareness. There is even precedence for turret positions in the lore: "K-Wing": http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=719467&highlight=K-Wing Edited February 10, 2014 by Kaivers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoloGrinder Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 I'm not here to argue for or against drone carriers being over powered, I haven't seen enough numbers to make that claim. I do, however, have criticisms on their overall gameplay design in that drones are played more or less like mines: Stationary and autonomous, expect with great range and utility that comes at the cost of cool down time. Please correct me if i've over simplified their uses. As a mental exercise I've been brainstorming ways the drone carrier may be redesigned to greater differentiate itself from mine carriers, while potentially addressing some frustrations that players have when encountering them. The main points of this hypothetical redesign are as follows: 1) Drones will follow the player ship as opposed to being stationary 2) Drones will be classified into two categories, Defense turrets and support drone 3) Drone power and cooldown times scale with weapon subsystem power allocation to expand on these points: 1) Drones will follow the player ship as opposed to being stationary - this is the meat of the redesign. Instead of being mines that are laid and forgotten by the pilot, they are now extension of the player ship managed by the player. and any action taken by the drones draws attention directly to the carrier. This allows the drone carrier to play a more mobile and active play style while alleviating the frustration experienced by other players of being attacked from random directions by small, hard to identify targets. Drones following the player can still be individually targeted and destroyed separate of the player drone carrier 2) Drones will be classified into two categories, Defense turrets and support drone - defense turrets will include the rail gun and standard blaster drone. However, they will now fire in a limited arc fore or aft of the carrier as dictated by the player. Rail guns will have a small firing arc, but long range and lower overall DPS. Alternately the blaster drone will have short range, but greater coverage and higher DPS. The overall intention for these "turrets" will be to either help the carrier player defend his six or add some forward DPS should the opportunity arise. They will not, however, shoot at all things at all angles The other drone slot will now carry 1 of several "support" drones that are omni-directional. Proposed support drones are the repair drone, some kind of debuff drone and the missile drone. Repair and debuff drones are self explanatory and behave as they do in game now, only following the player instead of being stationary. I've included missile drones to this list because they'll act as an option to provide area wide dps support. The drone will have limited missile ammo and the player cannot select targets for the missile support drone 3) Drone power and cooldown times scale with weapon subsystem power allocation - this last caveat is to give drone carrier players and incentive to shuttle energy into weapons and provide a risk/reward mechanic that doesn't favor putting all power to shields. I suppose a 4th possible redesign will be to take player controlled missiles away from the drone carrier given the utility this redesign has given them. I'd like to conclude that I am in no way under the impression that the devs can institute such a radical redesign. I only write this out because i can't sleep and would like some input on the ideas. Thanks for reading this far. Good hunting. Interesting proposition. It would require more skill from the drone carrier pilot because they would have to be in the combat zone how ever it would make them stronger by giving them escort ships. I think i like the idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nethgilne Posted February 10, 2014 Author Share Posted February 10, 2014 I would love to fly around the battlefield with a repair drone, sentry drone, and two seeker mines following me. This would not make me far more powerful and I think the developers should introduce this immediately. Edit: A mobile persistent interdiction sphere would also be totally balanced. Having a 10k railgun that targets and shoots at anything with 100% accuracy sounds pretty nice as well. Because it only shoots at things in front of me, it should be balanced, as I can't possibly spin in a circle. The more I think about this, the better it becomes. For obvious balance issues one wouldn't be allowed to stack so many drones. Just one turret that can cover your front OR back and one support drone, one of which CAN be there for additional DPS. I'd also imagine that the DPS output for the turrets be tuned so that they are on par or slightly exceed the DPS of other classes ONLY when combined with fire from the players primary weapon. In other words, the DPS of a railgun drone will never match up to a GS railgun. I'd imagine that it'll be about 40-50% of a GS weapon I can see potential issues with mobile interdiction spheres. One could limit the radius so that the drone can be focus fired from a distance. maybe just tone down the effectiveness? Or just dump it as a drone entirely. This is more of a detail in fine tuning that can only be measured with testing. Same goes for the self heals. potentially OP. Aside from players quickly learning to target the drones first, I'd also suggest that the repair drone only be allowed to heal one player at a time, with priority given to the host drone carrier. Secondly, repairs should drain energy from primary weapons reserves, so again, playing a drone carrier would require more attention from the player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nethgilne Posted February 10, 2014 Author Share Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) Why do Drone carriers have to be redesigned? I can kill their drones faster than the things can shoot me. I'm more concerned about minelayers (at least from a scout's PoV) with all their 500+ damage direct to hull. Seriously you just zerg a node in dominion and carpet bomb it with mines and its yours, since any defender gets instagibbed. I'm not sure how drone carriers stack up to mine layers from a pure balance perspective. But I just don't like how drones play very much like mines as they are now. They're just different degrees of "samyness". 1) Drop Mine/drone 2) fly away 3) try not to be noticed 4)??? (added in edit) 5) profit I see a serious missed opportunity for the drone carrier to differentiate itself as a MOBILE support vehicle. Something akin to the flying fortresses of WW2 era bombers: Bristling with guns, dangerous if left alone but completely vulnerable once you've picked away its defensive weapons. *edit 1- missed crucial step Edited February 10, 2014 by Nethgilne Missed point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToMyMa Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 I'm not sure how drone carriers stack up to mine layers from a pure balance perspective. But I just don't like how drones play very much like mines as they are now. They're just different degrees of "samyness". 1) Drop Mine/drone 2) fly away 3) try not to be noticed 4) profit I see a serious missed opportunity for the drone carrier to differentiate itself as a MOBILE support vehicle. Something akin to the flying fortresses of WW2 era bombers: Bristling with guns, dangerous if left alone but completely vulnerable once you've picked away its defensive weapons. You missed a step: the famous "???" step. Please edit your message to include this crucial point! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaivers Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) Here's another bomber with a turret position. The H-Wing: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/BTS-A2_Long-Range_Strike_Fighter/Bomber Edit: I didn't even realize the most popular and venerable Y-Wing Bomber also has a turret! http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/BTL_Y-wing_starfighter Edited February 11, 2014 by Kaivers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nethgilne Posted February 10, 2014 Author Share Posted February 10, 2014 Here's another bomber with a turret position. The H-Wing: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/BTS-A2_Long-Range_Strike_Fighter/Bomber I like it! I would love it if BW could figure out how to implement multiplayer ships with crews manning engines, defenses and helm. One day, if and when the GSF devs decide to add new ship classes to the mix, I hope they'll consider some of these ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaivers Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 I like it! I would love it if BW could figure out how to implement multiplayer ships with crews manning engines, defenses and helm. One day, if and when the GSF devs decide to add new ship classes to the mix, I hope they'll consider some of these ideas. They will probably use our class ships for multiplayer space combat. I won't be surprised if they introduce new class ships for that specific purpose. If its too late to redesign the current bombers hopefully they will consider the community's suggestions for the third type. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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