nightsproull Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 I'm just curious. Did you play fury warriors in WoW, where it as a viable role...sometimes? I'm not trying to offend, it's just that I check this forum for jugg tanking advice, and it seems inundated with threads about dps and pvp, two topics that I'm not interested in. My forum journeys have shown me a lot of guilds looking for Sin tanks, not juggs, so I would think the complaint threads would focus more in that direction, rather than that of dps. Do we suck at both, when it comes to leading groups into hard content? I don't want this to turn into a mechanics thread, as there are plenty of those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luckygunslinger Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 (edited) I'm just curious. Did you play fury warriors in WoW, where it as a viable role...sometimes? I'm not trying to offend, it's just that I check this forum for jugg tanking advice, and it seems inundated with threads about dps and pvp, two topics that I'm not interested in. My forum journeys have shown me a lot of guilds looking for Sin tanks, not juggs, so I would think the complaint threads would focus more in that direction, rather than that of dps. Do we suck at both, when it comes to leading groups into hard content? I don't want this to turn into a mechanics thread, as there are plenty of those. I went Jugg DPS because back when 2.0 first launched, my old guild (now dead) was having trouble downing HM Dashroode and Operator IX. I was our tank and we were pushing Enrage timers at the time. It boiled down to a poorly optimized Powertech DPS who didn't know their rotation and stacked Endurance crystals and had 61's unaugged while we were full 69's augged at the time. The Officer of the guild was buddies with the Powertech and would not listen to our complaints of his gear. The powertech had to leave game so we pulled in a friend to tank and I put my DPS set on. We cleared TFB with me DPS'ing and Cleared most of HM S&V also. You're right to ask why. I'm my team's main tank, Juggernaut of course. I want to DPS, having me as a tank is better, not because the class sucks, because double Powertech tank sucks, though is do-able. We're great maintanks and off tanks. Our Cooldowns let us take tons of punishment when needed and saber reflect helps out a bunch. We're also the best class who can apply the armor reduction. A lot of guilds will run Sin tanks because of Shroud. A tank who can self cleanse? That's a giant appeal to people and it's understandable, but Juggernaut is still a versatile tank regardless. Each tank now has it's own little piece of identity. Jugg is the cooldown tank with armor reduction. PT is the tank who sits there, gets slapped and shrugs. Assassin is the super threat generating debuff tank with a cleanse. I find one tank is not favored over the other anymore, especially since Shadow's are fixed. Jugg DPS used to suck. Next Tuesday our update puts us a head of a lot of classes. Sorc, Powertech, Assassin, Sniper in some specs (Marksman I believe). We'll have one of the best on demand bursts in the game and our execute phases will also be a lot better due to Vicious Throw Spam on top of constant ravages. Jugg is a great class and is now the best it has ever been. (Though I'd like to have our old execute back....) Edited January 30, 2014 by Luckygunslinger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luckeyduckey Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 DPS wise, you can easily pull viable numbers next patch. Pyro mercs will parse higher, sure, but if you're clearing the content effectively, the rest is just epeen. Jugg tanks are controlling, CC heros. What does that mean? They're great in PvP because they can control the battlefield like no one else, and in PvE, they can take tons of damage, and survive it with ease due to their ondemand burst defensive cooldowns. Passively, they're probably the weakest, but they have lots of tools. As for HM ops, a good tank is what is wanted. Doesn't matter if you're a sin, PT, or Jugg. If you know the mechanics and your class, and you're geared, you're fine. I personally prefer to run with Jugg tanks, as Intercede and Charge really allow them to have 100% up time on a boss, and can allow them to quickly pull threat back if a DPS blow theirs CDs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightsproull Posted January 31, 2014 Author Share Posted January 31, 2014 Interesting information in the replies. I guess I'm really a healer at heart, but I also enjoying tanking. My Jugg just finished oricon, so I'm not quite ready for ops yet, but I plan to explore them as soon as I can. Hoping that I won't be too terrible. Maybe I'll give dps a shot, but i like short queue times and lots of responsibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drekz Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 I used to play a bit as a tank. Now these were fps, not ops. I found that I had often problem with aoe, as a Juggernaut tank doesn't have that many aoe attacks. Currently I'm DPS (Vengeance) and I enjoy it. The rotation is ****ed up however it will be fixed in the next patch (as people before me have stated). For some odd reason I just like the rotation (will like even more after they fix it) so I'll be staying as Vengeance DPS =) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnalisNailo Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 (edited) Been meaning to respond to this thread for a couple days now but because I dont have my security key on my phone it makes it hard to reply when I'm on campus since I keep my physical key attached to Bobba Fett plushie at home. Anyways, No, I did not play a Fury Warrior in WoW, I tried WoW about a year ago, made it to about level 11 or so before I got bored and came here. When I first played the game, back in the closed Betas, Enalis was originally a Marauder, however; I did not particularly care for the combat style, felt they were glass cannons (They were at the time!) and the dual saber feel just did not fit the character I envisioned Enalis as (I'm an RPer.) So when the game went live I rolled a Juggernaut. I tinkered with various builds as I leveled, tried tanking and just simply did not enjoy it on a Juggernaut, this was apparent from very very early in my leveling (I had a max level toon within two weeks of the game launching.) I picked up Vengeance and fell in love. I continue to play the spec for several reasons, the most important may shock some of the people who know me as well. Vengeance fits Enalis from an RP perspective, aesthetically it is as close as I can get in this game to who I envision my character's fighting style, albeit with a few alternations. The second biggest reason, well I'm damn good at it. I currently lead my Server's DPS board for Juggernaut/Guardian and also held it for a significant amount of time pre-2.0 for both Sanctum of the Exalted, and Ebon Hawk after the transfers. I honestly can't remember if I held it all the way up to 2.0 or if I had been edged out before 2.0 dropped. What reputation I do have on my server though, comes largely from my ability to play a what many viewed as a sub-par class at the highest levels of content, and succeed at it. I currently on my main account have a roster of six max level toons (See my signature) and out of all of them my Vengeance Juggernaut remains my favorite to play, Enalis has been my main man since day one, and continues to be my main to this day. As stated above by Arty, all three tanks have their own particular niche. I'd say the only time a tank "sucks" is when you have two of the same tanks together. The Juggernaut has amazing CC (Pesky Interogators) as a tank and amazing cool downs. I feel comfortable with really any tanking combination so long as it isn't a double. Most the raid groups I have been in, until very recently, were lead by Juggernaut main tanks. As for DPS, our woes are mostly in the past now as a Vengeance Juggernaut. The 2.6 buff coming out soon revamps the rampage talent, almost completely removing RNG from our spec, the only RNG that remains is for Destroyer procs which is a much more minimal DPS fluctuation than Ravage. In my own experiments on the PTS, my DPS has risen by 300 (from parsing in the 3150-3200 range to the 3450-3500 range) and I still got a fair amount of pieces to get to complete my gear and I'm certain that there are mistakes in those rotations that are costing me DPS. Ravage alone saw a increase from being 20% of my damage to being about 31% of my damage. This seems to be standard across the Vengeance/Vigilance community. So stick with it, the worst is behind us now. Edited February 1, 2014 by EnalisNailo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maudril Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 Sure, tank balance is great now. Jugs are harder to keep threat on, especially mobs (when AOE taunt + Saber Reflect) is on cooldown or impractical for a pull. People shy away from it because it is arguably boring (mostly attributed to its lack of DPS) So, what the tank community is whining about now Shadow/Assassin: "Our rotation is too tight!" "Moar time on protection stacks plox" Jug/Guardian: "Our DPS sucks!" "We are the worst tanks now!" (lol) PT/Vanguard: "Sustained threat sucks!" "Why do we even exist, Shadows and Guardians do it better!" But no, there is no suboptimal tank as far as I know, just suboptimal tank combes (no doubling up the tanks) Also, How the hell do you offtank as a guardian tank? Most of your resources come from gettin hit! Only way I can think of is take full shien spec (minus all Shien talents), spec rest in Immo, and switch to Soresu when you need to tank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrandLordMenace Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 Jugg+Jugg is a terrible combo, the only good doubletank combo is Assassin + Assassin Tank balance is great though, they each have playstyles and merits. None of it really needs to be changed in any major way whatsoever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luckygunslinger Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 (edited) Jugg+Jugg is a terrible combo, the only good doubletank combo is Assassin + Assassin Tank balance is great though, they each have playstyles and merits. None of it really needs to be changed in any major way whatsoever. Depends on the fight. Double Jugg = Force Execution in Raptus does 0 total damage in the entire fight due to Saber Reflect. Raptus will punch himself in the face for about 4.5k every time. Edited February 1, 2014 by Luckygunslinger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maudril Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Depends on the fight. Double Jugg = Force Execution in Raptus does 0 total damage in the entire fight due to Saber Reflect. Raptus will punch himself in the face for about 4.5k every time. 4.5K is the Saber Reflect damage cap? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TACeMossie Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Depends on the fight. Double Jugg = Force Execution in Raptus does 0 total damage in the entire fight due to Saber Reflect. Raptus will punch himself in the face for about 4.5k every time. Still misses out on the 5% DR from Force Exhaustion/(PT Tier 1 talent that the name escapes me) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luckygunslinger Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 (edited) Still misses out on the 5% DR from Force Exhaustion/(PT Tier 1 talent that the name escapes me) Annihilation Mara applies it also. I happen to have one in my group. Double Assassin can't apply armour reduction. PT can't apply Armor reduction or accuracy reduction constantly, Oilslick doesn't count as it's only a temporary debuff for a small window. There's pros and cons for double tanking. 4.5K is the Saber Reflect damage cap? It's something like 4635 or something. Can't remember the exact number but it's about 4 and a half K. If you reflect Execution or Doom you'll see the number Edited February 2, 2014 by Luckygunslinger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrandLordMenace Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 Annihilation Mara applies it also. I happen to have one in my group. Double Assassin can't apply armour reduction. PT can't apply Armor reduction or accuracy reduction constantly, Oilslick doesn't count as it's only a temporary debuff for a small window. There's pros and cons for double tanking. It's something like 4635 or something. Can't remember the exact number but it's about 4 and a half K. If you reflect Execution or Doom you'll see the number Can also reflect brontes lightning orbs. 80k threat but 4.6k damage reflected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightsproull Posted February 5, 2014 Author Share Posted February 5, 2014 Cool stuff to know. Thanks for dishing out some tips and info on the mechanics that make Juggs valuable. We're not called Huggernauts for nothing, after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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