Reflex or Overkill augments?

[Chazcon]

Trooper Vanguard DPS 8 36 2 Tactics

 

Everything else being equal, all Reflex augs or all Overkill augs? And why? Has anyone run any math or testing on this?

[Mastershroom]

Reflex. Any class with a main stat boost skill in their skill trees should augment for their main stat. The only two that augment Power instead are Sentinels and Shadows, since they don't get any extra main stat from their trees. I haven't done the math personally, but IIRC, the bonus damage and crit chance from main stat works out to be a little more valuable than just the bonus damage from Power when you have that extra 9% Aim.

[Chazcon]

Interesting and makes sense, my Vanguard DPS does indeed have +9% Aim from a talent, so reflex on him, which is what I have already so cool.

 

Funny I also have a Shadow, so all Overkill on him based on what you're saying.

 

Would be interested to see what the math is for Power vs. Mainstat and how it affects DPS over a long fight or parse like 5m.

[ArchangelLBC]

Actually, I understand that main stat augments are best for every class, but even better for classes with stat boosts in their trees.

[Chazcon]

Numbers, I want to see numbers! Or I could get off my lazy game-playing butt and do the math myself.

[MGNMTTRN]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=6273527&postcount=19

 

Mainstat augments are superior to Overkill augments in all PVE and PVP content for every healer and DPS spec in this game as of 2.6. It doesn't matter what your surge rating is, what your crit rating is, or what your mainstat multiplier is. The only potential exception would be attacking tanks in PVP. I never bothered looking at that. Yes, even for Focus Knights you want mainstat augments.

[Chazcon]

Thank you that is exactly what I was looking for.

[IInox]

Reflex. Any class with a main stat boost skill in their skill trees should augment for their main stat. The only two that augment Power instead are Sentinels and Shadows, since they don't get any extra main stat from their trees. I haven't done the math personally, but IIRC, the bonus damage and crit chance from main stat works out to be a little more valuable than just the bonus damage from Power when you have that extra 9% Aim.

 

no willpower still better especially for shadow.

[Chazcon]

no willpower still better especially for shadow.

 

This was addressed further down the thread. As of 2.6 for all non-tank ACs, you want mainstat augments. Reading ftw.

Edited February 10, 2014 by Chazcon

[Carisana]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=6273527&postcount=19

 

Mainstat augments are superior to Overkill augments in all PVE and PVP content for every healer and DPS spec in this game as of 2.6. It doesn't matter what your surge rating is, what your crit rating is, or what your mainstat multiplier is. The only potential exception would be attacking tanks in PVP. I never bothered looking at that. Yes, even for Focus Knights you want mainstat augments.

 

Does anyone know if this still holds true in 3.0? I'm reading conflicting info. that healers should use overkill augs instead of main stat.

[Cidgarrillo]

Does anyone know if this still holds true in 3.0? I'm reading conflicting info. that healers should use overkill augs instead of main stat.

 

The difference will be like 10 more or less bonus damage/healing and +-2% crit. Your APM will be more relevant in your healing/Damage than the augments.

 

If i'm no mistaken Dipstick is trying to get a character spreadsheet for 3.0. You should conctact him if you want a proper anwswer.

[FoE_Khorne]

The difference will be like 10 more or less bonus damage/healing and +-2% crit. Your APM will be more relevant in your healing/Damage than the augments.

 

If i'm no mistaken Dipstick is trying to get a character spreadsheet for 3.0. You should conctact him if you want a proper anwswer.

 

Its more like 24 bonus damage vs 1.36% crit

[Cidgarrillo]

Its more like 24 bonus damage vs 1.36% crit

 

think that if you ade doing 4000 of dps:

4000*1,36% (crit)*67%(surge)=42,88 damage

Those 43 of damage per second are given by the crit given by the mainstat augment

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We did some fast calculations with mainstat and power augments with a marauder of mine (the calculations should be the same)

 

 

Buffs: 5% mainstat and 5% bonus damage.

DPS of our marauder: 4000 (yea, it was more like 4003 and 3980 but 4000 will work)

The bonus damage of our sith marauder is 1222,7

Doing fast maths the Bonus damage power gives is: 0,23

Doing fast maths the bonus damage (without accounting crit) mainstat gives is: 0,2 (we got 0,199)

Number of augments used: 10 so it was like 520

If we use the manstat augments we would get like 546 total mainstat

546 mainstat give us: 109,2 bonus damage (114,66 with the sith warrior buff)

If we use the power augments we would get like 520 total power

520 power give us: 119,6 bonus damage (125,58 with sith warrior buff)

 

 

If we consider that there is a linear relationship between bonus damage and DPS we get that every point of bonus damage give us 3,27 DPS (it is not, every abilitie has its own coef)

So the power give us: 410,65 dps.

 

And the mainstat is more complicated: mainstat damage: pure DPS+totaldamage*crit*surge so....

We saw that at his level (the crit that mainstat gives has dimishing returns) gave him 1,2% crit

 

 

The mainstat give us: 374,96 dps+4000*0,012*0,67

The mainstat give us: 407,12

 

_______________________________________________

 

That math was fast (napkin maths we call it in our language). So it is all aprox and is is just wrong but it gives us interesting info:

 

a)We would need really high surge (really high, over 100% surge) to make the mainstat augments worh it. Probably it will worth it for classes with bonus surge. It will be lower their maximum dps but it will make it more constant.

 

b)Classes with autocrith would prefer to choose power augments.

 

c) The variation is low enough to not give a real change until full sm gear or hm gear and still at max it would be 100 dps.

 

___________________________________________________________________

 

 

I really really realy would love a guy with better knowledge at maths and a proper software like mathematica or wxmaxima correct my calculations since it sucks a little

Edited December 7, 2014 by Cidgarrillo

[Ailaria]

If we consider that there is a linear relationship between bonus damage and DPS

 

There is a linear relationship between those, or at least close enough. However, you seem to have completely ignored base damage, i.e. the fact that we would still deal damage even if we could hypothetically get 0 bonus damage. So you've used a relationship of the form y = a x, when what's really going on is y = a x + b. I don't know exact numbers about base damage, but my intuition says that that assumption alone will skew the numbers enough to make the conclusions unreliable or even downright false.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for napkin maths and most of what you said is probably correct, I just think that one assumption you made is much too inaccurate. Of course I could be wrong, I don't know how significant the base damage actually is, but I think it's significant enough.

 

I've had a lot of discussions about this stuff in the past, and invariably the result has always been the same: there's no universal answer, you need to theorycraft each class and spec separately to get the correct answer (and the answer is sometimes surprising).

 

Having said all that, my intuition says that power augments will see a lot more use due to the removal of main stat bonuses from skill trees, but e.g. watchman sentinels still had strength as their BiS augment for a long while (only dread master gear changed that) even though they've never had any bonuses to str from skill trees.

Edited December 7, 2014 by Ailaria

[Cidgarrillo]

Maybe you are right.

 

I guess my best easy and fast option is just remove all the power and mainstat possible and compare bonus damage and dps to get just an estimation of "how wrong" my calculations are.

 

Thanks for the answer.

[Ailaria]

One idea I've toyed with is to do the following: assume that you need at least the amount of crit rating corresponding to the crit you get from a full set of augments. Now, knowing that, simply convert the crit from your main stat augments into crit rating and the bonus damage into power. If the amount of crit rating + power adds up to more than that of the power augments, then main stat is a clear winner with absolutely no dispute.

 

The reason why the above works is simple: power and crit share the same "slot" throughout your gear, so they're effectively interchangeable (with the one exception of relics, but that's not relevant here). Thus, if your BiS gear contains any crit rating at all, then necessarily the BiS gear will be at a point where adding 1 crit rating increases your dps by as much as adding 1 power; otherwise, your gear wouldn't be BiS (here I'm ignoring the fact that you can't get any arbitrary number of power since enhancements, mods etc. have specific amounts on them, but that's a minor detail).

 

I hope the above made sense to you, I've found people tend to have a difficult time grasping this idea so maybe I'm just bad at explaining it. Anyway, if you do that, you avoid having to do any estimates about the player's dps, you can ignore ability coefficients and so on. There is just one caveat: you need to know how much crit rating the BiS gear has, because main stat and crit rating don't have the same diminishing returns. But basically you could determine precisely how much crit rating your BiS gear needs to have to make main stat augments better than power augments, just by running the numbers for all possible levels of crit rating (which is where Mathematica might come in handy).

 

Sorry, maybe I'm rambling, and I don't have time to run the numbers myself. I just figured I'd post this here since you seem interested about this. =) I particularly like this idea because it's the only way I've seen of solving this problem that really makes use of the fact that main stat is really just a combination of power and crit; sure, everyone accounts for it, but they tend to take the long way around instead of using that fact to simplify the problem.

 

PS. I did do the numbers in the last expansion, but I posted them on a theorycrafting forum which sadly no longer exists. I think my conclusion back then favored main stat augments, but the analysis fell apart simply because almost no spec in those days wanted any crit whatsoever. This is really the point where almost all of these analyses fall apart though, and is the main reason why you need to do proper theorycrafting for each spec separately.

Edited December 7, 2014 by Ailaria

[Cidgarrillo]

 

PS. I did do the numbers in the last expansion, but I posted them on a theorycrafting forum which sadly no longer exists. I think my conclusion back then favored main stat augments, but the analysis fell apart simply because almost no spec in those days wanted any crit whatsoever. This is really the point where almost all of these analyses fall apart though, and is the main reason why you need to do proper theorycrafting for each spec separately.

 

That makes me sad ,if it's the website that im thinking of ... It also have the formulae for crit, surge and all the stats.

 

I will eventually make the calculation for base abilities for every class if nobody does it. So it will solve all our problems i hope.

[Carisana]

Thank you for your answers. I'm afraid the Maths hurt my head, so while I'm slightly more informed I'm also slightly more confused since this was dps related and I'm trying to find out about healing specifically for a corruption sorc, so I'll create a new post since I jumped in on this one. I normally run with no extra crit on my gear and ~73% surge, ~8% alacrity, and resolve augs. Now I'm just trying to figure out if I should go to overkill augs instead.

[PlagaNerezza]

Interesting and makes sense, my Vanguard DPS does indeed have +9% Aim from a talent, so reflex on him, which is what I have already so cool.

 

Funny I also have a Shadow, so all Overkill on him based on what you're saying.

 

Would be interested to see what the math is for Power vs. Mainstat and how it affects DPS over a long fight or parse like 5m.

 

Parsing is not pvp. If you have autocritting skills take the higher damage. That is my rule of thumb. If you don't get a lot of auto crit lose the slight burst for a little more crit. In pvp situations a little bit of luck from extra crit might win you a battle. How many sustained dps battles you find yourself in? For instance a deception assassin with 3 recklessness charges is going to crit. 1% more crit isn't helping me. More burst is better. Its a class decision. I run power for deception and hatred as an assassin. A PT is probably all aim.

[Cidgarrillo]

Parsing is not pvp. If you have autocritting skills take the higher damage. That is my rule of thumb. If you don't get a lot of auto crit lose the slight burst for a little more crit. In pvp situations a little bit of luck from extra crit might win you a battle. How many sustained dps battles you find yourself in? For instance a deception assassin with 3 recklessness charges is going to crit. 1% more crit isn't helping me. More burst is better. Its a class decision. I run power for deception and hatred as an assassin. A PT is probably all aim.

 

 

Yoy are answering a post made the 29/01 of 2014