Sub Fees Advice

[AK_Snowbat]

First to explian myself, I spent 3 years as an Air Force Recruiter and went through several sales schools during that time. With that knowledge i'd like to offer the following advice to help increase the monthly sub rate for SWTOR.

 

As we know there are curently 3 options for Subs:

 

Active Sub: $15 a month (or other package deals)

Perfered Package: Free after purchse of points or a previous inactive sub

Free to Play (F2P)

 

It has been my experience through my training that the human mind, more especially the American mind, through our schooling and marketplace influence, operates in 1's, 2's, and 5's. This is why most stores, at the register have items for sale that are generally $1, $2, $5, or $10. Generally if anything else over $10 aren't meant to have a high sales rate but are simply a space filler to make other items seem cheaper.

 

We have been trained to think of anything over 10 to be a large number while 10 and below are considered to be nothing and 9.99 to be the most attractive sales number.

 

It is my belief, through the training i've been given, if you lower your sub fees from $14.99 a month to $9.99 a month you'll see a sharp increase in the number of people willing to sub. This will apply to players wil several accounts to parents who won't pay $15 for thier kids to play but are programmed to accept $9.99 as a number that will have little to no impact on their wallets.

 

This common practice is used in many sales enviorments in America today and is commonly accepted for impluse buys. With a once a month impact, a person looking at a credit card statement will have a higher likelyhood, especially in todays market recession, to glance over a $9.99 charge once a month then they will a $14.99 a month charge. This will also lower the ammount of people who are cancelling subs to save money.

 

Additional evidence can be taken from the cable tv and cell phone markets. Generally people who are looking to save some money on their bills wont bother adjusting their plan to save $10 a month or less but they will if it will save them $11 or more. This again is programing we've recieved from a combination of our school system and our market place.

 

I believe, if enacted properly SWToR will see a sharp rise in the number of subs each month that will far outweigh the $5 lost per currently active sub and will increase both profits and number of players.

 

Looking back at the mindset of human consideration for ammounts, large vs small; a sub fee that is actively lower than the market standard will attract more F2P players as well simply out of the "feel good" emotion that they'll get upon hearing the lower than standard sub fee with the higher than standard game play.

 

If you would like to contact me futher please feel free to e-mail me at the address linked ot this account.

 

Please consider this for future planning.

 

V/R

 

:. Josh Jones

[Merouk]

You pay $14.99 now and get back $5 in cartel coins, so they're doing it now. The monthly cartel coin "reward" helps convince everyone to keep their subscription going even if they're not playing much. The coins are also not much, so you're enticed to buy more coins, thereby spending more than the subscription.

 

They could offer a $9.99 subscription with NO monthly coins, that would be the equivalent. But then I'm not sure if retention would be as high.

 

Sales are about going past what we're comfortable spending and slightly into "uncomfortable, but here are some perks that will help you justify it in your mind." They're doing exactly that.

[JPryde]

I do not challenge anything said in the OP, as I personally do know nothing about marketing and in general am happy, if I have as little contact with our marketing department in my company as possible...

 

... but I am pretty sure, that bioware got a marketing department and that it consists of people who are trained at least or better than the OP and who know what they are doing.

[Starglitter]

Mmm...

 

I actually would be happy to pay $20 a month, if I actually got everything in the game and had no need at all for the CC market. I could pick out and use any outfit, dye, vehicle, etc...

 

The current 500 CC a month, which I pay as part of my subscription is as I had said before a tease, for it can ot buy any of consequence and you must either save for months to buy an item or buy more CCs. In general, I do not use the store, so givin gme the 500 CC is not doing anything towards my retention, so its value is mute.

 

If Bioware wants more customers, I would advice at considering the concept of "value", for the $15 a month, I frankly do not think I get much value as a whole, after all there are more development wise matured games with better GUIs, services, bigger environments (maps/zones) and less buggy behavior. Bioware retains and gains customers based on person's attraction to anything star wars, not so much because the game itself is a quality offering that stands above the rest.

 

Sue

[AK_Snowbat]

You pay $14.99 now and get back $5 in cartel coins, so they're doing it now. The monthly cartel coin "reward" helps convince everyone to keep their subscription going even if they're not playing much. The coins are also not much, so you're enticed to buy more coins, thereby spending more than the subscription.

 

They could offer a $9.99 subscription with NO monthly coins, that would be the equivalent. But then I'm not sure if retention would be as high.

 

Sales are about going past what we're comfortable spending and slightly into "uncomfortable, but here are some perks that will help you justify it in your mind." They're doing exactly that.

 

you apparently missed the entire point of the post. It isn't about "let me give you $15 and you give me $5 back in coins" it's about the human mind and how it operates. There are plunty of people out there that are currently F2P that would, according to market trends, sub at $9.99 as opposed to $14.99 again, based on trends.

 

It's not about a hand off of value it's about the bottom line and to most people, especially in todays market, the bottom line is what comes out of their wallets not what they get back in game.

 

The Cartel Coin thing is nice but seriously, after a few months the packs seem to be a waste as the chances of getting the "good stuff" are so slim that the packs could come and go without you getting what you want. The armor is nice but compaired to how it was at Launch when orange bracers cost 100k and you got your items as you went through the planets; now the markets are flooded with them. You almost cant even go up a trade skill unless you're selling epics.

 

You can try to twist or justify it however you want but i'm telling you, based on common sales knowledge that subs would go up at $9.99 a month with or without Cartel Coins.

 

They would have to keep it at one rate, to add an additional fee but you dont get XX would shy people away given the current cost of a sub it would be best to lower the rates.

 

:. Josh

[Starglitter]

Mmm...

 

I must agree with Josh over his observation of the $9.99 phenomena, for myself I pay the $41.97 subscription rate, which comes to $13.99 a month in an effort to approach the under $10.00 month cost figure.

 

At $14 a month, the game pricing onto itself is not competitive, a LOTRO 3 month subscriptions yields a $9.99 a month price tag for instance, and this is also true ofr many other equivalent sized MMORPGs. To add insult over injury, not only SWTOR cost more per month than all the other MMORPGs, it is in general smaller and less versatile than the lower priced ones too. For instance WoW provides you with about 4 different zoned to level your alt to at least mid-point in the leveling scheme before they consolidate into a single track, LOTRO does this too, but the 4 area narrows to two tracks from the mid way to the 3/4ths way, and the final 4th all are funneled into the same area. SWTOR may have 4 starter areas, but by level 5 the funneling begins.

 

Pricing has a lot of impact in people signing up and subscribing, but also imapcts "loyalty" (staying), as I begin to burn-out over the game, and at its current price, the chances that I will leave to play a new and different game that is better priced becomes rather good, and if the game happens to be good, SWTOR will never see me again. But if SWTOR was below the $10 mark a month, no need to pay 3 months at a time, the company would give tiself a very distinctive competitive edge and would likely see me not leave and thus have the time to mature itself like the competition had and thus were able to develop alternate paths. WoW created a new development path with the introduction of an Elf starter zone as an expansion release, all players regardless if they had max alts, jumped on the Elven craze and created new alts and leveled them, but when the dust setteld down, the game increased its leveling path width. For their $10 a month subscription rate, they improved their game offering "value" for it allowed you now 4 distinct choices to reach level 30 as opposed to SWTOR's '1" for $15 a month.

 

Sue

[Huckdabuck]

SWTOR may have 4 starter areas, but by level 5 the funneling begins.

 

as I begin to burn-out over the game, and at its current price, the chances that I will leave to play a new and different game that is better priced becomes rather good, and if the game happens to be good, SWTOR will never see me again. But if SWTOR was below the $10 mark a month, no need to pay 3 months at a time, the company would give tiself a very distinctive competitive edge and would likely see me not leave and thus have the time to mature itself like the competition had and thus were able to develop alternate paths..

 

Sue

 

So they in essence get you to play with the other classes in a quicker fashion.

 

I love the long explanation about how this games price is the deciding factor for someone playing the game versus the actual game play....I call BS. If you're burning out on the game then you're going to go find a new shiney to play. That's just human nature and to call it anything else is a gross injustice and a flat out farce. This game is essentially free if you don't want to pay for it sooooooo you don't ever have to pay a dime and thus have no real reason to complain or deride the subscription system. So all you're really saying is I want everything I have now and I want it cheaper or even free. If you want a cheaper game then there are tons of older games and F2P titles out there for you. EPIC FAIL when the logic train gets derailed.

[GamerIncognito]

The OP is right about the 9.99 thing. I have read studies myself in the economics courses I have had to take through out my college career. Its a trained response we have been put through as long as we have been able to read. Seriously, which looks bigger to you?

 

$9.99

$10.00

 

I have actually HEARD people in stores saying no to a product priced at 10 bucks, but almost step over other people to get it at $9.99.

 

 

The only thing I wanted to add though, is that WoW (at least when i was playing it) was $14.99 a month; I saw the charge every month on my phone bill.

[Huckdabuck]

There are plunty of people out there that are currently F2P that would, according to market trends, sub at $9.99 as opposed to $14.99 again, based on trends.

 

You can try to twist or justify it however you want but i'm telling you, based on common sales knowledge that subs would go up at $9.99 a month with or without Cartel Coins.

 

They would have to keep it at one rate, to add an additional fee but you dont get XX would shy people away given the current cost of a sub it would be best to lower the rates.

 

Well currently they can get it for 12.99 per month if they sub for 6 months (discounted for longer terms much like any other service provide will do for their customers). And honestly $2 does not create a make or break point for most people since that's the cost of a 20oz bottle of coke. And let's be honest MOST people will say that they'd do something on a questionare that we all no that they have no intention of doing (ie subscribing to services). Just for S.G.&G.'s I'd love to look over that marketing data.....got a link?

 

Pricing really doesn't matter for most people.....if someone likes something enough they will pay whatever said price is in order to fully enjoy what they want to enjoy. If they don't enjoy something then reducing the cost by $2 isn't going to make them say "I think I'll subscribe because it's only 9.99!" in fact most times people will just write the game off and go on to another one.

 

Now don't get me wrong I'd love if this game was cheaper but I'm pretty sure that the marketing/sales/advertising guys at EA/BW have figured out what their pricing points need to be in order to maintain/improve their revenues based on their long track records of being a profit driven business for longer than most of the player base has been on this earth.

[Huckdabuck]

The OP is right about the 9.99 thing. I have read studies myself in the economics courses I have had to take through out my college career. Its a trained response we have been put through as long as we have been able to read. Seriously, which looks bigger to you?

 

$9.99

$10.00

 

I have actually HEARD people in stores saying no to a product priced at 10 bucks, but almost step over other people to get it at $9.99.

 

 

The only thing I wanted to add though, is that WoW (at least when i was playing it) was $14.99 a month; I saw the charge every month on my phone bill.

 

You're talking about Psychological Pricing that most people hear about in an into to Economics course.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_pricing

[AK_Snowbat]

I"m not trying to derail anything nor am i trying to get something for free. To prove the point I went to Coor and asked the question "to all F2P players out there, would you be willing to sub if the monthly fee was reduced to $9.99 a month" and the answers provided were all yes. There were 111 people currently on the planet and i can assume that roughly 80% weren't reading chat at that moment and that's conservitive. That would drop it down to 21 people reading. 11 responded with yes which is more that 50% of those i assumed was reading and quite honestly high than i assumed were F2P.

I then asked of the subscribers if they would consider opening a second account, subbing a current 2nd account or if they were thinking of leaving consider staying if the sub fee was dropped to said ammount and 6 people answered yes.

That's 17 of the 21 people i assumed were actually paying attention.

If you consider that EA would lose $5 per currently subbed account and consider 6 to the ammount you're looking at a lose of $30 however, if you add the $10 a month for the 11 accounts that responded they would sub you'd gain $110 a month for a net gain of $70. The math doesn't lie.

Not a single person who was involved in the converstaion had a single thing negative to say about the prospect.

Additionally i asked if they would be more inclined to spread the word about SWToR if the sub fee was reduced and all who answered again said yes. Which would lead to the assumption of more people playing.

 

Another thing to consider is the browser looking for new games to play. I myself have been there several times since I started playing MMORPG's back in 2003. That point where you're burned out and go to MMORPG.com and browse what's out there. I personnally look at rating, price to buy and price per month. Games that were at $9.99 a month were far more attractive due to that pre-programed condition I mentioned in my original post and therefore was more likely to try those games first. In the end the best game won.

 

Personnally, as someone who's gamed since Mario came out i tend ot stear away from F2P games in general because i always assume they are in a death spiral and/or are cheaply made Indy games. However seeing an optional sub fee is a newer idea and again, having a cheaper fee wins. That's the strength of the free market.

 

I care about SWToR, it's a great game for what it is. It has a lot of strengths and a lot of weeknesses but it's one of the top MMO's on the market right now IMHO for what i'm looking for. I'd change a few things like removing Expertise at lvl 55 to make end-game pvp as much fun as pre-end game pvp but that's me. Either way, i'd like to see this game running for a lot of years and not end up like SWG which was switched off as a faint shadow of what it was on launch with no new good content to be seen.

[AK_Snowbat]

that's it then?

[Huckdabuck]

I"m not trying to derail anything nor am i trying to get something for free. To prove the point I went to Coor and asked the question "to all F2P players out there, would you be willing to sub if the monthly fee was reduced to $9.99 a month" and the answers provided were all yes. There were 111 people currently on the planet and i can assume that roughly 80% weren't reading chat at that moment and that's conservitive. That would drop it down to 21 people reading. 11 responded with yes which is more that 50% of those i assumed was reading and quite honestly high than i assumed were F2P.

I then asked of the subscribers if they would consider opening a second account, subbing a current 2nd account or if they were thinking of leaving consider staying if the sub fee was dropped to said ammount and 6 people answered yes.

That's 17 of the 21 people i assumed were actually paying attention.

If you consider that EA would lose $5 per currently subbed account and consider 6 to the ammount you're looking at a lose of $30 however, if you add the $10 a month for the 11 accounts that responded they would sub you'd gain $110 a month for a net gain of $70. The math doesn't lie.

Not a single person who was involved in the converstaion had a single thing negative to say about the prospect.

Additionally i asked if they would be more inclined to spread the word about SWToR if the sub fee was reduced and all who answered again said yes. Which would lead to the assumption of more people playing.

 

Another thing to consider is the browser looking for new games to play. I myself have been there several times since I started playing MMORPG's back in 2003. That point where you're burned out and go to MMORPG.com and browse what's out there. I personnally look at rating, price to buy and price per month. Games that were at $9.99 a month were far more attractive due to that pre-programed condition I mentioned in my original post and therefore was more likely to try those games first. In the end the best game won.

 

Personnally, as someone who's gamed since Mario came out i tend ot stear away from F2P games in general because i always assume they are in a death spiral and/or are cheaply made Indy games. However seeing an optional sub fee is a newer idea and again, having a cheaper fee wins. That's the strength of the free market.

 

I care about SWToR, it's a great game for what it is. It has a lot of strengths and a lot of weeknesses but it's one of the top MMO's on the market right now IMHO for what i'm looking for. I'd change a few things like removing Expertise at lvl 55 to make end-game pvp as much fun as pre-end game pvp but that's me. Either way, i'd like to see this game running for a lot of years and not end up like SWG which was switched off as a faint shadow of what it was on launch with no new good content to be seen.

 

Sorry I only get on when I'm at work and bored.

 

Here's an accountants quick and dirty run on some numbers as well (you used some assumptions/polling of a general chat in yours so I'm going to use some assumptions minus polling of general chat in mine).

 

EA/BW has been quoted as saying 500K subscribers is what they need in order to make a profit at the current rates, so I'll take that number and multiply it by the lowest cost of subscribing (6 months at $12.99) which is only a $2.99 reduction in price instead of your $5.

500,000 * $12.99 = $6,495,000 per month as a conservative revenue estimate (obviously doesn't count the higher month sub rates since some subs don't want to go longer than month to month).

 

Now assume they lower the price to $9.99 for subscribers

500,000 * $9.99 = $4,995,000 per month as an adjusted conservative revenue estimate

 

I'm going to now assume that there are an equal number of free to play who do so on a regular enough basis to consider becoming subscribers (and based on the 10% that replied in your post above I'd also assume only 10% will sub since they can play as long as they want as a F2P with little disruption but I'm going to give you 30% in the calculation below in order to illustrate my point).

150,000 * $9.99 = $1,498,500 per month as an adjusted conservative revenue estimate

 

Now add up the adjusted conservative revenue estimates

$4,995,000 + $1,498,500 = $6,493,500 which is $1,500 less in revenue per month and that's with 650,000 subscribers (which would be a fantastic number for this game if you ask me). So to break even based on current estimated conservative numbers they would need 650,150 subscribers in order to reach their current monthly revenue. As you stated above the math doesn't lie! Is it doable......sure.....is it likely....probably not especially when looking at how fickle and varying people are in general when it comes to gaming and new shineys.

 

As far as subbing for a 2nd account.....with the ability to have up to 22 characters per server and 8 servers in the U.S. (176 characters being available to you) why would anyone want/need to subscribe to a second account? That just doesn't make any sense but I guess we should call those people serious altoholics (disclaimer - I have roughly 35 alts across 4 servers)

 

As far as someone browsing trying to find a new MMO, that's why many games have a F2P option for the first few levels so you can test drive the game to see if it's to your liking or not. If someone truly enjoys a game then they will be willing to pay for it....if they don't they won't. Me personally I just do a web search and then look at screen shots/reviews/yada yada before I decide to try one out. There are rare instances where I outright buy a title (see FF and GW2) without even testing the waters.

 

I was a veteran long before Mario made his first appearance on the scene (see Atari and 1982) and have owned most gaming platforms/consoles through the years. Personally I only steer clear of titles that don't look appealing to me and I honestly could not care less if it's an indie game or not.

 

Now the strength of a free market is based on supply and demand and cheaper doesn't automatically win. As such, I'm sure EA/BW is quiet confident that their pricing options (subscription/F2P) are set accordingly since they obviously have a demand for their product in one form or the other at their stated prices.

 

I too love the game and wish that it has a long and healthy life. To ensure that it does....I make my monthly contribution to the coffers at EA/BW of $12.99 and about once a month I purchase CC's (bought way to much when these new packs came out last time). Actually now that I think about it.....I might pay the light bill in Austin! Now my numbers/assumptions may be somewhat fuzzy but hey so were yours.

 

TLDR : The price is at a fair point and reducing it won't create some new wealth for EA/BW by having F2P become subscribers, people will run to new shineys, supply and demand works but this isn't Wal-Mart, I give EA/BW to much of my money, long live SWTOR.

[Huckdabuck]

that's it then?

 

See above and that's all the effort I had left for this OP.

[AK_Snowbat]

See above and that's all the effort I had left for this OP.

 

then you get an "A" for effort however you have nothing to base it off of but you're own assessments.

so...it's alot of nothing for a lot of nothing.

[JPryde]

then you get an "A" for effort however you have nothing to base it off of but you're own assessments.

so...it's alot of nothing for a lot of nothing.

Why are your assumptions better than his assumptions?

 

And why do you believe, that you are better in marketing than the marketing guys at Bioware/EA. I wouldn think that they are amatheurs.

[Huckdabuck]

then you get an "A" for effort however you have nothing to base it off of but you're own assessments.

so...it's alot of nothing for a lot of nothing.

 

Ok I'll bite.....please tell me how your assumptions/assessments are greater than my assumptions/assessments? Other than my assumptions don't meet your ideal outlook that lowering the price would give them a boost in revenue based on F2P subscribing and Subs resubbing. You're whole OP is a lot of nothing for a lot of nothing and about a lot of nothing based on the fact that you polled general chat in the game and didn't get any true metrics for analysis. I showed in estimated numbers (conservatively based on BW/EA subscription/F2P figures) what subscription numbers would be to equal what they would need in order to break even with their current revenues. I'd say that's an A for effort and an A in execution. I'm sorry but it's all in the math and in plain sight based on the assumptions/estimates which may or may not be accurate. The main point of my response was to show you in sheer volume what would need to occur in order to equal what they are making now and why that may/may not be unattainable. As previously stated, I'm all for a cheaper price but that's just not going to happen for a while since they still have a good in strong enough demand at their set pricing points.

 

In all honesty, when I first read the OP I thought to myself "Self, now this guy is hoping/wishing that EA/BW will give him a call/shoot him an email to come to work for them so he can lead them to the promise land with his extensive sales experience and vast knowledge of the SWTOR gaming community needs!" As I (and another in the thread) have pointed out numerous times....the professional marketing/advertising/sales gurus at EA/BW have this under wraps and probably don't need/want your advice on how to run their pricing campaigns.

[AK_Snowbat]

Ok I'll bite.....please tell me how your assumptions/assessments are greater than my assumptions/assessments? Other than my assumptions don't meet your ideal outlook that lowering the price would give them a boost in revenue based on F2P subscribing and Subs resubbing. You're whole OP is a lot of nothing for a lot of nothing and about a lot of nothing based on the fact that you polled general chat in the game and didn't get any true metrics for analysis. I showed in estimated numbers (conservatively based on BW/EA subscription/F2P figures) what subscription numbers would be to equal what they would need in order to break even with their current revenues. I'd say that's an A for effort and an A in execution. I'm sorry but it's all in the math and in plain sight based on the assumptions/estimates which may or may not be accurate. The main point of my response was to show you in sheer volume what would need to occur in order to equal what they are making now and why that may/may not be unattainable. As previously stated, I'm all for a cheaper price but that's just not going to happen for a while since they still have a good in strong enough demand at their set pricing points.

 

In all honesty, when I first read the OP I thought to myself "Self, now this guy is hoping/wishing that EA/BW will give him a call/shoot him an email to come to work for them so he can lead them to the promise land with his extensive sales experience and vast knowledge of the SWTOR gaming community needs!" As I (and another in the thread) have pointed out numerous times....the professional marketing/advertising/sales gurus at EA/BW have this under wraps and probably don't need/want your advice on how to run their pricing campaigns.

 

u mad bro?

what's your point? both of our numbers are used to make our point, yours isn't the same as mine. Am i required to stand up and /clap at your counting skills? i'm in sales, not bean counting so i look at trends and talk to people..you count beans... i'm not going to bow to your bean-ability, not going to happen. I stand by my assessment.

[JediRelentless]

This sounds like awful advice. There's no guarantee subscriber numbers would increase significantly enough to take that kind of risk.

[Oyranos]

It has been my experience through my training that the human mind, more especially the American mind,

 

Human mind - american mind? As you should know, there are 5 generations on this planet, different blood types, dna types. Different species.. Andromeda, Kronians, dragonian, Seirios and Pleiades. All that, separate in 69 tribes, that most of them have being extinct from the face of the earth, but the dna still remains in many humans. Thats why there are so many " birth anomalies into babies... look like animals, or double heads, etc) once these, were a species. It was not a genetics anomaly.

 

the 2nd and 3rd are very greedy and corrupted species, they love cheating, lieing, wealth, power, so they get attracted by games that offer that.. Other species love more complex things, than that. I could name them, but I dont want to cause any frustration. haha

 

As far as I know, from official reports, blood type O is the most common for USA citizens (latelly with all these imigrants, B and A is going to take over)? Greediness is not working with that species (o). They love more intensive scripts, games, more legit... Maybe thats why they feed them with lots of war games, all about americans. Make them feel patriots - warriors

 

I could name the species differently, but I dont want any to tell me that this is racist.. lol Those who knows stuff, they which is what.

Edited February 6, 2014 by Oyranos

[Froippi]

idk as slow as some of the content comes sometimes paying even 12.99 sometimes feels to much i would sub here their if they do something like what they did with makeb and give expansions for free with the subcription just option i know other people will feel different

 

heck i pay a ton of money for permanent credits unlock for my whole account but doubt that ever will happen unlike some of the other mmos i've played

Edited February 6, 2014 by Froippi

[AK_Snowbat]

Human mind - american mind? As you should know, there are 5 generations on this planet, different blood types, dna types. Different species.. Andromeda, Kronians, dragonian, Seirios and Pleiades. All that, separate in 69 tribes, that most of them have being extinct from the face of the earth, but the dna still remains in many humans. Thats why there are so many " birth anomalies into babies... look like animals, or double heads, etc) once these, were a species. It was not a genetics anomaly.

 

the 2nd and 3rd are very greedy and corrupted species, they love cheating, lieing, wealth, power, so they get attracted by games that offer that.. Other species love more complex things, than that. I could name them, but I dont want to cause any frustration. haha

 

As far as I know, from official reports, blood type O is the most common for USA citizens (latelly with all these imigrants, B and A is going to take over)? Greediness is not working with that species (o). They love more intensive scripts, games, more legit... Maybe thats why they feed them with lots of war games, all about americans. Make them feel patriots - warriors

 

I could name the species differently, but I dont want any to tell me that this is racist.. lol Those who knows stuff, they which is what.

 

Sales courses don't teach genetics nor do they really care.. the American mind is the mind of the American..despite genetic history. As must of this post really has nothing to do with what people will are will not pay for subs fees i have to ask... *** are you talking about?