Sadishist Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 (edited) Just like ground WZ, where's the votekick function? Give their spot to someone who wants to play rather than just farm reqs at the expense of the team by being AFK. Edited January 17, 2014 by Sadishist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPryde Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 Dunno about you, but I usually do not have time to start a votekick and I surely do not want my interface switch to "vote now"-mode, when I am in the middle of a dogfight. I would most likely miss 90% of all votes. There are a few things that should never give any kind of reward though (if you check all of the following list): - never left the protection of the capital ship starting area - never fired their weapons - got 0 medals - got a score of 0 on objectives - got a total of 0 for kills plus assists plus deaths Force people to actually do something to get a reward. As long as you reward people for doing nothing, it will be abused by trolls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danylia Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 (edited) There are a few things that should never give any kind of reward though (if you check all of the following list): - never left the protection of the capital ship starting area - never fired their weapons - got 0 medals - got a score of 0 on objectives - got a total of 0 for kills plus assists plus deaths - never left the protection of the capital ship starting area - Agreed - never fired their weapons - Agreed - got 0 medals - Disagreed, unless you want to make the experience for newbies being farmed by experienced players in fully upgraded ships even more frustrating - got a score of 0 on objectives - Disagreed from the same reason as above, plus it's not that uncommon to see a Gunship with very high kills/assists/damage numbers but zero Objectives (I admit, the idea of denying them any reward is tempting ... but unfair, of course) - got a total of 0 for kills plus assists plus deaths - This is already covered in "never fired their weapons", but for the sake of Gunships camping the spawn turrets, agreed EDIT: Oh, if you meant all of them together, then it's superfluous - the first OR the second OR the last alone would be sufficient. Edited January 17, 2014 by Danylia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renegadeimp Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 - got 0 medals - Disagreed, unless you want to make the experience for newbies being farmed by experienced players in fully upgraded ships even more frustrating - got a score of 0 on objectives - Disagreed from the same reason as above, plus it's not that uncommon to see a Gunship with very high kills/assists/damage numbers but zero Objectives (I admit, the idea of denying them any reward is tempting ... but unfair, of course) - got a total of 0 for kills plus assists plus deaths - This is already covered in "never fired their weapons", but for the sake of Gunships camping the spawn turrets, agreed EDIT: Oh, if you meant all of them together, then it's superfluous - the first OR the second OR the last alone would be sufficient. 0 medals. It is pretty much impossible to get 0 medals in a match unless you are genuinely AFK. You actually have to go out of your way and avoid everything to achieve it. 0 on objectives. Again, almost impossible. All you have to do is sit by a capped sat for maybe 5-10 seconds to get a few objective points. I kind of agree on the assists plus deaths. But it should be 0 on ALL of them. it is very easy to get an assist. Just cause 1 damage while the enemy is under attack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armonddd Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 0 medals. It is pretty much impossible to get 0 medals in a match unless you are genuinely AFK. You actually have to go out of your way and avoid everything to achieve it. Or you can just get farmed. I've had matches where the other team doesn't leave single digits for score. None of them had any kills, assists, or medals. What do? 0 on objectives. Again, almost impossible. All you have to do is sit by a capped sat for maybe 5-10 seconds to get a few objective points. Hi, I'm a gunship. I'm literally not designed to be on the point. My contributions are often more valuable than those of the scout that's 14 km closer to the point than I am. I am never awarded with objectives points unless my pilot is attempting to farm requisition. Hi, I'm now a player on a team getting farmed. I can't cap a point, no matter what I do, and the game won't award me with any objectives points unless my team at some point owns the node I'm fighting around. I can spend four minutes circling the node - enough to earn three medals, normally - with no reward because the enemy team won't let me cap it. This would work if objectives and requisition were awarded more fairly. Until then, it's a problem. I kind of agree on the assists plus deaths. But it should be 0 on ALL of them. it is very easy to get an assist. Just cause 1 damage while the enemy is under attack. My general rule of thumb is, if they never fired a shot and gained no objectives points, they were afk. That's much easier to check, and every ship in the game is designed so they need to fire at something in order to progress the match. The sole exception is boosting to a node at the start of a match that the enemy team ignores for the entire match - but that would gain you objectives points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danylia Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 0 medals. It is pretty much impossible to get 0 medals in a match unless you are genuinely AFK. You actually have to go out of your way and avoid everything to achieve it. 0 on objectives. Again, almost impossible. All you have to do is sit by a capped sat for maybe 5-10 seconds to get a few objective points. I kind of agree on the assists plus deaths. But it should be 0 on ALL of them. it is very easy to get an assist. Just cause 1 damage while the enemy is under attack. Medals. Mostly newbies against newbies mixed with veterans. Objectives. Fourth from top, 5 kills, 10 assists, 30+k damage. Gunship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renegadeimp Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 Or you can just get farmed. I've had matches where the other team doesn't leave single digits for score. None of them had any kills, assists, or medals. What do? Hi, I'm a gunship. I'm literally not designed to be on the point. My contributions are often more valuable than those of the scout that's 14 km closer to the point than I am. I am never awarded with objectives points unless my pilot is attempting to farm requisition. Hi, I'm now a player on a team getting farmed. I can't cap a point, no matter what I do, and the game won't award me with any objectives points unless my team at some point owns the node I'm fighting around. I can spend four minutes circling the node - enough to earn three medals, normally - with no reward because the enemy team won't let me cap it. This would work if objectives and requisition were awarded more fairly. Until then, it's a problem. My general rule of thumb is, if they never fired a shot and gained no objectives points, they were afk. That's much easier to check, and every ship in the game is designed so they need to fire at something in order to progress the match. The sole exception is boosting to a node at the start of a match that the enemy team ignores for the entire match - but that would gain you objectives points. About the whole gunship thing. You wont be getting objectives or on point, but youll be getting medals from damage, kills etc. Unless you are AFK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armonddd Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 About the whole gunship thing. You wont be getting objectives or on point, but youll be getting medals from damage, kills etc. Unless you are AFK. Or if you're bad. Again, I think the first step to punishing non-players is to fix the rewards (both objectives and requisition) in order to better track who's not playing and who's simply not playing well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPryde Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 Please note, that my list was to be connected by AND not by OR. Only if you check ALL of my points, your reward would be null. That can only happen, if you are afk or if the match ends due to number imbalance (counting as loss for both sides with 0 req reward, but for some reason I always get 1400 credits for those matches that did not even start). I really hope, that Bioware will implement some kind of deserter debuff, which uses a pattern recognition to see, if a player for example is only flying straight ahead or fixed in circles without playing the game. I would hope that this debuff would seriously stop the afk-wookiee from ruining the GSF for the rest of us. Personally I am disgusted that absolutely everything that can be exploited will be exploited, even if it does mean that the exploiter will ruin the gaming experience of dozens of fellow players. It tells a lot about the social competence of the people who are doing such exploiting. They are in my opinion no better than credit seller, buyer, hacker or wookiee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renegadeimp Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 Or if you're bad. Again, I think the first step to punishing non-players is to fix the rewards (both objectives and requisition) in order to better track who's not playing and who's simply not playing well. I'll agree with that. It seems the devs did their usual trick of saying " oh, people wont do that". Instead of thinking " they'll definitley do that. maybe we should put some sort of system in that stops them." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icebergy Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 Have you guys seriously had a problem with this? I have not noticed anyone doing it on Jedi Covenant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XavinNydek Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 0 medals. It is pretty much impossible to get 0 medals in a match unless you are genuinely AFK. You actually have to go out of your way and avoid everything to achieve it. I have seen it legitimately happen (and had it happen to me) to really new players. They aren't likely to kill anything or get multiple assists, and if they don't know how to do the objectives, then 0 medals. Or if you're bad. Again, I think the first step to punishing non-players is to fix the rewards (both objectives and requisition) in order to better track who's not playing and who's simply not playing well. Medals don't correlate to rewards, they just show them because people like them. Rewards are fine, even for noobs, if you ignore the pointless dogfighting and focus on the objectives. As long as we just have the domination maps, you are doing it wrong if you are aren't killing turrets, capping nodes, and defending. Have you guys seriously had a problem with this? I have not noticed anyone doing it on Jedi Covenant. Yeah. With all the new people some of it is screwing around with settings, etc, but even before the preferred there were a few known people who queued constantly, yet never left the start point. It needs to be automatically punished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armonddd Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 Medals don't correlate to rewards, they just show them because people like them. Rewards are fine, even for noobs, if you ignore the pointless dogfighting and focus on the objectives. As long as we just have the domination maps, you are doing it wrong if you are aren't killing turrets, capping nodes, and defending. Not sure where you got from, since no one mentioned them. And no, rewards are currently not fine. The system breaks very easily. A gunship snipes a point, weakening three targets with ion before killing two of them. His ally, a scout, gets the final kill, stays on the point, and flips the node for his team while the gunship watches for incoming threats. The gunship has earned zero requisition, while the scout has earned something like 225.A strike fighter makes his way to C. Because his engines are a joke, he doesn't make it in time to flip the point. He spends the rest of the match taking up the necessary but boring job of waiting on the node and calling out incoming threats. No enemies approach the node all game, since they're holding A and trading B - they (mistakenly) feel they can't afford to stray too far from their forces at A. The strike fighter does an invaluable duty, but earns zero requisition. Command issues him some pretty medals and achievements and bullies him into keeping his mouth shut.A Flashfire ace takes to the field. He's highly trained and pulled a number of strings for more aftermarket upgrades than some pilots knew existed. He shoots down two dozen foes in battle without suffering more than minor damage to his own ship, buying his squadron plenty of time to secure the objectives. Unfortunately, the bureaucrat in charge of overseeing the affairs is his ex, who denies him significant awards because his orders were to secure the satellites, not chase after Imperials. On the upside, she can't stop the admiral from pinning a fancy medal in his jacket, nor his crew from decorating the ship with the fighters he's destroyed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XavinNydek Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 I don't see a problem with the rewards for any of those. I do fine with requisition on my gunship even when I don't defend nodes. Rewarding gunships even more would just lead to being overrun with them. I'm also glad that the rewards pushing people for focusing on dogfighting instead of objectives, because the whole point of a dominion map is the objectives. If you are using a strike fighter, I have to ask why, you are better off in a scout or gunship at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armonddd Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 I don't see a problem with the rewards for any of those. I do fine with requisition on my gunship even when I don't defend nodes. Rewarding gunships even more would just lead to being overrun with them. I'm also glad that the rewards pushing people for focusing on dogfighting instead of objectives, because the whole point of a dominion map is the objectives. If you are using a strike fighter, I have to ask why, you are better off in a scout or gunship at this point. Are we playing the same game? My gunship gets half the requisition my scout gets, and matches are already overrun with gunships (because they're so ridiculously overpowered). Dogfighting is important because it keeps people off the node and back at their spawn. I don't see why you think it's ok that two out of three classes don't get significant rewards, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sadishist Posted January 17, 2014 Author Share Posted January 17, 2014 (edited) - never left the protection of the capital ship starting area - Agreed - never fired their weapons - Agreed - got 0 medals - Disagreed, unless you want to make the experience for newbies being farmed by experienced players in fully upgraded ships even more frustrating - got a score of 0 on objectives - Disagreed from the same reason as above, plus it's not that uncommon to see a Gunship with very high kills/assists/damage numbers but zero Objectives (I admit, the idea of denying them any reward is tempting ... but unfair, of course) - got a total of 0 for kills plus assists plus deaths - This is already covered in "never fired their weapons", but for the sake of Gunships camping the spawn turrets, agreed EDIT: Oh, if you meant all of them together, then it's superfluous - the first OR the second OR the last alone would be sufficient. On the server Bastion, there's an AFK player who uses a bot that makes him travel to the same node and fire a few random shots into empty space. He doesn't fight at all. In the end, all his stats are 0 except for his objective score. Edited January 17, 2014 by Sadishist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zharik Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 [*]A gunship snipes a point, weakening three targets with ion before killing two of them. His ally, a scout, gets the final kill, stays on the point, and flips the node for his team while the gunship watches for incoming threats. The gunship has earned zero requisition, while the scout has earned something like 225. [*]A strike fighter makes his way to C. Because his engines are a joke, he doesn't make it in time to flip the point. He spends the rest of the match taking up the necessary but boring job of waiting on the node and calling out incoming threats. No enemies approach the node all game, since they're holding A and trading B - they (mistakenly) feel they can't afford to stray too far from their forces at A. The strike fighter does an invaluable duty, but earns zero requisition. Command issues him some pretty medals and achievements and bullies him into keeping his mouth shut. [*]A Flashfire ace takes to the field. He's highly trained and pulled a number of strings for more aftermarket upgrades than some pilots knew existed. He shoots down two dozen foes in battle without suffering more than minor damage to his own ship, buying his squadron plenty of time to secure the objectives. Unfortunately, the bureaucrat in charge of overseeing the affairs is his ex, who denies him significant awards because his orders were to secure the satellites, not chase after Imperials. On the upside, she can't stop the admiral from pinning a fancy medal in his jacket, nor his crew from decorating the ship with the fighters he's destroyed. In all 3 of your examples, your "zero" requisition" ships earned a lot more than zero. Post a screenshot of the "zero" requisition defense strikefighter score screen with your mouse over the objectives portion to prove all defense points and I'll eat my words, gladly. (but you can't) Kills and assists are the same req given. Offensive things seem to give more than defensive (like killing turrets and capturing satellites) but if you do only one type of thing the whole match you'll get less than if you do a few of each. Medals sort of indicates this. Get 15 medals, trust me you are getting more than 1k reqs. Get 4 defense medals only, yeah you get less than 1k, sorry. Oh yeah, your gunship can cover the capture better from the satellite than from 13k away... Granted a lot of things are situationally dependent. Now to address the things that I think you meant to address (even though you massively exaggerated it) - the disparity of reward for one's actions. Yeah it would be nice to know exactly what gives the most reward so that could be balanced fairly among various play styles, but please don't advocate for defense to = offense. I do not want to see most of my team "defending our sole satellite" while the other half is trying to get another so we can actually win. Unless defense = offense in case of a win only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XXDARTHDOWNERXX Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 I just wanted to jump in here and give my vote to have something done. I have seen this used and abused a lot and it really ruins that game for me. I don't think I will play again until something is fixed to punish the people that aren't even trying. I played with one of my toons that I had never used for GSF and expected to do ok but not great and we lost like 900 to 70 or something ridiculous and I got 2nd place on the team and everyone else except a player or 2 were at the very bottom and obviously not even playing or trying to help. Please fix this?!?!?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
socylad Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 (edited) What if you were able to vote a player AFK at the end of the match like you would MVP in a WZ. With 3 or more votes of AFK, a debuff would be applied to that player, locking them out of subsequent GS matches for a period of time. To prevent misuse of this feature, players that met the criteria some of you mentioned earlier would be exempt from AFK votes, or the standard to apply the debuff would be more exacting, say 5 or 6 votes. It wouldn't save the match, but you wouldn't end up constantly qued with a bot or AFK GS farmer. Edited January 18, 2014 by socylad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliJoe Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 I do have a screen shot of a match on Wednesday. I'm not going to post it since I can't upload it to the forum, nor do I want to open a new account somewhere to post 1 thing. We had two AFK. One of them is a repeat offender that decided to talk back with equal aggression to anyone who was complaining in the chat box (which that match was reported to in the chat box). The other person in the match did not respond. Both people were parked in the "bridge" area of the capital ship. The other side got all three satellites with ease. If this problem isn't resolved at or before the F2P people show up, this little project will be a waste of time instead of a fun alternative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verain Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 On the server Bastion, there's an AFK player who uses a bot that makes him travel to the same node and fire a few random shots into empty space. He doesn't fight at all. In the end, all his stats are 0 except for his objective score. That man is truly an ace! But yes, it's possible to trivially bot some of the values (objectives). If his bot was a bit smarter, he would have the shield that does damage when struck and randomly get some damage on the board that way. I can't wait for him to have a bomber- then he might accidentally be useful. The most disheartening thing was when he started botting on his new gunship. Reps and Emps have all reported him. What a slimebag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
socylad Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Yes,an Ace of a Man and I've never seen him actually do anything in a GS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sadishist Posted January 18, 2014 Author Share Posted January 18, 2014 (edited) Yep, I won't name any names here, but this is my most recent match 5 minutes ago. Team got facerolled, but there's the one anti-MVP. Every fricking time. https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1360x765q90/689/44bb.jpg Edited January 18, 2014 by Sadishist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armonddd Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 In all 3 of your examples, your "zero" requisition" ships earned a lot more than zero. Post a screenshot of the "zero" requisition defense strikefighter score screen with your mouse over the objectives portion to prove all defense points and I'll eat my words, gladly. (but you can't) The gunship does not earn requisition because he's not within 500(ish) meters of the satellite when he earns his kills and assists. Don't ask me why. The strike fighter does not earn requisition because objectives points do not give requisition. Don't ask me why. The Flashfire doesn't earn requisition because, again, he doesn't touch a node all game, and you only earn requisition when you're on a node. Don't ask me why. Now, if you want to argue that you do indeed gain requisition for kills and assists off the node, or for objectives points without kills or assists, I guess I don't currently have a(n easy) way of testing that. However, it's certainly not significant requisition - and it's definitely not enough to properly reward a player's contributions. I had a match last night where we shut out the opposition 1000-0 and I played the Flashfire ace. With 61 objectives points (which probably involved two satellite flips), I earned less than 700 requisition. Let me repeat that. In a perfect game, where literally every member of my premade performed flawlessly and none of the PUGs could get in a notable contribution around the locust swarm, I received less than 700 requisition for my 13 kills and 39k damage. You know who got the most requisition in that match? The gunship with six kills, six assists, and 28k damage, because he sat on the nodes (making himself a really obvious target) while firing those shots. We know from the devs that flipping a node gives a lot of requisition - probably on the order of 150+ - but you can see from the math that I simply didn't get much requisition for my services. I guess that ***** is my bureaucrat now. Kills and assists are the same req given. Offensive things seem to give more than defensive (like killing turrets and capturing satellites) but if you do only one type of thing the whole match you'll get less than if you do a few of each. Medals sort of indicates this. Get 15 medals, trust me you are getting more than 1k reqs. Get 4 defense medals only, yeah you get less than 1k, sorry. I never disputed this, outside the tangential argument that kills and assists give significantly more requisition when you're hugging the node. Oh yeah, your gunship can cover the capture better from the satellite than from 13k away... Granted a lot of things are situationally dependent. It's not just situationally dependent, it's integral to the class. This is an entire class - which also happens to be massively overpowered - that receives almost no requisition for doing their job right. An AFK character receives 300 requisition for a match. A scout doing his job right earns something closer to 900-1000 requisition. (Let's assume your team wins for all of these examples - that's 100ish requisition right there.) I've earned over 1800 requisition in a particularly intense match (except I had the daily double up, so it was really 2300 and change). A gunship that does his job right earns... 450 requisition? 500, maybe? If he cheeses requisition to the detriment of his team, he can earn something more like 800-1000 depending on the level of cheese. Why do I have to play sub-optimally in order to be rewarded in a competitive game? Now to address the things that I think you meant to address (even though you massively exaggerated it) - the disparity of reward for one's actions. Yeah it would be nice to know exactly what gives the most reward so that could be balanced fairly among various play styles, but please don't advocate for defense to = offense. I do not want to see most of my team "defending our sole satellite" while the other half is trying to get another so we can actually win. Unless defense = offense in case of a win only. 2.6 will give us a breakdown of requisition earned (it was on the PTS last build, and I didn't hear of any bugs). The reason why I advocate defense earning at least comparable rewards to offense is because it's a vital role. In an intense match, there will almost always be half of the enemy team assaulting one of your points. In most other matches, you need a sentry to call out when a node is being attacked and hold it until backup arrives. You're right that it's no benefit to have half a dozen players sitting on a node you already own when you're losing - I've lost matches that way - which is probably why objectives points on their own don't contribute to requisition. On the other hand, other decent PvP games have been rewarding these defensive players for something close to a year now (anyone remember in what patch WoW added the honorable defender buff?). The rewards are much less than what you get for winning the match, but they're still there. And that's the last thing that bugs me about this whole system: if winning is everything (and it's a PvP game, so winning is everything - there's no rewards for second place and no punishments for unconventional tactics), why is winning not rewarded more? If I'm running around making sure no enemies have a chance at getting on the node, why am I not rewarded more for my win? In my opinion, a participating member of the winning team should earn at least 600 requisition - a paltry amount compared to what I get on my scout when I'm playing well, but certainly much more than my gunship regularly gets when he contributes the same amount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Yep, I won't name any names here, but this is my most recent match 5 minutes ago. Team got facerolled, but there's the one anti-MVP. Every fricking time. https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1360x765q90/689/44bb.jpg Truly and Ace pilot if ever I see one.... By the way Sadishist its fun running into you in Space pvp your good and its always a nice dog fight wish there were more pilots on both sides that were good and less like the imps..... ACE . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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