Kaggath Tournament - Sol'yc Empire vs Droid Supremacy

[StarSquirrel]

Thanks Beni!

 

 

 

Alright, I think it's time to start talking about Droidekas.

 

The shielded Destroyer droids that sent Qui-gon Jinn and Obi-wan running scared.

 

Or the ones that surrounded Obi-wan and Anakin (and Padme) in the Geonosis Factories and what did the Jedi do?

 

Surrender.

 

The SE simply has no answer for them. If they know about the rolled grenade thing, and there's no reason why they would, they still would not even get close before they're gunned down. Especially if these droidekas are set up to guard key points in the factories and elsewhere. The presense of droidekas essentially negates the SE strategy of surgical strikes.

I think this was covered earlier, but it bears repeating. Firstly, Droidekas' shields can be overpowered through judicious use of firepower. The grenade roll trick is also probably known by Boba, but assuming for a crazy moment it isn't, it wouldn't be hard for them to discover it. Also, Sel was right, droid poppers were the most common grenade for clones, thermal detonators pack a far more powerful punch though and so it isn't crazy that a few would overload a droidekas' shields and kill it.

 

That said, rockets and missiles are common Mandalorian weapons anyway so I fail to see what is negated here.

 

I don't know, I'm still if-y about two Jedi and a New Republic general committing MASS GENOCIDE on 100 BILLION geonosians. Something about that just strikes me wrong.

 

But say they do (or they try to). Any orbital bombardment the SE attempts will be met with backlash. I mean, come on, the SE has Telos. You know, the planet that was bombed into oblivion and is now rebuilding? Somehow I don't think the people of Telos will be very happy with Base Delta Zero tactics.

 

Heck, look at real life. Dropping nukes on two cities was met with disapproval from all sides of the war, even if it did end the fighting. Imagine if that was done to a planet of 100 billion people. I'm just going to take a guess here and say that the SE citizens would not be happy. Unhappiness leads to defection and lack of support for the government.

Sure, except in that case the Americans weren't facing total annihilation by an insane party of genocidal machines bent on killing all life in the galaxy. With HK-01 on the DS's side it really does come down to that. This entire war is a case of "them or us" and Tenel Ka, Boba Fett, Jaina Solo, and Nek have ALL fought that war before (Vong war) and it made them a much harder bunch. You really think mandalorians are going to cringe at the annihilation of a colony of bugs in order to save themselves? Really?

 

Especially if a DS operative/droid were to release video/photo proof of the SE's actions onto the HoloNet.

And that would worry the SE how again? The DS is by the definition of its faction a genocidal force bend on killing all sentient life in the galaxy. Imagine if THAT got on the HoloNet...

Edited January 31, 2014 by StarSquirrel

[Beniboybling]

1. Nek is the master of just those tactics. It was standard procedure for Rebellion (and New Republic) fleets to scout out hyperlanes ahead of the main force for exactly this reason (several accounts in the X-wing series). Nek would also likely suspect ambushes anyway (as that is how the DS will inevitably begin their own campaign) so he'll be taking extra precautions (remember Laryn Kre'fey? Yeah Nek won't make those mistakes). It probably will take them an extra day or so to reach Geonosis, but their strength will be nearly full when they do. Also, for the DS to have a fleet that can overpower the main force of Nek, they'd have to send only a token force to harass the SE's reinforcements. Considering they've lost the biggest ship producer at Dac, if they tried to directly engage Nek they'd lose so much that the reinforcements would clean them up with ease.

 

2. The first use of nuclear missiles would be on Geonosis so G0-T0 would have no prior warning thus he couldn't factor it into the defence. If it was tried again (Kamino/Bothawui/Nar Shadda) he'd probably have those defences established. The Planetary shields protect the factory. But the droids have to be stored somewhere, a staging area so they can be transported offworld. That staging area (which Boba would know about from his time on the planet) would be the target. Once it is destroyed, along with the bulk of the DS's available droid forces on the planet, the SE's commandos would use the EMP blast of the nuke, that scrambled the DS's sensors, to land and assault the factories. They can split into three teams. One plants explosives throughout the factory. Two plants a nuke. The third goes for the shield generators. Between three highly skilled teams of jetpack equipped mandalorian elites, at least one should succeed. And if even one does, the factories are gone.

 

I'd also like to note that if the DS's droid control facility is on a ship over Geonosis, then the Mando fleet would annihilate it. If it is on the surface then the SE would try and track it and use a strike team to eliminate it making yet another target.

 

3. Boba will know enough to get to the factories and avoid the catacombs as much as possible. If HK-01 is on planet he becomes a shining beacon of a target. Also, Mandalorians would likely send the droids into the catacombs (and since HK-01's commands order them to kill living beings then the Geonosians just got a bunch of crazed droids to handle).

 

4. As I mentioned before. Anything in orbit is a sitting duck for the Mando Fleet. HK-01 would be dead before the first mando boot hit the ground.

 

As Sel has made mention before, the Mon Cal when "liberated" (especially once they've been given the whole story) will flock the SE's banner and oppose the genocidal droid forces. It would be incredibly difficult for G0-T0 to do much sabotage under those conditions. Also, Mon Cal is the closest planet in the DS to the SE... agreed they aren't extremely close, but close enough.

 

Boba is really good at this. Like REALLY good. Again the Cabure are elite commandos, they'll infiltrate and find the shield generator and missile defences. We all know how little love of kaminoans Mandalorians have and the fact they are bringing force-using (ish) droids into the battle will be plenty of reason for Nek, Jaina, Tenel Ka, and Boba to agree to nuke it. Also, with Canderous tanks and elite Mandalorian commandos (not the Neo-crusader pansies), I think they are about even with the Terror troopers.

 

eh, Nar Shadda would happen that way when all other DS forces have been neutralized. Also, these particular Mandalorians (the Cabure) have underworld contacts. Before the Vong war they were all Bounty Hunters. Why wouldn't they use that and the idea "to the victory goes the spoils" to get the majority of the criminals on the planet to work with them. Boba is an excellent front man for this, the underworld's more powerful elements would flock to work with him seeing that he'd represent the winning side. A promise here, a deal there, and presto! An entire planet of Bounty Hunters looking for G0-T0.

 

The HK-50 factory on Telos is a fortress. He can't just walk right in, reprogram them and walk (or float) out. The only known person to get in was the exile and she fought the hell out of the entire defensive net to get in (iirc). No, the best the DS can do is lay siege with droids and force the SE to expend resources to free up its droid production.

 

Agreed, I never said the SE would disrupt transportation lines and my scenario even accounted for severe harassment by DS forces. That said, once they attack they lack the power to actually defeat the SE and the choked hyperlanes closer to the core means Bilbringi and Esseles are extremely difficult for them to reach.

 

How, pray tell, does the DS expect to infiltrate a company of the most elite mandalorian commandos the galaxy has ever produced? Boba knows most of his people, it isn't exactly like they'll just pick up stragglers as they move along, and they really don't trust outsiders AT ALL. Heck they their word for outsider also means traitor. Unlike most factions, this one was designed specifically to avoid what you are referring to here. If anyone does infiltrate their ranks, it will be few and they'll lack enough access to do much at all.

 

G0-T0 is also not directing this war effort directly imo. I think he'll, like his last match, leave the war as a distraction and go for Tenel Ka. She is, btw, very ready for him. As a Queen of assassins, she knows a few things about surviving these attempts. In fact I'm pretty sure every attempt on her life has resulted in the death of the assassin.

1. Good points, but considering that G0-T0 will likely smuggle several informants amongst your ranks in one way or another, its likely you'll get caught out at one point - for example he could simply trap the alternate route you take.

 

2. Again I'd refer to the informants, the first thing they'd discern is the ships capabilities, and its nuclear cargo. However I think you have it wrong with the staging area, its likely attached the droid foundry somehow, likely beneath it. After all we see droids pour out from nowhere during the Battle of Geonosis, and coming pouring out of the droid factory in the Second Battle. Wherever they are, its only logically they'd be inside the shield radius.

 

That said they aren't much use sitting around planetside, they'll likely be shipped off to various Lucrehulks scattered across the galaxy (probably in concealed locations) where they can be more quickly dispatched.

 

But wait a minute! This is Boba Fett not Jango Fett we are talking about here! Boba's only being to Geonosis once as a kid and I doubt he remembers much, heck I very much doubt he was given the grand tour. I doubt he knows a single thing about Geonosis other than its general temperature!

 

3. See above, I doubt even Jango knew anything about the catacombs. And as I believe I may of said, I doubt HK-01 will be any near the planet, heck I expect by this point G0-T0 would have replicated the code and have no need for him. I also expect G0-T0 might be capable of refining the orders somewhat, though I do believe HK had control over the droids actions. I also doubt they will split up, the droids were a key part of the Mando's attack tactics.

 

4. Not if its concealed by some kind of cloaking device, which in all honesty only has to conceal it from sensors as it will be so small that its already invisible to the naked eye. And I doubt such devices are too difficult to acquire. But lets remember it will be a transmitter, the center of operations will likely be far more secluded, and with G0-T0 at the helm.

 

I don't see what the Mon Cal people can do about prepared sabotage and infiltration. Which will be made even more easier by hacked droids which will seem completely normal from the outside. Worst comes to worst they can just hide people in crates. Don't expect the Mon Cal inspection team to turf anything up. Lets really not forget that until the invasion, G0-T0 controlled the shipyards. He can lay all manner of traps and the Soly'c Empire would walk right into them, he's not going to start setting up traps once they've taken over etc.

 

And you mean Boba right? Not Jango? *questioning gaze* I kid, I kid, a very good point. However don't overlook the fact that the Kaminoan cities are in the middle of the ocean and you can't exactly infiltrate via disguise. And fine, nuke the cities, infect the water supplies! Kill the little fishies! No but seriously, you don't have to nuke everything. And if you do you'll quickly find public support falls from your favour and G0-T0 will no doubt turn that against you.

 

Regardless, I don't think this is a mistake the Sol'yc Empire will make.

 

Concerning the HK-50 factory, I don't think it would be too difficult considering the Exchange already have a presence there and are aware of the factories location (and G0-T0 likely possesses technical readouts) all they have to do is hack remotely into its network and upload the code to the droids, this shouldn't be too difficult. Or they could get someone to infiltrate it manually, by replacing say an intoxicated/drugged Mandalorian. Mando's go to bars.

 

Concerning infiltration, I have three words to say: droids, droids, droids! Its simply a matter of accessing your fleets and uploading the signals, or replacing the droids with corrupted copies. That astromech over there? Spy. That friendly looking protocol droid? Spy. That medical droid? He's a spy too. In fact that wasn't bacta he just injected into your system, that was a deadly neurotoxin, and any minute now your going to keel over a die... any minute.

 

Well that's the point, the war is a facade for his true goals, which infiltration efforts will aid. But I think it might be good to revisit Warren's arguments on that - I feel that requires some more thorough debate.

[Beniboybling]

In fact I'm pretty sure every attempt on her life has resulted in the death of the assassin.

Oh and could you list some examples maybe here? I'm pretty in the dark about all this.

[Beniboybling]

And that would worry the SE how again? The DS is by the definition of its faction a genocidal force bend on killing all sentient life in the galaxy. Imagine if THAT got on the HoloNet...

I would point out here that the application of nuclear weapons as opposed to ultimately a proofless claim that G0-T0 is a crazy droid and not a respectable [insert respectably job-title here who might have an excuse for having an army and a grudge against Mandalorians], would be more convincing.

[StarSquirrel]

I would point out here that the application of nuclear weapons as opposed to ultimately a proofless claim that G0-T0 is a crazy droid and not a respectable [insert respectably job-title here who might have an excuse for having an army and a grudge against Mandalorians], would be more convincing.

 

And once droids started killing their masters as HK-01 spreads his programming? Or how how about the armies of droids that start marching across occupied worlds? Perhaps the mechanical garrisons and droid commanders wouldn't tip people off? And on top of that to be supported by a criminal fleet and financed by a criminal organization. By the time Dac falls G0-T0's work at hiding things will start to come undone pretty fast. And the SE knows from the get-go what they're facing.

[StarSquirrel]

Oh and could you list some examples maybe here? I'm pretty in the dark about all this.

Well I'll start by pointing out that surviving assassination attempts is required to be Queen Mother at all

However, to be in the line of succession meant both the Queen Mother and her heir (the Chume'da) had to avoid constant attempts on their lives by jealous relatives who vied for the throne themselves. The great importance of the Queen Mother meant that any threats made against her was a ground for immediate execution.

 

Then we go to the Assassination attempts. I was incorrect, typically she captured (and often interrogated) them. When she was young this happened

Then after foiling a plot by one of Ta'a Chume's ambassadors to kill her and her grandmother, she decided that her path was definitely one of a Jedi.

When the attack did come, Tenel Ka journeyed to the landing pad with Lowbacca, where she confronted Tamith Kai. Soon a TIE fighter came crashing down on the landing pad only moments after Tenel Ka and Lowbacca were able to escape, though the Nightsister was not.

On route to Hapes, her escape pod was intercepted by Hapan pirates wearing the colors of the Ni'Korish. Because they resented the fact that Tenel Ka shunned her Hapan heritage and that she was a Jedi trainee, they opened fire on her once she was on board their craft. She used her Force abilities to defeat them, but she let them live as she decided murder was not the way of the Jedi.[18]

On Hapes, Tenel Ka was greeted by her father, and saved him from an assassination attempt by his cousin.

Tenel Ka placed her grandmother under arrest for her part in the murder of Teneniel Djo.

Tenel Ka then woke up and helped Jacen defend Allana from the Killiks.

Tenel Ka then geared up for a battle, and prepared all of her fleets and took position over Hapes on her personal Battle Dragon, Dragon Queen. They were soon attacked by the AlGray fleet, as well as the Corellian fleet which contained two Corellian Dreadnaughts. During the battle, Jaina and Zekk arrived to reveal that Ducha Galney was a traitorous noble. When Galney's fleet arrived, Tenel Ka knew they were against her. Meanwhile, Han and Leia had arrived and had picked up Jaina and Zekk and Ben Skywalker and a Galactic Alliance Guard operative after their ship had exploded. Jacen saw their ship and opened fire on it, though they were able to escape.[25]

 

The tide of the battle turned when Galactic Alliance admiral Nek Bwua'tu arrived and hammered the Corellian fleet. The battle turned in Tenel Ka's favor, and the Corellians were forced to flee.

After this most of the attempts on her life were foiled by the people she surrounded herself with such as Zekk and her cousins, the Solos, her guards, and Allana.

 

Also, as to her ability to use nukes,

After becoming the Queen Mother, Tenel Ka had to sacrifice many of her beliefs and ideals, and adapt them to the Hapan way. No longer the Dathomiri warrior on the outside, Tenel Ka had to become colder and more demanding as a person, a personality fitting for the Queen Mother. She also became more analytical and intricate, and took pleasure in throwing off her nobles and playing games to discover which were loyal to her and which just wished to become her paramour. For example, Tenel Ka's sense of humor had never been ideal, as said by Jacen Solo, and it was a fact she was well aware of. And so when she told a joke, she knew that those who laughed wanted something from her, as opposed to those who did not.

 

I can verify every quote here btw I have the books each entry came from.

Edited January 31, 2014 by StarSquirrel

[Beniboybling]

And once droids started killing their masters as HK-01 spreads his programming? Or how how about the armies of droids that start marching across occupied worlds? Perhaps the mechanical garrisons and droid commanders wouldn't tip people off? And on top of that to be supported by a criminal fleet and financed by a criminal organization. By the time Dac falls G0-T0's work at hiding things will start to come undone pretty fast. And the SE knows from the get-go what they're facing.

Well I doubt G0-T0 is going to allow another Droid Revolution, and not everyone is anti-droidist. Nothing wrong with a droid army. They also would not be aware of the Exchange's involvement, or that the fleet was of criminal origins.

 

I think G0-T0 can keep things underwraps, but I also feel if the Sol'yc Empire uses nuclear weapons in a humane manner (that means not bombing heavily populated Kaminoan cities) they can retain public support.

 

Not that is that significant. Both factions and fairly self sufficient.

 

As for the quotes, lol I love the way you present it "Tenel Ka then woke up and helped Jacen defend Allana from the Killiks" - all in a days work no? But good points, good points nonetheless.

[StarSquirrel]

As for the quotes, lol I love the way you present it "Tenel Ka then woke up and helped Jacen defend Allana from the Killiks" - all in a days work no? But good points, good points nonetheless.

 

lol, not the strongest argument but hey... she got thrown into a wall and she'd been severely distracted before that happened yet she still kicked some alien bug *** so cut the girl some slack

Edited January 31, 2014 by StarSquirrel

[Beniboybling]

lol, not the strongest argument but hey... she got thrown into a wall and she'd been severely distracted before that happened yet she still kicked some alien bug *** so cut the girl some slack

Ha, I interpreted it as her getting out of bed in the morning to foil yet another slew of assassination attempts.

[StarSquirrel]

Ha, I interpreted it as her getting out of bed in the morning to foil yet another slew of assassination attempts.

Knowing those Hapans though I bet she severed a few heads before her first cup of coffee in the morning...

[Beniboybling]

Knowing those Hapans though I bet she severed a few heads before her first cup of coffee in the morning...

Naturally.

[tunewalker]

Knowing those Hapans though I bet she severed a few heads before her first cup of coffee in the morning...

 

No no, she would have them severe their own heads remember the hapans conduct executions through the use of the command guns. The perpetrators gladly commit suicide for their goddess .

[Warren-Stride]

It probably will take them an extra day or so to reach Geonosis, but their strength will be nearly full when they do. Also, for the DS to have a fleet that can overpower the main force of Nek, they'd have to send only a token force to harass the SE's reinforcements. Considering they've lost the biggest ship producer at Dac, if they tried to directly engage Nek they'd lose so much that the reinforcements would clean them up with ease.

 

One thing I'd like to point out about the navy situation is the numbers. The fact that the DS more than doubly outnumbers the SE has a couple implications.

 

If the SE wants to have a chance of attacking two targets at the same time, they'd have to split their fleet in two. So 45 each. On top of that, unless it wants to leave its worlds totally undefended, they'd have to leave behind at least 5 ships per world. So (90-25) / 2 = 32.5.

 

So if there are 32 SE ships attacking Geonosis or Mon Calamari, and the DS has, say 50 defending each, that's obviously a problem for the claim that the SE will destroy anything in those planet's orbit. (By the way, the other 100 DS ships would be off pounding the 25 ships left behind to defend the SE)

 

The reason why 50 vs. 32 is a problem is more than just the straight-up firepower advantage. The SE simply has less ships. Less ships means fewer targets for the DS. If the DS destroys a SE ship in this scenario, the SE fleet will lose about 3% of its total force. In contrast, if the DS loses a ship, that's only a 2% loss to its total forces.

 

On a larger scale, every time a DS ship is destroyed, it loses .5% of it's total naval power. The SE, on the other hand, would lose 1.1% of it's naval power when a ship is destroyed.

 

What this means is that even if the DS navy is only 1/2 as good at destroying SE ships as the SE is a destroying DS ships, the DS will still win in space. And, as I've shown earlier, the SE ships do not outmatch the DS ships, they're pretty much even.

 

Of course this doesn't take into account a lot of factors. Like tacticians. Well, what this statistical disadvantage means for the SE tacticians is that they're going to have to play it safe. They can't afford to engage in giant battles with a much larger enemy fleet, because every ship they lose is a huge blow to their forces. They can't go all-out into a battle, because that would risk crippling their ability to have another one.

 

Say that in the 32 vs. 50 example, the SE wins, but loses 25 ships. The SE has just lost 27% of its naval forces for one victory.

 

Long story short, the SE cannot possibly hope to stage a winning offensive while defending their own worlds.

 

Oh, and if all 65 of the SE ships go to one planet (like Geonosis or Kamino), remember that the DS ships are much faster. They are pirate/smuggling ships, after all. The DS could easily have 100 ships over the planet before the SE ships even arrive.

 

The HK-50 factory on Telos is a fortress. He can't just walk right in, reprogram them and walk (or float) out. The only known person to get in was the exile and she fought the hell out of the entire defensive net to get in (iirc). No, the best the DS can do is lay siege with droids and force the SE to expend resources to free up its droid production.

 

Actually, if I remember correctly, that's exactly what HK-47 did. The HK-50s could not attack another HK droid, due to their programming. So HK-47 walked in, reprogrammed them, and walked out. As luck should have it, the DS has an HK droid of its own.

 

Also, on this whole "search for HK-01" thing, he's an ally, so the SE won't even know he exists until the DS wants them to. The corruption of SE droids could come at any time. And once it does start, the SE won't even know that they're looking for a droid, all it seems like is a signal.

Edited February 1, 2014 by Warren-Stride

[Warren-Stride]

Now that I think about it, the winning move for the DS is simply a defensive one.

 

Devote all 200 of the DS ships to defending DS worlds. Use informants, corrupted droids, etc. to give the DS the heads up about SE offensives. Send the majority of the fleet (or however much is needed) to defend the planet the SE is attacking. Destroy the SE fleet.

 

Rinse and repeat.

 

By playing it defensively and using its numbers to demolish whatever small force the SE sends will quickly dissolve the numbers of the SE fleet. Remembering that the SE will have to leave some ships behind to defend the home front, the DS only needs to deal with the 65-70 ships the SE can spare, with its own 200 ships. Then, once only about 20 SE ships remain, just swoop in and wreck the SE worlds.

 

And production, while this is happening, will obviously favor the DS.

[StarSquirrel]

One thing I'd like to point out about the navy situation is the numbers. The fact that the DS more than doubly outnumbers the SE has a couple implications.

 

If the SE wants to have a chance of attacking two targets at the same time, they'd have to split their fleet in two. So 45 each. On top of that, unless it wants to leave its worlds totally undefended, they'd have to leave behind at least 5 ships per world. So (90-25) / 2 = 32.5.

 

So if there are 32 SE ships attacking Geonosis or Mon Calamari, and the DS has, say 50 defending each, that's obviously a problem for the claim that the SE will destroy anything in those planet's orbit. (By the way, the other 100 DS ships would be off pounding the 25 ships left behind to defend the SE)

 

The reason why 50 vs. 32 is a problem is more than just the straight-up firepower advantage. The SE simply has less ships. Less ships means fewer targets for the DS. If the DS destroys a SE ship in this scenario, the SE fleet will lose about 3% of its total force. In contrast, if the DS loses a ship, that's only a 2% loss to its total forces.

 

On a larger scale, every time a DS ship is destroyed, it loses .5% of it's total naval power. The SE, on the other hand, would lose 1.1% of it's naval power when a ship is destroyed.

 

What this means is that even if the DS navy is only 1/2 as good at destroying SE ships as the SE is a destroying DS ships, the DS will still win in space. And, as I've shown earlier, the SE ships do not outmatch the DS ships, they're pretty much even.

 

Of course this doesn't take into account a lot of factors. Like tacticians. Well, what this statistical disadvantage means for the SE tacticians is that they're going to have to play it safe. They can't afford to engage in giant battles with a much larger enemy fleet, because every ship they lose is a huge blow to their forces. They can't go all-out into a battle, because that would risk crippling their ability to have another one.

 

Say that in the 32 vs. 50 example, the SE wins, but loses 25 ships. The SE has just lost 27% of its naval forces for one victory.

 

Long story short, the SE cannot possibly hope to stage a winning offensive while defending their own worlds.

 

Oh, and if all 65 of the SE ships go to one planet (like Geonosis or Kamino), remember that the DS ships are much faster. They are pirate/smuggling ships, after all. The DS could easily have 100 ships over the planet before the SE ships even arrive.

You like to use numbers, yet I've yet to see one set from you that acknowledges that the vast majority of those "50" ships you have are FRIGATES. The Kandosii and Kyramud-types will ROLL THEM OVER even the smaller frigates of the mando fleet are better or equal to the majority of the DS fleet. The Mando fleet will not suffer nearly the casualties you're referring to. For one, the missiles they have allow them to engage at a far greater distance so they won't be met by "50" ships to begin with but 45-30 ships.

 

I refuse to accept your earlier ship comparisons and numbers because they imply you have more than one or two MC-80's and that the vast majority of your fleet somehow isn't a mass of frigates and armed freighters as the Black Sun Navy is in every account I've seen of them (if they have what you could call a "fleet" to begin with)

 

With superior tactics and ships a 32-50 engagement would end much closer to 5-1 in SE's favor. Thats 50 DS ships lost for every 10 SE ships. Thats approximately 11% losses compared to 25% casualties for the DS. Considering superior production for the SE and that will tip things very quickly in the SE's favor.

 

I know you like numbers, but you're really just using them to validate an incorrect view of the battlefield. When you make your numbers reasonable and account for your own fleet's weaknesses, then I'll start taking them at face value.

 

See I dislike numbers that are as subjective as opinion because we get into arguing the specific numbers not the whole of the battle, but if you insist on using them I can fight that battle as well.

 

 

Actually, if I remember correctly, that's exactly what HK-47 did. The HK-50s could not attack another HK droid, due to their programming. So HK-47 walked in, reprogrammed them, and walked out. As luck should have it, the DS has an HK droid of its own.

 

Also, on this whole "search for HK-01" thing, he's an ally, so the SE won't even know he exists until the DS wants them to. The corruption of SE droids could come at any time. And once it does start, the SE won't even know that they're looking for a droid, all it seems like is a signal.

 

Point. Though I still don't think it will serve to be a massive blow when the bulk of the leadership is using Mandalorians and the HK-50's would most likely be sent to board DS ships or hunt G0-T0. It means they won't succeed and it'll be a setback for the SE but they'll hardly be capable of doing too much damage to the SE in return. Also, thatr trick would only work once. Then the SE would just reprogram them all or vent them into space.

Edited February 1, 2014 by StarSquirrel

[Warren-Stride]

I know you like numbers, but you're really just using them to validate an incorrect view of the battlefield. When you make your numbers reasonable and account for your own fleet's weaknesses, then I'll start taking them at face value.

 

I find this a little ironic.

[Beniboybling]

I'm just going to highlight this post because it didn't seem to be noticed last time.

 

The majority of the Droid Supremacy's force are not frigates, but its capital ships are not Venators.

[Warren-Stride]

See I dislike numbers that are as subjective as opinion because we get into arguing the specific numbers not the whole of the battle, but if you insist on using them I can fight that battle as well.

 

Alright, we can drop the numbers.

 

Instead, let's look at history.

 

You often compare the DS navy to the Republic Navy during the Mandalorian Wars. With smaller ships and whatnot. Unfortunately, this comparison doesn't exactly work in your favor. The Republic DID win that war. And yes, I know that Revan was a major reason for that. But one of Revan's major tactical decisions?

"Moral shortcuts" became common under his leadership as Revan and Malak began to adopt a policy of victory at all costs.

 

Droids like G0-T0, Guri, and HK-01 are not restricted by morals. A "victory at all costs" attitude is what beat back the Mandalorian fleet last time. G0-T0 and Guri have nothing to lose. They don't need to care (and they can't care) about the droids piloting their ships, or even the people on their planets. They will make sacrafices if they need to, and won't be hindered by moral dilemmas.

 

Sacrificing worlds, ships, etc. is all part of the game for G0-T0. Suicide bombers, dirty-fighting, traps, he will do anything to make sure he wins. And, according to history, that's what he needs to do to do it.

[Warren-Stride]

I'm just going to highlight this post because it didn't seem to be noticed last time.

 

The majority of the Droid Supremacy's force are not frigates, but its capital ships are not Venators.

 

Although that may be true, the frigate ship that I listed for the Mandalorian Navy is also classified as a capital ship. So....

 

*shrug*

Edited February 1, 2014 by Warren-Stride

[Beniboybling]

Although that may be true, the frigate ship that I listed for the Mandalorian Navy is also classified as a capital ship. So....

 

*shrug*

In Star Wars a capital ship is an armed vessel longer than 100 metres, this can be anything from a corvette to a Star Destroyer, its simply a vessel designed for war that is not a starfighter/gunship etc.

 

All in all I feel we can say that the Interceptors make up the "bulk" of the Black Sun Navy in the same way that Venator's made up the bulk of the Republic Navy and Kyramud's the Mandalorian navy.

[Selenial]

Now that I think about it, the winning move for the DS is simply a defensive one.

 

Devote all 200 of the DS ships to defending DS worlds. Use informants, corrupted droids, etc. to give the DS the heads up about SE offensives. Send the majority of the fleet (or however much is needed) to defend the planet the SE is attacking. Destroy the SE fleet.

 

Rinse and repeat.

 

By playing it defensively and using its numbers to demolish whatever small force the SE sends will quickly dissolve the numbers of the SE fleet. Remembering that the SE will have to leave some ships behind to defend the home front, the DS only needs to deal with the 65-70 ships the SE can spare, with its own 200 ships. Then, once only about 20 SE ships remain, just swoop in and wreck the SE worlds.

 

And production, while this is happening, will obviously favor the DS.

 

Except IMO you can't out produce the SE in space.

 

Oh, and I highly doubt you'd manage to get spies into the Mandalorians, Mandalorians were incredibly Loyal, and any who weren't were never accepted. None of them would betray their clan or world for droids, especially because the Mandalorians of G0-T0's time considered him nothing more than a petty criminal.

[Warren-Stride]

Except IMO you can't out produce the SE in space.

 

I am perplexed by this. The Mon Calamari shipyards were one of the best in galactic history. Not to mention the Bothawui shipyards and (however small) the shipyards on Nar Shaddaa and Kamino.

 

You said earlier in this thread that it would take the Mon Calamari shipyards six months to make a MC80. If the SE is trying to make ships of that caliber with a less-than-well-known shipyard, you honestly think that will take less time?

[Selenial]

I am perplexed by this. The Mon Calamari shipyards were one of the best in galactic history. Not to mention the Bothawui shipyards and (however small) the shipyards on Nar Shaddaa and Kamino.

 

You said earlier in this thread that it would take the Mon Calamari shipyards six months to make a MC80. If the SE is trying to make ships of that caliber with a less-than-well-known shipyard, you honestly think that will take less time?

 

Well, I still hold to the fact that the Mon Cala won't work for you willingly, yeh, They can out produce you.

Especially when you force them to stick to one Ship Design, like you'd have to.

 

And Mandalore etc are specifically fitted to produce the SE navy, so that's not a disadvantage to them.

[StarSquirrel]

Well, I still hold to the fact that the Mon Cala won't work for you willingly, yeh, They can out produce you.

Especially when you force them to stick to one Ship Design, like you'd have to.

 

And Mandalore etc are specifically fitted to produce the SE navy, so that's not a disadvantage to them.

 

I'll add that Kamino doesn't have shipyards and Mon Cal would be the first world to fall anyway. I addressed the Kamino issue in Post #64

 

Also Warren, when you tried to reverse the "republic vs mando" thing on me. Remember that the republic started winning when Revan had worlds to sacrifice. The DS can't afford to lose Mon Cal, Geonosis ect... (which they will anyway). They're caught in a dang-if-they-do, dang-if-they-dont situation. Revan didn't sacrifice major production worlds, just worlds that didn't matter greatly to him. That was what a lessened moral standard gave him. Is G0-T0 going to sacrifice everything for a mad dash attack on the main SE worlds? I doubt it.

 

Edit: Also, the production over Nar Shadda is exclusively fighters. Early generation TIE-fighters at that.

Edited February 1, 2014 by StarSquirrel

[Canino]

I'M BACK!

 

At least, for now. I have a little time at the moment, although that is subject to change.

 

First and foremost, I would like to congratulate Aurbere for his victory over me in our last Kaggath. A hard fought battle. Very nicely done. And I don't think I ever did get around to congratulating you, as I was in serious time constants (hell week, for any thespians here). So, I'm here and might as well do it. After all, it's was quite rude of me.

 

On to the next reason I'm here- supporting my droid friend . Question: What sort of allegiance do planets under the combatants hold to their factions? A vow? Oath? Occupation? This is sort of important for one of my arguments, although not exceedingly. And I know its a weird question, but I think it would be helpful to know in general.