Kaggath Tournament - Sol'yc Empire vs Droid Supremacy

[Aurbere]

Thanks Beni!

 

 

 

Alright, I think it's time to start talking about Droidekas.

 

The shielded Destroyer droids that sent Qui-gon Jinn and Obi-wan running scared.

 

They weren't running scared. It was a standoff and they didn't have time to stand around deflecting blaster bolts all day.

[Beniboybling]

They weren't running scared. It was a standoff and they didn't have time to stand around deflecting blaster bolts all day.

Its just a figure of speech, but in the end I think they did just run away.

 

I mean, I don't see how they could have won that confrontation.

[tunewalker]

Its just a figure of speech, but in the end I think they did just run away.

 

I mean, I don't see how they could have won that confrontation.

 

They likely could have with force powers, It was a stand-off it was a stated stand off, it would take longer to take them down then they would have had for enemy response time though. That being said Lightsabers arent the best weapons against the droids nor would they be what the mandalorians used..... so not much of a point I think.

[Beniboybling]

They likely could have with force powers, It was a stand-off it was a stated stand off, it would take longer to take them down then they would have had for enemy response time though. That being said Lightsabers arent the best weapons against the droids nor would they be what the mandalorians used..... so not much of a point I think.

Meh, lets just stick with the point that Droidekas were tough for Jedi to handle.

[Beniboybling]

Plus just because Droidekas are able to make Jedi run because of repeating blasters and shields, doesn't mean a nice Ion grenade or thermal det won't take em out.

I'd just point out the thermal detonators and ion grenades don't work on droidekas, unless you carefully roll them through their shields. If they simply explode in close or even extreme proximity that Droideka should survive.

[Aurbere]

Its just a figure of speech, but in the end I think they did just run away.

 

I mean, I don't see how they could have won that confrontation.

 

That's why it was a standoff. In that specific encounter, neither side could win.

[Selenial]

I'd just point out the thermal detonators and ion grenades don't work on droidekas, unless you carefully roll them through their shields. If they simply explode in close or even extreme proximity that Droideka should survive.

 

They'd get rolled back by any explosions, forced back into a roll...

 

Exposed to blasters, or other explosions while rolling.

[Beniboybling]

They'd get rolled back by any explosions, forced back into a roll...

 

Exposed to blasters, or other explosions while rolling.

Lol, no. But nice try.

[Selenial]

Lol, no. But nice try.

 

Droideka's shields can be overloaded, by massive amounts of energy. An explosion is just that, close enough and they'll go boom, shields reset, and they get put back into ball mode.

[Beniboybling]

Droideka's shields can be overloaded, by massive amounts of energy. An explosion is just that, close enough and they'll go boom, shields reset, and they get put back into ball mode.

This is true, but only by an explosion powerful enough. In this instance neither an ion grenade nor a thermal detonator packs sufficient punch, so the droid will be completely unaffected by the explosion.

 

Though if the shields were overloaded, I fail to see why they would "get put back into ball mode."

Edited January 29, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Selenial]

This is true, but only by an explosion powerful enough. In this instance neither an ion grenade nor a thermal detonator packs sufficient punch, so the droid will be completely unaffected by the explosion.

 

Though if the shields were overloaded, I fail to see why they would "get put back into ball mode."

 

Ball mode is defense mechanism, they're weak without the shields, easily destroyed.

 

I think you're forgetting what power a thermal detonator holds. Jabba's throne room, about 15m by 15m, all targets within it were afraid for their lives because he had a thermal detonater. An explosion from that, was powerful enough to kill Jabba too, which is a feat because Hutt hide is strong.

 

Just most known example IMO.

[Beniboybling]

Ball mode is defense mechanism, they're weak without the shields, easily destroyed.

 

I think you're forgetting what power a thermal detonator holds. Jabba's throne room, about 15m by 15m, all targets within it were afraid for their lives because he had a thermal detonater. An explosion from that, was powerful enough to kill Jabba too, which is a feat because Hutt hide is strong.

 

Just most known example IMO.

I really don't know what your getting at with this whole ball mode business.

 

Thermal detonators were standard amongst Clone Troopers and other military forces. Yet the clones were specifically taught how to roll said detonators through droideka shields to destroy them. If the explosion alone was enough to destroy them then this delicate and far from fool-proof method would have just been unnecessary..

 

The same applies for ion grenades.

 

But come now, Droideka shields > Hutt skin ten to one and then some. A blaster bolt to the stomach would have killed Jabba for sure. Heck you could just stuck him with a pointy object, he is not made of durasteel.

 

Anyway, according to Wookieepedia:

 

These personal energy shields projected could endure much punishment, capable of deflecting or absorbing virtually any manner of energy or projectile fire up to the level of a light artillery bolt...

 

That's taken from Labyrinth of Evil. Now would a series of jetpack mounted rocket launchers and/or a volley from a mass driver cannon do the trick? Probably, but Droidekas will render most other weaponry quite useless.

[Selenial]

I really don't know what your getting at with this whole ball mode business.

 

Thermal detonators were standard amongst Clone Troopers and other military forces. Yet the clones were specifically taught how to roll said detonators through droideka shields to destroy them. If the explosion alone was enough to destroy them then this delicate and far from fool-proof method would have just been unnecessary..

 

The same applies for ion grenades.

 

But come now, Droideka shields > Hutt skin ten to one and then some. A blaster bolt to the stomach would have killed Jabba for sure. Heck you could just stuck him with a pointy object, he is not made of durasteel.

 

Anyway, according to Wookieepedia:

 

These personal energy shields projected could endure much punishment, capable of deflecting or absorbing virtually any manner of energy or projectile fire up to the level of a light artillery bolt...

 

That's taken from Labyrinth of Evil. Now would a series of jetpack mounted rocket launchers and/or a volley from a mass driver cannon do the trick? Probably, but Droidekas will render most other weaponry quite useless.

 

They were taught to role Droid poppers through, they rarely used Thermal Detonators so as not to harm the environment and any cities they were defending... You very rarely see them in TCW.

 

But the point has been made.

 

However, I have to say, You can't say in my Kaggath that a motorized Saw won't get through a Hutt, and then say say "a pointy object" would get into one ^.^

[Beniboybling]

However, I have to say, You can't say in my Kaggath that a motorized Saw won't get through a Hutt, and then say say "a pointy object" would get into one ^.^

Hey hey now, I was totally all for the saw... totally.

[Selenial]

Hey hey now, I was totally all for the saw... totally.

 

-_-

 

/5char

[Wolfninjajedi]

On a note about Jabba, I found out a little while ago that he is extremely bad***. Here is what he did...

 

- Escaped a maximum security prison on Coursant which was guarded by 2 dark jedi.

 

- Fought a Wookiee smuggler to a standstill after about 6/7 hours of H2H combat + blasters

Edited January 29, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[Aurbere]

On a note about Jabba, I found out a little while ago that he is extremely bad***. Here is what he did...

 

- Escaped a maximum security prison on Coursant which was guarded by 2 dark jedi.

 

- Fought a Wookiee smuggler to a standstill after about 6/7 hours of H2H combat + blasters

 

Considering that the Hutts were once warrior clans, I'm not surprised.

[Warren-Stride]

They (and Jango) surrounded Anakin only, Padme was confronted by Geonosians. Of course take into account that Anakin's saber was shot to ****, so he couldn't really fight them off(well defensive wise anyhow).

 

XD I obviously need to watch Attack of the Clones again. Whoops.

 

That being said, I specifically remember Anakin and Obi-wan talking over holo-comm and then all of a sudden Obi-wan is being attacked by droidekas. And the next scene we see him in, he's in force-field chains.

 

So correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears that droidekas managed to defeat a fully-armed Obi-wan Kenobi, who, as many like to point out, is the master of Soresu, the blaster-bolt deflection style. That says something for droideka skill.

Edited January 29, 2014 by Warren-Stride

[Beniboybling]

XD I obviously need to watch Attack of the Clones again. Whoops.

 

That being said, I specifically remember Anakin and Obi-wan talking over holo-comm and then all of a sudden Obi-wan is being attacked by droidekas. And the next scene we see him in, he's in force-field chains.

 

So correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears that droidekas managed to defeat a fully-armed Obi-wan Kenobi, who, as many like to point out, if the master of Soresu, the blaster-bolt deflection style. That says something for droideka skill.

That is true, but I suspect he had sufficient backup.

 

There was also that clever stunt he pulled when Grievous had Kenobi corned on a set of walkways need deep in droidekas, B2s and the like, and Kenobi force pushed the droidekas away which sent them rolling down the walkways and knocking off everything in their paths. This is something at least Jaina could employ.

[Warren-Stride]

I agree that Geonosis will be the primary target for the SE. However, even if the SE succeeds, they've only take out the quantity of droids the DS has, not the quality.

 

Kamino is the site of production for the Terror Droids, which are thousands of times deadlier than the B1s. We're talking monstrous droids that can simulate force lightning and telekinesis, smaller droids that can easily swarm and overrun enemy ships, and giant Terror Walkers whose lasers would disintegrate any Mandalorian Protector it hits.

 

So the SE blowing up Geonosis really does nothing but give the DS more time to build Terror Droids. The B1s/Trade Federation Army are all cannon fodder. The real threat comes from Kamino. And, as is a common debate, does quality or quantity matter more? Well, the DS has both.

 

Side note: how many Mandalorian Protectors / HK-50s are there? What are the SE's numbers?

Edited January 29, 2014 by Warren-Stride

[Wolfninjajedi]

XD I obviously need to watch Attack of the Clones again. Whoops.

 

That being said, I specifically remember Anakin and Obi-wan talking over holo-comm and then all of a sudden Obi-wan is being attacked by droidekas. And the next scene we see him in, he's in force-field chains.

 

So correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears that droidekas managed to defeat a fully-armed Obi-wan Kenobi, who, as many like to point out, is the master of Soresu, the blaster-bolt deflection style. That says something for droideka skill.

 

Obi-Wan wasn't yet the master of Soresu until Episode 3, Episode 2 IIRC he was using Soresu with Ataru still thrown into the mix of things. Obi-Wan Episode 2 timeframe is nowhere near the skill he is during Episode 3 timeframe.

Edited January 29, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[tunewalker]

XD I obviously need to watch Attack of the Clones again. Whoops.

 

That being said, I specifically remember Anakin and Obi-wan talking over holo-comm and then all of a sudden Obi-wan is being attacked by droidekas. And the next scene we see him in, he's in force-field chains.

 

So correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears that droidekas managed to defeat a fully-armed Obi-wan Kenobi, who, as many like to point out, is the master of Soresu, the blaster-bolt deflection style. That says something for droideka skill.

 

You have to remember though that driodeka's were likely not the ONLY thing there. While we saw them its highly likely there were more droids then that and he got surounded and captured. Honestly I think the biggest mistake that constantly happens is people assume we have seen everything that happened through all portions of all the wars.

 

This is a case where its implied the moment Obi-wan was spotted he got ambushed and eventually captured by an overwhelming force similar to the way Anakin was captured (though he did break his saber before hand).

[Aurbere]

XD I obviously need to watch Attack of the Clones again. Whoops.

 

That being said, I specifically remember Anakin and Obi-wan talking over holo-comm and then all of a sudden Obi-wan is being attacked by droidekas. And the next scene we see him in, he's in force-field chains.

 

So correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears that droidekas managed to defeat a fully-armed Obi-wan Kenobi, who, as many like to point out, is the master of Soresu, the blaster-bolt deflection style. That says something for droideka skill.

 

Kenobi was an experienced Soresu user, but, like Tune said, there's probably more to that scene. Considering that he was deflecting droideka attacks fairly easily in Phantom Menace. I don't think training in the blaster deflection Form is going to decrease one's ability, right?

[Beniboybling]

Hmm, despite the length we've covered quite a lot. So I might start moving to a decision. But in the mean time, has Star or anyone else got a response to #272 and/or #273? I've noticed these have gone unchallenged.

[StarSquirrel]

Some good points, but I'd highlight a few things here:

 

1. You should consider that the Mandalorian Fleets may be waylaid on route to Geonosis, considering G0-T0's various intelligence gather capabilities. Mining a hyperlane and placing a gravity well generator in the center who prove possibly crippling to a incoming fleet, and then they could well be totally destroyed amongst the confusion by a fleet of Black Sun vessels possessing superior numbers. In that way you may never reach Geonosis.

 

2. Geonosis may not have a planetary shield, but it does have shield generators protecting select factories which were strong enough to withstand orbital bombardment. Equipped with particle shields and they could probably withstand a nuclear missile, and then recycle before another hit. And if G0-T0 learns of the nuclear missiles, he may have anti-missile defense systems installed that can shoot them down.

 

3. If the missiles did strike the damage would be catastrophic, however Boba's strike team might not be all that effective considering that HK-01 could hack their droids and turn them against them. Which certainly wouldn't fare well if they were deep in the catacombs (which could be collapsed) of which Boba himself has little to know knowledge of.

 

4. Its unlikely HK-01 or the broadcasting equipment would be planetside. It probably wouldn't even be on Geonosis, which isn't even the capital world. More likely they'll a transmitter in orbit linked to a central droid computer.

 

Concerning endgame, its possible you could capture the Dac shipyards but again the above argument applies. Especially considering you are not in very close proximity. Though if you do capture them G0-T0 may use it as a means to sabotage and infiltrate your ships with assassins, spies and the like, tracking your movements across the galaxy.

 

We should also consider that Kamino has planetary shields also, and they had to ram a capital ship into it to destroy them and even then that wasn't enough to destroy the entire facility. You'll have no choice but to mount a ground invasion, which could prove difficult considering the isolated location and terror trooper facilities.

 

Slowly searching Nar Shaddaa also makes you vulnerable to infiltration, misdirection and opposition from local criminal entities. You might just find your troops on that planet are mysteriously silenced and your ships boarded by smugglers, pirates and the like - and more assassins and spies of course etc. etc.

 

And concerning the HK-50 factory, I doubt G0-T0 will be so indiscreet as to simply convert the droids and have them attack openly. Most likely he'll keep them dormant and allow HK-50 production to continue, perhaps even, with the help of his Exchange contacts, subverting shipments and forging records to effectively take them for his own. And of course those who are not taken will only act to increase G0-T0's web of intelligence.

 

I also suspect it is the Sol'yc Empire whose supply lines would be raided whereas the Droid Supremacy is in many ways very self sufficient and will likely transport cargo through more discreet means and via secret hyperlanes.

 

Altogether I feel while the Sol'yc Empire will likely be effectively pushing the invasion, with ever step they make another spy infiltrates their ranks, another saboteur sets a trap. And its only a matter of time before orders and given, triggers are pressed and chaos and confusion starts erupting amongst your forces, then G0-T0 strikes.

 

Just some food for though while Warren is absent.

 

1. Nek is the master of just those tactics. It was standard procedure for Rebellion (and New Republic) fleets to scout out hyperlanes ahead of the main force for exactly this reason (several accounts in the X-wing series). Nek would also likely suspect ambushes anyway (as that is how the DS will inevitably begin their own campaign) so he'll be taking extra precautions (remember Laryn Kre'fey? Yeah Nek won't make those mistakes). It probably will take them an extra day or so to reach Geonosis, but their strength will be nearly full when they do. Also, for the DS to have a fleet that can overpower the main force of Nek, they'd have to send only a token force to harass the SE's reinforcements. Considering they've lost the biggest ship producer at Dac, if they tried to directly engage Nek they'd lose so much that the reinforcements would clean them up with ease.

 

2. The first use of nuclear missiles would be on Geonosis so G0-T0 would have no prior warning thus he couldn't factor it into the defence. If it was tried again (Kamino/Bothawui/Nar Shadda) he'd probably have those defences established. The Planetary shields protect the factory. But the droids have to be stored somewhere, a staging area so they can be transported offworld. That staging area (which Boba would know about from his time on the planet) would be the target. Once it is destroyed, along with the bulk of the DS's available droid forces on the planet, the SE's commandos would use the EMP blast of the nuke, that scrambled the DS's sensors, to land and assault the factories. They can split into three teams. One plants explosives throughout the factory. Two plants a nuke. The third goes for the shield generators. Between three highly skilled teams of jetpack equipped mandalorian elites, at least one should succeed. And if even one does, the factories are gone.

 

I'd also like to note that if the DS's droid control facility is on a ship over Geonosis, then the Mando fleet would annihilate it. If it is on the surface then the SE would try and track it and use a strike team to eliminate it making yet another target.

 

3. Boba will know enough to get to the factories and avoid the catacombs as much as possible. If HK-01 is on planet he becomes a shining beacon of a target. Also, Mandalorians would likely send the droids into the catacombs (and since HK-01's commands order them to kill living beings then the Geonosians just got a bunch of crazed droids to handle).

 

4. As I mentioned before. Anything in orbit is a sitting duck for the Mando Fleet. HK-01 would be dead before the first mando boot hit the ground.

 

As Sel has made mention before, the Mon Cal when "liberated" (especially once they've been given the whole story) will flock the SE's banner and oppose the genocidal droid forces. It would be incredibly difficult for G0-T0 to do much sabotage under those conditions. Also, Mon Cal is the closest planet in the DS to the SE... agreed they aren't extremely close, but close enough.

 

Boba is really good at this. Like REALLY good. Again the Cabure are elite commandos, they'll infiltrate and find the shield generator and missile defences. We all know how little love of kaminoans Mandalorians have and the fact they are bringing force-using (ish) droids into the battle will be plenty of reason for Nek, Jaina, Tenel Ka, and Boba to agree to nuke it. Also, with Canderous tanks and elite Mandalorian commandos (not the Neo-crusader pansies), I think they are about even with the Terror troopers.

 

eh, Nar Shadda would happen that way when all other DS forces have been neutralized. Also, these particular Mandalorians (the Cabure) have underworld contacts. Before the Vong war they were all Bounty Hunters. Why wouldn't they use that and the idea "to the victory goes the spoils" to get the majority of the criminals on the planet to work with them. Boba is an excellent front man for this, the underworld's more powerful elements would flock to work with him seeing that he'd represent the winning side. A promise here, a deal there, and presto! An entire planet of Bounty Hunters looking for G0-T0.

 

The HK-50 factory on Telos is a fortress. He can't just walk right in, reprogram them and walk (or float) out. The only known person to get in was the exile and she fought the hell out of the entire defensive net to get in (iirc). No, the best the DS can do is lay siege with droids and force the SE to expend resources to free up its droid production.

 

Agreed, I never said the SE would disrupt transportation lines and my scenario even accounted for severe harassment by DS forces. That said, once they attack they lack the power to actually defeat the SE and the choked hyperlanes closer to the core means Bilbringi and Esseles are extremely difficult for them to reach.

 

How, pray tell, does the DS expect to infiltrate a company of the most elite mandalorian commandos the galaxy has ever produced? Boba knows most of his people, it isn't exactly like they'll just pick up stragglers as they move along, and they really don't trust outsiders AT ALL. Heck they their word for outsider also means traitor. Unlike most factions, this one was designed specifically to avoid what you are referring to here. If anyone does infiltrate their ranks, it will be few and they'll lack enough access to do much at all.

 

G0-T0 is also not directing this war effort directly imo. I think he'll, like his last match, leave the war as a distraction and go for Tenel Ka. She is, btw, very ready for him. As a Queen of assassins, she knows a few things about surviving these attempts. In fact I'm pretty sure every attempt on her life has resulted in the death of the assassin.