Kaggath Tournament - Sol'yc Empire vs Droid Supremacy

[Aurbere]

"Guri's reprogramming caused her to change further. Although she still possessed the ability to fight, she no longer had any memory of her time as an assassin, nor would she ever be one again with her assassination programming removed."

 

Taken from the Wookieepedia article on Guri

 

I would assume that this is pre-wipe then.

[ShadowMudkip]

Yes, she did, after she left the service of the Black Sun.

 

However, for the purpose of this Kaggath, all leadership people are in their "prime." That's why we're not facing grandma Jaina or Boba Fett with a stupid haircut and blue jumpsuit.

 

Hehehe, that would be funny

[StarSquirrel]

Hehehe, that would be funny

 

It would suck

 

Well I can't move without some pain but that weekend was fun... So I've caught up and have a question.

 

When we say the SE has 90 ship and the DS has 200, I am under the impression that this means the majority of the DS forces are frigates and smaller while the SE forces contain proportionally more capital ships?

 

After taking a closer look at the DS's available naval power I'm inclined to agree with Beni that they'll adopt hit and run tactics in space. This does, however, leave their shipyards extremely vulnerable. Also I feel the SE will have little trouble with the hit and run tactics of the DS considering that their leaders were the masters of such tactics in their time and the fleet they command was designed to fight the smaller ships of the Republic.

 

Just look at the similarities in the forces that the SE's fleet expects and what they're designed (quite well) to annihilate.

Interceptor-class Frigate----Thranta-class Corvette

 

If someone wants to move off the naval discussion I'm all for it though.

[Beniboybling]

I would assume that this is pre-wipe then.

This.

[Beniboybling]

It would suck

 

Well I can't move without some pain but that weekend was fun... So I've caught up and have a question.

 

When we say the SE has 90 ship and the DS has 200, I am under the impression that this means the majority of the DS forces are frigates and smaller while the SE forces contain proportionally more capital ships?

 

After taking a closer look at the DS's available naval power I'm inclined to agree with Beni that they'll adopt hit and run tactics in space. This does, however, leave their shipyards extremely vulnerable. Also I feel the SE will have little trouble with the hit and run tactics of the DS considering that their leaders were the masters of such tactics in their time and the fleet they command was designed to fight the smaller ships of the Republic.

 

Just look at the similarities in the forces that the SE's fleet expects and what they're designed (quite well) to annihilate.

Interceptor-class Frigate----Thranta-class Corvette

 

If someone wants to move off the naval discussion I'm all for it though.

I think you mean a Hammerhead-class cruiser.

 

That said lets not exaggerate, the Mandalorians did not annihilate the Republic. They played off their apathy to gain an intial advantage and then pushed back, but with Revan's help they were in the end defeated.

 

But I would agree that the Droid Supremacy are far less equipped than the Republic in this situation. But lets not forget they outnumber the Mandalorian Navy two to one, and I doubt the Mandalorians had that advantage in the war.

[Selenial]

I think you mean a Hammerhead-class cruiser.

 

That said lets not exaggerate, the Mandalorians did not annihilate the Republic. They played off their apathy to gain an intial advantage and then pushed back, but with Revan's help they were in the end defeated.

 

But I would agree that the Droid Supremacy are far less equipped than the Republic in this situation. But lets not forget they outnumber the Mandalorian Navy two to one, and I doubt the Mandalorians had that advantage in the war.

 

No, they played of the Jedi apathy, because when it was Ship to Ship warfare, without fantastic tacticians on the Republics side, the republic were annihilated, no matter how many more ships they sent.

 

Starting to ring familiar though, More ships, smaller, no tacticians? Reminding you of anyone?

[StarSquirrel]

I think you mean a Hammerhead-class cruiser.

 

That said lets not exaggerate, the Mandalorians did not annihilate the Republic. They played off their apathy to gain an intial advantage and then pushed back, but with Revan's help they were in the end defeated.

 

But I would agree that the Droid Supremacy are far less equipped than the Republic in this situation. But lets not forget they outnumber the Mandalorian Navy two to one, and I doubt the Mandalorians had that advantage in the war.

 

Their fleet devastated the poorly lead fleets of the Republic in the early stages to the point that they had the Republic scared to death of an assault on Coruscant itself... I understand that the initial attacks benefitted greatly from surprise, but after Taris the republic was able to stabilize and they still got destroyed on multiple occasions.

 

Revan won by sacrificing planets and naval engagements to the superior Mandalorian forces and just overwhelmed them with superior Republic production/numbers/tactics to win the war while losing a lot of battles. (But in SE vs DS the SE has the better tacticians this time).

 

As for the Hammerhead cruiser, yes, you're correct though the Thranta and Hammerhead have similar armaments. If anything the Hammerhead strengthens my argument as it is even closer to the Interceptor's armaments.

Edited January 28, 2014 by StarSquirrel

[Beniboybling]

No, they played of the Jedi apathy, because when it was Ship to Ship warfare, without fantastic tacticians on the Republics side, the republic were annihilated, no matter how many more ships they sent.

 

Starting to ring familiar though, More ships, smaller, no tacticians? Reminding you of anyone?

I think you are forgetting the events of the war...

 

1. The Republic watched on as the Mandalorians conquered territories within the Outer Rim, building up resources and gathering numbers for 8 years, I'd call that quite apathetic.

 

2. The Republic had plenty of able tacticians such as Saul Karath on their side since the beginning. They had the entire Republic Military at their disposal. Revan, Meetra and Alek were not the be all and end all in this respect.

 

3. The Republic were not annihilated, for this I suggest you read the account in the Essential Guide to Warfare. There were victories and defeats on both sides. The Mandalorian advance was halted on multiple occasions, and in the end all it took were a handful of Jedi to turn the tide. That would indicate they had the military might to overcome them.

 

4. The Republic likely did not have more ships, in fact its probable that the Mandalorians had the greater numbers. They certainly did not outnumber them two to one.

 

Is this an example of Mandalorian prowess? Yes. But I'm afraid your accounting of the war is flawed.

Edited January 28, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Selenial]

I think you are forgetting the events of the war...

 

1. The Republic watched on as the Mandalorians conquered territories within the Outer Rim, building up resources and gathering numbers for 8 years, I'd call that quite apathetic.

 

2. The Republic had plenty of able tacticians such as Saul Karath on their side since the beginning. They had the entire Republic Military at their disposal. Revan, Meetra and Alek were not the be all and end all in this respect.

 

3. The Republic were not annihilated, for this I suggest you read the account in the Essential Guide to Warfare. There were victories and defeats on both sides. The Mandalorian advance was halted on multiple occasions, and in the end all it took were a handful of Jedi to turn the tide. That would indicate they had the military might to overcome them.

 

4. The Republic likely did not have more ships, in fact its probable that the Mandalorians had the greater numbers. They certainly did not outnumber them two to one.

 

Is this an example of Mandalorian prowess? Yes. But I'm afraid your accounting of the war is flawed.

Lol, the Essential Guide to Warfare contradicts quite a lot of sources... and it's still ambiguous.

 

The Republic were apathetic yes, but only because the planets the Mandalorians conquered were not originally allied with the Republic, and were not important, Strategy wise.

 

The republic fleet was destroyed pretty easily, and those are the battles we're talking about, it's often on ground that the republic made their offensives.

 

And Revan, Meetra and Alek single handedly turned the war, they're the definition of Be all, end all.

[Beniboybling]

Their fleet devastated the poorly lead fleets of the Republic in the early stages to the point that they had the Republic scared to death of an assault on Coruscant itself... I understand that the initial attacks benefitted greatly from surprise, but after Taris the republic was able to stabilize and they still got destroyed on multiple occasions.

 

Revan won by sacrificing planets and naval engagements to the superior Mandalorian forces and just overwhelmed them with superior Republic production/numbers/tactics to win the war while losing a lot of battles. (But in SE vs DS the SE has the better tacticians this time).

 

As for the Hammerhead cruiser, yes, you're correct though the Thranta and Hammerhead have similar armaments. If anything the Hammerhead strengthens my argument as it is even closer to the Interceptor's armaments.

In the early stages of the war the Mandalorians engaged in four separate offences on Republic territory, all but one ended in failure. They then went on to prevent an assault on Coruscant by defeating the Mandalorians at Ithor and Iridonia. The early stages of the war were crippling for the Republic yes, but the Republic held the line and beat them back on several fronts. It was not victory after victory for the Mandalorians until Revan arrived as many seem to believe.

 

But yes, you have a point, though I think we've covered naval engagements quite thoroughly already. So perhaps we should turn our attention to ground combat, both open warfare and strike team based.

[Beniboybling]

Lol, the Essential Guide to Warfare contradicts quite a lot of sources... and it's still ambiguous.

 

The Republic were apathetic yes, but only because the planets the Mandalorians conquered were not originally allied with the Republic, and were not important, Strategy wise.

 

The republic fleet was destroyed pretty easily, and those are the battles we're talking about, it's often on ground that the republic made their offensives.

 

And Revan, Meetra and Alek single handedly turned the war, they're the definition of Be all, end all.

Ha! So much for the EGTW 4ever!

 

Fact: Apathy is death. The Republic sat idly by while the Mandalorians prepared an assault on their territories when they could have ended the war there and then and saved countless lives. Muy importante.

 

See above. Again they defeated the Mandalorians on several fronts. And if the Mandalorians truly did defeat them so easily then Revan would never have been able to win the war, he is not Grand Admiral Thrawn.

 

Fangirl.

[Aurbere]

If we are going to move on to the ground war, I think we can all agree that the SE won't be able to consistently win in that area without taking out Geonosis.

[Beniboybling]

If we are going to move on to the ground war, I think we can all agree that the SE won't be able to consistently win in that area without taking out Geonosis.

On another totally unrelated note...

[ShadowMudkip]

If we are going to move on to the ground war, I think we can all agree that the SE won't be able to consistently win in that area without taking out Geonosis.

 

Depends on the type of ground war. If the SE adopts a hit and run strategy, the droid armies of the DS wont be able to respond to guerrilla type warfare. On the other hand, if you have a massive battlefield, the DS wins.

[Aurbere]

Depends on the type of ground war. If the SE adopts a hit and run strategy, the droid armies of the DS wont be able to respond to guerrilla type warfare. On the other hand, if you have a massive battlefield, the DS wins.

 

Guerilla tactics can only go so far. Especially when the enemy has a ridiculously high production rate. Losses for the SE are not as easily recuperated.

[StarSquirrel]

Guerilla tactics can only go so far. Especially when the enemy has a ridiculously high production rate. Losses for the SE are not as easily recuperated.

Agreed

 

I've made a case as to how Geonosis would be destroyed though. It would only take a few nukes to destroy the storage/transportation for the droids nearer to the surface (which Boba would quite easily be able to provide the coordinates of) from space, then squads of Mandalorians could drop in and target (or demolish themselves) the factories. The droids wouldn't have much to hit back with since their stockpiles of troops had been annihilated and their sensors would be scrambled temporarily by the nuke's EMP burst and the commandos would rip apart the remaining droid defence forces in the confined spaces of the tunnels where numbers give few advantages.

 

Also, Mandalorians with jet packs are far more maneuverable and can navigate the tunnels and caverns faster and strike harder than even republic commandos. They'd be in, plant the charges (even a nuke!), and get out quickly. The B1 droids on the ground would have no answer for this (that could be deployed quickly). Not to mention, if HK-01 is on Geonosis and doesn't get annihilated by the initial nuclear bombardment, the Mandalorians blowing up the factories will probably get him or his broadcasting equipment.

 

Also, if you look at planets like Vanquo and Taris, the Mandalorian dropships (and basilisk war droids) are fantastic at deploying troops extremely rapidly. The Cabure have carried on this tradition through the Vong war even being more coordinated than their Neo crusader ancestors. With Boba's leadership they'd be in and out.

 

If they don't plant explosives in the factories, the Mandalorians could still gun for the control center of the B1's and shut the entire army down. That is assuming it survives the initial bombardment.

 

Before Warren comes and tries to disregard the nuclear weapons argument, remember the SE knows the DS plans to annihilate living beings, so they'll view them like they did the Vong, with no mercy and the ends justify the means. Nukes will be used, Jaina was at times a very grey Jedi and a General, Tenel Ka is a Queen of Pirates and Assassins dedicated to defending her people (in this case the mandalorians), and Nek is a military officer who will use everything at his command to win.

 

Endgame: It is my opinion that the SE fleet will drive for Dac and capture the shipyards there, then go for Geonosis essentially crippling the DS's production. Bothawui's shipyards will then be attacked and Kamino will get bombarded to oblivion (Boba certain would enjoy that) Nar Shadda would be blockaded and slowly searched until G0-T0 is found once the rest of DS space is secured. Back in SE space, DS ships will raid supply lines and lay siege to the HK-50 factory on Telos IV preventing HK-50 reinforcements from reaching the battlefield unless the SE fleets can hit the DS's command ship. SE production out of Mandalore and Bilbringi will prevent DS incursions deeper into SE territory but will be required to build up before moving to Telos then later into DS territory. Dac will be able, though, to provide repairs and resupply the SE's frontline ships. Myrkr will likely fall or be abandoned but it'll be made costly for the DS to take if they try.

 

That said I expect G0-T0 will try to drag the war out while he and his assassin team tries to kill Tenel Ka. It will be here that Tenel Ka, Jaina, and her Mandalorian guardians will be ready and able to kill him.

Edited January 29, 2014 by StarSquirrel

[Aurbere]

I thought Nukes were banned.

[StarSquirrel]

I thought Nukes were banned.

Nuclear weapons aren't really superweapons by Star Wars standards, just big bombs, probably not even that big. Bioweapons etc. are not outlawed either. This isn't the 21st century people.

This is why...

[Aurbere]

This is why...

 

Ah, I forgot about that.

[StarSquirrel]

Ah, I forgot about that.

Yeah that was pretty early in the matchup so I understand lol.

 

It was kinda one of the main reasons I picked the Mando fleet so I like being able to use it

[Aurbere]

Yeah that was pretty early in the matchup so I understand lol.

 

It was kinda one of the main reasons I picked the Mando fleet so I like being able to use it

 

The use it! Nuke everything!

[Beniboybling]

Agreed

 

I've made a case as to how Geonosis would be destroyed though. It would only take a few nukes to destroy the storage/transportation for the droids nearer to the surface (which Boba would quite easily be able to provide the coordinates of) from space, then squads of Mandalorians could drop in and target (or demolish themselves) the factories. The droids wouldn't have much to hit back with since their stockpiles of troops had been annihilated and their sensors would be scrambled temporarily by the nuke's EMP burst and the commandos would rip apart the remaining droid defence forces in the confined spaces of the tunnels where numbers give few advantages.

 

Also, Mandalorians with jet packs are far more maneuverable and can navigate the tunnels and caverns faster and strike harder than even republic commandos. They'd be in, plant the charges (even a nuke!), and get out quickly. The B1 droids on the ground would have no answer for this (that could be deployed quickly). Not to mention, if HK-01 is on Geonosis and doesn't get annihilated by the initial nuclear bombardment, the Mandalorians blowing up the factories will probably get him or his broadcasting equipment.

 

Also, if you look at planets like Vanquo and Taris, the Mandalorian dropships (and basilisk war droids) are fantastic at deploying troops extremely rapidly. The Cabure have carried on this tradition through the Vong war even being more coordinated than their Neo crusader ancestors. With Boba's leadership they'd be in and out.

 

If they don't plant explosives in the factories, the Mandalorians could still gun for the control center of the B1's and shut the entire army down. That is assuming it survives the initial bombardment.

 

Before Warren comes and tries to disregard the nuclear weapons argument, remember the SE knows the DS plans to annihilate living beings, so they'll view them like they did the Vong, with no mercy and the ends justify the means. Nukes will be used, Jaina was at times a very grey Jedi and a General, Tenel Ka is a Queen of Pirates and Assassins dedicated to defending her people (in this case the mandalorians), and Nek is a military officer who will use everything at his command to win.

 

Endgame: It is my opinion that the SE fleet will drive for Dac and capture the shipyards there, then go for Geonosis essentially crippling the DS's production. Bothawui's shipyards will then be attacked and Kamino will get bombarded to oblivion (Boba certain would enjoy that) Nar Shadda would be blockaded and slowly searched until G0-T0 is found once the rest of DS space is secured. Back in SE space, DS ships will raid supply lines and lay siege to the HK-50 factory on Telos IV preventing HK-50 reinforcements from reaching the battlefield unless the SE fleets can hit the DS's command ship. SE production out of Mandalore and Bilbringi will prevent DS incursions deeper into SE territory but will be required to build up before moving to Telos then later into DS territory. Dac will be able, though, to provide repairs and resupply the SE's frontline ships. Myrkr will likely fall or be abandoned but it'll be made costly for the DS to take if they try.

 

That said I expect G0-T0 will try to drag the war out while he and his assassin team tries to kill Tenel Ka. It will be here that Tenel Ka, Jaina, and her Mandalorian guardians will be ready and able to kill him.

Some good points, but I'd highlight a few things here:

 

1. You should consider that the Mandalorian Fleets may be waylaid on route to Geonosis, considering G0-T0's various intelligence gather capabilities. Mining a hyperlane and placing a gravity well generator in the center who prove possibly crippling to a incoming fleet, and then they could well be totally destroyed amongst the confusion by a fleet of Black Sun vessels possessing superior numbers. In that way you may never reach Geonosis.

 

2. Geonosis may not have a planetary shield, but it does have shield generators protecting select factories which were strong enough to withstand orbital bombardment. Equipped with particle shields and they could probably withstand a nuclear missile, and then recycle before another hit. And if G0-T0 learns of the nuclear missiles, he may have anti-missile defense systems installed that can shoot them down.

 

3. If the missiles did strike the damage would be catastrophic, however Boba's strike team might not be all that effective considering that HK-01 could hack their droids and turn them against them. Which certainly wouldn't fare well if they were deep in the catacombs (which could be collapsed) of which Boba himself has little to know knowledge of.

 

4. Its unlikely HK-01 or the broadcasting equipment would be planetside. It probably wouldn't even be on Geonosis, which isn't even the capital world. More likely they'll a transmitter in orbit linked to a central droid computer.

 

Concerning endgame, its possible you could capture the Dac shipyards but again the above argument applies. Especially considering you are not in very close proximity. Though if you do capture them G0-T0 may use it as a means to sabotage and infiltrate your ships with assassins, spies and the like, tracking your movements across the galaxy.

 

We should also consider that Kamino has planetary shields also, and they had to ram a capital ship into it to destroy them and even then that wasn't enough to destroy the entire facility. You'll have no choice but to mount a ground invasion, which could prove difficult considering the isolated location and terror trooper facilities.

 

Slowly searching Nar Shaddaa also makes you vulnerable to infiltration, misdirection and opposition from local criminal entities. You might just find your troops on that planet are mysteriously silenced and your ships boarded by smugglers, pirates and the like - and more assassins and spies of course etc. etc.

 

And concerning the HK-50 factory, I doubt G0-T0 will be so indiscreet as to simply convert the droids and have them attack openly. Most likely he'll keep them dormant and allow HK-50 production to continue, perhaps even, with the help of his Exchange contacts, subverting shipments and forging records to effectively take them for his own. And of course those who are not taken will only act to increase G0-T0's web of intelligence.

 

I also suspect it is the Sol'yc Empire whose supply lines would be raided whereas the Droid Supremacy is in many ways very self sufficient and will likely transport cargo through more discreet means and via secret hyperlanes.

 

Altogether I feel while the Sol'yc Empire will likely be effectively pushing the invasion, with ever step they make another spy infiltrates their ranks, another saboteur sets a trap. And its only a matter of time before orders and given, triggers are pressed and chaos and confusion starts erupting amongst your forces, then G0-T0 strikes.

 

Just some food for though while Warren is absent.

[Warren-Stride]

Thanks Beni!

 

Also, Mandalorians with jet packs are far more maneuverable and can navigate the tunnels and caverns faster and strike harder than even republic commandos. They'd be in, plant the charges (even a nuke!), and get out quickly. The B1 droids on the ground would have no answer for this (that could be deployed quickly).

 

Alright, I think it's time to start talking about Droidekas.

 

The shielded Destroyer droids that sent Qui-gon Jinn and Obi-wan running scared.

 

Or the ones that surrounded Obi-wan and Anakin (and Padme) in the Geonosis Factories and what did the Jedi do?

 

Surrender.

 

The SE simply has no answer for them. If they know about the rolled grenade thing, and there's no reason why they would, they still would not even get close before they're gunned down. Especially if these droidekas are set up to guard key points in the factories and elsewhere. The presense of droidekas essentially negates the SE strategy of surgical strikes.

 

Before Warren comes and tries to disregard the nuclear weapons argument, remember the SE knows the DS plans to annihilate living beings, so they'll view them like they did the Vong, with no mercy and the ends justify the means. Nukes will be used, Jaina was at times a very grey Jedi and a General, Tenel Ka is a Queen of Pirates and Assassins dedicated to defending her people (in this case the mandalorians), and Nek is a military officer who will use everything at his command to win.

 

I don't know, I'm still if-y about two Jedi and a New Republic general committing MASS GENOCIDE on 100 BILLION geonosians. Something about that just strikes me wrong.

 

But say they do (or they try to). Any orbital bombardment the SE attempts will be met with backlash. I mean, come on, the SE has Telos. You know, the planet that was bombed into oblivion and is now rebuilding? Somehow I don't think the people of Telos will be very happy with Base Delta Zero tactics.

 

Heck, look at real life. Dropping nukes on two cities was met with disapproval from all sides of the war, even if it did end the fighting. Imagine if that was done to a planet of 100 billion people. I'm just going to take a guess here and say that the SE citizens would not be happy. Unhappiness leads to defection and lack of support for the government.

 

Especially if a DS operative/droid were to release video/photo proof of the SE's actions onto the HoloNet.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Thanks Beni!

 

 

 

Alright, I think it's time to start talking about Droidekas.

 

The shielded Destroyer droids that sent Qui-gon Jinn and Obi-wan running scared.

 

Or the ones that surrounded Obi-wan and Anakin (and Padme) in the Geonosis Factories and what did the Jedi do?

 

Surrender.

 

They(and Jango) surrounded Anakin only, Padme was confronted by Geonosians. Of course take into account that Anakin's saber was shot to ****, so he couldn't really fight them off(well defensive wise anyhow).

 

Plus just because Droidekas are able to make Jedi run because of repeating blasters and shields, doesn't mean a nice Ion grenade or thermal det won't take em out.

Edited January 29, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[Beniboybling]

Alright, I think it's time to start talking about Droidekas.

 

The shielded Destroyer droids that sent Qui-gon Jinn and Obi-wan running scared.

 

Or the ones that surrounded Obi-wan and Anakin (and Padme) in the Geonosis Factories and what did the Jedi do?

 

Surrender.

 

The SE simply has no answer for them. If they know about the rolled grenade thing, and there's no reason why they would, they still would not even get close before they're gunned down. Especially if these droidekas are set up to guard key points in the factories and elsewhere. The presense of droidekas essentially negates the SE strategy of surgical strikes.

I expect, being highly trained and intuitive soldiers, they'd work out the grenade trick fairly quickly. At the very least Boba Fett would be able to teach them.

 

But yes, your correct they are deadly however they can be destroyed through overwhelming firepower, in particular I doubt a Droideka would last long at all against a Canderous-assault tank armed with rapid fire mass driver cannons. A single flurry would be more than enough. The Mandalorians also have missile launchers launchers on their backs - and with those jetpacks simply leaping over them is a possibility.

I don't know, I'm still if-y about two Jedi and a New Republic general committing MASS GENOCIDE on 100 BILLION geonosians. Something about that just strikes me wrong.

 

But say they do (or they try to). Any orbital bombardment the SE attempts will be met with backlash. I mean, come on, the SE has Telos. You know, the planet that was bombed into oblivion and is now rebuilding? Somehow I don't think the people of Telos will be very happy with Base Delta Zero tactics.

 

Heck, look at real life. Dropping nukes on two cities was met with disapproval from all sides of the war, even if it did end the fighting. Imagine if that was done to a planet of 100 billion people. I'm just going to take a guess here and say that the SE citizens would not be happy. Unhappiness leads to defection and lack of support for the government.

 

Especially if a DS operative/droid were to release video/photo proof of the SE's actions onto the HoloNet.

But lets not forget that the Republic blew up an entire droid foundry on Geonosis without much remorse.

 

Of course, lacking in radiocative fallout.