Kaggath Tournament - Sol'yc Empire vs Droid Supremacy

[Selenial]

Reverse engineering.

 

But... why? There are loads of navies in this tournament that have had certain vessels fall into their hands before...

 

But it doesn't matter, Reverse engineering would take absolutely ages on a Starship of the Venators Size, and then production even longer, if the DS wants a naval advantage, spending time RE'ing old ships is not the way to go.

[Beniboybling]

That's hardly botlenecking, they didn't have any cover in the slightest, which is a crucial part to bottlenecking.

 

And of course, they knew they were going to die, just saving the Twi'leks

 

And they had gone weeks without supplies...

 

And had managed against thousands of battledroids before they finally died.

 

Point taken, I hope.

Bottleknecking involves forcing your enemy down a narrow passageway were they cannot apply the full strength of their numbers. One does not always have the luxury of good cover. All this is an example of is what happens when a small number of units go up against an army of battle droids funneling through a small passageway.

[Beniboybling]

But... why? There are loads of navies in this tournament that have had certain vessels fall into their hands before...

 

But it doesn't matter, Reverse engineering would take absolutely ages on a Starship of the Venators Size, and then production even longer, if the DS wants a naval advantage, spending time RE'ing old ships is not the way to go.

Perhaps, but that won't stop them producing the MC80s, Mon Cal vessels. Edited January 23, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Selenial]

Bottleknecking involves forcing your enemy down a narrow passageway were they cannot apply the full strength of their numbers. One does not always have the luxury of good cover. All this is an example of is what happens when a small number of units go up against an army of battle droids funneling through a small passageway.

 

Ok, it's bottlenecking.. But not Effective bottlenecking.

 

The first part of the video sort of shows it, only way the droids got through was with Bombers and Tanks...

 

Although, I have to laugh that I literally only just noticed that the Jedi master's name is "Ima-Gun Dai"

 

Roflmao Filoni

[Selenial]

Perhaps, but that won't stop them producing the MC80s, Mon Cal vessels.

 

That put something else in my mind, Wouldn't Dac be a good planet to attack? The Mon Cala have shown themselves very willing to fight for freedom, and I doubt they'd enjoy being run by droids/crime bosses... They're pretty good warriors too, and Warren wouldn't have the forces to deal with them, as no Aqua droids and stuff.

 

Although, If Warren wants to produce ships to help with the Naval Advantage, the Gap would close as I'd say the Empire, in Bilbringi and Mandalore, have more powerful Shipyards... Meaning that they'd be able to keep up With Warren, or even eventually out produce her.

[Beniboybling]

Although, I have to laugh that I literally only just noticed that the Jedi master's name is "Ima-Gun Dai"

Lol what? Its Ima-Gun Di...

 

EDIT: Oh wait, I'm gonna die. Lol.

Edited January 24, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Aurbere]

Although, I have to laugh that I literally only just noticed that the Jedi master's name is "Ima-Gun Dai"

 

Roflmao Filoni

 

You only just found out?

[StarSquirrel]

Speaking of space superiority, what is the Manalorian Navy's biggest ship and what is its armament?

 

The Kandosii-type Dreadnought is probably the largest ship at 1.3km long, 42 gun emplacements (mostly medium double turrets), 12 superheavy missile launchers with 120 missiles, 128 fighter complement (not including troop transports and basilisk war droids) and can carry a force of 30,000 troops.

 

They also used a large number of Kyramud-type Battleships (which is about 75% as powerful as the Kandosii in armaments but has smaller carrying complements) and Mandalmotors has the ability to produce Keldabe-class Battleships armed with Mass Driver cannons.

 

For frigates the primary ship was the Jehavey'ir-type Assault Ship and Mandalmotors provides the ability to build Crusader-class Corvettes

Edited January 24, 2014 by StarSquirrel

[Selenial]

You only just found out?

 

I knew it was Dai, never sought to look into it more, thought I'd already understood the name joke..

Seems there was more.

[Warren-Stride]

Let's talk about

 

"Naval Superiority"

 

Sol'yc Empire: 90 ships

Droid Supremacy: 200 ships

 

(For the sake of these calculations, I'm counting "ships" as something bigger than a starfighter)

 

Sol'yc Empire (Mandalorian Navy)

Flagship: Kandosii-type Dreadnought

Capital Ships: Kyramud-type Battleships & Keldabe-class Battleships

Frigates: Jehavey'ir-type Assault Ship

Support Ships: Crusader-class Corvettes

 

Droid Supremacy (Black Sun Navy)

Flagship: MC80 Liberty type Star Cruiser

Capital Ships: Venator-class Star Destroyer

Frigates: Interceptor-class frigate

Support Ships: Gozanti Cruiser

 

To properly determine the make-up of each faction's standing force, I'm using these measurements

 

Flagship: 1% of total force

Capital Ships: 10% of total force

Frigates: 30% of total force

Support Ships: 59% of total force

 

With those measurements....

 

Sol'yc Empire (Mandalorian Navy)

Flagship: 1

Capital Ships: 9

Frigates: 27

Support Ships: 53

 

Droid Supremacy (Black Sun Navy)

Flagship: 2

Capital Ships: 20

Frigates: 60

Support Ships: 118

 

So let's compare:

 

Flagships

 

Kandosii-type Dreadnought

 

30 turbolasers

12 laser cannons

12 missile launchers

Class 2 Hyperdrive

 

MC80 Liberty type Star Cruiser

 

48 turbolasers

20 ion cannons

Advanced Shields

Class 1 Hyperdrive

 

 

Total Firepower Calculation for Flagships

 

Sol'yc Empire

30 turbolasers

12 laser cannons

12 missile launchers

 

Droid Supremacy

96 turbolasers

40 ion cannons

 

Capital Ships

 

(Sol'yc Empire)

 

Kyramud-type battleship

 

25 turbolasers

12 ion cannons

10 missile launchers

Class 2 Hyperdrive

 

Keldabe-class battleship

 

5 turbolasers

3 ion cannons

1 mass driver

1 shield leacher

Class 2 Hyperdrive

 

(Droid Supremacy)

 

Venator-class Star Destroyer

 

18 turbolasers

52 laser cannons

4 missile launchers

Class 1 Hyperdrive

 

Total Firepower Calculations for Capital Ships

 

Sol'yc Empire (6 Kyramud-type battleships and 3 Keldabe-class battleships)

165 turbolasers

3 mass drivers

3 shield leaches

81 ion cannons

60 missile launchers

 

Droid Supremacy

360 turbolasers

1040 laser cannons

80 missile launchers

 

Frigates

 

Jehavey'ir-type assault ship

 

5 turbolasers

3 ion cannons

6 missile launchers

Class 2 Hyperdrive

 

Interceptor-class Frigate

 

6 turbolasers

3 missile launchers

 

Total Firepower Frigate Calculations

 

Sol'yc Empire

135 turbolasers

81 ion cannons

162 missile launchers

 

Droid Supremacy

360 turbolasers

180 missile launchers

 

Support Ships

 

Crusader-class corvette

 

12 laser cannons

 

Gonzati Cruiser

 

4 laser cannons

1 missile launcher

 

Total Firepower Calculations for Support Ships

 

Sol'yc Empire

636 laser cannons

 

Droid Supremacy

472 laser cannons

118 missile launchers

 

 

Grand Total Firepower of each Navy

 

Soly'c Empire

330 turbolasers

648 laser cannons

234 missile launchers

162 ion cannons

3 mass drivers

3 shield leachers

 

Droid Supremacy

816 turbolasers

1512 laser cannons

378 missile launchers

40 ion cannons

 

 

To make the comparison clear, the Droid Supremacy has

 

242% more turbolasers

233% more laser cannons

160% more missile launchers

 

than the Sol'yc Empire

 

 

In conclusion, the Droid Supremacy is anything BUT outmatched in space, once you look at the numbers. Could you ignore this? Sure. Could you claim I was biased? Go ahead. But I encourage those who doubt to do the math yourselves, I'm not lying.

 

Oh, and on account of the "Universal technology rule" or whatever that is, all of the ships listed above literally match up to how advanced they were for their time, so that shouldn't matter. And before SE ships get a giant boost to turbolaser numbers for no apparent reason, look at the Keldabe-class battleship. Even though it existed during the time that the Black Sun navy existed, it still had much fewer weapons implacements than other ships. So it is possible for ships in that era to have fewer armaments.

 

Also, I added in the Hyperdrive levels to a few of these to show that DS ships are simply faster than SE ships. (most DS ships have Class 1 hyperdrives while most SE have Class 2 Hyperdrives) Which will be important for making offensives or defending.

Edited January 24, 2014 by Warren-Stride

[tunewalker]

"To properly determine the make-up of each faction's standing force, I'm using these measurements

 

Flagship: 1% of total force

Capital Ships: 10% of total force

Frigates: 30% of total force

Support Ships: 59% of total force"

 

 

 

This is your GIANT error. Everything hinges on this and its where you lose it big time. One of the things that was talked about in your first match and is relevant now is that as it was a criminal orginization your ships would largly be made up of Frigates and support ships with very few capital ships. The SE's on the other hand would be the exact opposite with most of their fire power coming from capital ships. You cant blanket say both Navies are made up of the same average across the board when the 2 Navies were designed with different purposes in mind. Because of this it throughs all the rest of your calculations out the window into near complete uselessness.

 

While it was nice to see all of it, because of the above all of that information is worthless. Its not that simple.

[Selenial]

On top of what Tunewalker said, I'm afraid you do not have Star Destroyers (Mon Cala Cruisers) either, for the start.

 

It was said on average KDY produce 2.6 capital ships per day, but that doesn't mean they can produce 18 in a week, it means more along the lines of 480 per 6 months, because they did it on a

 

Put A on 1

Put A on 2

Put A on 3

Put B on 1

 

Basis, not building an entire cruiser, then building the next one, then the one after that... It took 6 months to complete one batch of cruisers (Apparently, A Mon Cala cruiser took as long to build as an executor, and that was 6 months) meaning you're at a major disadvantage for quite some time.

 

And if the SE can take out Mon Calamari before you manage to produce said vessels...

 

 

Now. You could of course go for the short term option, PRODUCE NAO type thing, but you're going to have trouble convincing the Mon Calamari to do anything for you anyway, let alone shoving them all into ship building like slaves.

 

They held pride in their ships, wanted them all to be unique...

 

Which is another thing, I'd love to see a droid try pilot or command Mon Calamari Vessels, seeing as they're all completely unique and independent, even Rebels had trouble with them.

Edited January 24, 2014 by Selenial

[Selenial]

Same above for Venators.

 

RE, New crews working with a never before seen Vessel, that'll take even longer.

 

[Aurbere]

It should be noted that MC80 cruisers were designed for Mon Calamarian crews until the New Republic started building dedicated warships.

[Warren-Stride]

On top of what Tunewalker said, I'm afraid you do not have Star Destroyers (Mon Cala Cruisers) either, for the start.

 

Yes, the Droid Supremacy does. MC80s were part of the Black Sun Navy. So even without building more from Mon Calamari, the DS has some to start with. Same for Venators.

Edited January 24, 2014 by Warren-Stride

[Selenial]

Yes, the Droid Supremacy does. MC80s were part of the Black Sun Navy. So even without building more from Mon Calamari, the DS has some to start with. Same for Venators.

 

With the fleets scaled down... You have 1 of each.

[StarSquirrel]

Yeah Tune is entirely correct. Those measurements are horribly skewed. Its been said from the beginning that the SE has more of the big ships and the DS has a lot of smaller ships. What you little chart fails to take into account on top of this is that Mando ships are armored with beskar and designed to fight smaller ships (ie Thranta-class corvettes and fighter wings.)

 

I actually stopped in to tell ya'll I'll be in the mountains for the weekend so I probably wont be back on till Sunday night or Mondayish. Have fun and if someone wants to sep up for me I'd be indebted to them.

Edited January 24, 2014 by StarSquirrel

[tunewalker]

Yeah Tune is entirely correct. Those measurements are horribly skewed. Its been said from the beginning that the SE has more of the big ships and the DS has a lot of smaller ships. What you little chart fails to take into account on top of this is that Mando ships are armored with beskar and designed to fight smaller ships (ie Thranta-class corvettes and fighter wings.)

 

I actually stopped in to tell ya'll I'll be in the mountains for the weekend so I probably wont be back on till Sunday night or Mondayish. Have fun and if someone wants to sep up for me I'd be indebted to them.

 

I think Sel has you covered and have fun Squirl. I will step in on any arguement I feel needs adressing as i always have .

[Selenial]

Yeah Tune is entirely correct. Those measurements are horribly skewed. Its been said from the beginning that the SE has more of the big ships and the DS has a lot of smaller ships. What you little chart fails to take into account on top of this is that Mando ships are armored with beskar and designed to fight smaller ships (ie Thranta-class corvettes and fighter wings.)

 

That's a good point, forgot about that.

 

You're going to need serious firepower to get through Mandalorian Iron

[Warren-Stride]

One of the things that was talked about in your first match and is relevant now is that as it was a criminal organization your ships would largely be made up of Frigates and support ships with very few capital ships.

 

Agreed. Which is why 89% of the Black Sun Navy is frigates or support in my calculations.

 

The SE's on the other hand would be the exact opposite with most of their fire power coming from capital ships. You cant blanket say both Navies are made up of the same average across the board when the 2 Navies were designed with different purposes in mind. Because of this it throws all the rest of your calculations out the window into near complete uselessness.

 

I'm a little bit confused, because I am almost dead positive this is how all navies work.

 

In RL, for example, an aircraft carrier could be considered a capital ship. Then, each aircraft carrier could be supported by three destroyers, and have a large number of smaller ships such as PT boats as support.

 

It simply does not make sense to have a disproportionate number of capital ships without proper support from frigates or smaller ships. That's not how navies work.

 

Look at the Imperial Navy. For example, Thrawn's Fleet. In this fleet, built with the same intention as the Mandalorian Navy, there are 2 frigates for every capital ship, and 4 support craft for every capital ship. So no, the "majority" of a fleet like that would not be capital ships.

 

In fact, in the Thrawn's fleet example, there are 39 ships total. 22 support. 5 capital. And 12 frigate.

 

That means that Thrawn's fleet is:

 

12% Capital Ships

30% Frigates

56% Support Ships

 

Sound familiar?

 

That's almost exactly the estimates of ship numbers I gave to the Mandalorian Navy.

Edited January 24, 2014 by Warren-Stride

[Warren-Stride]

What you little chart fails to take into account on top of this is that Mando ships are armored with beskar and designed to fight smaller ships (ie Thranta-class corvettes and fighter wings).

 

Actually, none of the ships that you have listed as being part of the Mandalorian Navy have Beskar armoring. There is no mention of it on any of their Wookieepedia pages.

 

In fact, the only one that does mention its hull type is the flagship, the Kandosii-type Dreadnaught. And its hull is made of "deck plating by Byblos Drive Yards". Not a planet with Beskar in its supply. And "deck plating" hardly sounds like Beskar. Additionally, the other ships in the Mandalorian Navy have similar designs and hulls, based on appearance, so we can assume they have similar "deck plating", not Beskar.

 

Considering that Mandalorian Neo-crusaders troops didn't even wear Beskar armor, outfitting entire ships with the stuff seems like it would be impractical.

 

Also, just because a ship or navy has defeated "smaller ships" in the past, that's not to say they were "designed" to destroy them. I'm not sure where you're getting that notion from.

[tunewalker]

Agreed. Which is why 89% of the Black Sun Navy is frigates or support in my calculations.

 

 

 

I'm a little bit confused, because I am almost dead positive this is how all navies work.

 

In RL, for example, an aircraft carrier could be considered a capital ship. Then, each aircraft carrier could be supported by three destroyers, and have a large number of smaller ships such as PT boats as support.

 

It simply does not make sense to have a disproportionate number of capital ships without proper support from frigates or smaller ships. That's not how navies work.

 

Look at the Imperial Navy. For example, Thrawn's Fleet. In this fleet, built with the same intention as the Mandalorian Navy, there are 2 frigates for every capital ship, and 4 support craft for every capital ship. So no, the "majority" of a fleet like that would not be capital ships.

 

In fact, in the Thrawn's fleet example, there are 39 ships total. 22 support. 5 capital. And 12 frigate.

 

That means that Thrawn's fleet is:

 

12% Capital Ships

30% Frigates

56% Support Ships

 

Sound familiar?

 

That's almost exactly the estimates of ship numbers I gave to the Mandalorian Navy.

 

OK let me rephrase cus I dont think I was understood. Yours likely has a PROPORTIONATELY larger number of Support and Frigate type ships with a smaller number of Capital ships (maybe 5% capital ships not the 11% you gave yourself) as yours was a Navy controlled by a Criminal Orginization that was not built for war, but built for pirating and smuggling.

 

The SE's on the Other hand would proportionately have a larger Warship quotient So maybe 15% capital ships 30% frigates 55% support kind of thing. Thats all I am saying here. the numbers have to take into acount the different proportions for the difference in Navy type and what each navy had access to.

[Silenceo]

I also believe that the calculations including the Kedlabe Battleship are 100% flawed.

 

What it seems like you did was just went to the Wiki and took their stated weapons, but since this ship is only featured in EaW:FoC, it only has its in-game stats. However, it is said to compete with a Imperial Star Destroyer MK-I, which has significantly MORE weaponry. The downside of this is that we still do not have an exact number, but we can at least have an estimate *and cant forget that mass drives IGNORE SHIELDS, so these pirate ships that rely on speed and minor shields, will be torn apart so fast by those*

 

for the Imperial MK-I: Total 145

Dual heavy turbolaser turrets (6)[1]

Dual heavy ion cannon turrets (2)[1]

Quad heavy turbolasers (2)[1]

Triple medium turbolasers (3)[1]

Medium turbolasers (2)[1]

Taim & Bak XX-9 heavy turbolasers (60)[1]

Borstel NK-7 ion cannons (60)

Phylon Q7 tractor beam projectors (10)

 

for the Keldabe Battleship: Total 13

Turbolaser batteries (5)[1]

Heavy Ion cannon batteries (3)[1]

Mass driver missile launchers (1)[1]

Shield leecher weapon (1)

Tractor beam[1]

 

On paper, it looks like the Keldabe is HEAVILY out classed, but taking into account the fact that the Keldabe's armament is only due to game mechanics, if it was scaled to match its description as competing with a Imperial MK-I, its weaponry would increase likely 10 fold.

Edited January 24, 2014 by Silenceo

[Warren-Stride]

I also believe that the calculations including the Kedlabe Battleship are 100% flawed.

 

The notion that they can compete with Star Destroys is also due to in-game mechanics. The source of the claim that they can compete with Star Destroyers is from Star Wars: Empire at War: Forces of Corruption. So if you discount their weaponry stats provided by that game, you also discount the fact that they can compete with Star Destroyers.

[Silenceo]

The notion that they can compete with Star Destroys is also due to in-game mechanics. The source of the claim that they can compete with Star Destroyers is from Star Wars: Empire at War: Forces of Corruption. So if you discount their weaponry stats provided by that game, you also discount the fact that they can compete with Star Destroyers.

 

That may be so, but they are still a Capital class ship, and if i recall correctly, Imperial MK-I in the game had almost the same armaments. Considering that it is its only source of information, it is the most important piece of information which means that no capital ship has only 13 batteries. All these ships were scaled down for *simplicity*. If it can take on a MK-I face to face, which is implied by the lore, and the MK-I has listed stats for outside the game, then we have a point to reference, though it likely is not as deadly as a MK-I due to how its guns are all aligned in a circular pattern instead of a pointed and focused one. It however is still in the same "league" as the MK-I.