Advanced Strike Fighter Pilots (Pike/Quell): Are Ion Missiles Worth it?

[xyrmagus]

I've tricked out my Pike with pretty much every component maxed. The only major one left unmaxed is my second missile. Cluster was maxed first because they are amazing in dogfights, obviously, but I struggle with which to use as my other option. For a while, I've been using proton torpedo's thinking the "shield/armor" bypass is just too good to pass... but the narrow scope and long lock-on, plus incredibly slow travel time, means I really only hit bad players or greedy gunships with them. Sure, they are handy for killing turrets, but that's easy enough to do with just blasters.

 

So then I started looking at Concussion Missiles vs Ion Missiles, and just looking at the stats and trees, and I can't help but not find the point of Ion Missiles. Sure they are supposed to hit hard versus shields, but according to the description they do virtually no damage to the hull. With a 12s reload, and pretty much the same slowing effect and WORSE engine drain than the final tier of concussion I can't help but wonder why bother with Ion Missiles when Concussion does pretty much the same thing?

Edited January 7, 2014 by xyrmagus
Star --> Strike in title

[Armonddd]

The bigger problem is, the best that missiles can do is still far worse than the best that lasers can do, since there's so many ways to dodge missiles (and, more importantly, people are actually... learning to use them).

 

If people on your server don't know how to dodge missiles, concussion and proton will serve you well. If they do, you'll want cluster and... the other slot just sits around sucking its thumb, in my experience.

 

Taken to its logical conclusion, the Pike and Quell are inferior to the other strike fighters. And then when you consider that the other strike fighters don't get as good lasers as the Flashfire/Sting, and don't get Blaster Overcharge or Booster Recharge or Distortion Field...

 

Well, I don't play my Strike much anymore.

[Kain_Turinbar]

Interesting to see an opinion that the Pike is the worst ship in the game.

 

My play has improved dramatically since unlocking the Pike and getting some of the better upgrades for my 3 weapons.

 

I rely mostly on missiles to kill my opponents and almost always have full power shifted to shields.

Edited January 7, 2014 by Kain_Turinbar

[Nemarus]

The biggest problem about Ion Missiles is not their effects or damage, it's that they have short range (5000m) and a medium lock-on time (3 seconds). Compare this to the Cluster Missile (short range but short lock-on) or Concussion Missile (medium range, medium lock-on) or Proton Torpedo (long range, long lock-on). The Ion Missile is the one whose range does not match its lock-on time (along with the Sabotage Probe, but that's a whole different animal).

 

It's very hard to get a 3-second lock completed when under 5000m from the target.

 

Personally, with my Pike, I use Concussion and Cluster Missiles. For my primary weapon, I have Heavy Lasers maxed out for range (6900m). This means that I can engage foes with Lasers + Concussion Missiles at 5000-6500m, but then when enemies get in closer than 5000m, I switch to Clusters.

 

Also, since I have Concussion Missiles, I can opt to upgrade Clusters for increased damage at the cost of lower ammo capacity.

 

Personally, I feel like the Rycer/StarGuard is the ship whose #1 ability is without a purpose. I use Heavy Lasers primarily because of their superior accuracy, extreme range, shield-piercing, and high-damage-per-shot. The only other laser I'd ever really want to switch to would be Burst Laser Cannons for use in close-orbiting satellite battles. But for some reason, the Rycer/StarGuard, which is supposed to be the laser-specialist that can engage foes at any range, doesn't have Burst Laser Cannons... and for some stranger reason, Scouts and Gunships do.

Edited January 7, 2014 by Nemarus

[stabberwock]

I've tricked out my Pike with pretty much every component maxed. The only major one left unmaxed is my second missile. Cluster was maxed first because they are amazing in dogfights, obviously, but I struggle with which to use as my other option. For a while, I've been using proton torpedo's thinking the "shield/armor" bypass is just too good to pass... but the narrow scope and long lock-on, plus incredibly slow travel time, means I really only hit bad players or greedy gunships with them. Sure, they are handy for killing turrets, but that's easy enough to do with just blasters.

 

So then I started looking at Concussion Missiles vs Ion Missiles, and just looking at the stats and trees, and I can't help but not find the point of Ion Missiles. Sure they are supposed to hit hard versus shields, but according to the description they do virtually no damage to the hull. With a 12s reload, and pretty much the same slowing effect and WORSE engine drain than the final tier of concussion I can't help but wonder why bother with Ion Missiles when Concussion does pretty much the same thing?

 

I was in the same boat as you for a bit, couldn't figure out what to do. The protons, when they hit, are awesome, but is the long lock, small window worth it? And if it isn't why bother having two sets of missiles at all? Just faceroll your blaster overcharge to 30k.

 

Here's where I'm at with it. The pike is really good at putting pressure on enemies at different ranges. For gunships who like to abuse barrel roll to full stop, they are going to eat a proton because barrel is straight, and wont carry them out of range (most of the time.) They must respond to your lock, either by burning an engine move or eating the proton. Either way you have the upper hand. If you spec barrel roll to match their own burn following the opener you can close quickly. It really is the upgraded flight speed and range that make them of any use. For the other missiles by the time you get to 7k you are a second or two away from clusters anyway.

 

Another thing worth mentioning is that Pike's kill a lot of people who aren't looking at them from 10-11k away. By that I mean, someone engaged in a dogfight may mistake the lock on for the person they are fighting and not pay attention. I know gunships can also kill from extended range, but they actively aiming. You are lock-ing on, then firing and going back to defending your sat or whatever else you were doing. Usually good for one or two kills per match.

 

Bottom line is this: you bring pressure to the table, you can make people burn cooldowns before they want to, take them out of their strafing runs, teamwork kind of thing. If you can live with that kind of contribution (and 10 lolassists) per game, then that's the way to go.

 

Just my thoughts.

[Nemarus]

I was in the same boat as you for a bit, couldn't figure out what to do. The protons, when they hit, are awesome, but is the long lock, small window worth it? And if it isn't why bother having two sets of missiles at all? Just faceroll your blaster overcharge to 30k.

 

Here's where I'm at with it. The pike is really good at putting pressure on enemies at different ranges. For gunships who like to abuse barrel roll to full stop, they are going to eat a proton because barrel is straight, and wont carry them out of range (most of the time.) They must respond to your lock, either by burning an engine move or eating the proton. Either way you have the upper hand. If you spec barrel roll to match their own burn following the opener you can close quickly. It really is the upgraded flight speed and range that make them of any use. For the other missiles by the time you get to 7k you are a second or two away from clusters anyway.

 

Another thing worth mentioning is that Pike's kill a lot of people who aren't looking at them from 10-11k away. By that I mean, someone engaged in a dogfight may mistake the lock on for the person they are fighting and not pay attention. I know gunships can also kill from extended range, but they actively aiming. You are lock-ing on, then firing and going back to defending your sat or whatever else you were doing. Usually good for one or two kills per match.

 

Bottom line is this: you bring pressure to the table, you can make people burn cooldowns before they want to, take them out of their strafing runs, teamwork kind of thing. If you can live with that kind of contribution (and 10 lolassists) per game, then that's the way to go.

 

Just my thoughts.

 

Upgraded Barrel Roll can be used every six seconds. All anyone has to do to avoid a Proton Torpedo is Barrel Roll at some point during the torpedo's locking time (4 seconds) or in the intervening seconds that the launched torpedo travels.

 

So if I Barrel Roll, and then you immediately begin locking on to me with torpedo from long range, I can likely Barrel Roll again before the torpedo hits me.

 

The only target torpedoes are really good against are other Pike's/Quell's who opt for Engine-to-Shield Transfer instead of an engine evasion ability.

[Kain_Turinbar]

I was in the same boat as you for a bit, couldn't figure out what to do. The protons, when they hit, are awesome, but is the long lock, small window worth it? And if it isn't why bother having two sets of missiles at all? Just faceroll your blaster overcharge to 30k.

 

Here's where I'm at with it. The pike is really good at putting pressure on enemies at different ranges. For gunships who like to abuse barrel roll to full stop, they are going to eat a proton because barrel is straight, and wont carry them out of range (most of the time.) They must respond to your lock, either by burning an engine move or eating the proton. Either way you have the upper hand. If you spec barrel roll to match their own burn following the opener you can close quickly. It really is the upgraded flight speed and range that make them of any use. For the other missiles by the time you get to 7k you are a second or two away from clusters anyway.

 

Another thing worth mentioning is that Pike's kill a lot of people who aren't looking at them from 10-11k away. By that I mean, someone engaged in a dogfight may mistake the lock on for the person they are fighting and not pay attention. I know gunships can also kill from extended range, but they actively aiming. You are lock-ing on, then firing and going back to defending your sat or whatever else you were doing. Usually good for one or two kills per match.

 

Bottom line is this: you bring pressure to the table, you can make people burn cooldowns before they want to, take them out of their strafing runs, teamwork kind of thing. If you can live with that kind of contribution (and 10 lolassists) per game, then that's the way to go.

 

Just my thoughts.

 

This is usually what I do with my Pike, very solid examples. When the defenders see the incoming attackers the scouts boost out to engage them and I start lining them up for locks with Protons while they're busy with the scouts. At medium range I switch to concussions and try to finish them and do the same if I head-on charge a gunship that insists on playing chicken instead of running. I can usually withstand the initial hit with boosted shields or hopefully they were aiming at something near the sat.

[Ramalina]

Upgraded Barrel Roll can be used every six seconds.

 

What upgrade are you using? On my ships the upgrade cuts the cooldown by 5 seconds, and the baseline cooldown is more than 11 seconds.

 

Are you talking about the combo of an upgraded engine maneuver and upgraded distortion field?

 

On the thread topic, for strike fighters both the ion cannons and the ion missiles are a bit of a mystery. They serve to strip a ship of its shields after you have already blown it up with your other weapons.

 

If you have a really good wingman, you can fly in formation where one uses ion weapons to strip shields and the other uses armor piercing and/or hull damage upgraded weapons to get the kill.

 

It's also possible that there are PvE elements planned for future battlefields that are very vulnerable to ion weapons in the same way that turrets are weak against armor piercing/hull damage weapons. We'll know more in a month or two.

 

For right now, ion missiles are probably not worth it.

[stabberwock]

Upgraded Barrel Roll can be used every six seconds. All anyone has to do to avoid a Proton Torpedo is Barrel Roll at some point during the torpedo's locking time (4 seconds) or in the intervening seconds that the launched torpedo travels.

 

So if I Barrel Roll, and then you immediately begin locking on to me with torpedo from long range, I can likely Barrel Roll again before the torpedo hits me.

 

The only target torpedoes are really good against are other Pike's/Quell's who opt for Engine-to-Shield Transfer instead of an engine evasion ability.

 

But you aren't barrel rolling away, that's the point of my post. You are short stopping your barrel roll to line up your pursuer for a rail gun shot. Then you eat the torp.

 

I disagree with your comment about proton viability against pike/quell players based on my own experiences. I can name the 3 players on my server who don't fly gunships or flashfire/stings. I wouldn't even know what to do if I saw one.

[Lendul]

To answer the orginal question. I fly a mastered Pike. Concussion in general has more postives than the Ion. Concussion does more damage, has a shorter lock on time, greater range and has the same deadly slow once fully upgraded.

[Kuciwalker]

But you aren't barrel rolling away, that's the point of my post. You are short stopping your barrel roll to line up your pursuer for a rail gun shot. Then you eat the torp.

 

There is essentially no circumstance in which:

 

1. A fighter flying towards me is acquiring a missile lock

2. I am facing that fighter

3. I use barrel roll to break the lock

4. I stop my barrel roll short of the target to charge of a railgun shot at it

 

1 implies that the fighter is within 11.5km of me, maximum.

2 implies that I currently have the ability to charge of a railgun shot at the target

3 implies that I go forward by at least 5-10km (I've honestly never measured the precise distance barrel roll carries you before you can interrupt it by entering snipe mode, but those numbers are my recollection).

 

If we assume I managed to avoid overshooting the fighter, this puts me within about 5km. If I'm within 5km of a ship I don't line up a railgun shot, I just dive in and use burst lasers. I will boost past you before you manage to reacquire your torpedo lock.

 

But even more likely is I don't even do 3; I keep charging up my shot (releasing it once charged) and wait for you to actually LAUNCH YOUR TORPEDO. Only after you've actually committed to firing do I use BR. If you get close enough that I might not be able to react in time, then my BR is going to push me way past you anyway.

[xyrmagus]

To answer the orginal question. I fly a mastered Pike. Concussion in general has more postives than the Ion. Concussion does more damage, has a shorter lock on time, greater range and has the same deadly slow once fully upgraded.

 

Do you feel concussion is stronger overall than proton, as well?

[Lendul]

Do you feel concussion is stronger overall than proton, as well?

For what I do , yes. I do not use my Pike as a missile boat though. I use my Pike to flush out orbiting scouts and to hunt gunships.

 

This is the loadout I use.

 

http://dulfy.net/2013/11/16/swtor-galactic-starfighter/?link=dGEAAAESAgQFBgwC7AP0AuwC4AHgAOAB4ALgAOA=

Edited January 8, 2014 by Lendul

[Armonddd]

Do you feel concussion is stronger overall than proton, as well?

 

A fully upgraded concussion missile does around 350 hull damage on hit, without the long lock-on time or the ridiculously small targeting reticule. I like it.

[Brewski]

The Pike's/Quell's I worry about are the one's using Protons and Clusters. Protons because they can use them on me from a distance while I am otherwise engaged in dogfighting or hunting another player, and clusters because they can be a deadly enhancement to blaster damage in a close in fight.

 

I plan to use that combo when I get around to upgrading mine, so that would be my recommendation.

[Svarthrafn]

The Pike's/Quell's I worry about are the one's using Protons and Clusters. Protons because they can use them on me from a distance while I am otherwise engaged in dogfighting or hunting another player, and clusters because they can be a deadly enhancement to blaster damage in a close in fight.

 

I plan to use that combo when I get around to upgrading mine, so that would be my recommendation.

 

Guilty!

 

This loadout is brutally effective. For all the talk I hear about it being impossible to lock protons on "good" pilots, I sure do blow a lot of them up. Protip: Protons are for long range, not dogfights.

Edited January 8, 2014 by Svarthrafn

[Luneward]

To go back to the original question... no I don't think there is a point to Ion missile. If it had a range between concussion/proton, or a much shorter lockon time it might work better. As it stands, by the time you get a successful lock, you've likely blasted the target's shields off anyway at which point you should have been using concussions. The star guard handles this much better since you can shoot shields off with ion blasters while you're locking your missile.

[Itkovian]

Guilty!

 

This loadout is brutally effective. For all the talk I hear about it being impossible to lock protons on "good" pilots, I sure do blow a lot of them up. Protip: Protons are for long range, not dogfights.

 

I find protorps to be great at three things:

 

- Shooting down inexperienced pilots.

- Shooting down experienced pilots who just used their engine CD, or don't expect me to be right on top of them as I launch (and yes, that occurs fairly frequently).

- Forcing pilots to go defensive from afar and blow their CD right in time for me to cluster them and nail them as I get in range. Bonus if they do it before I actually fire.

 

That said, with the game as it stands now, the fact is that protorps are more like a neat "ability" rather than a core combat ability. You can just about forget using them when trying to defend or cap a satellite, and for general dogfighting I imagine clusters/concussions are a better combination.

 

However, the advent of new game types and roles will hopefully make proton torpedoes more useful. Bombers should hopefully be easier to torp, while a game types that takes the action into open space would also help, or one where the goal is to blow up hardened targets (giving bombers and protorp-wielding strikes a proper torpedo target other than turrets).

 

Indeed, the same could be said of strike fighters as a whole: right now they're clearly sub-obtimal (but fun!), and new gameplay may make their well-rounded nature more useful. Here's hoping!

[Svarthrafn]

I find protorps to be great at three things:

 

- Shooting down inexperienced pilots.

- Shooting down experienced pilots who just used their engine CD, or don't expect me to be right on top of them as I launch (and yes, that occurs fairly frequently).

- Forcing pilots to go defensive from afar and blow their CD right in time for me to cluster them and nail them as I get in range. Bonus if they do it before I actually fire.

 

 

Your experience is completely different from mine. For me, protons are the best option for harassing and taking out the "good" pilots on our server. Different playstyles I guess, as I don't use my guns all that frequently. Not having to worry about keeping my crosshairs on the aiming reticle, along with turning thrusters, makes it a lot easier to keep the target in the proton firing arc.

[Nemarus]

Your experience is completely different from mine. For me, protons are the best option for harassing and taking out the "good" pilots on our server. Different playstyles I guess, as I don't use my guns all that frequently. Not having to worry about keeping my crosshairs on the aiming reticle, along with turning thrusters, makes it a lot easier to keep the target in the proton firing arc.

 

Assuming you're Hfran, the only time you were taking me out with PT's was when I was flying my Pike ... which has Engine-to-Shield transfer instead of an evasive ability. Had I had an evasive ability, I don't think a single torpedo would've hit.

 

In fact, that one match in particular made me reconsider that build altogether (plus I really miss Barrel Roll for travel speed on my Pike).

[Svarthrafn]

I have had difficulty actually getting the protons to connect, but that was before the speed upgrade (circa 2 days ago). That speed upgrade is hands down the most important proton upgrade as it boosts your hit percentage by a lot.

[Kain_Turinbar]

I have had difficulty actually getting the protons to connect, but that was before the speed upgrade (circa 2 days ago). That speed upgrade is hands down the most important proton upgrade as it boosts your hit percentage by a lot.

 

Definitely. I hit that upgrade in my Enforcer first and couldn't believe the difference. My hit % went from probably 33 to 75.

[xyrmagus]

Definitely. I hit that upgrade in my Enforcer first and couldn't believe the difference. My hit % went from probably 33 to 75.

 

Honestly the speed upgrade being that huge is kind of surprising; I was eyeing the enhanced lock on radius. After reading the comments of this thread, the impression I got is as follows:

 

• Ion Missiles - Useless due to combination of damage, lock on time, and range, just as I expected. Sad, because the other Ion weapons each have a very real and useful niche.
  
• Proton Torpedoes - Great for harassing and putting pressure, speed upgrade greatly improves damage potential.
  
• Concussion Missiles - Best option for someone focused on dogfighting due to debuffs/drain and overall ease of use/damage.
  

 

So I think I'm going to build out concussions. I will definitely work on protons after, just to have the option or for new game modes.

 

I know this is off topic for the thread, but do you guys use Quad Lasers, or something else?

[Nemarus]

Honestly the speed upgrade being that huge is kind of surprising; I was eyeing the enhanced lock on radius. After reading the comments of this thread, the impression I got is as follows:

 

• Ion Missiles - Useless due to combination of damage, lock on time, and range, just as I expected. Sad, because the other Ion weapons each have a very real and useful niche.
  
• Proton Torpedoes - Great for harassing and putting pressure, speed upgrade greatly improves damage potential.
  
• Concussion Missiles - Best option for someone focused on dogfighting due to debuffs/drain and overall ease of use/damage.
  

 

So I think I'm going to build out concussions. I will definitely work on protons after, just to have the option or for new game modes.

 

I know this is off topic for the thread, but do you guys use Quad Lasers, or something else?

 

Heavies. With a range capacitor they hit at 6900m, perfect for pairing with Concussion Missiles. They also ignore armor and have 18% shield piercing. Also best accuracy of all cannons, and less power draw than Quads.

[Itkovian]

Heavies. With a range capacitor they hit at 6900m, perfect for pairing with Concussion Missiles. They also ignore armor and have 18% shield piercing. Also best accuracy of all cannons, and less power draw than Quads.

 

I prefer the heavies for my Star Guard, since I can switch to something else for close-in fights (trying out ions for now), and the single secondary launcher makes concussions a nice choice.

 

For my Pike I like Quads with the Cluster/Protorp combination. Clusters don't hit as hard as concussions, of course, but are far more usable in the satellite fights. Basically, if I have two choices of a given weapon type, I tend to pick the more specialized options, while the type with only 1 slot gets something more generic.