Why didn't Revan warn Old Republic about Sith Empire?

[Beniboybling]

*snip*

Oops my bad, guess I've gotten used to folks using 'retcon' to negatitve way

[Euphrosyne]

While technically in Sith Space, as the above poster said "Unknown Regions" is merely a term for uncharted areas of space. And given that Dromund Kaas was at the time "lost" it is technically in the unknown regions.

Not really. Until SWTOR came out, Dromund Kaas was a perfectly ordinary Sith world; its position on a moderately well-used hyperlane made it a noticeable world, if not a particularly notable one. All references to the Sith exodus (see e.g. The Essential Atlas) stated that the Sith left the Stygian Caldera, not that they fled to a different part of it. While the Unknown Regions made up a greater part of space in 5000 BBY than they did during the events of the trilogies, there is no indication that any part of the old Sith Empire qualified under that definition.

 

That only changed when SWTOR came out. Dromund Kaas was rewritten to have been "lost" prior to the fall of the Empire - a truly bizarre turn of events given its location in extremely close proximity to Korriban, the very nature of astronomy, etc. - and "rediscovered" by Vitiate and the exiles. Hell, the Republic supposedly maintained a base over Korriban for much of the post-Jedi Civil War era, and they would've been guilty of a truly unbelievable amount of negligence if they hadn't been able to detect the movements of a massive war machine only a couple dozen lightyears away.

 

I don't know why Dromund Kaas was chosen, instead of a set of systems out in, say, the Tingel Arm, an area that could plausibly be described as "Unknown Regions" during the period. There doesn't seem to be a single story reason for it that makes sense. The planet is a useless jungle wasteland not suitable for major habitation, so it doesn't help to explain the Sith Empire's population. It's not rich in any raw materials necessary for a war effort. It doesn't add anything to our understanding of the Sith, because before the game it was just one of those interchangeable Sith worlds a la Bosthirda or Khar Delba.

Edited January 5, 2014 by Euphrosyne

[Blackholeskipper]

Pretty much what Euphrosyne said. Note that Kreia says the True Sith Empire lies beyond the Outer Rim, with Korriban and Malachor located merely at the fringes of the empire. Dromund Kaas however is right next to Korriban and located in the Outer Rim, not beyond it. So yea, it's a retcon.

 

See here:

KOTOR 2: Part 152 "The Prophecies of Darth Traya"

(around 09:00-09:42)

 

Also, it seems highly unlikely that both the Republic and Revan's Sith Empire were unaware of the True Sith Empire if it was located right next to where much of the action of the Jedi Civil War was happening.

 

If you look at this map from The Essential Atlas, you'll see that the entirety of Swtor's Sith Empire was in territory already occupied by Revan's Empire. (the map is from wookieeepedia, don't worry about the weird url).

http://static1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100803111014/starwars/images/7/79/JediCivilWar.jpg

Edited January 5, 2014 by Blackholeskipper

[Beniboybling]

Not really. Until SWTOR came out, Dromund Kaas was a perfectly ordinary Sith world; its position on a moderately well-used hyperlane made it a noticeable world, if not a particularly notable one. All references to the Sith exodus (see e.g. The Essential Atlas) stated that the Sith left the Stygian Caldera, not that they fled to a different part of it. While the Unknown Regions made up a greater part of space in 5000 BBY than they did during the events of the trilogies, there is no indication that any part of the old Sith Empire qualified under that definition.

 

That only changed when SWTOR came out. Dromund Kaas was rewritten to have been "lost" prior to the fall of the Empire - a truly bizarre turn of events given its location in extremely close proximity to Korriban, the very nature of astronomy, etc. - and "rediscovered" by Vitiate and the exiles. Hell, the Republic supposedly maintained a base over Korriban for much of the post-Jedi Civil War era, and they would've been guilty of a truly unbelievable amount of negligence if they hadn't been able to detect the movements of a massive war machine only a couple dozen lightyears away.

 

I don't know why Dromund Kaas was chosen, instead of a set of systems out in, say, the Tingel Arm, an area that could plausibly be described as "Unknown Regions" during the period. There doesn't seem to be a single story reason for it that makes sense. The planet is a useless jungle wasteland not suitable for major habitation, so it doesn't help to explain the Sith Empire's population. It's not rich in any raw materials necessary for a war effort. It doesn't add anything to our understanding of the Sith, because before the game it was just one of those interchangeable Sith worlds a la Bosthirda or Khar Delba.

Well first I'd say that Dromund Kaas was a good choice from the perspective that it is an relatively unexplored in Star Wars lore, but nonetheless holds a great deal of potential what with a dark side nexus, various dark side temples and generally insidious looking environment. But that's besides the point, according to Traya:

 

"...because Malachor, like Korriban, is on the fringes of the ancient Sith Empire, where the true Sith wait for us, in the dark."

 

The ancient Sith Empire was not located Tingel Arm, but in the Sith Space. Traya is saying here that the Sith Empire is lurking in Sith Space, and this is KOTOR 2 - we don't even know if SWTOR has been conceived yet.

 

Now no planet is extremely close to one another if we actual consider the actual distance between them, and the fact that there are hundreds of thousands of stars and planets all around and between them. If the planet had fallen into disuse, and the hyperlane into disrepair/forgotten it could quite easily disappear, and its existence be forgotten. If a Republic astronomer happened to come across (if they had even been exploring Sith Space) the planets star, they might just overlook it, from that perspective it would be no different from those around it.

 

In that sense it doesn't really matter where it is, a planet in the Core Worlds could go missing, if nobody was looking for it and nobody remembered that it ever existed.

 

And of course remember that space is a big place, looking at a map of Sith Space they might seem close, but that area in which Dromund Kaas resides and the space around it is incredibly large and could easily be uncharted. In fact given that the Great Hyperspace War (when the Republic invaded Sith Space) was thousands of years ago I expect much off Sith Space fell of the star charts and became forgotten. Malachor isn't even in Sith Space so if that's the fringe then Korriban must be right on the border, at that point at least they couldn't have gone any further.

 

And I expect if any did, they would have mysteriously "disappeared" - remember that the Sith Empire had agents throughout the galaxy long before the Great Galactic War started, hiding right under the Republic's noses wouldn't have been difficult. Especially given that, as Traya says, the Jedi were content to just sit in their Temple and meditate.

 

I mean lets not forget that before all this, the ancient Sith Empire conquered the entirety of the Sith Space and even attacked Republic controlled worlds and the Republic were ignorant to their existence until the Hyperspace War.

 

History repeats itself, especially when Jedi are involved.

[Jandi]

What annoys me the most is that not *one* person left the Empire to find the Republic to tell them about it. In the novel Revan, there's travelers and various other people coming and going at the starport yet not one person thought "yeah, umm, this seems like something someone should know about".

 

In all that time, not one disgruntled slave or servant escaped? Not a single Sith left to escape rivals or something? It makes no sense whatsoever.

[Beniboybling]

Pretty much what Euphrosyne said. Note that Kreia says the True Sith Empire lies beyond the Outer Rim, with Korriban and Malachor located merely at the fringes of the empire. Dromund Kaas however is right next to Korriban and located in the Outer Rim, not beyond it. So yea, it's a retcon.

 

See here:

KOTOR 2: Part 152 "The Prophecies of Darth Traya"

(around 09:00-09:42)

 

Also, it seems highly unlikely that both the Republic and Revan's Sith Empire were unaware of the True Sith Empire if it was located right next to where much of the action of the Jedi Civil War was happening.

 

If you look at this map from The Essential Atlas, you'll see that the entirety of Swtor's Sith Empire was in territory already occupied by Revan's Empire. (the map is from wookieeepedia, don't worry about the weird url).

http://static1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100803111014/starwars/images/7/79/JediCivilWar.jpg

Traya says that the True Sith were hiding within Sith Space. Sith Space. We shouldn't consider this to be a small area either, Revan may have had Korriban and Ziost, but that leaves the whole other side of Sith Space uncharted, that's a colossal amount of space. That and many many more unknown territories beyond.

 

That and Revan, when he went in Sith Space actually discovered the True Sith if you recall.

[Beniboybling]

What annoys me the most is that not *one* person left the Empire to find the Republic to tell them about it. In the novel Revan, there's travelers and various other people coming and going at the starport yet not one person thought "yeah, umm, this seems like something someone should know about".

 

In all that time, not one disgruntled slave or servant escaped? Not a single Sith left to escape rivals or something? It makes no sense whatsoever.

Only Revan and Malak knew anything.

[Jandi]

Only Revan and Malak knew anything.

 

I'm talking about the millions of citizens of the Sith empire, not Revan's empire.

[Euphrosyne]

Well first I'd say that Dromund Kaas was a good choice from the perspective that it is an relatively unexplored in Star Wars lore, but nonetheless holds a great deal of potential what with a dark side nexus, various dark side temples and generally insidious looking environment.

There are scads of worlds in the galaxy with Sith ruins that have been relatively unimportant to the lore. Nothing sets Dromund Kaas apart from any other extant Sith worlds (the aforementioned Bosthirda, for instance, or Ashas Ree), and there is the previously mentioned drawback of an absurd location (on economic and secrecy grounds, etc.). That, to me, argues for creating a Sith capital world ex nihilo.

But that's besides the point, according to Traya:

 

"...because Malachor, like Korriban, is on the fringes of the ancient Sith Empire, where the true Sith wait for us, in the dark."

 

The ancient Sith Empire was not located Tingel Arm, but in the Sith Space. Traya is saying here that the Sith Empire is lurking in Sith Space, and this is KOTOR 2 - we don't even know if SWTOR has been conceived yet.

"The fringes of the ancient Sith Empire" is maddeningly inexact. It could mean anything from Kesh to Malachor to Vjun to Tund. The Sith were active throughout that entire quarter of the galaxy, albeit not consistently so; they had presences on several scattered worlds and little else. Kreia's comment there is not decisive by any stretch of the imagination, especially since she incorrectly labels Korriban as being a fringe Sith world which throws her entire statement into question.

 

Your entire argument is founded on an extremely inexact statement by a notoriously unreliable source. It could mean anything, and it might not even be true. I don't find that it's enough to reject the extremely salient other points that make DK a silly location for a capital from a lore and a realism point of view.

 

Furthermore, there is a direct canonical challenge: the Essential Atlas. In the map of the Great Hyperspace War (p. 127), it depicts the postwar Sith exodus. There are arrows leading to historically Sith worlds like Vjun and Tund, and one going to Yavin to represent Naga Sadow himself. And then there's one pointing "to the Unknown Regions", which curves out past the Tingel Arm through what would eventually become the New Territories, past Dantooine and Muunilinst in the general direction of Chiss and Rakata Space. The accompanying text on the following page specifically references that arrow:

The Republic eventually won the war, aided by the fact that many lower-caste Sith killed themselves in ritualistic fashion. The Sith Lords disappeared to haunts on Vjun and Thule, while others built up a new Sith Empire in the Unknown Regions. [italics mine.] Elsewhere, on remote worlds like Kesh, shipwrecked survivors of the war gave up hope of rescue but kept the traditions of the Sith alive for future generations.

There is no other Sith Empire that the authors could be referring to: it must be the one teased in KotOR II, which was also the subject of the then-nebulous buzz surrounding SWTOR's early production. It was initially placed in the actual Unknown Regions, not in Sith Space, which makes SWTOR's DK-centered Empire a retcon.

Now no planet is extremely close to one another if we actual consider the actual distance between them, and the fact that there are hundreds of thousands of stars and planets all around and between them. If the planet had fallen into disuse, and the hyperlane into disrepair/forgotten it could quite easily disappear, and its existence be forgotten. If a Republic astronomer happened to come across (if they had even been exploring Sith Space) the planets star, they might just overlook it, from that perspective it would be no different from those around it.

 

In that sense it doesn't really matter where it is, a planet in the Core Worlds could go missing, if nobody was looking for it and nobody remembered that it ever existed.

 

And of course remember that space is a big place, looking at a map of Sith Space they might seem close, but that area in which Dromund Kaas resides and the space around it is incredibly large and could easily be uncharted. In fact given that the Great Hyperspace War (when the Republic invaded Sith Space) was thousands of years ago I expect much off Sith Space fell of the star charts and became forgotten. Malachor isn't even in Sith Space so if that's the fringe then Korriban must be right on the border, at that point at least they couldn't have gone any further.

Astronomy and hyperspatial navigation don't work that way. Every single navigational hazard in the galaxy has to be mapped out and constantly kept track of, otherwise any attempt to transit the area would become prohibitively dangerous. By 5000 BBY, the beacon networks were long gone, and navicomputers were in regular and wide use; there's simply no excuse for DK falling off the face of the galaxy unless somebody went into billions of ships and thousands of BoSS high-security databases, and destroyed the records. It took a galactic conspiracy by an extremely powerful pair of Sith Lords, one of whom was the Supreme Chancellor, to erase Kamino from the star-maps, and Kamino was in Wild Space beyond the galactic rim, a notoriously poorly-mapped area in the first place; the same considerations do not apply to DK. Furthermore, Dromund Kaas might be one of billions of worlds in the galaxy, but it is one of a relatively very few garden worlds: worlds that can support forms of life commonly found elsewhere, including human life. That alone merits keeping special track of it, even if nobody plans to actually settle on the world anytime soon.

 

Space is vast, but the overwhelming majority of space is irrelevant. Nobody cares about interstellar vacuum, they care about the islands of potential habitable locations around given stars. Most stars lack even that. Keeping track of what's going on around one of the very few relevant worlds in the sector, when there is a military base right there, ought to be incredibly trivial. When we're talking about a sizable empire with millions, possibly billions of inhabitants, and an armada of thousands of torchships at its disposal putting out incredible amounts of energy...well, even modern humanity could probably notice that from the distance between Korriban and Dromund Kaas. And modern humanity doesn't have the access to sensory equipment that the Republic would have had.

And I expect if any did, they would have mysteriously "disappeared" - remember that the Sith Empire had agents throughout the galaxy long before the Great Galactic War started, hiding right under the Republic's noses wouldn't have been difficult. Especially given that, as Traya says, the Jedi were content to just sit in their Temple and meditate.

 

I mean lets not forget that before all this, the ancient Sith Empire conquered the entirety of the Sith Space and even attacked Republic controlled worlds and the Republic were ignorant to their existence until the Hyperspace War.

 

History repeats itself, especially when Jedi are involved.

If you're assigning this to the nebulous Sith "agents", you're creating a further flaw in your own argument. Intelligence-gathering relies on contact. In order to infiltrate another society, you can't simply show up out of the blue, smile, and wave. You have to have the sort of societal links that can facilitate that sort of contact. Imagining a society that can infiltrate high-placed agents into another society while remaining completely secret shatters credibility. And since, in this case, those agents would have had to destroy BoSS records and wipe navicomputers across the galaxy and alter historical records...well, that already strains plausibility, but they would have to be extraordinarily highly placed to do something like that, which is even more dubious. That scenario is just as implausible as the idea that Dromund Kaas and the rest of the Sith Empire could go completely unnoticed for over a millennium.

 

By the way, the claim that the Republic and Sith Empire were completely unaware of each other before the Great Hyperspace War is demonstrably false. Per the Essential Guide to Warfare:

...and the distant Republic was rumored to be plotting the overthrow of the Sith, to impose alien laws and the religious tenets of the Jedi Order.

Several sources have established, more or less in passing, that Naga Sadow and the leaders of the Republic were well aware of each other's existence. Part of the reason the Sith feel so threatened is because cheap Republic imports - including ideas of freedom - have the potential to flood their empire and undermine their power. But you can also look at the leaders on both sides as competing representatives of the centers, clashing shoulders as they extend their control over the resources of the outlying systems.

In the Essential Guide to Warfare, Urquhart and Fry set out to reassert some form of plausibility control over several aspects of the timeline - basically repairing the canonical messes that many authors have created, whether by accident or incompetence. This is one of them: they recognized, rightly, that it's incredibly unlikely that two large polities such as the Sith Empire and Republic could have been completely unaware of each other before circumstance drew them together. If that was the case when the Republic possessed no outposts within Sith Space, it is even more so the case when the Republic had a military base over Korriban itself.

 

We could get into a long and involved discussion about whether history does repeat itself, but even if you do believe that historical repetition occurs, you'd have to concede that precisely because of that fact it is implausible that the SWTOR Republic was unaware of the Sith Empire, because the Tales of the Jedi Republic was aware of the Sith Empire.

 

---

 

All of this is just window-dressing, though. Fundamentally, you're arguing that I have no reason to believe that the way the Sith Empire was written in SWTOR is implausible. That's an awfully silly argument, regardless of the facts: you're attempting to dictate my own opinions to me. I can point to reasons I believe that my opinions are well-founded, and I happen to think that those are very good reasons borne out by the lore. But even if my reasons weren't so good - and to my mind you've failed to demonstrate that - you'd still be making an absurd argument.

 

You might think that the game's Sith Empire is perfectly plausible, and you're entitled to that opinion if you like; I daresay most players hold it, largely because most players are unaware of most of the EU, so you're not exactly in the minority. The grounds for your own opinion could simply be stated as "because the game says so", and you wouldn't necessarily be wrong. But to my eyes, the foundations of the game's setting appear shaky, and there's really no way for anybody to gainsay that.

What annoys me the most is that not *one* person left the Empire to find the Republic to tell them about it. In the novel Revan, there's travelers and various other people coming and going at the starport yet not one person thought "yeah, umm, this seems like something someone should know about".

 

In all that time, not one disgruntled slave or servant escaped? Not a single Sith left to escape rivals or something? It makes no sense whatsoever.

Yeah, it's so ridiculous as to beggar belief. These are Outer Rim worlds we're talking about here; they simply haven't got the population or industry to support a massive war machine on their own. Trade would be completely necessary to sustain any sort of economy at all, and you can't trade without traders. Traders talk to people. It's why people in the ancient Mediterranean and China knew each other existed, even though there was extremely little direct contact. You just can't keep that sort of thing a secret.

[Beniboybling]

1. Dromund Kaas has been notably more deeply explored in Star Wars lore than any of those planets you've listed, in fact I'd say that prior to the advent of SWTOR it was probably the most prominent of the Sith Worlds you might group into the unexplored category. We've had visits Yoda, Mara Jade, Kyle Katarn and a group of Jedi from the post-ROTJ era and its already got prominent locations like the Dark Force Temple and details on flora and fauna. And aside from Ziost, Korriban and perhaps Yavin 4 its the only world I can think of that is steeped in the dark side, the entire planet is a dark side nexus on a considerable scale and that was established some time before SWTOR came along.

 

I also expect the fact that the planet was a living dark side nexus also lured the Sith Emperor there, bringing up its economic uselessness is not really a valid point considering the Sith made capitals on Ziost and Korriban - barren wastelands - and not too important since they have swathes and swathes of territory within the Outer Rim to plunder.

 

2. I needn't remind you that this is a fictional universe and Traya a fictional character, we are not looking at a historical source here but a piece of information, however cryptic, being provided by the developers. You therefore cannot simply dismiss it as too difficult to understand, your going to have to reconcile it with whatever information is in the Essential Atlas if you want to demonstrate that what BioWare did with Dromund Kaas was a retcon.

 

Traya says Korriban is on the fringes of the ancient Sith Empire i.e. that which participated in the Great Hyperspace War, and to me this makes astrogational sense as simply by observing this map we can see that Korriban is effectively a gateway into the Stygian Caldera which surrounded Sith Space, it is a gateway into Sith Space.

 

Neither Vjun nor Tund nor Kesh make logical sense as the territory Traya is referring to as they exist in the wrong direction, its made clear in KOTOR 2 that this ancient threat exists within the Unknown Regions, on the vestiges of space, specifically around the regions of Malachor V. Vjun and Kesh would be moving coreward and Tund is hardly in close proximity to Malachor. But that's besides the point, the point is that when Traya refers to Korriban as on the fringes of the ancient Sith Empire she could only be really referring to the Sith territory within Sith Space that Korriban effectively borders which once was the center of the ancient Sith Empire to which Traya refers.

 

And lo and behold, if we follow Traya's directions into the Core we will stumble upon Dromund Kaas, the homeworld of the True Sith. But lets not also forget that Sion says about Malachor V:

It is the threshold of the borders of an ancient empire. Kreia says that it was a place of reflection for the ancient Sith… a gateway to their lands. It drew Lord Revan… and it calls to her as well. She said that the teachings here will lead one to the Sith… the true Sith… and all their shadowed worlds. This place led Revan to the graveyards of Korriban… and beyond.

The True Sith didn't only inhabit Dromund Kaas, the extended beyond Sith Space and into the Unknown Regions most likely the area around the Tingel Arm as this section of space was attacked at the very beginning of the Great War. And Malachor V, is practically adjacent to said Tingel Arm. So if the Sith Empire did indeed possess territories somewhere around the Tingel Arm Malachor V could very well be described as a threshold of its borders.

 

So what do we have here, we have two hints, one that claims Korriban to border the territories of the True Sith and one that claims Malachor V to border the territories of the True Sith. The former likely referring to somewhere within Sith Space and the latter likely referring to somewhere beyond the Tingel Arm. And with the advent of SWTOR it is revealed that the True Sith are in fact the Sith Empire lead by the Sith Emperor who rediscovered and occupied Dromund Kaas, a planet located within Sith Space and then proceeded to conquer much of the Unknown Regions including territories beyond the Tingel Arm. The followed the words of Traya and Sion practically to the letter.

 

Now concerning this supposed conflict in canon, I would be interested to know if there are any specific times given at when exactly these migrations took place. Because after the Sith Emperor and his followers settled on Dromund Kaas they did exactly what it says in the atlas they "built up a new Sith Empire in the Unknown Regions." Noting that Kaas is the only confirmed planet in so far to be conquered by the Sith Empire within Sith Space prior to the Great War, so in fact 99% of their Empire consisted of territories within the Unknown Regions. So this quote would be in fact quite accurate and does not rule out the possibility that their initial hiding place and later capital was within Sith Space.

 

3. In an instellar-universe such contact is nowhere near as difficult to achieve, as there thousands if not millions of factions existing within the Star Wars universe. The underworld for one is ripe for such activity. There are many many factions that the Sith Empire could introduce themselves too, and not necessarily under that guise, to gain access to the wider galaxy. And of course, they would have to do nothing of the sort as I have already explained Dromund Kaas is off the charts, there is no record of it. But it certainly would help them eliminate anybody who might come close to finding it, or attempt an expedition into the Unknown Regions/Sith Space.

 

Regardless its a minor point and I'm not about to speculate what did or did not happen, though I would note that the Sith Empire did successfully infiltrate the wider galaxy prior to the Great Galactic War, managing to insert a member of there own into the very Jedi Order, which would have required a degree of contacts etc.

 

Now that's some interesting information you bring up from the Essential Guide to Warfare, however I'm not entirely confident its solid. Firstly that particular excerpt also notes the following:

In 5000 BBY an armada of alien warships launched an unprovoked attack on the Koros system. This marked the end of two thousands years of peace - and introduced the galaxy to the Sith.

And the Book of Sith, from the perspective of one of the first exiled Dark Jedi, Sorzuz Syn notes:

 

As revealed by the holocron, the successors to King Adas used their power to conquer worlds beyond Korriban and Ziost. Sith Space is remote but hardly impenetrable. Yet the Republic knows nothing of this kingdom of dark magic. The Sith have left scars anyone can read - anyone who does not believe the lie of strength through tolerance.

 

...

 

The Sith reached other worlds, including those outside the Stygian Caldera.

 

...

 

Since gaining this knowledge, I have sought out these conquered worlds to gather information. Our raids have proved one thing: Republic leaders are willfully blind...I confirmed the Sith indeed struck the Republic world of Dreathos, though the time frame remains murky. They raided Quermia, and Felucia, and other worlds such as Gand and Florn known to scouts and smugglers.

 

The Republic were at the very least unaware of the original Sith Empire prior to their overthrowal by the Dark Jedi, however I find it difficult to believe that the Republic, and more importantly the Jedi Order would allow them to fester.

 

Master Ooroo also says the following:

The Republic has grown and expanded for many generations, encountering no worse than a few interplanetary squabbles and civil wars…but if we should confront the fabled Sith Empire, we will experience a war so great, so devastating…it can cross the fabric of hyperspace, a conflagration spanning the galaxy…

Combined with the information present here I'd hazard a guess that the Republic indeed had strong suspicions that a empire of Sith existed outside of their boundaries, but they likely regarded them to much of a myth or simply too dangerous and therefore left them alone.

 

I highly doubt they were aware that the Dark Jedi had discovered these Sith and transformed them into a powerful and advanced culture ruled by the power of the dark side, that is something the Jedi simply would not tolerate.

 

Regardless this isn't exactly relevant to the resurgent Sith Empire whom as far as we aware kept far more quite, performing no attacks on Republic worlds and altogether remaining restricted to their own space within uncharted territory, territory that the Republic simply could not have entered without mapping new hyperroutes, which it seems they did not. Without those routes, and without the Sith Empire infringing on their territory, there is really know way anyone could possibly discover their existence unless somebody actually took a fleet and flew it directly into that area of space. Revan and Malak are the only individuals who did this, and look what they discovered.

 

4. And you are attempting to dictate to me that the writers of the Star Wars EU are idiots fumbling about in the dark. I've seen many attempts like this to punch plot holes in the Star Wars mythos, but much prefer a stable and consistent universe that makes sense, so I try by best to keep it logically consistent in my mind. The alternative, deciding that it is ridiculous are absurd leaves me with a feeling of dissatisfaction. So I don't plan on abandoning my arguments, and I feel that if others applied their intellect more often, they might be able to make sense of it too

Edited January 6, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

I'm talking about the millions of citizens of the Sith empire, not Revan's empire.

Ah I see, but your forgetting that isolation works both ways. Few if any members of the Sith Empire would have astrogation charts from space outside their own territory, why would they and why would they be allowed? If the Emperor was smart he'd prevent any of that information ever being widely available. And those who do, if they do, are likely far to loyal to the Empire to effectively betray them.

 

Now you might say that some slave captured from the wider galaxy might find his way back, but the resurgent Sith Empire were not like their predecessors, they did not attack any Republic worlds, that means no slaves.

 

So really, even if they wanted to, they'd have no way of doing so. They would be effectively trapped.

 

But lets say one did, who would believe them? You guys certainly wouldn't.

[Beniboybling]

Yeah, it's so ridiculous as to beggar belief. These are Outer Rim worlds we're talking about here; they simply haven't got the population or industry to support a massive war machine on their own. Trade would be completely necessary to sustain any sort of economy at all, and you can't trade without traders. Traders talk to people. It's why people in the ancient Mediterranean and China knew each other existed, even though there was extremely little direct contact. You just can't keep that sort of thing a secret.

Since when is the Outer Rim lacking in resources? Are you unaware of the New Territories? Did you forget the infrastructure of the CIS was primarily based in the Outer Rim? Surely amongst the hundreds if not thousands of worlds they conquered in the Unknown Regions some of the planets would have procured some natural resources?

 

That and the innumerable number of societies they discovered (and conquered) - and can they not trade internally as well? Like we do within our own nations? Society can arise from anywhere - all you need is people. And they had over 1,000 years to develop things like Kaas City and the Imperial Navy, yet Dromund Kaas is still a dump.

 

I'd just like to make that clear, it took them over 1,000 years to construct the Sith Navy in its entirety. And even then the Republic contended with them, in the space of decades the Galactic Empire possessed millions of vessels.

 

Nor can we make real world comparisons to not only a fictional but fantasy galaxy far far away...

Edited January 7, 2014 by Beniboybling

[LordGarmaZabi]

Since when is the Outer Rim devoid of all resources, surely amongst the hundreds if not thousands of worlds they conquered in the Unknown Regions some of the planets would have procured some natural resources?

 

That and the innumerable number of societies they discovered (and conquered) - and can they not trade internally as well? Like we do within our own nations. Society can arise from anywhere - all you need is people. And they had over 1,000 years to develop things like Kaas City and the Imperial Navy, yet Dromund Kaas is still a dump.

 

Nor can we make real world comparisons to not only a fictional but fantasy galaxy far far away...

 

This. Isn't it stated in the history vidoes on this site that the Empire conquered worlds in the unknown region over the past thousand years.

[Jandi]

Ah I see, but your forgetting that isolation works both ways. Few if any members of the Sith Empire would have astrogation charts from space outside their own territory, why would they and why would they be allowed? If the Emperor was smart he'd prevent any of that information ever being widely available. And those who do, if they do, are likely far to loyal to the Empire to effectively betray them.

 

Now you might say that some slave captured from the wider galaxy might find his way back, but the resurgent Sith Empire were not like their predecessors, they did not attack any Republic worlds, that means no slaves.

 

So really, even if they wanted to, they'd have no way of doing so. They would be effectively trapped.

 

But lets say one did, who would believe them? You guys certainly wouldn't.

 

They had spies and agents all across the galaxy with concentrations on worlds on their invasion corridor. They all had to have had them.

 

They had plenty of slaves, entire populations of them. In the Revan novel it's made very clear that most people had slaves. It's not made clear however, if they were born into it from the slaves they took while fleeing the Jedi, or if they were more recently captured, but they did have large amounts of them.

 

As to who would believe them? Umm, it's made very, very clear in the books over and over again that a Jedi can sense if you're lying unless you're extremely good at it. A defector running away after a botched operation somewhere would have no reason to lie because his life is over any way.

 

Not to mention that many Sith have access to navigation charts as well. All it takes is one who pissed off someone they shouldn't have and decides to flee the Empire.

Edited January 7, 2014 by Jandi

[Beniboybling]

They had spies and agents all across the galaxy with concentrations on worlds on their invasion corridor. They all had to have had them.

 

They had plenty of slaves, entire populations of them. In the Revan novel it's made very clear that most people had slaves. It's not made clear however, if they were born into it from the slaves they took while fleeing the Jedi, or if they were more recently captured, but they did have large amounts of them.

 

As to who would believe them? Umm, it's made very, very clear in the books over and over again that a Jedi can sense if you're lying unless you're extremely good at it. A defector running away after a botched operation somewhere would have no reason to lie because his life is over any way.

 

Not to mention that many Sith have access to navigation charts as well. All it takes is one who pissed off someone they shouldn't have and decides to flee the Empire.

Well like I said, only those who could be trusted i.e. those fanatically loyal to the Sith cause would likely be allowed to possess them. And no Sith Lord is going to defect to the Republic, they'd be killed/captured on sight - it would be a purposeless and foolish move, and they'd likely be hunted down by members of the Pyramid of Assassins.

 

We might even consider here Imperial propaganda, the Sith Empire was an empire built upon hatred for the Republic and the Jedi and I highly doubt they were portrayed as pious protectors of democracy, peace and justice. More like power hungry colonists who committed mass genocide on their people. Your average Imperial citizen and perhaps even your average Sith would likely regard them with utmost distrust and hatred.

 

That's assuming that anyone one Sith Lord did possess such star charts, they would have no reason to, not even members of the Dark Council. The Sith Emperor would not want a single Sith Lord entering Republic territory.

 

Now I highly doubt any slave would possess even a vessel let alone the likely top secret star charts, note I'm not saying that there are no slaves in the Empire at all, but none from Republic space i.e. none who are aware of the wider galaxy, the resurgent Sith Empire unlike their predecessors did not impede on Republic space at all.

 

I also highly doubt a disgruntled lets say Sith agent perhaps fearing for his life would think it very wise to go straight to the Jedi Temple, walk up to the nearest Jedi and tap him on the shoulder before conveying to him the existence of a hidden Sith Empire/ To what end? A thirst for pain and suffering? A crazed paranoia?

 

In the unlikely scenario that somebody capable decided to flee the Empire they'd likely simply disappear. Live out his life in peace and seclusion. Not attempt to instigate war, and risk the consequences. Its a highly unlikely scenario.

[Jandi]

Well like I said, only those who could be trusted i.e. those fanatically loyal to the Sith cause would likely be allowed to possess them. And no Sith Lord is going to defect to the Republic, they'd be killed/captured on sight - it would be a purposeless and foolish move, and they'd likely be hunted down by members of the Pyramid of Assassins.

 

Jaessa's master is a former Sith. You can turn lord Praven. When you meet Scourge, he is hunting a member of the Dark Council itself who became a Jedi. I can't remember her name, but the Apprentice of the Sith boss on Ilum can also be turned. These are just those I can recall offhand. I'm sure there are plenty of others. People switch sides, it happens, no matter how high up they are in the food chain.

 

We might even consider here Imperial propaganda, the Sith Empire was an empire built upon hatred for the Republic and the Jedi and I highly doubt they were portrayed as pious protectors of democracy, peace and justice. More like power hungry colonists who committed mass genocide on their people. Your average Imperial citizen and perhaps even your average Sith would likely regard them with utmost distrust and hatred.

 

That is completely irrelevant. All you need is a few people who aren't idiots in the time span of centuries.

 

That's assuming that anyone one Sith Lord did possess such star charts, they would have no reason to, not even members of the Dark Council. The Sith Emperor would not want a single Sith Lord entering Republic territory.

 

Yet they had Sith infiltrators in the Jedi Order itself, among other places, like governments of planets close to their territory. This is stated clearly in the timeline videos.

 

Now I highly doubt any slave would possess even a vessel let alone the likely top secret star charts, note I'm not saying that there are no slaves in the Empire at all, but none from Republic space i.e. none who are aware of the wider galaxy, the resurgent Sith Empire unlike their predecessors did not impede on Republic space at all.

 

Not aware? They had slaves of various species in addition to using slaves to build their *massive* fleet over centuries! You're just talking complete nonsense now.

 

I also highly doubt a disgruntled lets say Sith agent perhaps fearing for his life would think it very wise to go straight to the Jedi Temple, walk up to the nearest Jedi and tap him on the shoulder before conveying to him the existence of a hidden Sith Empire/ To what end? A thirst for pain and suffering? A crazed paranoia?

 

The Sith infliltrators I mentioned earlier knew full well how they would be treated by the Jedi. As in, protected.

 

In the unlikely scenario that somebody capable decided to flee the Empire they'd likely simply disappear. Live out his life in peace and seclusion. Not attempt to instigate war, and risk the consequences. Its a highly unlikely scenario.[/color]

 

Considering that we are talking about a time span of centuries here, it's much more unlikely that no one ever did. They had active spaceports on many worlds with streams of people coming and going. Every single empire in the history of mankind has had it's traitprs. It's just stupid storytelling and streches the suspension of disbelief to a breaking point to claim otherwise. The only possible explanation is some Force induced mass mind control but there has never been any evidence of it.

Edited January 8, 2014 by Jandi

[Beniboybling]

1. Your not considering Imperial propaganda here though which is not besides the point, a society which know nothing about the Republic or the Jedi other than what the Sith Emperor has told them wouldn't even be capable of forming an alternate opinion which was not completely fabricated and fictional. The Jedi and the Republic committed mass genocide on the Sith species, and even the most high ranking members of the Sith Order believe that war with the Republic would lead to their total extermination, that they would finish what they started.

 

So any Sith who might so happen to turn to the light side would not even consider telling the Jedi Order of the Sith's existence because he would be willingly condemning the entire population to death. Does that really sound like the actions of someone new enlightened to believe in peace and harmony? He'd be worse that the Sith.

 

2. As I've already explained, its totally relevant.

 

3. So based on that we are to assume that every single Sith Lord within the Sith Empire possessed star charts? Of course not, as I have already said only those most trusted within the ranks of the Empire would likely be given this information, and even the most loyal and the most fanatic would be dispatched into the wider galaxy. The Sith Emperor would not be so foolish as to overlook the possibility that they might warm to the society they are in and decide the join them. Regardless this does not change the fact they would never tell anyone of the Sith Empire's existence.

 

4. I don't think your understanding me here. No slave within the Sith Empire, not one, originated from outside Sith Space, from the wider galaxy. Its simply impossible, the resurgent Sith Empire never conquered any Republic owned worlds, only worlds within the Unknown Regions. Within uncharted space. These planets have been undiscovered by the Republic, they are isolated societies who have no knowledge of the Republic and therefore would possess no information of navigating this space, which to them is the Unknown Territories.

 

If this were not the case, they would have made contact, and would not be unknown anymore.

 

Regardless this is making the assumption that such a slave would have said information ingrained within their mind, because the Sith Empire would have destroyed or locked away any such information on site and the slaves would have no way of accessing them nor any vessels capable of navigation outside that region.

 

Its simply impossible.

 

5. As I have already explained, they would be condemning their own civilization to complete and utter extermination, at least in their minds, yet the Republic and the Jedi would likely have done exactly that anyway. That and the Sith Emperor would have had whoever foiled his master planned hunted down and killed in the most excruciatingly painful way possible, if you think the Jedi Temple is safe then you are kidding yourself. Its not, its a big fat target.

 

6. They are a completely isolated society with no means of entering Republic space, those few who do would be fanatically loyal to the Sith Empire and any who did defect and could defect would have to be a complete psychopath to tell anyone about the Sith Empire's existence, and even then might be hunted down if they tried. Oh and they'd have to reject the dark side of the Force completely and devote themselves to the light, so that is completely impossible.

[Jandi]

Since you stopped responding to point I've raised and started to throw hyperbole around, I'll just agree to disagree here and leave it at that. It ain't going anywhere.

[Sadishist]

The Sith Empire contained subjugates, such as bounty hunters, who weren't Imperial citizens. If you read Revan.

[Beniboybling]

Since you stopped responding to point I've raised and started to throw hyperbole around, I'll just agree to disagree here and leave it at that. It ain't going anywhere.

I'm not quite sure what point it is you feel I've missed, but is you which to discontinue this debate them I'll comply.

[Beniboybling]

The Sith Empire contained subjugates, such as bounty hunters, who weren't Imperial citizens. If you read Revan.

There are certainly some more independent members within existence in the Empire but I expect they were a minority and unless they were skilled astrographers would likely be unable to leave Sith Space.

[Manweth]

Revan was a BAMF.

 

It's just that....

 

Vitiate is a reallly, really, really BAMF.

 

Revan miscalculated. It happens.