Breakdown of Gunship Issues and Suggested Fixes (from a confessed Gunship abuser)

[ColoradoSkier]

I agree the instant stop via the scope switch is wonky.

 

I also agree with the other poster about why isn't everyone then flying gunships...I rarely see more than two on a side. And if they are so OP then they should also top the leaderboards every time and they don't.

 

I've spent plenty of time as a gunship pilot getting killed within 1 or 2 seconds by a smart scout pilot (Crow on Harbinger I'm looking at you)--is that so different than the 1 (maybe 2) one-shots kills I get on a scout per game? And they don't kill me right away then I'm running like heck and not doing anything else like, you know, shooting people.

 

Again, team game. And 1 or 2 scout pilots out there hunting gunships can really make their lives miserable.

 

Cheers!

Edited December 18, 2013 by ColoradoSkier

[RebekahWSD]

 

Personally I also see another issue with gunships: their ability to instantly come to a stop by using their scope. This allows them to pull "impossible" maneuvers (such as boosting behind cover and immediately stopping, or stopping in mid barrel roll). I personally would prefer it if gunships simply decelerated to full stop normally whenever engaging their scopes, instead of the instantaneous end of all motion we currently see.

 

Anybody can come to an instant stop by hitting x. I'm not sure is you can do that mid barrel roll though, that does seem kinda wrong.

[Kuciwalker]

I actually don't think the scoping into an instant stop thing is a problem. It's weird, I'll grant you, but it makes flying gunships fairly interesting and distinctive from flying other ships (they don't just fly slower, they fly differently).

[Uber_the_Goober]

Anybody can come to an instant stop by hitting x. I'm not sure is you can do that mid barrel roll though, that does seem kinda wrong.

 

Nope, you can't. It gradually decreases your speed. Scoping is instant.

[Nemarus]

Anybody can come to an instant stop by hitting x. I'm not sure is you can do that mid barrel roll though, that does seem kinda wrong.

 

Incorrect. Hitting X sets your throttle to zero, but you still have to decelerate over time from whatever speed you were at.

[Itkovian]

Incorrect. Hitting X sets your throttle to zero, but you still have to decelerate over time from whatever speed you were at.

 

Indeed. So coming to a stop JUST behind a piece of cover requires careful flying, so does placing yourself in a really hard to reach nook. Not so with the instant scope stop.

 

It's not that big a deal, mind you, but it's quite frustrating to see a Gunship run behind cover at full speed then immediately come to a dead stop while under that cover and taking a couple of potshots at another target while you're still busy coming around the cover to bring your weapons to bear.

[Cashal]

So based on what I've read: The only thing everyone seems to agree on. . .

 

 

1) Ion Cannon - Not requiring a full charge to apply full debuff effects

2) Scope Instant Stop (Especially with Barrel roll)

 

 

Everything else seems to have debate.

[Phantasym]

Some of the people posting here seem to think people here are calling for general gunship nerfs and want to make them bad dogfighters or something that is far from the case I think almost everyone here wants to see the gunships maintain their roll as a sniper with 15km range and massive damage.

 

What is being discussed is a likely unintended side affect of the ion rail gun being able to apply drain and debuff with out charging up, using it as a single click with no hold like a dogfighter weapon having the full affect of the debuff and energy drains. I think everyone can agree that is not working as intended, they expected people to charge it up the same way they expected people to charge a slug rail gun to get full damage.

 

One of the other things being discussed is the use of barrel roll for travel, especially in combination with the snap shot ion (not full charge) I honestly don't think that ability was designed as a travel method either. That is why they gave the ships the varying different engine power, and people are using what is supposed to be a defensive maneuvers to work around the engine power and speed limitations that bioware tried to build into the system.

 

personally I play a scout and I don't feel gunships are over powered but I have yet to run into someone using these abilities in this way, I am not even sure I have run into any with a fully speced out ion cannon and so I seldom have issue killing them. I still think those issues need to be fixed though, it is really just someone finding a way to use things that was not the way they were intended to be used and couldn't be guessed. I sometimes program at work, I had a guy come to me and say he made this program I wrote crash by randomly clicking all over the screen, I asked him why he couldn't say why he did it but he made the thing crash, not something I ever expected someone to do or a way I thought someone in my wildest dreams would try to use the thing, but for some reason they did it. I think this is the same type of thing, bioware never expected people to try to fire uncharged shots over and over, or try to travel with just barrel roll but people did. I think the same can be said of stopping in the middle of a barrel roll, not something they thought someone would try. On that issue I would like to see gunships need to come to a stop first, using X like everyone else before engaging the scope, or even not make them stop let them crash because they were scoped while moving.

Edited December 18, 2013 by Phantasym

[Tentou]

Thankfully the devs never read these things or care what people think. No matter what we write at the end of the day they will sit around a conference table and make decisions entirely on their own on if something needs to be changed and how to go about it.

 

Anyway in response to this post.

 

- Bypass is fine, you have 41% passive evasion on scouts that Bypass does nothing for. No change needed.

 

- Burst Cannon is fine, a gunship cannot effectively dogfight due to turn restrictions. It should not be removed.

 

- Barrel Roll should NOT be removed, that is going way too far. The cooldown could be increased by 5 seconds though, so 20 baseline or 15 upgraded.

 

- Ion Cannon should only apply its debuff to the main target and should only perform its weapon/engine drain on a full charged shot. That is the only fix that is needed.

 

The suggestions in this thread if they were put to live would cripple the Gunship beyond belief, they go way overboard.

[WeadonismyMaster]

I get the feeling you havn't actually seen this in action. Barrel roll is faster than full afterburn and doesn't consume as much power. Some gunship pilots actually use it to beat scouts to an objective. Fully upgraded it has a very shot cooldown and doesn't use enough power to make them ever run out of engine power. Any time you get close they hit barrel roll straight at you, by the time you complete a turn they're 10-11km in front of you hitting you with railgun shots.

 

An ion railgun is aoe, applies it's fully secondary effects with the most minimal charge, meaning you have no engine power, and are slowed by 40%. If you try to get close they just keep barrel rolling past you and tapping you with ion railgun. If you try to run they just keep you in range cause you'll never have any power for a boost and the railgun has a 15km range.

 

I really think if someone either knows how to do this, or has it happen we need to get a video recorded so people understand what is happening. You're not dogfighting a gunship, they are staying constantly out of your range and it is IMPOSSIBLE to catch up or escape.

 

What you describe is the singular tactic I have available when engaged by a ship. It's has limited effectiveness, and is certainly not an 'I win' tactic. I have been shot out of the air trying exactly what you describe, and I am a pretty solid pilot.

 

If gunnys are nerfed of that tactic, what will we do? Just sit and die every time. So then we are on respawn all the time, and poof it is DPS dogfight fest.

[reclipsed]

In all this overpowered talk I think people are ignoring all the downsides or things that have to happen for gunship pilots when they want to do their job:

You have to give up visibility.

for the 5-7 seconds you're scoped in, for the rest of the time you see more of the battlefield being so far away

You have to stay still.

if you're not moving between shots, you're doing it wrong

You have to aim a tiny reticule at a target that is usually moving in a pattern much different than dogfighting from behind them.

it seems to be easier to shoot with snipe compared to other primaries, it's insta hit on the bead

Your target has to stay in range and since most gunships like to fight from near max distance that can be problematic.

what?

You can only fire one weapon at a time.

it takes 1 shot for most kills

It takes time to charge up your weapon.

you have 15k on them most of the time if smart

Your weapon has a cool down.

thank god

If you switch weapons you lose your charge.

and?

You can't do your job if someone is attacking you whereas other ships types can still attack while under attack.

this is true, but you can always use burst cannons, the best short ranged dps atm

Basically you're a sitting duck with blinders on firing a single weapon once every 5+ seconds. And when someone inevitably comes after you (which they should) then you aren't contributing. So yeah, gunships need some tools to survive, get away, and just make it fun instead of being a magnet. And in the context of what I outlined above I don't think they're overpowered.

 

This is a team game: scouts capture points and hunt gunships, strike fighters defend points and dogfight, gunships snipe and take out turrets. if you work together at all you can handle gunships; if everyone is off doing their own thing then probably not.

 

 

 

I'm not a Gunship hater. I think they are find EXCEPT for the ION and quick stop things.

[Yorumi]

What you describe is the singular tactic I have available when engaged by a ship. It's has limited effectiveness, and is certainly not an 'I win' tactic. I have been shot out of the air trying exactly what you describe, and I am a pretty solid pilot.

 

If gunnys are nerfed of that tactic, what will we do? Just sit and die every time. So then we are on respawn all the time, and poof it is DPS dogfight fest.

 

If the ion railgun required a full charge it wouldn't be so bad. it's getting into a situation where whoever see who first wins, mostly. If the gunship gets a lucky hit tapping their rail gun they win even if they were spotted first. And it doesn't only work on scouts it all ships.

 

There's also the problem that reason real pilots did barrel rolls was to essentially slow down in order to get behind someone. You fly more distance at the same speed, it's not unlike race cars weaving during a yellow. It forces all pilots to use barrel roll because the others offer no real benefit. It offers exactly the benefits as the other engine abilities but it gives such an extreme speed boost that the slowest ship in the fleet can outrun the fastest.

 

Imagine if cluster missiles could lock on at 15km, people would be screaming to the end of the earth and those have only a fraction of the power of a rail gun. So a scout has no long range option, and a strike has one extreme lockon time missile that both gives a warning and is easily evaded for some range(11.5km max). A gunship has extreme range, potential one shot kills, and very good close range ability through barrel roll and we think this is fair? If that's the case I say proton and thermite missiles should have their ammo tripled, and lock on and reload time halved.

[Itkovian]

What you describe is the singular tactic I have available when engaged by a ship. It's has limited effectiveness, and is certainly not an 'I win' tactic. I have been shot out of the air trying exactly what you describe, and I am a pretty solid pilot.

 

If gunnys are nerfed of that tactic, what will we do? Just sit and die every time. So then we are on respawn all the time, and poof it is DPS dogfight fest.

 

First of all, gunships do have other options when attacked at close range. Indeed you have a series of shield options that help in this case, as well as Interdiction Drive for getting away. Not to mention that you still have the ability to shoot the person you are fighting with blasters and indeed your railgun.

 

Are these enough to allow you to win close up against a skilled pilot at close range? Of course not... and that is how it should be. That's the whole point of balancing the Gunship: they have extreme firepower that can hit at the longest range in the game, and the balancing factor is that close up you are inferior to the other roles (well, at least Scouts and Strikes).

 

Secondly, the tactic as described IS in fact extremely effective in the hands of a good pilots, that's why the thread exists in the first place. Because of it, Gunships are not, in fact, as vulnerable as they should be. The ability to essentially disable and outrun any pursuer (or in fact gun them down with your burst cannons after you've drained their shields engines and weapons) gives the Gunships significant advantages against those who would hunt them down. Enough that a skilled gunship pilot using these tactics cannot be reliably hunted down unless outnumbered or caught unawares (and even then, skilled pilots will be able to react and run away, as gunships are pretty sturdy).

[Wainamoinen]

So based on what I've read: The only thing everyone seems to agree on. . .

 

 

1) Ion Cannon - Not requiring a full charge to apply full debuff effects

2) Scope Instant Stop (Especially with Barrel roll)

 

 

Everything else seems to have debate.

 

I almost agree with that - and I disagree with the idea gunships are OP (I play all the ships, mostly Novadive, and have played them all a lot because I was on PTS and Closed PTS). I remember the OP saying gunships should be nerfed back on PTS.

 

Even Bypass, while powerful, isn't all-powerful. You still need to hit a scout. Perhaps tone it down to 30%. Maybe it should go to Primary only, but I don't think gunships are so out of whack we can be sure they need a crowbar taking to them yet.

 

But railgun side effects should apply according to charge level, same as damage. And I can't believe being able to drop out of barrel roll to a stop is working as intended. Instant stop from normal movement I don't mind.

 

Maybe barrrel roll's movement should be reduced, but again I think that can wait.

 

Also, to one poster above - no we don't have data. Anecdote =/= data.

 

Edit: I don't want to criticise OP, his method of outlining specific issues is to be applauded. But I disagree with the premise that gunships are a problem that need fixing.

 

I do think they may have some aspects that aren't working quite right.

 

I simply do not see them ruling space combat. Maybe it's a server thing?

Edited December 18, 2013 by Wainamoinen

[Tiron_Raptor]

I disagree with the premise that gunships are a problem that need fixing.

 

I do think they may have some aspects that aren't working quite right.

 

I simply do not see them ruling space combat. Maybe it's a server thing?

 

I just spent an entire match almost unable to do anything, because a group of gunships were abusing the Ion tap debuffs to leave me stuck dead in space with no weapons and no engines.

 

The gunships themselves were doing very little damage, but given that I was basically stuck dead in space with no weapons and no engines, they still would've picked me apart eventually.

 

As it was they didn't have to, as their friends in scouts were taking care of it.

 

No weapons, no afterburners, no missile evasion. And once I'm locked down they just keep hitting me with it.

 

Any mechanic that keeps a player locked down, with no way to escape it, is a problem.

[WeadonismyMaster]

I just spent an entire match almost unable to do anything, because a group of gunships were abusing the Ion tap debuffs to leave me stuck dead in space with no weapons and no engines.

 

The gunships themselves were doing very little damage, but given that I was basically stuck dead in space with no weapons and no engines, they still would've picked me apart eventually.

 

As it was they didn't have to, as their friends in scouts were taking care of it.

 

No weapons, no afterburners, no missile evasion. And once I'm locked down they just keep hitting me with it.

 

Any mechanic that keeps a player locked down, with no way to escape it, is a problem.

 

So essentially you were stunned and then killed by teammates. Which is pretty much how all the stuns work in PVP... I cant count the number of times I have been force choked while some shadows wreck me. While it is frustrating, it is team pvp, and it seems inline with other SWTOR pvp play mechanics.

 

That said... if gunnys are really OP it won't take long for the PVP FOTM trash to figure it out and you will have 6-8 of them per match. I support nerfing FTOM always, so I will get on board then.

Edited December 18, 2013 by WeadonismyMaster

[paowee]

but but but...

 

 

now try this imp side before crawling back to your safe teams

It is true!

 

I don't know what weapons those Flashfires got but when they gank, my Gunship is dead in seconds. When i notice the damage, i hit barrel roll but still get blown away >_<.

 

Quad Laser + Bypass on a Flashfire too stronk

Edited December 18, 2013 by paowee

[Sindariel]

*snip*

 

Thanks for this great "guide".

Now, every idiot on my server is doing the same and hunting gunships has become a huge pain in the butt.

Barrel rolling and burst laser firing gunships everywhere. -.-

Edited December 19, 2013 by Sindariel

[Nemarus]

Thanks for this great "guide".

Now, every idiot on my server is doing the same and hunting gunships has become a huge pain in the butt.

Barrel rolling and burst laser firing gunships everywhere. -.-

 

Better to expose it now, before official launch. Plus I would have an ethical problem with exploiting overpowered aspects of a ship but keeping it to myself

 

WHERE ARE MY LIGHT SIDE POINTS?

[Itkovian]

Thanks for this great "guide".

Now, every idiot on my server is doing the same and hunting gunships has become a huge pain in the butt.

Barrel rolling and burst laser firing gunships everywhere. -.-

 

Excellent, the more people abuse this, the faster it gets fixed. And some of this, ESPECIALLY the ion railgun issue, needs to be fixed, and fixed quickly.

Edited December 19, 2013 by Itkovian

[DarthVindictus]

Removing barrel roll would make gunships literally free kills.

[Ryuku-sama]

I don't know where you saw gunship competing with a scout for speed. Even while barrel rolling away my novadive (which is using koiogran turn or snap turn for the quick attack it allow on nodes) can catch up a gunship anytime and never run out of engine power (especially with the system that recharge is engine pool, i can't remember its name). The only way for him to get away is by this evident bug that is snap shot ion railgun drain or by fighting back which will lead him to death since i can outmaneuver him easily with quick attack and snap turn/koiogran to turn and re pass above his head all guns out.

 

By the way, i far from the best player on my server (Jung Ma).

 

So far two things are really OP.... snap shot ion railgun drain and the instant stop.

The first because it's against the intent of railgun which is to force pilot to stay still to hit at full power his target.

The second because it's impossible to any others ship to stop like that while all should be more maneuvrable than a gunship.

I don't mind burst cannon since he can't touch me with it long enough to damage my novadive enough before i'm beside him and turning to reopen fire before he can't aim at me.

I don't mind gunship barrel rolling away since i can keep up with it anytime with my afterburners.

I don't mind one-shot since it's a good tradeoff for their lack of speed and maneuverability. Especilly since it's possible in specific situation.

 

The char I'm using at the moment is Alla'aya for those of Jung Ma.

[Hassat-Hunter]

Removing barrel roll would make gunships literally free kills.

Would be a nice counter to the free kills gunship get for being a sniper in a dogfight game...

 

But yeah, great post OP, and a salute to you for not being like all the other gunship players going into eternal defense mode...

[MCaliban]

Indeed. So coming to a stop JUST behind a piece of cover requires careful flying, so does placing yourself in a really hard to reach nook. Not so with the instant scope stop.

 

It's not that big a deal, mind you, but it's quite frustrating to see a Gunship run behind cover at full speed then immediately come to a dead stop while under that cover and taking a couple of potshots at another target while you're still busy coming around the cover to bring your weapons to bear.

 

Instant scope stop does not take careful flying. Instant scope stop at exactly the right spot and angle, immediately getting a bead on a moving target, and hitting them a couple times takes skill. Even more so if they can judge exactly the amount of time needed to do this and then move off again before you're able to pop them.

[Fractalwave]

I just spent an entire match almost unable to do anything, because a group of gunships were abusing the Ion tap debuffs to leave me stuck dead in space with no weapons and no engines.

 

The gunships themselves were doing very little damage, but given that I was basically stuck dead in space with no weapons and no engines, they still would've picked me apart eventually.

 

As it was they didn't have to, as their friends in scouts were taking care of it.

 

No weapons, no afterburners, no missile evasion. And once I'm locked down they just keep hitting me with it.

 

Any mechanic that keeps a player locked down, with no way to escape it, is a problem.

 

I agree with this.

 

I had two matches that were like this tonight (there were 4 gunships doing this in the matches) except that it was most often the gunship getting in the kill shot, not his buddies. It was so bad that if I see these characters on either my team or the other team, I will quit the match because I already know that they WILL exploit the bug in such a way that I am not enjoying myself. I play this game to have fun and will not remain in a situation where I know I will not be having fun.

 

You can be jigging all over the place and still get affected by an ion gun when you were not the targeted player just because you happen to be close to the person who was hit. This is an option on one of the upgrades. There is also an option that prevents power from regenerating for 6 seconds which in a dogfight is an eternity. Once power does start to regen you still have to wait long enough to get the power to do anything. So it's not that you can't move for 6 seconds, it can take another 10 seconds to get enough power to move.

 

So essentially you were stunned and then killed by teammates. Which is pretty much how all the stuns work in PVP... I cant count the number of times I have been force choked while some shadows wreck me. While it is frustrating, it is team pvp, and it seems inline with other SWTOR pvp play mechanics.

 

Really? Those stuns in normal PvP have a cost associated with them. It's not the same.

 

You do not need a full charge on the weapon to cause this affect and you have a second weapon that can one shot the victim before they can regenerate enough power to do anything. The power cost required to stun is effectively nothing. The effect lasts more than long enough for the kill and can affect up to 3 others nearby.

 

If your opponent in PvP could force choke you at no cost to them, do 50% hp damage to 3 nearby teammates, and kill you with the weapon in their other hand at the same time, then you would not be upset and would think it was standard PvP mechanics? What if your opponent could also stack this force choke on you so there is no way you could move again until after you died?

 

No other weapon or ability in the game completely drains all power or effectively stuns an opponent until they die at no cost to the character using the ability.

 

When you add an ability to move across the field of play at will and an ability to come to an ALL STOP at no cost, the ship is more than just broken.

 

Please change the no cost 100% power drain so it has a reasonable cost requirement and remove the instant stop during a barrel roll.