Remove the "boost" component of evasive abilities

[Grayseven]

The boost component to abilities like Barrel Roll and Kooligan Turn are unnecessary and in most cases unwanted.

 

We have access to boost already, if we want to use an evasive maneuver and boost we already have the option, but with the only way to break lock being those maneuvers we need to be able to use them in more circumstances than just in wide open areas where you won't slam into something.

 

Special maneuvers should also cleanse Probes. As it is now, we have no defenses to an attached Probe.

[Phantasym]

I agree with most of this, try using barrel roll in the center object in the mesa for example when you are locked on while orbiting the satellite.

 

Eliminating the boost would make it useful in more situations and prevent it from being used as a way to travel, especially by gunships which shouldn't be able to travel fast but get around it with barrel roll. If you want to move fast spec into engine stuff and the ships that are supposed to do it.

 

The one exception might be the retro thrusters if they don't move you back at all they don't really do anything, They need to move you backward though not sure on the distance or at least make a ship chasing you pass you somehow.

 

They should all break the probe off you as well.

[Osoygatitalove]

I agree with most of this, try using barrel roll in the center object in the mesa for example when you are locked on while orbiting the satellite.

 

Eliminating the boost would make it useful in more situations and prevent it from being used as a way to travel, especially by gunships which shouldn't be able to travel fast but get around it with barrel roll. If you want to move fast spec into engine stuff and the ships that are supposed to do it.

 

The one exception might be the retro thrusters if they don't move you back at all they don't really do anything, They need to move you backward though not sure on the distance or at least make a ship chasing you pass you somehow.

 

They should all break the probe off you as well.

 

skilled pilots can do a barrel roll in the middle of mesa or much more small and difficult places to maneuver, its just practice

[Nemarus]

I agree, OP. Taking anything but Barrel Roll (on any ship) is pretty much self-gimping at this point.

[Lord_Of_Sith]

I agree, OP. Taking anything but Barrel Roll (on any ship) is pretty much self-gimping at this point.

 

I'm really a fan of retro-thrusters myself. But on the ships that don't have it, I agree that there is absolutely no reason to use anything other than Barrel Roll.

 

Perhaps they should add a new engine option for all ships that is merely a missile-lock breaker with no movement? This would be more or less useless to people dogfighting in the open (you'd have a new missile lock on you immediately), but would be tremendously useful to people satellite hugging or playing in confined areas.

 

There is a distinct trade-off to letting players break missile locks without movement; I am fine with giving players that choice.

[Phantasym]

skilled pilots can do a barrel roll in the middle of mesa or much more small and difficult places to maneuver, its just practice

 

I can do a barrel roll in mesa if I am facing the right away, but you loose completely control over the ship during the maneuver, it just feels like it boost too much to me. Sometimes you have to get lucky and roll around Struts or other structural members to be able to use it in confined spaces. I simply dislike it being used as a travel method.

[Delta_V]

Counter argument:

 

They're not the only way to break lock-ons. In the areas where there are too many obstacles to safely use a defensive maneuver, you can instead use those same obstacles to break LOS, and thus break missile locks. Of course, this won't evade missiles that have already been fired, but this is one thing I think really needs to be changed. Missiles flying through rock/metal structures to hit their target is just lame.

[Lord_Of_Sith]

I simply dislike it being used as a travel method.

 

While you were posting this, I was making my own post in another thread, copy and pasted here:

 

An idea that I would propose: have barrel roll leave a 20s debuff on the player. If the player has the debuff, barrel roll is still usable but will only launch them ~2-3km rather than the ~8-10km or whatever the distance is right now. This leaves its missile evading and temporary dogfight relief 100% intact, and leaves its occasional use 100% intact, but would remove its utility as a spammable travel mechanism that leaves everyone else in the dust.

[Bleeters]

Seeing as barrel roll has a cooldown, I'm not sure how it qualifies as "spammable".

 

Regardless, removing the movement portion of these abilities would just create another problem: you'd be able to use them anywhere, at any time, to evade a missle lock without consequence. Right now, as has been pointed out, if you use barrel roll and don't have a suitably clear space in order to do it, you're just going to smack into an asteroid/girder/satelite/etc and explode. You actually have to be fairly careful about using it.

 

Not to mention that taking that away would essentially reduce the difference between them all to an animation change, making the choice of which one you prefer kind of moot.

Edited December 16, 2013 by Bleeters

[Slivovidze]

Noo no no no no. Don't take my barrel roll boost. I use barrel roll pretty much on cooldown and only thanks to it I can survive as long as I do. Give NovaDive a slow roll and it will get shot to pieces by first gunship + strike fighter combo.

Give players a choice, sure, but don't kill half of scout's agility, please. I learned to use it without killing myself (well, mostly, accidents still happen ), you can do it too! And then you will miss the speed boost.

[Lord_Of_Sith]

Seeing as barrel roll has a cooldown, I'm not sure how it qualifies as "spammable".

 

It lasts 3 seconds and is on a 10 second cooldown. If it isn't spammable, it's awful close.

 

Anyways, the point is that (and I apologize for non-exact numbers) a ship with under 700m/s speed (such as a gunship) with barrel roll can nearly indefinitely outrun a scout with 850m/s+ speed without barrel roll.

[Endless]

I dont use barrel roll, because I find interdiction drive much much more useful as a gunship. Someone spots me I can jab my interdiction boost and afterburners and be halfway across the map (albeit without any engine power) before anyone catches up; If I catch my spotter with the debuff then I can pretty much make it to safety.

 

I use distortion field for evading lock ons and blaster fire. If i'm in so much trouble I need to use that more than once then I might as well be dead anyway, unless I have support.

[Lymain]

I disagree. It doesn't need to be any easier for people to survive in the tiny cap range around satellites, and making sabotage probe breakable would make it worthless.

[Phantasym]

I disagree. It doesn't need to be any easier for people to survive in the tiny cap range around satellites, and making sabotage probe breakable would make it worthless.

 

Why should every single missile but sabotage probe be breakable. Right now getting hit with it is almost a guaranteed kill. That is not the case with the other missiles even against a scout unless you are already damaged. It still requires a special ability to break which may be on cooldown if it was used to try to break the lock before fired or to avoid a missile etc.

[Luckyluzi]

making a active sabotage probe cleansable is like make barrel roll heal missile damage..... you can evade a sabotage probe... use the engine skill during the lockon or befor the probe hits you, after you are hit its to late

sabotage probe is one of the hardest secundaries to hit with, 3sec lockon with 5km range

[RCSlyman]

The boost is fine on the engine abilities. It's not their fault that you can't keep track of where you are or what your orientation is in relation to the terrain around you. I take way more deaths from clipping something while boost chasing an enemy than I do from K-Turning into an obstacle, but I'm pretty good at keeping track of where my ship is and how it's facing. So even around a sat, or in the confines of the Communication Array in Kuat Mesa, I'm pretty comfortable hitting my K-Turn if I absolutely cannot evade a lock-on.

[Phantasym]

The boost is fine on the engine abilities. It's not their fault that you can't keep track of where you are or what your orientation is in relation to the terrain around you. I take way more deaths from clipping something while boost chasing an enemy than I do from K-Turning into an obstacle, but I'm pretty good at keeping track of where my ship is and how it's facing. So even around a sat, or in the confines of the Communication Array in Kuat Mesa, I'm pretty comfortable hitting my K-Turn if I absolutely cannot evade a lock-on.

 

K turn is much less likely to put you into an object then barrel roll is, Retro thrusters also much less likely to put you into something. They also change your direction with minimal "boost" they don't help you travel, they help dodge missiles and dog fight. Part of the complaint on barrel roll is it being used to travel on a 10 second cooldown with 3 seconds of that being the ability active and such a huge boost of distance it is easily about 8km.

[RCSlyman]

And yet, Barrel Roll keeps you going the same direction. Which means you see exactly where you're pointed at when you start it. So running into things is ENTIRELY the pilot's fault. It's not a problem with the boost.

 

Now, the using it to travel across the map bit, THAT much I can agree with. Simple fix, increase the CD time. I'd be all for that happening across all the engine ability CDs, to keep it balanced. Slight increase in secondary weapon reload times would be in order to complete the balancing. But taking the boost out of it? That's just lazy.

Edited December 17, 2013 by RCSlyman

[Phantasym]

I guess I just feel like it boost you too far too quickly, considerable faster then a scout using their boost. Though my main issue is using it to travel. It will boost you clear from one side of the center objective to the other in mesa map, and because of the cork screw you can sometimes hit objects you are not expecting, or have to pull up extremely sharply to not collide after a barrel roll

[Grayseven]

We already have boost. If you want to boost AND use an evasive you can do so, but having a long period of no control defeats the purpose of a defensive cool down.

 

If I am barrel rolling, I should be able to control the direction of my barrel roll. If I want to boost, I should be able to control the boost.

 

In its current incarnation, defensive cool downs are as much a liability as they are helpful. Simply removing the boost component makes the abilities more useful and keeps the pilot in control. Wild maneuver plus boost plus loss of control is not a good thing when you are in the middle of a furball around any obstacle.

 

The whole point is the fact that having boost and then having defensive abilities that are hampered by an additional boost when it might not be needed reduces the effectiveness of those defensive abilities. When you get down to it, the added boost component is completely unnecessary.

[Bleeters]

Why should every single missile but sabotage probe be breakable. Right now getting hit with it is almost a guaranteed kill. That is not the case with the other missiles even against a scout unless you are already damaged. It still requires a special ability to break which may be on cooldown if it was used to try to break the lock before fired or to avoid a missile etc.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you can use evasion abilities whilst a sabotage probe is inflight and lose it (and obviously when the attacker is trying to lock on in the first place), the same as any missle. Letting you evade after it's latched on to dislodge it amounts to wanting to be able to roll after being hit by regular missles and reverse the damage.