Selenial Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 Any counterargument instead of reactions? His suit has never once been breached by Lightning/Electricity. Only ever affected Greatly by it is when his suit has been damaged and exposed by a saber strike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 Vader's a pretty gosh darn good #1 choice. I'd also like to nominate Mace Windu's entourage during the Showdown on Coruscant. Of course Plo Koon, too. I saw that one coming Kit Fisto is a good one IMO. I'd say Meetra Surik, but meh, she's not that underrated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 I saw that one coming Kit Fisto is a good one IMO. I'd say Meetra Surik, but meh, she's not that underrated. Of course everyone would see it coming, but I'll stand by that nomination. But as for Kit Fisto, he really needs to be on this list, and I can easily prove why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaptorClown Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 (edited) Good topic for discussion. In no specific order: - Darth Malak - Darth Bandon - Bastilla Shan - Revan - Marka Ragnos - Ludo Kressh - Naga Sadow - Satele Shan - Darth Sion - Darth Malgus In addition, members of the Dark Council of the reconstituted (ancient) Sith Empire in general. In-fact, TOR era characters in general. i don't think u understand this topic correctly. kit fisto was one of the best duelists of jedi order - yet he falls from like 2hits from Sid. in 4v1 fight lol - thats stupid if u ask me:p Edited December 15, 2013 by RaptorClown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 At this point Traya is over-estimated not under-estimated on these forums. There is a lot of exaggeration on her abilities on these forums. Traya is good, but she is not as good as people like to make her out to be on these forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 (edited) At this point Traya is over-estimated not under-estimated on these forums. There is a lot of exaggeration on her abilities on these forums. Traya is good, but she is not as good as people like to make her out to be on these forums. Pfft, you're just saying that as you're about to face her. But seriously, got an example? If I'm overestimating her , I wanna know.... Edited December 15, 2013 by Selenial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 Pfft, you're just saying that as you're about to face her. But seriously, got an example? If I'm overestimating her , I wanna know.... Well her saber combat ability for one, Having a workable knowledge and being able to recognize all forms does not equal full mastery of all forms. Her ability to force drain, She is skilled and can even drain three Jedi masters all the way, this does not however= the ability to drain entire Platoons, we see this with telekinetics all the time some can lift massive objects but have problems lifting multiple objects even if their overall weight is less. Her ability to Manipulate, called better then Sidious in this regard some times..... and why? because she blackmailed a few people that's no where near the manipulation of an entire galaxy, I can go on probably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 Well her saber combat ability for one, Having a workable knowledge and being able to recognize all forms does not equal full mastery of all forms. I dont think anyone has ever said she's a master of all the forms... Like... Ever. Her ability to force drain, She is skilled and can even drain three Jedi masters all the way, this does not however= the ability to drain entire Platoons, we see this with telekinetics all the time some can lift massive objects but have problems lifting multiple objects even if their overall weight is less. Nihilus, no where near the height of his power, pretty much just starting out with Force Drain, (Never any accounts of more than 3 Jedi Dissapearing at once) and he drains an entire planet... Force Drain and Telekinesis are completely different powers. Beni phrased it quite well, it's like eating a meal. Eat as much as you want, til you're full Her ability to Manipulate, called better then Sidious in this regard some times..... and why? because she blackmailed a few people that's no where near the manipulation of an entire galaxy, I can go on probably. Don't think we ever said better, but rivaling Sidious? Yup. They pretty much did the same thing. Traya manipulated the Jedi Council into denouncing the Exile, manipulated Atris to lure the Jedi to katarr, only to have them destroyed by Nihilus. That in itself was a manipulation of Nihilus because she knew that from then on, at that stage, he'd be an animal simply craving force energy. She manipulated the Exile, an incredibly powerful Jedi, into convening all the Jedi Council in one place, so she could kill them, all the while hiding her dark presence from the Exile (Who could even sense it in Revan before he fell) and the Council, and even her Sith enemies. She then manipulated the Jedi Exile into coming to malachor, Killing her and Sion and ending the Triumvirate, before convincing her to follow Revan into the unknown regions. The Jedi order, and the Sith Order fell because Traya manipulated them into falling. But do, go on if there's more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 (edited) I dont think anyone has ever said she's a master of all the forms... Like... Ever. Nihilus, no where near the height of his power, pretty much just starting out with Force Drain, (Never any accounts of more than 3 Jedi Dissapearing at once) and he drains an entire planet... Force Drain and Telekinesis are completely different powers. Beni phrased it quite well, it's like eating a meal. Eat as much as you want, til you're full Don't think we ever said better, but rivaling Sidious? Yup. They pretty much did the same thing. Traya manipulated the Jedi Council into denouncing the Exile, manipulated Atris to lure the Jedi to katarr, only to have them destroyed by Nihilus. That in itself was a manipulation of Nihilus because she knew that from then on, at that stage, he'd be an animal simply craving force energy. She manipulated the Exile, an incredibly powerful Jedi, into convening all the Jedi Council in one place, so she could kill them, all the while hiding her dark presence from the Exile (Who could even sense it in Revan before he fell) and the Council, and even her Sith enemies. She then manipulated the Jedi Exile into coming to malachor, Killing her and Sion and ending the Triumvirate, before convincing her to follow Revan into the unknown regions. The Jedi order, and the Sith Order fell because Traya manipulated them into falling. But do, go on if there's more. Traya is not Nihilus and you just proved my point give me an example of Traya doing more then 3 and then you can say she can. All force powers work very similar to one another Force drain is not an exception like I said an overestimation of her abilities. Minipulation 1 council is not = to a council + Senate+ Courts + military not by a long shot. Like I said over estimation of her abilities is quite rampant and people are blinded enough that they cant see it. Edited December 15, 2013 by tunewalker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 (edited) Traya is not Nihilus and you just proved my point give me an example of Traya doing more then 3 and then you can say she can. All force powers work very similar to one another Force drain is not an exception like I said an overestimation of her abilities. Minipulation 1 council is not = to a council + Senate+ Courts + military not by a long shot. Like I said over estimation of her abilities is quite rampant and people are blinded enough that they cant see it. Traya hasn't done more than 3, because it's not in her character. She doesnt want to become another Nihilus, she thinks he's an abomination. The point is Nihilus went from One Jedi at a time to an entire Planet. And she had more power than him, hundredfold even, before he destroyed the Conclave on Katarr. She could likely do the same. He didn't Manipulate the Jedi Council. The Jedi Council didnt like him, they saw through his attempts at manipulation, so did pretty much any senator who wasn't wanting more power too. Like I said, under estimation of her abilities is quite rampant and people are so blind they cannot see it. Either way this is my last post on the matter, let's leave it for our Kaggath, when i can whap out every single quote possible on Traya, show you she has power. I don't want to derail Rayla's thread, which happens to have a very good core and great idea at it's heart. Edited December 15, 2013 by Selenial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 You're both right. Traya is overestimated by her fans, underestimated by, well, everyone else. If she would be placed on the list, then it would be near the bottom, especially on this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 Wait is this underrated in terms of Force Useage or just overall in general? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 Wait is this underrated in terms of Force Useage or just overall in general? In general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 (edited) Traya hasn't done more than 3, because it's not in her character. She doesnt want to become another Nihilus, she thinks he's an abomination. The point is Nihilus went from One Jedi at a time to an entire Planet. And she had more power than him, hundredfold even, before he destroyed the Conclave on Katarr. She could likely do the same. He didn't Manipulate the Jedi Council. The Jedi Council didnt like him, they saw through his attempts at manipulation, so did pretty much any senator who wasn't wanting more power too. Like I said, under estimation of her abilities is quite rampant and people are so blind they cannot see it. Either way this is my last post on the matter, let's leave it for our Kaggath, when i can whap out every single quote possible on Traya, show you she has power. I don't want to derail Rayla's thread, which happens to have a very good core and great idea at it's heart. I never doubted she had power but you overestimate the force in general here, or at least its nature. Some people are naturally better with certain abilities this is what nihilus is with force drain. If it was as you say their would be a lot more "nihilus's" in star wars history as Force Drain was all over the place especially with the ancient sith. Coran Horn had next to no training with Tutanimis the first time he used it draining the heat of an irradiated pool and then using the energy he gathered their to lift several objects out of the pool, he had no training in it at all and at the time was showing greater feats with it then his master Luke. It wasn't because he was more powerful then Luke but because he was naturally more gifted with that ability. Same can be said for Nihilus. The problem is that every one assumes Traya can do EVERYTHING her subordinates can which is simply false they are not the same people and as it has been pointed out in Lore itself different people have different affinities for different abilities. So one can be stronger or weaker and still not be as good with varying abilities. Its why we will never see another Sion or Nihilus. Edited December 15, 2013 by tunewalker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S_W_LeGenD Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 (edited) His suit has never once been breached by Lightning/Electricity. Only ever affected Greatly by it is when his suit has been damaged and exposed by a saber strike. You sure about this? Vader was mortally wounded from exposure to Sith lightning from Palpatine: "Mortally wounded by Sith lightning, the Chosen One hurls Darth Sidious down an elevator shaft, and the Emperor explodes in a violent release of dark energy." (From Star Wars: The Ultimate Visual Guide) Vader certainly lost one of his hands in a duel with Luke prior to the aforementioned event but I am not sure if this would make him vulnerable to effects of Sith lightning. Vader himself did not cast or unleash Sith lightning because this could be dangerous to him regardless of his attempts to make his body armor more Sith lightning resistant with special modifications. Vader is not exactly defenseless against Sith lightning; he is armed with a lightsaber, have some grasp of Tutaminis abilities and modified his body armor to make it more resistant to Sith lightning. With these defensive measures, Vader can certainly shrug off Sith lightning assault to a certain level but this power is not a non-factor for him just like it is not a non-factor for many other characters. Even Palpatine have limits in this aspect. Some additional revelations: "Vader himself fought more cautiously than he had on the Death Star, the last time they had dueled in earnest. His armor seemed to have improved, too; it was less vulnerable to lightning than it had been just days before." (From Star Wars: The Force Unleashed II: Novelization) "But the same was true in reverse. And when Vader forced Starkiller onto his back foot and raised his lightsaber to strike him down, Starkiller fired a lightning blast into the side of Vader's armor that was so concentrated, even the new insulation couldn't absorb it. The Dark Lord stiffened, betrayed by his extensive prosthetics. The distraction lasted only a moment, but it was enough. Starkiller knocked his blade out of the way and moved in to strike." (From Star Wars: The Force Unleashed II: Novelization) Effectiveness of Sith lightning depends upon the proficiency of a character in its use along with character's power in general, but proficiency aspect is an important determinant. Edited December 15, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 How relevant is this Vader vs. Force Lightning discussion to the original topic? None I say. In the meantime, I will be preparing my Kit Fisto argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S_W_LeGenD Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 (edited) I think that Vader is generally respected for his abilities worldwide. I am not sure why people think that he is underestimated. Edited December 15, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 I think that Vader is generally respected for his abilities worldwide. I am not sure why people think that he is underestimated. The general argument against Vader is based only on what is seen in the movies. That's why people underestimate him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S_W_LeGenD Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 (edited) The general argument against Vader is based only on what is seen in the movies. That's why people underestimate him. I don't think he is underestimated as much as some speculate, every character have been underestimated by some in a debate at certain point and Vader is not an exception in this aspect. Vader is certainly not among the most underestimated characters of the mythos, he have good reputation over-all. The revelations in my first post in this thread (post # 5) is based on observations of many debates in various forums. Edited December 15, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 Top of the list should really be people like Kit Fisto, or I think number 1 should be Agen Kolar most people don't even know who he is. (assuming I spelled that right.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 Top of the list should really be people like Kit Fisto, or I think number 1 should be Agen Kolar most people don't even know who he is. (assuming I spelled that right.) Personally, I think it should be Fisto at the top, but Kolar is a good pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S_W_LeGenD Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 (edited) Top of the list should really be people like Kit Fisto, or I think number 1 should be Agen Kolar most people don't even know who he is. (assuming I spelled that right.) These two don't have much showings either. They are experts of Jedi dueling arts but not powerhouses. Shaak Ti and Rahm Kota are more valid candidates. Edited December 15, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 (edited) These two don't have much showings either. They are experts of Jedi dueling arts but not powerhouses. This isn't a list about powerhouses though. They are some of the top of the order yet most know them for standing up for 3 seconds against Sidious and immediately assume they are garbage. And technically I think Fisto was known to be more powerful then Kota. Edited December 15, 2013 by tunewalker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S_W_LeGenD Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 (edited) This isn't a list about powerhouses though. They are some of the top of the order yet most know them for standing up for 3 seconds against Sidious and immediately assume they are garbage. They are renowned for their expertise in Jedi dueling arts but not exactly powerhouses, this is why they were such a non-factor against Palpatine. Though they were also standing very close to each other during this encounter, making it easier for Palpatine to strike them down. Shaak Ti and Rahm Kota are more valid candidates. And technically I think Fisto was known to be more powerful then Kota. Any source suggesting this? Fisto is most proficient in the use of Form I and this is why he was not in a good position to hold his own against Palpatine. Form I is most effective against multiple adversaries but not so much against masters of other Forms. Edited December 15, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 These two don't have much showings either. They are experts of Jedi dueling arts but not powerhouses. Shaak Ti and Rahm Kota are more valid candidates. This isn't about powerhouses, this is about who is most underrated. Who gets dissed the most despite their abilities. Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar, and Saesee Tiin match that description perfectly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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