$100 in a couple clicks. SCARY.

[DarthTHC]

There has already been plenty of threads discussing wether or not cartel packs and the cartel market in general is gambling.

And the general consensus was that it is not gambling.

No more than buying 20 kid's meals at mcdonalds just to get the toy you want, is.

 

The Cartel Market is not gambling.

 

However, the random packs for sale in the Cartel Market are gambling.

 

As to the OP, one must purposefully enable the ingame purchase of Cartel Coins via this web site. If people don't want their kids spending $99.99 on nothing, then the simply shoudln't enable enable the feature. Also, they should talk to their kids, explain rules, follow up, be a parent, etc.

[DOHboy]

The problem though is people like you that ignore dictionary definitions. You found one that support your argument but completely ignore every other definition because you won't admit when you are wrong.

 

1gam·ble

verb \ˈgam-bəl\

 

: to play a game in which you can win or lose money or possessions : to bet money or other valuable things

This is not a game where you can "lose" money or possessions, there is not "betting"

: to risk losing (an amount of money) in a game or bet

Again not risking losing "money" in a game or bet

: to risk losing (something valuable or important) in order to do or achieve something

There is no "risk" of "losing" to achieve or do anything

gam·bledgam·bling

Full Definition of GAMBLE

intransitive verb

1

a : to play a game for money or property I am not playing a game for money

b : to bet on an uncertain outcome I am not "betting" on an uncertain outcome

2

: to stake something on a contingency : take a chance sure, I gamble every time I step foot on an airplane or light a match

transitive verb

1

: to risk by gambling : wager not "risking" anything aka no wager

2

: venture, hazard sure, i gamble flying, or swimming, or not chewing food properly

 

so in the above "dictionary" definition, how are these "gambling" given the words that are used? Since I ave taken the literal definition and used it in every context that it is given...

Edited December 12, 2013 by DOHboy

[SuperGrunt]

1val·ue noun \ˈval-(ˌ)yü\

: the amount of money that something is worth : the price or cost of something

 

Every item has a value. It may not be high, but it has value.

 

In order for those items to have value, you have to be able to sell them. Go to the GTN and look at the orange armors. Just from the Cartel Market ones, there are more armors than everyone in the game could possibly ever need. Especially considering once you get a full suit you just Collections it, and you have some for your companions, pay a few coins and you have them for alts too. Maybe I would agree with you if there was the ability to sell Cartel Market items to a vendor for credits, so that people were not constantly listing the armors for 100 credits and under just trying to get rid of them, only to get them mailed back to them 24 hours later.

 

With the packs, you're not 'winning' anything.

 

You're buying random things in a grab bag. Why is this a hard concept to grasp?

 

Why is it so hard for you to understand that there is a risk and reward system built into the Cartel Packs making it a gamble. While you can claim you are going to get something every time does not take away from the fact that it is a form of gambling. Using semantics to call it a grab bag does not negate the fact that someone with a gambling addiction could be feeding their addiction with the Cartel Packs. The point the OP was trying to make was not that they are or are not gambling, it's that they are feeding gambling addiction. The OP also isn't saying that BioWare/EA needs to do this so that someone will stop doing it. I am sure that the OP realizes that someone that is going to buy it, won't give a flying f about a clicky, and will just click on it. However that clicky will cover BioWare/EA in the unlikely event that some moron spent all his money and decides to hire some other moron with too much education (yes I did just call lawyers morons, I am not going to get into the morality of lawyers, because they have none for the most part) that sees the lack of that clicky as a legal loophole through which he can extort some money from BioWare/EA.

[SuperGrunt]

1gam·ble

verb \ˈgam-bəl\

 

: to play a game in which you can win or lose money or possessions : to bet money or other valuable things

This is not a game where you can "lose" money or possessions, there is not "betting"

: to risk losing (an amount of money) in a game or bet

Again not risking losing "money" in a game or bet

: to risk losing (something valuable or important) in order to do or achieve something

There is no "risk" of "losing" to achieve or do anything

gam·bledgam·bling

Full Definition of GAMBLE

intransitive verb

1

a : to play a game for money or property I am not playing a game for money

b : to bet on an uncertain outcome I am not "betting" on an uncertain outcome

2

: to stake something on a contingency : take a chance sure, I gamble every time I step foot on an airplane or light a match

transitive verb

1

: to risk by gambling : wager not "risking" anything aka no wager

2

: venture, hazard sure, i gamble flying, or swimming, or not chewing food properly

 

so in the above "dictionary" definition, how are these "gambling" given the words that are used? Since I ave taken the literal definition and used it in every context that it is given...

 

Actually you are betting on an uncertain outcome. You are betting your cartel coins against the possiblity that you will get something that you either want, can use, or can sell. That is not always true, sometimes you get the most common items in the set and can't sell them at all, plus vendors don't want them so you are SOL.

[Glowrod]

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/gambling

gam·ble (gmbl)

v. gam·bled, gam·bling, gam·bles

v.intr.

1.

a. To bet on an uncertain outcome, as of a contest.

b. To play a game of chance for stakes.

2. To take a risk in the hope of gaining an advantage or a benefit.

3. To engage in reckless or hazardous behavior: You are gambling with your health by continuing to smoke.

v.tr.

1. To put up as a stake in gambling; wager.

2. To expose to hazard; risk: gambled their lives in a dangerous rescue mission.

n.

1. A bet, wager, or other gambling venture.

2. An act or undertaking of uncertain outcome; a risk: I took a gamble that stock prices would rise.

 

According to this definition, buying cartel packs IS gambling. You are buying the pack, gambling that you will get something super-rare.

[DarthTHC]

The packs are gambling. The outcome is undetermined until the action is committed - it may be good, it may be neutral, it may be bad, it may be wildly good in ultra-rare occasions. This is different from a purchase transaction in which each party knows exactly what they will recieve.

 

They also trigger the same "gambling addiction" sensors as pulling the lever on the slot machine or hitting your hard 16 vs. the dealer's face-up King.

 

That doesn't mean the entire Cartel Market is gambling. It is not. The vast majority of it are basic purchase transactions. Only the random things are gambling.

 

That's all sort of irrelevant to the OP / topic though, which was holy smokes, I (or my kid!) can spend $100 in two clicks of the mouse! Well, they can do that just about anywhere on the Intrawebs. Be responsible. Be intelligent. If you're worried about what your kid is doing, be a parent.

Edited December 12, 2013 by DarthTHC

[HoboWithAStick]

Actually you are betting on an uncertain outcome. You are betting your cartel coins against the possiblity that you will get something that you either want, can use, or can sell. That is not always true, sometimes you get the most common items in the set and can't sell them at all, plus vendors don't want them so you are SOL.

 

I was just going to post this, It is a uncertain outcome. What makes it even worse is they don't even list all the possible combination of items you can get, this means there could be an infinite possibility of uncertain outcomes.

[RandomXChance]

I supplied arguments with that definition. Refute them, walk away, or accept the definition. And once again, I am not interested in legal definitions, because most legal definitions have as much in common with the real world as pink unicorns.

 

a

Since when is fishing a game of chance? Maybe if you don't know how to fish. If you do know how to fish, you're pretty much guaranteed a catch. Tell me, is there some expertise that can influence the random number generator built into the CM? Can you get "good" at spending money to get a guaranteed item of value you want?

 

Collectible cards are also gmbling. In the real world, again, not the world of lawyers.

 

 

 

So is living. After all, there is a chance that a meteor could hit you. There is also a chance the Universe might end, even though we haven't got room for enough decimal places and zeroes in it to express that chance.

 

But if I told you this: Here's an airplane you will fly. There is a 50% chance the engine will fail and you will crash and die. Now, what would you say, if you fly that plane, are you gambling with your life? And CM chances for items of value are much, much lower than 50%.

 

The nature of any gambling activity is such that the chances are stacked against the gambler, but the potential gain is enough for that gambler to attempt the activity anyway. There is no way for the gambler to significantly influence their chances of winning. If it fits those two criteria, it is gambling.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The only reason that language works as a means of communication is that collectively we have agreed on meanings for the various words. Once you start overly broadening the meaning of a word, it looses any real definition (see: Troll).

 

I agreed with you that collectible card games and virtual packs have a gambling aspect. In both cases you are guaranteed to get items of some value, but the chance of getting the rare items you are buying the pack for is small.

 

It was decided decades ago that collectible card games are not gambling. The law IS the real world (although some laws do get strange), just try explaining how going 100 mph is ok " in the real world" to that traffic cop.

Edited December 12, 2013 by RandomXChance

[DimmuJanKaarl]

The Cartel Market is not gambling.

 

However, the random packs for sale in the Cartel Market are gambling.

 

As to the OP, one must purposefully enable the ingame purchase of Cartel Coins via this web site. If people don't want their kids spending $99.99 on nothing, then the simply shoudln't enable enable the feature. Also, they should talk to their kids, explain rules, follow up, be a parent, etc.

 

I tip my hat to you as someone who *actually* responsed to my original post instead of beating someone up. hopefully more people follow your lead and actually speak to the spirit and intent of the op instead of continuing to try to debase and degrade it with non-constructive arguments on semantics and personal attacks.

 

to your post, I appreciate what you've said about parents controlling their kids, but I actually was talking as well and mostly about independant adults; that certainly doesn't lessen, however, the value of your point, which is a very important one in its own right.

[DOHboy]

Actually you are betting on an uncertain outcome. You are betting your cartel coins against the possiblity that you will get something that you either want, can use, or can sell. That is not always true, sometimes you get the most common items in the set and can't sell them at all, plus vendors don't want them so you are SOL.

 

but you can still use them,and they do sell...not for much but put them up for 1C and see what happens.

 

as for "betting" now we are no longer defining "gambling" but now "betting"

 

: an agreement in which people try to guess what will happen and the person who guesses wrong has to give something (such as money) to the person who guesses right There is no exchange of money based on the outcome, this does not apply to our case

 

: the money or other valuable thing that you could win or lose in a bet you do not "lose" or "win" anything, again does not hold

 

: a choice made by thinking about what will probably happen what will "probably" happen. well I know i'm purchasing 5 items, some of which could be super rare, but typically will just get 5 items or something i dont really need/want...not really a "bet" since I know what i am purchasing

[Lunafox]

Gambling is defined as betting money with a real chance of gaining nothing in return. Slot machines are gambling devices. Casinos operate on a 'gambling' approach. Many people enter with a pocket full of money and leave with nothing, or owing money to the casino in the worst case.

 

What we deal with in TOR is a 'grab bag' concept. You spend real money to get a certain number of items that you're guaranteed to get in return for your Cartel Coins.

 

There is no risk whatsoever of walking away empty handed. You 'will' get a certain number of items, with some of them being rarer than others. Each pack has it listed.

 

So...no. This is not gambling.

 

With the quality of most of the items you get, you may as well be walking away with nothing. I would much rather see the cool things available for a fixed price to buy outright.

[DOHboy]

AE should be sued because their show "storage wars" is feeding gambling addiction to those purchasing the items.

 

You open a container and see there are 5 boxes... you can pay according to what you think the boxes maybe "worth" if you pay more than what you can sell them for, you are an idiot. If I sell them for less than what I could have sold them for I am an idiot.

 

But my guess is, they know more about what they can sell it for and more often than not will make me out to be an idiot than me ripping them off. since I am not forcing them to buy something at a price they do not feel comfortable paying.

 

If you dont' think 5 items is worth the 320CC then don't buy it, since obviously you are the idiot at that point.

 

If I buy it, and find somethign worth MORE Than 320CC well obviously EA is the idiot.

 

but more than likely we both got equal value and are happy with our purchases and go about our business like rational adults, or we can come on here and scream about RNG all we want and QQ about "gambling" take your pick.

[SuperGrunt]

but you can still use them,and they do sell...not for much but put them up for 1C and see what happens.

 

as for "betting" now we are no longer defining "gambling" but now "betting"

 

: an agreement in which people try to guess what will happen and the person who guesses wrong has to give something (such as money) to the person who guesses right There is no exchange of money based on the outcome, this does not apply to our case

 

: the money or other valuable thing that you could win or lose in a bet you do not "lose" or "win" anything, again does not hold

 

: a choice made by thinking about what will probably happen what will "probably" happen. well I know i'm purchasing 5 items, some of which could be super rare, but typically will just get 5 items or something i dont really need/want...not really a "bet" since I know what i am purchasing

 

I just went to the internet and looked up gamble on thesaurus.com and guess what the first word was . . . yep it was bet. So gambling is betting is gambling. Here is the link if you are interested in trying to fact check me.

[DOHboy]

I just went to the internet and looked up gamble on thesaurus.com and guess what the first word was . . . yep it was bet. So gambling is betting is gambling. Here is the link if you are interested in trying to fact check me.

 

Kitties are lions.

 

I looked up lion and under its definition is cat. A synonym for cat, is kitty.

 

Thus all kitties are lions.

 

Thats called circular reasoning...

Edited December 12, 2013 by DOHboy

[RandomXChance]

I just went to the internet and looked up gamble on thesaurus.com and guess what the first word was . . . yep it was bet. So gambling is betting is gambling. Here is the link if you are interested in trying to fact check me.

 

Just keep in mind that synonymous do not always mean exactly the same.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synonym

"Synonyms are words with the same or similar meanings."

[branmakmuffin]

so I noticed the new option when buying cc's in-game: 14,500cc for $99.99. I find this to be really scary. maybe those of us who never buy cc's don't think it's a big deal, but imo buying cm packs IS gambling just without a potential for rl cash returns

Not this again. You get exactly what you pay for. There is no chance to lose your "stake." Therefore, not gambling.

 

Now, let's go find us another tempest in a teacup.

[DOHboy]

Not this again. You get exactly what you pay for. There is no chance to lose your "stake." Therefore, not gambling.

 

Now, let's go find us another tempest in a teacup.

 

we did. its now moved to kitties are lions.

[RandomXChance]

we did. its now moved to kitties are lions.

...and I would much rather discuss kitties. So cute.

[Stoofa]

You can call it what you want, at the end of the day most people are going to agree that this is gambling. Hell almost every single talkshow/Reviewer personality calls these things "Lottery Boxes".

 

A guy that used to be in my guild spent over $1000 bucks on these packs, does he have a grab bag addiction or a gambling addiction?

 

Please talk "from I" - you do not talk on behalf of or represent the majority of people on these forums.

You may agree that this gambling, however there are many people who do not. The only person you can speak for is "I".

[DOHboy]

...and I would much rather discuss kitties. So cute.

 

lions are not cute, thus kitties are not cute. We can do this all day...

 

We might have a better discussion on a mobius strip as a metaphor of these forums..circular but not

[RandomXChance]

lions are not cute, thus kitties are not cute. We can do this all day...

 

We might have a better discussion on a mobius strip as a metaphor of these forums..circular but not

 

+1 Best forum reply I have seen in a long time. Some sense of humor is a refreshing breeze.

[MillionsKNives]

I just went to the internet and looked up gamble on thesaurus.com and guess what the first word was . . . yep it was bet. So gambling is betting is gambling. Here is the link if you are interested in trying to fact check me.

 

So if he asserts that it's not gambling, and you say it is because it's betting, and then he goes on to assert that it's not betting either, what exactly does showing that they're synonyms do? If he asserts that it's neither gambling nor betting, showing that they are the same thing (which being a synonym alone does not prove) does not refute that.

 

So...congrats on your find?

[branmakmuffin]

You can call it what you want, at the end of the day most people are going to agree that this is gambling. Hell almost every single talkshow/Reviewer personality calls these things "Lottery Boxes".

You can call it "gambling" until you're old and gray, but that won't make it gambling.

 

A guy that used to be in my guild spent over $1000 bucks on these packs, does he have a grab bag addiction or a gambling addiction?

And your point is ...?

[HoloTweed]

He has poor impulse control and zero self-control. But, I guarantee you that he has several Cargo Bays full of crap in return for his $1000.

 

He didn't risk a single dollar. He got exactly what he paid for. When there's no risk, it's not gambling. Sorry.

 

I think where they are missing the gray area is LEGAL DEFINITION. When you gamble in a casino (or a lottery) you give away your money. You are not buying anything ("hope" doesn't really qualify as a good or service). You "hope" that you "win," in which case you will receive money back - hopefully a larger amount than you spent.

 

When you BUY a grab bag, you are buying digital goods. You are guaranteed to receive something in return for your money. That is why grab bags don't fit the legal definition of gambling.

 

However, you are "gambling" your money in hopes that you receive a better object. That's a colloquial use of the word "gambling." It doesn't make it an incorrect use, but it's not a LEGAL use, which is the only thing EA needs to be concerned about.

 

Honestly, it wouldn't matter if they put up a disclaimer or warning before making a $100 purchase of coins. If an addict has latched onto SWTOR as a fix, a disclaimer isn't going to stop him any more than a disclaimer on the door of a casino. We cannot sterilize our living and financial environments to protect those with addictions at the expense of penalizing everyone else.

[DOHboy]

So if he asserts that it's not gambling, and you say it is because it's betting, and then he goes on to assert that it's not betting either, what exactly does showing that they're synonyms do? If he asserts that it's neither gambling nor betting, showing that they are the same thing (which being a synonym alone does not prove) does not refute that.

 

So...congrats on your find?

 

he asserts that "the wheels on the bus go round and round"....