The REAL juggernaut concerns thread.

[KeyboardNinja]

And Saber Throw in tank tree needs a similar threat generation to the Shadow force pull. An opening threat spike would be great. Right now, if the dps leaps around the same GCD as you they COULD pull threat .

 

That would be great. As things stand, I generally open without Saber Throw just to avoid that case. As long as the boss actually hits me once or twice, rage isn't really an issue.

[lordbadtamaru]

Imho the vigilance tree needs the PVE set bonus BUILT into the tree.

 

I had a threat drop/survivability help idea i posted earlier, not sure how to quote it so i just copied and pasted. (f2p noob don't hate )

 

I had an idea that could help all of us overall in our pursuit as a Guardian dps, AND as tanks.

 

My idea is, what if Focused Defense was free, applied DR, and had the same effect, but NO THREAT DROP. This makes it usable for a TANK AND DPS cooldown, and because Focused Defense has self heals, it helps with overall guardian survivability across the board, plus if turned into a PASSIVE heal rather than a REACTIVE heal, it would be quite nice.

 

Instead, rework Guardian Leap.

 

"Leaping to a friendly ally instantly applies damage reduction to the target and reduces his/her threat slightly. In addition, Guardian Leaping to an enemy instantly reduces your threat and grants 20 percent damage reduction. Gives 3 focus. If leaping to an enemy, Guardian Leap does not respect the GCD."

 

Solves mobility, threat drop, and gives you an extra leap, AND GRANTS pvp survivability in a limited way.

 

Also as far as flat dps potential for the middle tree, wonder if 30 percent alacrity tied into the stance could be fun. I want to have to work for higher apm than just 37...

 

could help with master striking uptime, resource regen (have more filler space) and would just be plain fun

 

But seriously the tree needs buffs.

 

Autocrit Dispatch again anyone?

 

keening can go back to combat sent and hug its real master, hand of justice!

 

Whoever is jugg guardian rep better not pull a batman vanishing act like the last ones though...

[lordbadtamaru]

salivates at saber throw giving 8k threat...

[Maudril]

I would like to start of saying I am not a PVP'er, but Vengeance's issues in PVP are just as blatant as PVE I think. Above all I find a spec fun to play based on the smoothness and consistency of their rotation. I posted something similar in the changes thread that the devs supposedly use for feedback.

 

Their DPS suffers from some insane inconsistency, an asymetrical rotation that gives us a lot of time puttering around, and savagery stacks that are just wasted. The spec is just *reliant* on a ravage reset proc that has a low proc chance and is tied wit tho abilities with real long cooldowns. The proc idea is nice perhaps, but the spec needs to be less reliant on the proc.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is what I propose to fix Vengeance DPS:

 

Chage the Rampage so that it instead procs Ravage to channel twice as fast, and the talent (not the proc) cuts the cooldown by 5/10/15s (to give Ravage consistency, while maintaining the proc buff. Except the proc just makes the Ravage harder to avoid in again increases DPS without the spec being as reliant on it proccing)

-

Veangeance reduces the cooldown of Force Scream by 2/4/6 seconds. (so Jugs can more consistently take advantage of Savagery without wasting stacks)

-

Shatter has a cooldown of 9s (for a more symmetrical and consistent rotation)

-

Buff Enraged Defense Somehow! (saw too many good ideas for buffing Enraged defense, couldnt decide which idea I like most XD)

 

This will make the juggernaut a lot more consistent and symmetrical, and reduce a lot of its pitter putter time which will in turn make its resource management (or lack thereof) a more glaring issue. Might be an excuse to give this spec some more passive defense... say deadly reprisal has better AOE damage reduction than a marauder in addition to rage generation? (seriously, why would a Marauder have that and a Juggernaut not? Arent Jugs supposed to be the more defensive one?). Or if you dont want resouce management to become an issue, make Improved Sundering Assault reduce the cooldown of Sundering Assault by 2/4 seconds

 

I admit my bias, I like a nice flowing rotation. This might be enough of a buff to make them competitive DPS wise, but I would also like to see more passive defensive buffs, enough to make them more noticeably more survivable than their marauder counterparts. This applies to Rage as well.

I wanna know what all you PVP players think of my proposed buffs XD

[ConCube]

Well, I think, if I understood you correctly there, 1.5 sec casttime + root on a 15 sec CD is way too overpowered. (Personally I would love the animation though ) What about 15 sec CD and a 2.5 casttime? Additionally, regarding your first idea, you have to consider the following:

 

PVP: you charge in an undergeared Sorc

 

You would deal f*king 4k + 4k + 8k + 7k = 23k damage in like 3 seconds (VT at the end, if everything crits) Where has the sorc gone?

[lordbadtamaru]

Having Master Strike on a default 15 second cooldown would be insane, probably TOO insane.

 

If you needed to overhead slash and plasma brand to build up stacks or reduce the cooldown aka focuss style by 5 seconds an attack, that could be fun.

 

The rotation could become Saber Throw, Leap In, Master Strike,-3 seconds Plasma Brand,-1.5,-5, Overhead Slash,-1.5,-5 Master Strike.

 

You see here, in this, you technically can master strike a LOT, since time is going by AS you are triggering your burns. If plasma brand and overhead slash each reduced the cooldown by 5 seconds, we could potentially still have back to back master strikes, as Master Strike channels for 3 seconds, the two GCDS from Plasma and Overhead are 3 seconds together, and the overhead and plasma talent proccing reduction on cooldown means 16 seconds of cooldown gone.

 

This means that you actually did a master strike about 3 seconds after the original master strike ended. You still have an artificial lockout from the proc due to the natural cooldowns of overhead slash and plasma brand (The same 9 seconds we have right now and 12, and BTW the old cooldown used to be 9, and it needs to be 9 again)

 

The above focus proccing of master strike probably is overkill and sounds funky to me balance wise.

 

I personally like having a Watchman Merciless Slash Mechanic, where Overhead Slash, Plasma Brand, and Blade Storm have a 100 percent chance to grant 1 stack of Zen Strike. Each stack of Zen Strike reduces the cooldown on Master Strike by 1/2.5/5. Stacks up to 3 times.

 

Now I pretty sure in this new world with a 15 second master strike cooldown, but burns would become priority, as there is no chance for a 100 percent back to back master strike. And guess what? That is FINE.

 

For burst, we simply steal some ideas from the olden Vigilance.

 

Keening/Destroyer is now removed, and replaced with Calm with the Storm/Executioner.

 

Calm With the Storm and Executioner increase the damage of your elemental Damage effects by 12 percent. In addition, Dispatch has its critical chance raised to 75 percent, and its focus cost reduced to zero.

 

So in essence, we trade a dispatch pre execute, copied shamelessly from combat, and gain our OWN, ORIGINAL class defining utility in both PVE and PVP that we lost in 2.0. We in essence, get an execute that practically on its own brings us up by at LEAST 100 dps, RNG fixes that improve the consistency of this DPS, and with a minor buff to burns like the above, we gain at least 50 dps. with focused/enraged defense getting a fix.

 

For PVP, its burst. We get a more reliable albeit slower to ramp up Master Strike. Get more elemental Damage. anyone under 30 percent is dead to you. instantly. Imagine seeing 9k crits the moment someone hit 30 percent? A-M-A-Z-I-N-G.

 

At any rate, whoever becomes the rep, has a lot of concern amassing to do.

 

We can't fit all our stuff in 3 questions.

[lordbadtamaru]

Oh and the Root? dump it. replace with an 8 second unremitting.

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

The main problems with Jugg tank is,

 

1. Saber Throw Sucks ***: Give all Juggs a 0-30m Saber Throw... Marauders get Dual Saber Throw which is A. An AOE, and B. 0-30m So why cant our Saber Throw be the same?

 

2. Not enough stat budget for Defence Shield AND absorb. We need more talents that boost our Defence Chance. That would free up our stat budget for more Shield and Absorb.

 

3. Crushing Blow: Sometimes if I use Crushing Blow, my Revenge is on CD and I cant take advantage of it, Make Crushing Blow Reset the CD of Revenge.

 

4. Not quite enough damage: I know Tanks aren't built to deal damage but, Jugg suffers from low damage. Boost the damage on Force Choke, Revenge, Backhand, and Crushing Blow by a little, and ill be happy.

[lordbadtamaru]

Juggs don't need more damage for tanking, they just need a threat spike like shadows. Give Saber throw an opening 8k threat but keep the distance lockout, unless you want shadows able to use force pull on cooldown without having to move.

 

As for stat budget, meh. I'll leave that to KBN, but I think its unnecessary.

 

The last one you said was QOL imho. Not worth making a huge deal about.

 

As for our 3 questions, what would we want them to be?

 

3 questions may not size it up properly.

 

I propose:

 

General: Master Strike Merciless Slash style RNG change, general lack of dps in execute phase that effects pvp and PVE

 

PVE: Focused Defense Cost.

 

PVP: survivability and mobility.

[ConCube]

Something that has come to my mind very recently:

 

What about removing the Rage cost of Chilling Scream in the baseline skill Decimate additional to its origin effect?

 

PvE: Not really essential, unless you need to slow down massive amounts of adds (potential valuable group utility!)

 

PvP: Extremely essential and very valuable! You can just spam it but keep in mind that its not off GCD!

 

Well, I would even go a step further: I would replace Shien Form's (Rage honestly has enough mobility) effect to increase overall movementspeed by 15% with the following:

 

For every enemy effected by your Chilling Scream you gain 1 stack of 'Furious Hatred'. Every stack increases your movement speed by 6% for 15 seconds. Stacks up to 5 times.

 

What do you think?

Edited December 10, 2013 by ConCube

[Maudril]

Well, I think, if I understood you correctly there, 1.5 sec casttime + root on a 15 sec CD is way too overpowered. (Personally I would love the animation though ) What about 15 sec CD and a 2.5 casttime? Additionally, regarding your first idea, you have to consider the following:

 

PVP: you charge in an undergeared Sorc

 

You would deal f*king 4k + 4k + 8k + 7k = 23k damage in like 3 seconds (VT at the end, if everything crits) Where has the sorc gone?

 

(On an offnote: Wouldnt the sorc be kiting and peeling the crap out of you, especially as perhaps a Corruption/Madness hybrid?)

 

True, trying to solve too many problems at once there. One of the things I was keeping in mind is the relative infrequency of the proc to half the channel time. The amount of ravages that will benefit from it will be... slightly more than half >.< And the frequency of the proc would be boosted slightly by decreasing the cooldown on shatter.

 

Yikes.

So perhaps decrease the proc chances of Rampage slightly? Or editing the procced casttime a little longer, but I think perhaps 2.5s may be a little too long. The point was to make the procced ravages VERY hard to avoid (one big complaint in PVP even with the root in place) You know the topic better than I do, so gonna trust your word on it, but still wanna make sure you take all this in consideration!

 

would definitely prefer the decreased proc chances though, that animation would be epic

 

Thanks for input, would not have caught that.

[lordbadtamaru]

Well, 2.3s channel would be fine, anything more is overkill imho.

[Elyx]

Consider all sides of the equation, otherwise we end up with class changes that benefit one group and yield absolutely nothing for another (eg the Ravage root, which helps a bit in PvP and does jack squat for PvE)

 

The last thing I want to do, is make intelligent people my enemies. I apologize if my desire to focus on arena gameplay came across as elitist. By all means we need to pool our resources and work together for maximum mutual benefit.

 

Please allow me to edit the initial paragraphs and allow me to invite you pve players to compile your data with us arena jugs. I beg you.

 

Thank you Undying. It wasn't a rejection of your ideas as much as how your initial quote came across I greatly appreciate that you cleared that up. I definitely have no issues with PvP and the need for changes. and your right....great discussion so far in this thread.

 

quick comments on Ravage:

 

I've seen some great ideas in other threads, my compilation of these ideas would be 1) change Rampage to a CD reduction every time we hit one of the mentioned skills (instead of the proc reset), and 2) add to a talent in the tree the ability to reset the CD every time you use Enrage. This would make the use of ravage a regular use instead of emergency procs (that rarely line up well), and also gives you a bit of extra burst on demand when needed. leap/sunder/ravage/enrage/ravage. or whatever.

Edited December 11, 2013 by Elyx

[UndyingHadyn]

 

quick comments on Ravage:

 

I've seen some great ideas in other threads, my compilation of these ideas would be 1) change Rampage to a CD reduction every time we hit one of the mentioned skills (instead of the proc reset), and 2) add to a talent in the tree the ability to reset the CD every time you use Enrage. This would make the use of ravage a regular use instead of emergency procs (that rarely line up well), and also gives you a bit of extra burst on demand when needed. leap/sunder/ravage/enrage/ravage. or whatever.

 

 

See now, I like this as well. By knowing that your impale/shatter/force scream attacks can each reduce the ravage cooldown, a jug can then plan and set up attacks better. In a sence, the cooldown would be predictable, but would also be an exclamation of a player's ability to manage rage resources.

 

Having enrage actively reset ravage as well, totally awesome. That ability should be available to all jug trees, not Vengeance exclusively.

[UndyingHadyn]

 

 

 

Calm With the Storm and Executioner increase the damage of your elemental Damage effects by 12 percent. In addition, Dispatch has its critical chance raised to 75 percent, and its focus cost reduced to zero.

 

So in essence, we trade a dispatch pre execute, copied shamelessly from combat, and gain our OWN, ORIGINAL class defining utility in both PVE and PVP that we lost in 2.0. We in essence, get an execute that practically on its own brings us up by at LEAST 100 dps, RNG fixes that improve the consistency of this DPS, and with a minor buff to burns like the above, we gain at least 50 dps. with focused/enraged defense getting a fix.

 

For PVP, its burst. We get a more reliable albeit slower to ramp up Master Strike. Get more elemental Damage. anyone under 30 percent is dead to you. instantly. Imagine seeing 9k crits the moment someone hit 30 percent? A-M-A-Z-I-

 

 

I don't mind this either. It's understandable why they removed crit chance on dispatch, in their eyes it was too strong to use above 30%.....but then again, no one said having random unpredictable NON-CRIT vicious throws was a great idea either.

 

Seriously. Non crit vicious throws will hit the same as vicious slash, not something to write home about now is it. Same old song....." If your vengeance strikes crit, your opponents will sh*t, if your crits don't line up, game over, t*ts up."

[lordbadtamaru]

I liked the old crit chance far more.

 

And keening, meh, it crits, its good, it doesn't, its just filler.

 

If keening autocrit it would not be entirely unbalanced in pve, we'd be pretty much a Sentinel in DPS, maybe even ahead \o/

[Jahar]

And Saber Throw in tank tree needs a similar threat generation to the Shadow force pull. An opening threat spike would be great. Right now, if the dps leaps around the same GCD as you they COULD pull threat .

 

/signed

[Arlanon]

I have a Pyro Tech alt, and somehow the free Rail Shot CD reset procs EVERY 4th CD. I literally count to 4 and start over. Even though the talents state (Flame Burst has a 30% chance or Rail Shot has a 60% chance to proc) they somehow seem to be additive. Like if you do Flame Burst followed by another Flame Burst, or a Rocket Punch, you are GUARANTEED the free Rail Shot proc.

 

And none of it has ridiculous 20 second internal CDs, or reliant on two attacks with long CDs. You can do it all with basic Flame Burst every 6 seconds. I'll give you a very basic example here. You can go:

 

Flame Burst > Rapid Shots > Flame Burst > Rail Shot

 

over and over and over again. How is this possible? Flame Burst has a 30% chance to proc the free Rail shot, and the first Flame Burst is locked out due to the 6 second internal Cooldown. But the second Flame Burst will proc Rail Shot EVERY TIME.

 

If Vengeance had what Pyro is smoking, I'd be content. Like have Shatter and Impale each have a 50% chance to proc Ravage, and the effect stacks twice. Maybe it only procs at 100%. Then if it needed balance, you could simply modify the number of stacks. Like say 3 stacks at 33%, or 4 stacks at 25%, etc.

Edited December 12, 2013 by Arlanon

[Jakev-]

Increase Tank Survivability (Not just Immortal Assassin Tank and Shieldtech)

 

This is what 4v4 teams do to tanks, DPS Hybrid "Tanks" DPS geared tanks Fully tank geared Tank specced tanks..

 

http://www.twitch.tv/insomniaq123/c/3348740

 

#gay

[ShadowMudkip]

I'd definitely like to see more base survivability for the Immortal tree. As it stands, they are the worst tank for arenas by a wide margin if you measure by damage taken, and double-Jugg is a noticeably poor combination for any high end PvE. Juggs do have the best defensive CDs in the game, which helps, but assassins are only slightly weaker in this area overall and their base line survivability is miles ahead.

 

Buffing shield and absorb as I suggested in the tank balance thread would be a significant change, since it radically changes the gearing and damage profile of a Jugg tank, as well as increases their survivability by quite a bit, but I think it would be reasonably well measured. It's tricky, because in PvE, a Jugg tank can run with a tank of another class to pick up the 5% damage debuff, which is a significant boost to mitigation. That doesn't happen in arenas unless you run with an annihilation marauder (lol). So, if we buff juggs to be balanced for arenas and double-Jugg tank composition in PvE, we make them OP when paired with a non-Jugg tank in PvE. Unfortunately, if we balance them for non-Jugg pairing in PvE, then arenas and double Jugg suffers.

 

Overall, this is a hard problem. Buffs are definitely needed, but they should be quite carefully considered.

 

Balancing around arenas is tricky business, because arenas benefit the classes that work well with a smaller group. Buffing their shield chance and absorb a bit could help. Truthfully, I feel Jugs are a bit ahead in terms of survivability than assassins/shadows. Theoretically, an assassin with the 2.5 changes should come out ahead of the juggernaut, however, in arenas and warzone pvp, the 12 seconds of dark protection fall off to easily.

[Racter]

Balancing around arenas is tricky business, because arenas benefit the classes that work well with a smaller group. Buffing their shield chance and absorb a bit could help. Truthfully, I feel Jugs are a bit ahead in terms of survivability than assassins/shadows. Theoretically, an assassin with the 2.5 changes should come out ahead of the juggernaut, however, in arenas and warzone pvp, the 12 seconds of dark protection fall off to easily.

 

Sin tanks don't even take those talents in PVP anyway, at least not the successful ones.

[UndyingHadyn]

Increase Tank Survivability (Not just Immortal Assassin Tank and Shieldtech)

 

This is what 4v4 teams do to tanks, DPS Hybrid "Tanks" DPS geared tanks Fully tank geared Tank specced tanks..

 

http://www.twitch.tv/insomniaq123/c/3348740

 

#gay

 

Oh I know, the other tank classes have much greater dps potential, and much more survivability. Ferfukksakes, Turrican almost out-dpsed his marauders in that match, and had nearly as much protection. He's not that good, although I'm sure he'd like to think he is lmao... It's the class.

 

Ion pt's...same thing.

 

Juggernauts definitely need some attention. Problem is, the developers need only to keenly modify a few things, for we don't want to become ridiculously overpowered. Then we'd have no self-respect... a condition much like our dps sintanks and Ion dps pt counterparts currently suffer from.

[Racter]

Oh I know, the other tank classes have much greater dps potential, and much more survivability. Ferfukksakes, Turrican almost out-dpsed his marauders in that match, and had nearly as much protection. He's not that good, although I'm sure he'd like to think he is lmao... It's the class.

 

Ion pt's...same thing.

 

Juggernauts definitely need some attention. Problem is, the developers need only to keenly modify a few things, for we don't want to become ridiculously overpowered. Then we'd have no self-respect... a condition much like our dps sintanks and Ion dps pt counterparts currently suffer from.

 

Did you really just call Turrican bad? Rofl. All your opinions are instantly void from that one comment.

[sensiblepoast]

Nice circle stroking in this thread. Go play a vanguard tank and see how your juggernaut feels in comparison.

Increase Tank Survivability (Not just Immortal Assassin Tank and Shieldtech)

This is what 4v4 teams do to tanks, DPS Hybrid "Tanks" DPS geared tanks Fully tank geared Tank specced tanks..

That's the bottom of the story. Real tanks are a liability, you are almost always better off with a hybrid "tank".. And Bioware thinks it's fine. Maybe their metrics tell them hybrid dps "tanks" are tanks...

Edited December 12, 2013 by sensiblepoast

[Racter]

Nice circle stroking in this thread. Go play a vanguard tank and see how your juggernaut feels in comparison.

 

That's the bottom of the story. Real tanks are a liability, you are almost always better off with a hybrid "tank".. And Bioware thinks it's fine.

 

That is not true anymore on Pot5.