The REAL juggernaut concerns thread.

[UndyingHadyn]

This thread will be the complete list of the current juggernaut dynamics, the good and the bad.

 

I'd like to breakdown the juggernaut condition within all contexts. Know this... there are no valid reasons as to why the PVE conditions regarding parses in relations to other classes, must be the essential catalyst for changes to our class. Those concerns are valid however, but we need to focus on more substantial gains, beyond increased damage potential. In essence, can the perceived dps increase exist in the form of a shield break ability?...our dps isn't increased, but we create a window for its potential to run its course.

 

I want us all to illustrate solutions to the current challenges that juggernauts face within arena gameplay. Face it, arenas are here to stay, and it is through arenas, that the developers will be creating adjustments to classes, as well as pve. We have excellent pve jugs out there, we need them to compile their data, to assist us pvper's achieve the same goals. PVE enables the option for the professionals to analyze and compare our peak, our "ceiling". The data and ideas from these pve players is essential as well.

 

 

 

IMMORTAL

 

I feel the spec performs well. I'm not experienced enough to debate otherwise, for I play either Vengeance or Rage. We need experienced jug tanks to submit their concerns here.

 

 

 

 

VENGEANCE

 

Very gear reliant. Very RNG reliant. Same old story. We need experienced jug Vengeance concerns brought here.

 

 

 

 

RAGE

 

Excellent damage potential, but suffers greatly with survivability. There is a disparity between the damage that we can theoretically do, and the actual damage that gets applied. We need to share more experiences and ideas here for this spec.

 

 

 

 

 

GENERAL

 

I'll play it like an old record that won't go out of style, but we need "jug-specific" abilities that can counter the ridiculous survivability traits that the majority of the other classes possess in arenas. I'm talking about shield-break mechanisms, extended durations for jug taunts, and jug-specific dps applications (internal bleeds on force push for example). We need to establish some common ground with the rest of the other classes that are currently queueing up for arenas.

 

I'm not suggesting that we need more damage potential, nor do I think that would solve anything. The passive damage reductions our enemies possess, would supercede and negate all of that increased potential anyway. We need to establish the groundwork, HERE, for new attributes that will give juggernauts of all specs a better chance in all "arenas" of gameplay.

Edited December 9, 2013 by UndyingHadyn

[UndyingHadyn]

Reserved.

[KeyboardNinja]

Aside from the false battle between PvE balance and PvP balance to which you devote two paragraphs, I think this is a good thread. PvE concerns are not dichotomous with PvP concerns. Different emphasis, certainly (e.g. Rage is underpowered in PvE and reviled for insane damage levels in PvP), but that doesn't make them opposites.

 

PvP tends to suss out burst, setup time, mechanical counters and survivability concerns, with a lesser focus on control and escapes. PvE susses out sustain, burst, and pure theoretical limits, with a lesser focus on setup time and survivability. Most of those points are shared, and none of them are really in conflict.

 

Consider all sides of the equation, otherwise we end up with class changes that benefit one group and yield absolutely nothing for another (eg the Ravage root, which helps a bit in PvP and does jack squat for PvE).

[ConCube]

Hi,

My second Main is a Vengeance Jugg I (almost) only PvP with. I'm definately no expert regarding the class but I have impressions I am willing to share.

 

In my opinion Vengeance Jugg should be designed around not offering the damage potential a Marauder does but a much better survivability (if not both survivability and utility, even though Intervention is a step in the right direction).

In addition I've been noticing that I get low on health too quickly when I get fokussed by several players. A possible solution would be to give us a stackable buff like this:

 

Maybe change 'Pooled Hatred' to:

 

... In addition, every Stack grants you 5% AoE damage reduction. Stacks up to 5 times. Lasts 15 seconds.

[Elyx]

unfortunately OP, no matter how articulate or intelligent your post is, it's still a PvP elitist thread.

 

1) you name it and preface it as if PvP were the "real" game in need of changes. I love how you don't specify PvP in the title...you don't find out until a few paragraphs in.

 

2) you trivialize the PvE aspect of the game (naming someone that I've never heard of as a mentor, no disrespect to him , but it hardly qualifies you to speak for the public)

 

3) you then indicate that arena is here to stay, and that somehow qualifies it as having priority over other aspects of the game for change.

 

Hate to break your bubble, but Arena is a small aspect of PvP. and PvP is a small aspect of the game. especially now that space battles are out. hardly qualifies it as getting special consideration. Id probably respect your opinion more if you didn't trivialize the opinions of the populace at large in your post before breaking down the changes you want for your narrowly focused playstyle. However, after over a decade (and more) in the MMO world (both PvP and PvE), that is something I've come to expect from PvP elitists. One of the reasons I don't play PvP anymore.

 

You need to change the name of the thread to "The REAL hardcore Arena PvP players concerns thread". Because that is all it is.

Edited December 9, 2013 by Elyx

[Racter]

Enraged Defense no longer costs or consumes rage and is now on a 30s CD.

 

A. Copy deafening defense directly from Vengeance over to the Through Passion talent.

 

B. Rework Seething Hatred. Now gives 30% surge bonus to Force Scream and/or Impale/Shatter/Ravage.

 

C. Rework Unyielding, 30% AOE DR.

 

Until they do something with DPS DCDs or immo's damage juggs don't have a spot in arenas atm. Just my opinion but I haven't lost a single match (and as best as I can remember not even a round) against a team with a Jugg of any spec in team 4s. Solo queue is a different story but I would run smash for either. Vengeance doesn't do enough burst or sustained to justify a spot at the moment.

 

If/when they take the rage cost of enraged defense away and drop it down to a 30s cd, get rid of the dots for vengeance and make it all front loaded damage it might be viable at that point. Alternatively, they could just increase the dot damage by a chunk, or add a surge bonus for Scream and/or Ravage..

 

Do the same thing for the rage tree (with the 15% dr from vengeance tree as well) and both would probably be viable. Not as much burst as a carnage mara but overall better pressure for Vengeance and higher damage but a little less survivability for Rage. Would probably prefer a smash jugg over a smash marauder if they were to do this, as guard+ having a push, spammable AOE snare and intercede could probably outweigh the survivability gap.

 

Tanks do way too little damage compared to dark maul or AP (or even full tankasin for that matter). They also don't have access to 30% AOE DR. No single target burst (dark maul) and no spread pressure (AP) = no reason to bring a Jugg tank at the moment.

 

FWIW PVE people, the surge bonus to scream would put the top Vengeance parse around 3350. Rage DPS could be fixed by increasing the damage of the energy proc on Vicious Slash by about double and/or increasing the damage of Crush.

 

And really Elyx? The class has a viable PVE DPS spec and is arguably the best tank in the game right now, what is troubling you about Jugg PVE? Currently the class has no place in arena whatsoever, I don't see how that wouldn't take precedence over PVE changes.

Edited December 9, 2013 by Racter

[x-Starkiller-x]

Wow undying! I'm very honored. As to everyone else who may not know me, I'm Triand. I made my juggy exactly 30 secs after the servers went live and have been playing the class ( mostly in PvP) ever since. I have a youtube channel with several SWTOR vids ( and some others) here: https://www.youtube.com/user/ison117 . On top of that, I do have at least one of each Advanced Class on Imp side at 55. SO I can kind of get a view on balance.

 

To start, I'll make some comments on what you've said here...

 

This thread will be the complete list of the current juggernaut dynamics, the good and the bad. I personally don't want to win a popularity contest, but I want someone who has in-game credentials to re-enforce what I write. On that regard, I'd ask the juggernauts who are currently active in arenas to step forward. Namely I call on Triand.

 

Triand has been like a mentor in the past. It was he who shed light on tanking dynamics for me (pre 2.0), and taught me how to become more fluid with our class. If he would step up and share his insights, well I'd be honored. In the same breath, perhaps our top-rated jug should be our new rep, hmm?

 

I'd like to breakdown the juggernaut condition within a pvp context. Know this... there are no valid reasons as to why the PVE conditions regarding parses in relations to other classes, must be the essential catalyst for changes to our class. Those concerns are valid however, but we need to focus on more substantial gains, beyond increased damage potential.

 

What i want to do is illustrate from a PVP perspective. I want us all to illustrate solutions to the current challenges that juggernauts face within arena gameplay. Face it, arenas are here to stay, and it is through arenas, that the developers will be creating adjustments to classes, not through pve.

 

 

 

IMMORTAL

 

I feel the spec performs well. I'm not experienced enough to debate otherwise, for I play either Vengeance or Rage. We need experienced pvp jug tanks to submit their concerns here.

 

I agree with this, Although i play this spec less than any of the others, I do feel like this is an overall very well made spec for arenas as of now. I DO think there is a problem with "tanks" going in as dps, but that's a queuing issue, not a juggy one. One thing I think I heard someone mention before is to have guard only work to the effectiveness of how many points are in the tank tree, I rather like that.

 

VENGEANCE

 

Very gear reliant. Very RNG reliant. Same old story. We need experienced pvp jug Vengeance concerns brought here.

 

Now THIS, I can comment all day on since I've been playing vengeance most / my favorite spec. Very well said thus far, I'd just add one or two things here...

 

1. I think that since our ranged counterparts get a strength increase of 9%, we should too. both Mercs and PTs have a 9% increase in overall main stat, We only get 6%, I know 3% may not sound like much, but in arenas, every little bit counts.

 

2. I feel the talent Overwhelm ( ravage snare ) should be removed and simply add the effects of it to Rampage. Someone brought up in a thread the other day about exactly how many points we actually have in our mid tree and he was right. I know these top two changes may seem small, but small victories on paper is the best way to go about this.

 

3. Now, about the bleeds.... I think it's cool we are given something to be set apart from Carnage and what not, but as a whole, I think the whole concept of bleeds need to be reworked. As Far as our performance in ranked is concerned. I can see two solutions here..... We could as to take away bleeds in Impale and force scream completely and be given back the automatic crit to force scream again instead of just 50%, OR I feel we can have the bleeds add a slowing effect to the players we are hitting..... personally, I perfer the later. I want Vengeance to be a whole other experience than from Carnage, and I feel this would be it.

 

4. Defense wise on this spec... I think we're fine, and are balanced accordingly.

 

RAGE

 

Excellent damage potential, but suffers greatly with survivability. There is a disparity between the damage that we can theoretically do, and the actual damage that gets applied. We need to share more pvp experiences and ideas here for this spec.

 

Although I play rage very rarely, I feel what you said here is also correct, on paper, we look great here, in practice.... not so much. Only things I'd list here....

 

1. Honestly? I think Rage on either class mara/juggy is way too much... but speaking in a competitive sense... Rage juggys need a good amount of damage mitigation increases... Since I'm not the Best Rage juggy I know or anything, maybe others would have a lot to say on this, I just feel that if you want to have Rage juggy an attractive option in Ranked groups you need to set it apart from our more commonly accepted brother... ( Rage mara )

 

2. I'll just state the obvious, Enraged Defense is utterly useless for Rage. It needs a rework on this front. What exactly the rework should be that isn't a carbon copy of other classes / specs, I don't know. But I think it needs to act along the lines of the bounty hunter's kolto overload. Maybe not the exact same, but similar.

 

3. You could give the shielding bubble defense buff to force scream? maybe? My view on how rage should be is "the best defense is a greater offense" So I feel this could also work. Tanks would obviously better on this front, and they should be... their tanks. But Rage does need something that works in practice here.

 

 

Responses are in Orange. Thanks again!

[Vaidinah]

And really Elyx? The class has a viable PVE DPS spec and is arguably the best tank in the game right now, what is troubling you about Jugg PVE? Currently the class has no place in arena whatsoever, I don't see how that wouldn't take precedence over PVE changes.

 

I assume you don't PvE or just care little about it since every point on that topic was inaccurate. Every single class in the game has a viable PvE DPS spec with the Juggernaughts being the lowest among them as both their specs deal among the lowest DPS in the game. As for tanking, it is not arguable that Juggs are the best tank in PvE. The only reason you may think so is because people spammed the forums for a while saying it was, but they were proven to be 100% wrong.

 

I don't know much about PvP nor do I care, but don't discuss matters in terms of what takes "precedence". That's for the developers to determine, not the players and your bias only shows why players' feedback is often listened to and then ignored when it's clearly wrong.

Edited December 9, 2013 by Vaidinah

[UndyingHadyn]

Aside from the false battle between PvE balance and PvP balance to which you devote two paragraphs, I think this is a good thread. PvE concerns are not dichotomous with PvP concerns. Different emphasis, certainly (e.g. Rage is underpowered in PvE and reviled for insane damage levels in PvP), but that doesn't make them opposites.

 

PvP tends to suss out burst, setup time, mechanical counters and survivability concerns, with a lesser focus on control and escapes. PvE susses out sustain, burst, and pure theoretical limits, with a lesser focus on setup time and survivability. Most of those points are shared, and none of them are really in conflict.

 

Consider all sides of the equation, otherwise we end up with class changes that benefit one group and yield absolutely nothing for another (eg the Ravage root, which helps a bit in PvP and does jack squat for PvE).

 

 

You need to change the name of the thread to "The REAL hardcore Arena PvP players concerns thread". Because that is all it is.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The last thing I want to do, is make intelligent people my enemies. I apologize if my desire to focus on arena gameplay came across as elitist. By all means we need to pool our resources and work together for maximum mutual benefit.

 

Please allow me to edit the initial paragraphs and allow me to invite you pve players to compile your data with us arena jugs. I beg you.

[UndyingHadyn]

Wow undying! I'm very honored. As to everyone else who may not know me, I'm Triand. I made my juggy exactly 30 secs after the servers went live and have been playing the class ( mostly in PvP) ever since. I have a youtube channel with several SWTOR vids ( and some others) here: https://www.youtube.com/user/ison117 . On top of that, I do have at least one of each Advanced Class on Imp side at 55. SO I can kind of get a view on balance.

 

To start, I'll make some comments on what you've said here...

 

 

 

Responses are in Orange. Thanks again!

 

Excellent youtube tutorials man. Informative and very entertaining to watch.

 

 

 

 

Immortal, and tanking in general.

 

 

 

• - Placing options for tanks to strengthen the quality of their guard mechanism, is a superb idea. Currently the juggernaut class does not possess enough passive mitigation values in the dps trees to enjoy the frivolous applications of guard to teammates. Throwing a guard is a big deal, where as our Sin hybrid and Ion PT counterparts can do so with less concern.
   
  
• -This must be a universal rule for all tanks, for the current guard mechanism is too easy to exploit when specced as dps. Not only would this reduce the rampant mitigation dilema, but it would solidify, and encourage more jugs to que up as tanks. Note to the pve'ers, why feat to have our current 50% remain as it is?....BECAUSE, the current guard mechanism is incredibly overpowered with the healing possibilities that exist in-game. When you couple a class' own mitigation values/defensive abilities, and couple them with a guard, you have indestructable players, and an endless collection of stalemates.
   
  
• -I would like to see a few increases to the Immortal tree's damage potential, and if that were not possible, there would have to be more debuff abilities. Immortal tree is the weakest, the lowest damage dealing class spec in game (healers excluded).
  

 

 

 

Vengeance

 

 

 

• -Vengeance is the most unreliable of the specs. It's tragic because not only can the spec be damaging, it is often referred to as the most fun to play. There are too many points spent in the tree that provide weak rewards. A fully feated Vengeance jug should not have to spend so many "50/100%" points, just to attain the spec's intended functionality.
   
  
• -Even the pve'ers agree...the root on Ravage isn't solving any issues. at. all. We need more "Rampage" suggestions from them, for they spend more sustained playtime with Vengeance and they have more experience with the RNG issues.
   
  
• -Boosting upfront damage, or allowing the bleeds behave as a snare (similar to Ani Rupture), are great ideas. Personally the auto crit to force scream is nice, but it's critical damage needs to be boosted by at least 7.5/15% per feat point. There should be options for this.
   
  
• -the attack "Shatter" should do just that. Our top tier ability should either be granted a shield break mechanism, or allowed to reduce the targets armor values even further.
  

 

 

 

Rage

 

 

 

• -With the supposed changes to the juggernaut "Enraged Defense", which should include no resource costs, and provide an automatic heal (similar to powertech, except we control ours)...what will be done with the current box allowing us to feat for reduced rage costs? Could we have an enhanced version of Saber Reflect? for example..."when Saber Reflect is used, all incoming attacks will heal the juggernaut for 3-6% of total health per feat point." Or could the Rage tree have modified options for reflect potential on ALL incoming attacks, not just force/tech. Face it, jugs are the squishiest class in-game, with no "holysheet immunity abilities". We get focused...we get dead. There is no reprieve, no escape. Anyone who thinks that Juggernaut Rage spec does not need more options for survivability, is simply unaware.
   
  
• -If we coupled the new Vengeance ability to break applied shields, and have the Rage jug follow up, the Rage jug would have the ability to apply his/her top damage, without having a wall of absurd mitigation values to reduce his viability. Additionally, having increased self-healing would enable rage jugs the tools to stand their ground better, and not be the weakest link on the arena team.
  

 

 

 

General

 

 

 

• -Having our strength boosting attribute boosted to 9% up from 6% IS ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL!!! How this juggernaut mainstat boost has trailed behind for so long is a mystery, and is also a huge insult on the developer's behalf. MUST BE FIXED!!!!!
  

[lordbadtamaru]

Thanks Tam.

 

Thing is, guardians need help and nerfs on both sides of the playing field.

 

Vigilance vengeance needs a damage buff on BOTH sides. It frankly needs to be a great 1v1 spec, as right now it's caught in a sort of tank with damage limbo.

 

Focus needs a damage nerf and more survivability on pvp, but more damage in pve

 

I have an idea though

[UndyingHadyn]

Hi,

 

 

Maybe change 'Pooled Hatred' to:

 

... In addition, every Stack grants you 5% AoE damage reduction. Stacks up to 5 times. Lasts 15 seconds.

 

Applied, consequential reduction values, instead of lawlpassives.... I like it.

[UndyingHadyn]

Enraged Defense no longer costs or consumes rage and is now on a 30s CD.

 

A. Copy deafening defense directly from Vengeance over to the Through Passion talent.

 

B. Rework Seething Hatred. Now gives 30% surge bonus to Force Scream and/or Impale/Shatter/Ravage.

 

C. Rework Unyielding, 30% AOE DR.

 

Until they do something with DPS DCDs or immo's damage juggs don't have a spot in arenas atm. Just my opinion but I haven't lost a single match (and as best as I can remember not even a round) against a team with a Jugg of any spec in team 4s. Solo queue is a different story but I would run smash for either. Vengeance doesn't do enough burst or sustained to justify a spot at the moment.

 

If/when they take the rage cost of enraged defense away and drop it down to a 30s cd, get rid of the dots for vengeance and make it all front loaded damage it might be viable at that point. Alternatively, they could just increase the dot damage by a chunk, or add a surge bonus for Scream and/or Ravage..

 

Do the same thing for the rage tree (with the 15% dr from vengeance tree as well) and both would probably be viable. Not as much burst as a carnage mara but overall better pressure for Vengeance and higher damage but a little less survivability for Rage. Would probably prefer a smash jugg over a smash marauder if they were to do this, as guard+ having a push, spammable AOE snare and intercede could probably outweigh the survivability gap.

 

Tanks do way too little damage compared to dark maul or AP (or even full tankasin for that matter). They also don't have access to 30% AOE DR. No single target burst (dark maul) and no spread pressure (AP) = no reason to bring a Jugg tank at the moment.

 

FWIW PVE people, the surge bonus to scream would put the top Vengeance parse around 3350. Rage DPS could be fixed by increasing the damage of the energy proc on Vicious Slash by about double and/or increasing the damage of Crush.

 

And really Elyx? The class has a viable PVE DPS spec and is arguably the best tank in the game right now, what is troubling you about Jugg PVE? Currently the class has no place in arena whatsoever, I don't see how that wouldn't take precedence over PVE changes.

 

Truth. Nice post.

[lordbadtamaru]

The pooled hatred change I like, pvp and pve changes, good indeed. Buy the skill tree is far too bloated. I think pooled hatred needs a merge with defiance or maybe commanding awe. We are a 46 point skill tree. It's ridiculous.

 

If they want to nerf focus damage potential in pvp, I think players need passive aoe DR, as the aoe damage of focus in pve needs to have the damage it does now. Focus also needs increased single target DPS. For survivabablity, maybe some changes to focused defense and or enure would help.

[UndyingHadyn]

Funny thing is tho, that Rage/Focus has the potential for greater single target strikes, just not sustained single target applications. Edited December 9, 2013 by UndyingHadyn

[lordbadtamaru]

The other problem with vig veng, is that our maximum DPS potential in pve is still not that high, only around 3.3 to 3.4 k DPS. As a sustained DPS spec, that is pretty terrible compared to the near 4k's lying around.

 

This affects pvp just as much. IMHO vigilance in pvp needs a survivablity renaissance that enables us to handle a fight 1 vs 1 and deal enough damage to shut down a healer. I would love to see the return of the old vigilance autocrit dispatch aka vicious throw, giving us on demand burst in pvp, and on boss utility in pve. I would gladly sacrifice keening for this, separates us from the combat dents but increases DPS potential.

 

We also need focus management help, we don't have the resource for execute right now.

 

I propose a new keening, changed to

 

Increases elemental damage effects by 12 percent, up from 9. In addition, dispatch aka vicious throw now has a 100 percent crit chance and is now free, and has a 30 percent chance to grant Zen strike aka rampage.

 

In this version, we lose dispatch before 30 percent but get a guaranteed

8-9k once the target hits 30 percent and below, plus a more stable master strike change and harder hitting burns, we would be well on our way, plus we are more unique compared to sents.

[Ottoattack]

My experience is more from PvP dps prescriptive, so I will focus from that concern.

 

Veng:

 

Has many issues: staying on target, mediocre burst, avg. sustained, high susceptibility to roots and 3 sec melee cast reliance that is on highly unreliable proc. Resolutions:

 

1- Starting with ravage, I disagree with the change that devs did, it is lazy uninspired copy paste of ravage root that the sprc did not need for the most part. I used that analogy before, but ravage to veng is like series of shots to MM sniper. SOS is 3 sec cast; however, in the MM tree its cast is reduced to 2.1 secs. Why not do the same for ravage? I would also like to see an evening out of the damage each tick does so not 50% of the damage is in the last tick, which is most likely to get interrupted.

 

2- Ravage proc. I would go away with the proc and make shatter and rampage, with possibility slash and viscous slash reducing the CD of ravage to make it usable every ~ 15 secs. This will make damage much more consistent.

 

3- Veng needs some sort of ability to stay on target. As a PT player, I was thinking if we enraged defense work provides roots and knock backs protection for the duration. That would make veng a lot more capable. I would pair that with enraged defense cost removed after initial use being removed.

 

4- Shatter dot needs to be unclensable. Or increase the base damage and lower dot damage by 1K at 1,450 bonus damage level. I would also give the dot some sort of use. I was thinking something in the line of increasing critic chance of melee atks by 5-10%. Another possibility, is making it provide additional stack of armor penetration on the target for all allies. That would be a great raid wide buff. Defiantly useful in PvP to kill healers.

 

5- I would remove the dot damage from force scream. It is about 20% of force scream damage. Just make force scream damage increased by 15-20% in the tree.

 

I think this would resolve most veng problems. Numbers can be tinkered with so it won't be OP.

 

I will update for rage later.

Edited December 9, 2013 by Ottoattack

[lordbadtamaru]

The changes the above poster made were quite good for pve reasons as well. I think a cd reduction on ravaged similar to the watchman merciless slash is great. For enraged defense, I think that the cc resistance etc could be good, kinda similar to sentinel force camo but not quite a carbon copy is fun. It needs the resource reduction removed as well, as in pve, having an efficient threat drop is needed.

 

@undyinghayden dude, I must say I'm proud of you for being a little more impartial towards pve and pvp, bravo

[Jasuke]

I am not hugely scientific when it comes to specs and classes and what not, but I do know something has gotta change. I have been away from swtor for a good several months and recently returned to playing a vengeance jugg. It quite honestly sucks. Generally speaking, my survivability as a vengeance jugg is terribad. It could be just that I get focused a lot, but that in of itself speaks to the squishyness of the vengeance jugg. They know you will die quickly so you are the first to get targeted.

[Arlanon]

That sounds good to me. I'll add RE: cast time reduction, just have each point in the revised Ravage Root talent reduce the cast time by .5 seconds. That, along with talent merge, and your attack cooldown proc, would make this nice and streamlined. Possibly even rotational! Edited December 10, 2013 by Arlanon

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

I play a Defence Guardian (Level 36) and a Immortal Jugg (level 20) and I have some issues with them.

 

1. Leaping: I feel that Immortal/Defence should get a leap similar to Watchman/Anni, because our Leap resets the CD of our interrupt, I think that it would A. Increase DPS slightly, and B. make us more useful for Intterupting things.

 

2. DPS is lackluster: I was in Maelstrom Prison with my 36 Guardian and on the Kilran fight I only did about 100 DPS, but I did like 1k threat. I feel that we need more DPS early on, though, I don't think we need any damage boosting talents, just some flat boosts to Hilt Strike (which should have a 45 sec CD), Force Stasis, and Guardian Slash (though I don't have it yet)

 

3. Midigation through Defence Chance: Defence chance is painfully low. I feel that Immortal/Defence should get a flat 5% Defence Chance for free. That isn't anything too major, a fully geared Immortal Jugg should have about 20% - 25% defence chance. It would just free up our stat budget for more Shield or Absorb.

[Marb]

Defense/Immortal

• Talents high in the Defense/Immortal trees which increase shield chance by 5% and absorb percentage by 15% (up from 0% in both).
  

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=6836218&postcount=1

 

In PvP tank spec is pretty strong as it is, but these additions are needed to maintain overall tank balance in PvE.

 

Other areas that need addressing:

 

 

• Saber throw sucks.
  
• Complete lack of ranged threat generation outside of saber reflect.
  
• Inability to maintain threat and kite.
  
• Weak AoE threat outside of tightly packed, perfectly positioned melee mobs.
  
• Lack of an effective pull (leap/forcepush/leap is 3 GCD's to perform the equivalent).
  
• Vulnerability to knockbacks (all of the above make this issue more significant for juggs compared to sin/pt).
  
• Retaliation's reliance on M/R attack types lowers dps significantly in F/T heavy encounters.
  

Edited December 10, 2013 by Marb

[KeyboardNinja]

I'd definitely like to see more base survivability for the Immortal tree. As it stands, they are the worst tank for arenas by a wide margin if you measure by damage taken, and double-Jugg is a noticeably poor combination for any high end PvE. Juggs do have the best defensive CDs in the game, which helps, but assassins are only slightly weaker in this area overall and their base line survivability is miles ahead.

 

Buffing shield and absorb as I suggested in the tank balance thread would be a significant change, since it radically changes the gearing and damage profile of a Jugg tank, as well as increases their survivability by quite a bit, but I think it would be reasonably well measured. It's tricky, because in PvE, a Jugg tank can run with a tank of another class to pick up the 5% damage debuff, which is a significant boost to mitigation. That doesn't happen in arenas unless you run with an annihilation marauder (lol). So, if we buff juggs to be balanced for arenas and double-Jugg tank composition in PvE, we make them OP when paired with a non-Jugg tank in PvE. Unfortunately, if we balance them for non-Jugg pairing in PvE, then arenas and double Jugg suffers.

 

Overall, this is a hard problem. Buffs are definitely needed, but they should be quite carefully considered.

[lordbadtamaru]

I always found limited close range restrictions to be bull on melee dps. All knights should get some form of a close ranged leap.

[lordbadtamaru]

And Saber Throw in tank tree needs a similar threat generation to the Shadow force pull. An opening threat spike would be great. Right now, if the dps leaps around the same GCD as you they COULD pull threat .