new PvE parsing idea for 2.5...

[KTap]

You need to examine what 100% uptime is....

 

Tyrans can have 100% uptime with a bit of luck

[Xenphon]

I would say 1.5 million is a tad too long, honestly. 6 - 7 minutes is a bit too much, especially, as already mentioned, people will continously parse to get those nice crits.

 

You could argue that 1 million may favour burst classes slightly, though. Then again, 1.5 million would probably favour sustained dps classes a bit more, especially those that make no changes in their rotation when execute abilities come into play.

 

Personally, I'd just have to adjust to whatever's decided, but setting it at 1.5 million will probably dissuade some people to participate due to length.

[Mathemagica]

I didn't read everything, so this might have been brought up already. I just wanted to chime in and tell you about the following scenario (This happened to me, when I abused Grim Tooth on Makeb as a 800k trainings dummy pre 2.5. The problem applies to the dummies post-2.5 as well.):

It happened to me that I entered the execute phase of my Grim Tooth parse just after a burst phase, which pushed the dps before the execute phase above average. The execute phase on the other hand was so short, that I didn't have another real burst window (We are talking about an MM Sniper here). This devalued the execute window compared to the pre-30% window in my Grim Tooth parse.

In other words: If the health of the dummy, your dps and your offensive cooldown align badly, parses will give a wrong picture of how your dps behaves pre-30% compared to the execute phase.

 

This problem can be (partially) avoided by creating two parses, one with 1'000k hp and one with 1'500k hp. If the dps of the two parses differs by a significant amount, you can check whether it was RNG or incompatibility of cooldowns and combat fight.

 

Just a suggestion.

[SamuelAU]

After doing some thinking and some parsing, I have to agree that 1.5 mil health is the best way to go. What it comes down to is if you're complaining about having to parse for 7 minutes, then you clearly don't have enough interest in your class or spec to push yourself and maximize your DPS output.

 

idnewton has hit the nail on the head really as far as I'm concerned. Even now (with a bit of luck), some people are making a push towards 4k DPS. The next tier of gear will easily push the length of a 1million dummy fight down closer to 4 minutes rather than 5 minutes, which is simply too short.

[Transmet]

Tyrans can have 100% uptime with a bit of luck

 

was just gonna say...he's the closest thing in the new content imo

[Transmet]

After doing some thinking and some parsing, I have to agree that 1.5 mil health is the best way to go. What it comes down to is if you're complaining about having to parse for 7 minutes, then you clearly don't have enough interest in your class or spec to push yourself and maximize your DPS output.

 

idnewton has hit the nail on the head really as far as I'm concerned. Even now (with a bit of luck), some people are making a push towards 4k DPS. The next tier of gear will easily push the length of a 1million dummy fight down closer to 4 minutes rather than 5 minutes, which is simply too short.

 

I don't see how parsing 7 mins makes you more 'dedicated' to your class and spec. I was in top 5 on the 2.4 leaderboard throughout. I put in probably hundreds of parses. idnewton and some other people commenting here haven't put up much in a long time if at all (for their respectable reasons) and if they have it hasn't been in the top 5 of their class. So, I guess the question then is, who is more 'dedicated to their class'? I think that's a ridiculous thing to say. I'm not against the 1.5 million dummy. I was just expressing a different approach to the topic of it and reaching out to see what people thought before maybe authoring a thread. Honestly, at this point, I'd rather start an 8-man HM boss thread than contribute to another boring 5 minute + whack-a-thon and have people who hardly post anything criticize it....but that's maybe just me.

Edited December 7, 2013 by Transmet

[SamuelAU]

I don't see how parsing 7 mins makes you more 'dedicated' to your class and spec. I was in top 5 on the 2.4 leaderboard throughout. I put in probably hundreds of parses. idnewton and some other people commenting here haven't put up much in a long time if at all (for their respectable reasons) and if they have it hasn't been in the top 5 of their class. So, I guess the question then is, who is more 'dedicated to their class'? I think that's a ridiculous thing to say. I'm not against the 1.5 million dummy. I was just expressing a different approach to the topic of it and reaching out to see what people thought before maybe authoring a thread. Honestly, at this point, I'd rather start an 8-man HM boss thread than contribute to another boring 5 minute + whack-a-thon and have people who hardly post anything criticize it....but that's maybe just me.

You misunderstand me.

 

All I'm getting at is that the idea of 7 minutes being "too long" is a very poor argument for favoring the 1 million health dummy. If you can't be bothered parsing for 7 minutes then why bother in the first place.

 

I hope some kind of consensus is reached though; my opinion is that it would be prudent to start on the 1.5 million dummy now as opposed to switching over at the next tier of gear and having some exceptionally short logs in the interim.

Edited December 7, 2013 by SamuelAU

[Transmet]

You misunderstand me.

 

All I'm getting at is that the idea of 7 minutes being "too long" is a very poor argument for favoring the 1 million health dummy. If you can't be ****ed parsing for 7 minutes then why bother in the first place.

 

I hope some kind of consensus is reached though; my opinion is that it would be prudent to start on the 1.5 million dummy now as opposed to switching over at the next tier of gear and having some exceptionally short logs in the interim.

 

Because I think standing there and repeating the same rotation over and over for a result of a fantasy number that can't be achieved otherwise is an incredible waste of time other than the fact you are learning your class. I think it would be much more exciting to have a fastest time down to 'defeat' combined with the dps that took you there. I think that format provides a much more realistic understanding of a class' capability than the current one. It isn't a knock to the current criteria. I put in a lot of time to be a part of it and enjoyed it for what it was. With these new tools, I think the time restriction needs to be done away with. I don't think we are in disagreement there.I'm leaning toward the 1.5 million dummy myself. Having said that, I haven't heard anything about a new thread from Falver or what his or his successor's plans are. Time will tell, I guess.

 

Would people be more interested in an 8-man HM board? TORparse is effed atm and there is a 16man one already. What do you think?

Edited December 7, 2013 by Transmet

[Aelanis]

You misunderstand me.

 

All I'm getting at is that the idea of 7 minutes being "too long" is a very poor argument for favoring the 1 million health dummy. If you can't be bothered parsing for 7 minutes then why bother in the first place.

 

I hope some kind of consensus is reached though; my opinion is that it would be prudent to start on the 1.5 million dummy now as opposed to switching over at the next tier of gear and having some exceptionally short logs in the interim.

 

I think you're absolutely right, 7 minutes is in no way too long to be parsing for. I would, at times, accidentally parse for half an hour while trying to figure out how to prioritize abilities. I once even logged a 43 minute long fight against the dummy on my Sentinel. I don't think that's very typical, though.

[countpopeula]

Not exactly. People are uploading (pointlessly, I might add) parses onto the old threads, but both of the ones I follow have stated or at least been considering the creation of a new 2.5 thread. So no, at least as far as I am concerned, the decision has not been made. The parses in the old threads are just people trying to jump the gun and look cool with their big numbers, but really they're relative to 2.5 and nothing before it.

 

On the topic of the dummy, though, I still think it needs to be a 1.5m dummy. People are putting up 3.9k parses with bounty hunter specs. When people like Beastfury parse carnage, and people like Claimed parse sabo bomb spec, you're going to get 4k parses minimum. Unfortunately, on a 1m HP dummy, a 4000-dps parse is only going to take 250 seconds, which is to say, ten seconds over 4 minutes. If you think the next tier of gear is not going to push that time under 4 minutes, you have another thing coming.

 

For now and for the future of parsing, we have to standardize it at 1.5m. That's not to say there can't be a separate blitz leaderboard (of 500k and 1m HP dummy parses) but the standard sustained DPS parse measurement must use a 1.5m dummy.

 

You're talking about a broken spec that benefits from a bug doing higher DPS. It's like saying rollbang is competitive and should be held at the same level as all other specs. Rollbang has been 4k+ for months, no one in Carnage has topped 3.6k without an armor debuff. With the AR buff on the dummy, probably going to see up to 3.7k as the estimated upper limit for Carnage, 3.9k is really pushing it for current gearing.

 

The problem with 1.5mil health is that you're going to see a noticable discrepancy between execute talent/ability classes and non-execute classes. 30% range means another 150k to eat through, execute classes will dominate this health range. I think 1mil, no armor debuff is the way to go. The argument that 1.5mil health needs to be the standard based on your reasoning is like saying that sports quarter/periods need to be extended by 50% because you need less intensity and to reward the athletes with endurance conditioning. You're going to see lower overall DPS because the rotation is going to have more slop mistakes because of the greater time frame with the extended 2.5 minutes. If a player is capable of sustaining the rotation for 4-5 minutes, I see no reason why they should have to prove they can do it for an additional 2 for the sake of achieving a universal standard. You're also rewarding Mara/Sents because we get to use a second Bloothirst.

Edited December 8, 2013 by countpopeula

[greg_biochem]

You're going to see lower overall DPS because the rotation is going to have more slop mistakes because of the greater time frame with the extended 2.5 minutes. If a player is capable of sustaining the rotation for 4-5 minutes, I see no reason why they should have to prove they can do it for an additional 2

 

So, if a player can sustain a rotation for 4 minutes without mistakes, they could easily do it for 6.5 minutes - but they would make more mistakes in that extra time?

 

The 1 mil dummy might be more convenient right now, but eventually you'd have to switch to using the 1.5 mil dummy. We had a nice run of parsing for 5 minutes prior to 2.5; players were able to get familiar with the format and tweak their rotation accordingly. Starting with the 1mil dummy and familiarizing ourselves with that pace - only to switch dummies when the next tier comes out - would just be silly.

Edited December 7, 2013 by greg_biochem

[idnewton]

was just gonna say...he's the closest thing in the new content imo

Grob is closer. And if you play Nefra right, that's closer too. Depends how strong of a grasp your team has on the fight, and what spec you're playing.

 

idnewton and some other people commenting here haven't put up much in a long time if at all (for their respectable reasons) and if they have it hasn't been in the top 5 of their class.

I was in the Jugg leaderboard on Harbinger for a few months... I still am.

 

I would say 1.5 million is a tad too long, honestly. 6 - 7 minutes is a bit too much, especially, as already mentioned, people will continously parse to get those nice crits.

 

You could argue that 1 million may favour burst classes slightly, though. Then again, 1.5 million would probably favour sustained dps classes a bit more, especially those that make no changes in their rotation when execute abilities come into play.

 

Personally, I'd just have to adjust to whatever's decided, but setting it at 1.5 million will probably dissuade some people to participate due to length.

Except that the leaderboard is designed to show sustained DPS. If we care about burst we can make a 500k dummy, but the point of it is sustained DPS. If a burst class has less sustained DPS, the point of the leaderboard is to show that.

 

You're talking about a broken spec that benefits from a bug doing higher DPS. It's like saying rollbang is competitive and should be held at the same level as all other specs. Rollbang has been 4k+ for months, no one in Carnage has topped 3.6k. With the AR buff on the dummy, probably going to see up to 3.7k, 3.9k is really pushing it for current gearing.

First, there is no 'broken dps spec' that I am aware of. Had you actually been watching the patch notes, you would know that the Merc DPS bug got fixed. Additionally, realize that my point was that anything above 3.3k DPS becomes a big problem.

 

The problem with 1.5mil health is that you're going to see a noticable discrepancy between execute talent/ability classes and non-execute classes. 30% range means another 150k to eat through, execute classes will dominate this health range. I think 1mil, no armor debuff is the way to go. The argument that 1.5mil health needs to be the standard based on your reasoning is like saying that sports quarter/periods need to be extended by 50% because you need less intensity and to reward the athletes with endurance conditioning. You're going to see lower overall DPS because the rotation is going to have more slop mistakes because of the greater time frame with the extended 2.5 minutes. If a player is capable of sustaining the rotation for 4-5 minutes, I see no reason why they should have to prove they can do it for an additional 2 for the sake of achieving a universal standard. You're also rewarding Mara/Sents because we get to use a second Bloothirst.

And this is beyond hilarious. The idea that execute-range classes are going to get more DPS out of a 1.5m dummy than a 1m dummy is absolutely ludicrous. If an Assassin, for example, has 2.7k DPS for the first 700k of a 1m dummy and 3k DPS for the other 300k of a 1m dummy, that's the exact same DPS as having 2.7k for the first 1050k of a 1.5m dummy and 3k DPS for the last 450k of a 1.5m dummy. The ratios are the exact same.

 

In addition, the idea to not use the armor debuff is absurd. The leaderboard is not about how well a DPS can perform on its own, it's about how well it performs in a raid scenario. That's why we're using the health monitors in the first place. That's the reason why we're using the armor debuff, and that's the reason why technically, we shouldn't allow Marauders to use bloodthirst. That's an entirely separate issue we should look at more closely later, but for now, I couldn't help but point out the obvious flaw in your comment.

Edited December 7, 2013 by idnewton

[Transmet]

You're talking about a broken spec that benefits from a bug doing higher DPS. It's like saying rollbang is competitive and should be held at the same level as all other specs. Rollbang has been 4k+ for months, no one in Carnage has topped 3.6k. With the AR buff on the dummy, probably going to see up to 3.7k, 3.9k is really pushing it for current gearing.

 

The problem with 1.5mil health is that you're going to see a noticable discrepancy between execute talent/ability classes and non-execute classes. 30% range means another 150k to eat through, execute classes will dominate this health range. I think 1mil, no armor debuff is the way to go. The argument that 1.5mil health needs to be the standard based on your reasoning is like saying that sports quarter/periods need to be extended by 50% because you need less intensity and to reward the athletes with endurance conditioning. You're going to see lower overall DPS because the rotation is going to have more slop mistakes because of the greater time frame with the extended 2.5 minutes. If a player is capable of sustaining the rotation for 4-5 minutes, I see no reason why they should have to prove they can do it for an additional 2 for the sake of achieving a universal standard. You're also rewarding Mara/Sents because we get to use a second Bloothirst.

 

See? I'm not crazy. These are very similar to my approach with it.

[emania]

The problem with 1.5mil health is that you're going to see a noticable discrepancy between execute talent/ability classes and non-execute classes. 30% range means another 150k to eat through, execute classes will dominate this health range. I think 1mil, no armor debuff is the way to go. .

 

This is not true the percentage of time spent under 30% should be basically the same and so the total dps will be roughly the same

 

for example if a dps did 3400 until under 30% then did 3550 the numbers would be.

1 mill

3400 71% 710,000 208.82

3550 29% 290,000 81.69

 

total time 290.51

total dps 3442.22

 

1.5 mill

3400 1,065,000 313.23

3550 435,000 122.53

 

total time 435.76

total dps 3442.26

 

so total dps difference is .04 dps

 

If my math is wrong please correct me

and if your point is that you just wont gain a boost from it and you're dps will fall from not being able to sustain dame that just makes idnewtons argument stronger since it indicates that you're dps is propped up by the short up time of the dummy.

Edited December 7, 2013 by emania

[idnewton]

See? I'm not crazy. These are very similar to my approach with it.

 

Actually, you're equally as crazy for not seeing the obvious mathematical failure in it.

[Transmet]

Actually, you're equally as crazy for not seeing the obvious mathematical failure in it.

 

For someone who posts so much about parsing, you sure don't parse very much. The only obvious thing I see is you're 'upset' about maras and that they don't play the way you'd like them to, which is fine, you gotta love your class, but you're taking it to an obvious level at the expense of others. Post more parses and less generic, self-proclaiming statements about your mathematical superiority.

Edited December 7, 2013 by Transmet

[idnewton]

For someone who posts so much about parsing, you sure don't parse very much

 

I care about the leaderboard because it's necessary to gauge spec potential. I care about it being fair and balanced because it matters. This is a community-wide issue. People who don't even know what parsing is are going to be affected by the answers they get in gen chat, tracing back to the decision we make here.

 

The fact of the matter is, I don't care a bunch about parsing. I care about the leaderboard, but I don't care very much about my own parsing. I want to make sure that this leaderboard is an accurate representation of an advanced class's potential.

 

I happen to feel that I have one of the better vantage points here, as I'm not actually on the leaderboard in the class that I mainly play. I'm not fighting to keep my spot. I'm fighting for fairness. You claim you parse hundreds of times to get a leaderboard spot, and that this is going to make that harder. I happen to disagree. This will make things fair. I don't care if it boots you off the leaderboard. The leaderboard does not exist for me to be on it. It doesn't exist so that you can be on it. It exists to show the highest DPS potential of an advanced class, from all players in the game. If you happen to not be on it, tough. Deal with it.

 

A balanced, fair and accurate leaderboard is essential not only to us, but to the Developers as well, and how they will see the classes against each other. Campaigning for a leaderboard which helps you deal the most damage is selfish as it is prideful. We're talking about a decision which affects millions of players. Put your pride aside for the time being, will you?

 

The only obvious thing I see is you're 'upset' about maras and that they don't play the way you'd like them to, which is fine, you gotta love your class, but you're taking it to an obvious level at the expense of others. Post more parses and less generic, self-proclaiming statements about your mathematical superiority.

And to be honest, this statement is blind as it is stupid. I literally just suggested that Marauders not be allowed to use bloodthirst in order to ensure a more fair and balanced representation of DPS. Open your f***ing eyes.

Edited December 7, 2013 by idnewton

[Emperor-Norton]

For someone who posts so much about parsing, you sure don't parse very much. It's pretty clear by now your posts are typically in favor of mara well-being, which is fine, you gotta love your class, but you're taking it to an obvious level. Post more parses and less generic, self-proclaiming statements about your mathematical superiority.

Post more ad hominem attacks instead of actually trying to defend your arguments or refute the other guys points. At least he is acting like a rational human being holding a discussion.

 

Also, the longer the parse the more your knowledge and experience with your rotation become a factor, and less about your lucky crits and RNG. Please tell me how that is a bad thing.

Edited December 7, 2013 by Emperor-Norton

[Transmet]

I care about the leaderboard because it's necessary to gauge spec potential. I care about it being fair and balanced because it matters. This is a community-wide issue. People who don't even know what parsing is are going to be affected by the answers they get in gen chat, tracing back to the decision we make here.

 

The fact of the matter is, I don't care a bunch about parsing. I care about the leaderboard, but I don't care very much about my own parsing. I want to make sure that this leaderboard is an accurate representation of an advanced class's potential.

 

I happen to feel that I have one of the better vantage points here, as I'm not actually on the leaderboard in the class that I mainly play. I'm not fighting to keep my spot. I'm fighting for fairness. You claim you parse hundreds of times to get a leaderboard spot, and that this is going to make that harder. I happen to disagree. This will make things fair. I don't care if it boots you off the leaderboard. The leaderboard does not exist for me to be on it. It doesn't exist so that you can be on it. It exists to show the highest DPS potential of an advanced class, from all players in the game. If you happen to not be on it, tough. Deal with it.

 

A balanced, fair and accurate leaderboard is essential not only to us, but to the Developers as well, and how they will see the classes against each other. Campaigning for a leaderboard which helps you deal the most damage is selfish as it is prideful. We're talking about a decision which affects millions of players. Put your pride aside for the time being, will you?

 

 

And to be honest, this statement is blind as it is stupid. I literally just suggested that Marauders not be allowed to use bloodthirst in order to ensure a more fair and balanced representation of DPS. Open your f***ing eyes.

 

This is a pretty sanctimonious post if you don't think that's exactly what everyone is trying to discuss here. Ranick posted something very accurate about 2 BT for maras as an example, which is not fair and balanced for everyone and counter to your whole post and you skated right over it. The original idea I had for this was to be fair and balanced for the community. If you thought it was to glorify one class more than another, then you are simply not reading it well.

 

I don't think one or the other is harder. There is nothing more difficult about swinging at a dummy for 2 mins longer than before; I just don't feel like it is a) accurate for the community given the mods now available b) enjoyable. That is the entire core of my argument.

 

You've gone off the deep end if you think this is to enhance my parsing. I am personally done with parsing as it is. Ranick made very valid points about a class he knows pretty well and you completely ignored it only to start telling me to 'open my *********** eyes' like this is a matter of life and death or something.

 

This whole subject is getting mired in BS. I'm done contributing to it. My plan in the near future is to make an 8-Man HM thread similar to the existing 16 man. It's the only thing that really counts anyway. /thread

Edited December 7, 2013 by Transmet

[Transmet]

Post more ad hominem attacks instead of actually trying to defend your arguments or refute the other guys points.

 

He didn't make any factual points to refute or at least none that we don't already agree on as common knowledge. The ad hominem attacks came from him in the first place with talk about failing at obvious math, which has not been presented yet, but thanks for the lecture.

Edited December 7, 2013 by Transmet

[Ardarell_Solo]

/Edit Wrong Thread Edited December 7, 2013 by Ardarell_Solo

[Transmet]

Post more ad hominem attacks instead of actually trying to defend your arguments or refute the other guys points. At least he is acting like a rational human being holding a discussion.

 

Also, the longer the parse the more your knowledge and experience with your rotation become a factor, and less about your lucky crits and RNG. Please tell me how that is a bad thing.

 

........at what point did you see me write something irrational? Am I foaming at the mouth in some post somewhere that I am not aware of? I even said I was leaning toward a 1.5 million HP dummy....like.....at no point did I say it was a bad thing, but there are several factors to consider and it's worth discussing them. Did you just get out of college or something, learn a bunch of cliches to use in a debate, and were thirsty to try them out in a way that's a complete overreaction?

 

Anyway, /thread for me. It was an idea. I'm glad the mods are in effect. I'm glad the 2.5 parsing criteria is changing and however it turns out, I'm sure people are going to put up some lofty standards. This is just too time consuming and exhausting to carry on.

Edited December 7, 2013 by Transmet

[idnewton]

He didn't make any factual points to refute or at least none that we don't already agree on as common knowledge. The ad hominem attacks came from him in the first place with talk about failing at obvious math, which has not been presented yet, but thanks for the lecture.

 

I actually did make points. I will provide them again here and elaborate on them, in hopes that you will read it.

 

 

On the topic of the dummy, though, I still think it needs to be a 1.5m dummy. People are putting up 3.9k parses with bounty hunter specs. When people like Beastfury parse carnage, and people like Claimed parse sabo bomb spec, you're going to get 4k parses minimum. Unfortunately, on a 1m HP dummy, a 4000-dps parse is only going to take 250 seconds, which is to say, ten seconds over 4 minutes. If you think the next tier of gear is not going to push that time under 4 minutes, you have another thing coming.

 

For now and for the future of parsing, we have to standardize it at 1.5m. That's not to say there can't be a separate blitz leaderboard (of 500k and 1m HP dummy parses) but the standard sustained DPS parse measurement must use a 1.5m dummy.

 

the leaderboard is designed to show sustained DPS. If we care about burst we can make a 500k dummy, but the point of it is sustained DPS. If a burst class has less sustained DPS, the point of the leaderboard is to show that.

 

The idea that execute-range classes are going to get more DPS out of a 1.5m dummy than a 1m dummy is absolutely ludicrous. If an Assassin, for example, has 2.7k DPS for the first 700k of a 1m dummy and 3k DPS for the other 300k of a 1m dummy, that's the exact same DPS as having 2.7k for the first 1050k of a 1.5m dummy and 3k DPS for the last 450k of a 1.5m dummy. The ratios are the exact same.

 

In addition, the idea to not use the armor debuff is absurd. The leaderboard is not about how well a DPS can perform on its own, it's about how well it performs in a raid scenario. That's why we're using the health monitors in the first place. That's the reason why we're using the armor debuff, and that's the reason why technically, we shouldn't allow Marauders to use bloodthirst. That's an entirely separate issue we should look at more closely later, but for now, I couldn't help but point out the obvious flaw in your comment.

 

the percentage of time spent under 30% should be basically the same and so the total dps will be roughly the same

 

for example if a dps did 3400 until under 30% then did 3550 the numbers would be.

1 mill

3400 71% 710,000 208.82

3550 29% 290,000 81.69

 

total time 290.51

total dps 3442.22

 

1.5 mill

3400 1,065,000 313.23

3550 435,000 122.53

 

total time 435.76

total dps 3442.26

 

so total dps difference is .04 dps

 

If my math is wrong please correct me

and if your point is that you just wont gain a boost from it and you're dps will fall from not being able to sustain dame that just makes idnewtons argument stronger since it indicates that you're dps is propped up by the short up time of the dummy.

 

The 1 mil dummy might be more convenient right now, but eventually you'd have to switch to using the 1.5 mil dummy. We had a nice run of parsing for 5 minutes prior to 2.5; players were able to get familiar with the format and tweak their rotation accordingly. Starting with the 1mil dummy and familiarizing ourselves with that pace - only to switch dummies when the next tier comes out - would just be silly.

 

After doing some thinking and some parsing, I have to agree that 1.5 mil health is the best way to go. What it comes down to is if you're complaining about having to parse for 7 minutes, then you clearly don't have enough interest in your class or spec to push yourself and maximize your DPS output.

 

idnewton has hit the nail on the head really as far as I'm concerned. Even now (with a bit of luck), some people are making a push towards 4k DPS. The next tier of gear will easily push the length of a 1million dummy fight down closer to 4 minutes rather than 5 minutes, which is simply too short.

 

I was arguing for the use of 1.5mil HP dummy parses to start with, instead of switching to them later.

 

I think parses barely over 4 minutes are ridiculously short, but I realize that's a subjective opinion and that most people don't think it gets too ridiculous until parses actually go under 4 minutes (next tier). Yes, a parse on the 1.5mil dummy would be 6.5 - 7 minutes long, but I doubt the next tier of gear would bring that down much below 6 minutes...

 

 

 

The idea to limit parses to a minimum of five minutes dates back to who knows when, and for obvious reasons. As I have stated time and again, the point of the leaderboard is for sustained DPS. It's also for a fair representation of raid ability. That is the point of the thread. That is why the following rules and restrictions should be in place:

 

1: 1.5M Dummy

2: Armor debuff

3: No Bloodthirst

 

These three rules will ensure the fairest comparison of spec ability without relying on lucky RNG to give you the best numbers. The fact is, parses will be 6-7 minutes. They will generate lower numbers than the 1M dummy. But that's the point. The point is to show an accurate reading of sustained DPS. Players don't rely on perfect RNG to get them through HM Ops fights (or at least, they shouldn't).

 

The other point to make, which I touched on briefly, is the dev feedback. The excuse Austin Peckenpaugh gave for Assassins and Shadows was that they relied heavily on the <30% damage bonus, didn't have an armor, and weren't able to use Assassinate. [source]. While this is true to some extent, some players believe (rightly, in my opinion) that Assassin/Shadow DPS is still low even after those restrictions and the 2.5 buffs. With a fair and balanced leaderboard, we can provide the top parses to the devs as hard evidence of a viability difference, and get some action. For the future of the game, this matters.

[Transmet]

I actually did make points. I will provide them again here and elaborate on them, in hopes that you will read it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The idea to limit parses to a minimum of five minutes dates back to who knows when, and for obvious reasons. As I have stated time and again, the point of the leaderboard is for sustained DPS. It's also for a fair representation of raid ability. That is the point of the thread. That is why the following rules and restrictions should be in place:

 

1: 1.5M Dummy

2: Armor debuff

3: No Bloodthirst

 

These three rules will ensure the fairest comparison of spec ability without relying on lucky RNG to give you the best numbers. The fact is, parses will be 6-7 minutes. They will generate lower numbers than the 1M dummy. But that's the point. The point is to show an accurate reading of sustained DPS. Players don't rely on perfect RNG to get them through HM Ops fights (or at least, they shouldn't).

 

The other point to make, which I touched on briefly, is the dev feedback. The excuse Austin Peckenpaugh gave for Assassins and Shadows was that they relied heavily on the <30% damage bonus, didn't have an armor, and weren't able to use Assassinate. [source]. While this is true to some extent, some players believe (rightly, in my opinion) that Assassin/Shadow DPS is still low even after those restrictions and the 2.5 buffs. With a fair and balanced leaderboard, we can provide the top parses to the devs as hard evidence of a viability difference, and get some action. For the future of the game, this matters.

 

This'll be my last post on the subject, but let me clarify and maybe summarize a little.

 

Let me preface this by saying there is a lot of agreement from me here with some discrepancies. I'm not going to gather all the counter points and post them, but I will say this; At no point did I say NOT to use one HP over the other. I was opening it up for discussion as to why one may be more accurate than another. The 5 min parse is NOT a sacred cow to me and I stated in my OP that moving up to the 1.5 dummy after the next tier was obvious and necessary, but there was some disagreement to that. Assuming I didn't know the ramifications of tier gear and dps gains is the fault of the assumption and was never a part of my thought process in making this thread. 1 million HP is NOT 'burst' dps.

 

There are some technical points that I don't understand here and that I feel contradict each other. Such as the simulating a raid/ops as much as possible with armor debuffs, yet somehow a mara/sent BT SHOULDNT be allowed? Then the point was brought up that how many raid groups run without a BT in it and that any progressive group would indeed have one and then that blew up into personal attacks of which I wasn't involved in. I'm lost here.

 

Then there was the 100% uptime sarcasm....which was just lol and flat out wrong....

 

Then some actual math was brought in and it started to make more sense in terms of which dummy should be used and then somehow I became this person who was denouncing the 1.5 mil HP dummy, which I did no such thing other than provide my thoughts against it, which I thought were rational and logical in terms of realistic class accuracy. I am well aware of what a leaderboard thread represents for the devs et al and that it does matter hence the time we are all taking to discuss it. Acting like you are taking some moral high road when people with a different opinion than you about how it should be represented are not is just disingenuous. I think discussion is the answer, but everyone is so busy making themselves heard, there is very little reading of other ideas and logical points.

 

Then you replied that I was being prideful and trying to tailor the dummy for my own gains....like....what? I quietly climbed up the parsing ladder in my class by learning and playing. I think operatives have problems in gameplay, not in balance, and would never actually be motivated to have 'higher numbers' being tilted in my favor.

 

Most, if not all, of your arguments were made from a mara's POV under the guise of caring about the community and somehow I don't. I guess I'm in it for that dirty e-sports money? Some of the best players I know don't give a **** about parsing and I'm starting to understand why, hence why I am done with it myself.

 

Whatever you decide, I'm just glad this was at least discussed, although heated, so that the community can learn from it. For the record, I tend to agree with Ranick's points more than any others brought up here, but that's just a personal thing. Enjoy and let's hug it out.

Edited December 7, 2013 by Transmet

[countpopeula]

And this is beyond hilarious. The idea that execute-range classes are going to get more DPS out of a 1.5m dummy than a 1m dummy is absolutely ludicrous. If an Assassin, for example, has 2.7k DPS for the first 700k of a 1m dummy and 3k DPS for the other 300k of a 1m dummy, that's the exact same DPS as having 2.7k for the first 1050k of a 1.5m dummy and 3k DPS for the last 450k of a 1.5m dummy. The ratios are the exact same.

 

In addition, the idea to not use the armor debuff is absurd. The leaderboard is not about how well a DPS can perform on its own, it's about how well it performs in a raid scenario. That's why we're using the health monitors in the first place. That's the reason why we're using the armor debuff, and that's the reason why technically, we shouldn't allow Marauders to use bloodthirst. That's an entirely separate issue we should look at more closely later, but for now, I couldn't help but point out the obvious flaw in your comment.

 

Cut the condescending, know it all attitude clown, you're flat wrong. It's nothing near absolutely ludicrous. The DPS remains the same? Not even close. Overall up until the 30% mark, nothing changes, however by switching to a dummy with a health pool rather than a set time limitation, you change the game entirely. It becomes about the first to take the HP from X to 0, DPS is a byproduct rather than a standard. It is still a DPS based game, obviously highest DPS wins the race, but execute range changes things for several classes. Case in point, Marksman Snipes now benefit doubly, they get Takedown as part of their rotation for 30% of the fight as well as an extra Followthrough, SIGNIFICANTLY boosting their DPS. For a comparison example pulled out of my butt, an Annihilation Marauder vs a Lightning Sorc. Neither have an execute ability for a timer based fight, granted the Anni Mara would probably win, if they were to do the same DPS, the 30% Vicious Throw would push the race in favor of the Mara. If you have a class with an execute, watch your Nefra numbers which is as close to a dummy fight as you'll find in the game. It's how I managed to hold onto my 3764DPS 16man HM record parse number. It had dropped to 3680ish until execute range where it jumped back up to ~3750. Executes boost by about 50-100 DPS once you hit range from where they were previously on timer based dummy fights. You can't argue this, don't even bother trying.

 

Right now, Falver's post is THE definitive DPS thread. 100% contrary to what you said, it's ALL ABOUT HOW A CLASS CAN PERFORM ON IT'S OWN. The rules clearly state that you cannot use anything to assist your fight other than what your class itself can bring. This isn't about raid DPS, this is about dummy parsing. There's a completely separate raid DPS thread for each raid, that's where people can flex their nuts and ignore the absence/presence of raidwide buffs and who's group comp best suits big numbers. The dummy DPS threads have always been about who can make the most out of their class with no assistance. Allowing all classes an Armor Rend gives a boost to anything without AP inherent in their rotation and benefits anything that needs to "waste" a global on attaining that Armor Rend, aka Snipes. Marauders' BT is an inherent ability and there's no reason not to use it during a parse. If you're going to say that, than Snipers shouldn't be able to Shatter Shot (irrelevant if you're going to allow for the AR, I'm talking under current rules). BT is actually a net DPS loss, using Berserk instead is a DPS gain for any of the 3 Mara specs. The only reason I BT at the beginning of a parse is because in conjunction with double stacking Fury prior to engagement, it is the most efficient use of Fury and the highest DPS. At the tail end of the fight, I'd rather back to back Berserk than BT because it's a net DPS gain.

 

The standard should be a 1mil dummy with no armor rend buff. As DPS increases to the point where the fight reaches sub 4min marks, then we can up it to 1.5mil accordingly. The 5 minute standard is very relevant, we should use whatever HP pool holds the median for all classes as close to 5 minutes as possible. The argument against this is going to be null when DPS 6+ months from now has the 1.5mil dummy dying in sub 5 minutes anyways. I think having a health based standard is stupid because of this scaling issue, but I think it overall lends a better view of who knows how to play their class best since execute range is a gamechanger for several classes and requires a different play than beating a dummy for 5 minutes. Essentially, the discussion between the 1 or 1.5mil is a temporary discussion, because later DPS will end up requiring a higher health pool dummy to be implemented at a later date anyways. 1mil is the way to go right now, future gearing will see the 1.5mil com into relevance and even further gearing will require a 2mil+ dummy. Burst DPS vs sustained doesn't come into discussion until the 3-3.5 minute mark anyways where burst classes start to suffer from energy management issues. I play mostly Carnage Mara, it's a burst class. I can however sustain that burst level almost indefinitely because while the DPS comes in spurts of high output followed by lulls of lower DPS (the definition of "burst DPS"), I can sustain those numbers over the course of however long my focus on my rotation holds out if the fight is static and there are no mechanics to be obeyed. I also am 100% fluent in Rage and Anni, both have much smoother damage graphs. Anni is a stack based DOT spec with a ramp up time, once you get past 2 minutes DPS stabilizes and your overall fight DPS becomes about rotation and crit luck. Any fight that lasts longer than 3 minutes does not favor sustained or burst DPS and becomes about class energy management.

Edited December 7, 2013 by countpopeula