BiS Relics for Healers PvP/PvE

[oofalong]

For this phenomena, analysis of combat logs or simulations will provide more reliable results than formula.

 

I've referred to using formula as approximating in this case, because

1. The formula for the uptime of procs from hits, and the formula for the uptime of procs from heals, are averages (of hits or heals per second) of averages (treating a relic's CD as divisible without remainder by hit or heals per second) of averages (of the probability distribution for time-to-proc, which has a long tail).
   
2. The formula for combined uptimes for "double" proccing relics is yet another average (of the probability distribution for the amounts of overlap between procs from damage and procs from heals, which distribution has a substantial variance).
   

 

These formula are a clean summary of these several Procrustean steps. Your analysis of combat logs doesn't show that you've used the "correct" formula, but rather that using formula in this first place hasn't cast doubt on your results.

 

I like, use, and recommend to others your work on relics "as is". I have no reason to doubt its ranking of relics, nor do I believe that you should note in it any of what I've discussed here. As a mathematician I prefer formulaic approaches to quantitative questions, and I would use formula similar to yours if I were to choose this approach. But I wouldn't model relics with formula; I'd analyze data from combat logs or simulations, instead.

 

All that makes sense - and I agree the formula is an estimate (although I wouldn't call it rough ). To me the important takeaway here is the relative rank of each relic. I don't think anyone could perfectly model the true DPS benefit of each relic as by design models make certain assumptions. Anyway, I just was sensitive to the 'rough approximation' and wondered if you felt there was something I could do to improve it.

[Darth_Dreselus]

Updated for 2.6

Change log:

- Slightly changed Merc/Mando section to reflect changes to TP/KP

- Corrected links in light of mmomechanics dying

 

Still no data on the HS/RS for Merc/Mando

Edited February 5, 2014 by Darth_Dreselus

[oofalong]

...

- Corrected links in light of mmomechanics dying

...

 

[Orderken]

I just was sensitive to the 'rough approximation'.

 

I shared this with you in Mumble, Oofalong, but I wanted to share it here, too, where our discussion began.

 

Thanks to the surprisingly thorough help files for Visual Basic that come with Excel, I simulated a "double" proccing relic. Using the same hits (2.2) and heals (0.75) per second as Oofalong's spreadsheet, 1 million simulations of a 300-second fight had an average uptime of 46.5%. This average is only 2% higher than the 45.6% uptime predicted by Oofalong's formulaic approach.

 

So, the uptimes calculated in Oofalong's spreadsheet are not "rough" approximates, and my concerns have been shown to be immaterial.

[JustBLaxin]

So I gotta ask because I've been doing my own research and testing, how exactly is the KD SA > DF SA? They both have the exact same affects, same cool down, same proc base, and the DF SA has over 100 more power per proc. And between the two I've noticed a much better output from the DF SA than the KD SA. So I'm going to go ahead and call shenanigans on that assumption. Otherwise I do enjoy having the dual proc of SA + FR and not having a clicky. Just to put my credentials up, 55 Op Healer 10/10 in the newer HMs.

[Darth_Dreselus]

So I gotta ask because I've been doing my own research and testing, how exactly is the KD SA > DF SA? They both have the exact same affects, same cool down, same proc base, and the DF SA has over 100 more power per proc. And between the two I've noticed a much better output from the DF SA than the KD SA. So I'm going to go ahead and call shenanigans on that assumption. Otherwise I do enjoy having the dual proc of SA + FR and not having a clicky. Just to put my credentials up, 55 Op Healer 10/10 in the newer HMs.

 

The DF SA does not double proc (from heals and damage) whereas the KD does. So provided you put a DoT on the enemy it will proc twice per the 20s window. If you do not put a DoT on the enemy or you are a Mando/Merc (apparently you can use HS/RS here but unconfirmed) the DF relic is better. See oofalongs spreadsheet linked in the OP for all the 'double proccing' relics.

 

TL;DR KD SA (among others) is bugged.

 

Personally I don't put the DoT up as it is only a boost of cca 2-3% and I get too much 'in the zone' when healing to worry about DoTing up the boss. So I am going for DF SA+DF FR.

 

I would also like to thank you for asking about a clarification rather than outright attacking the thread as it all too common on these forums.

Edited February 11, 2014 by Darth_Dreselus

[CaptainApop]

So I gotta ask because I've been doing my own research and testing, how exactly is the KD SA > DF SA? They both have the exact same affects, same cool down, same proc base, and the DF SA has over 100 more power per proc. And between the two I've noticed a much better output from the DF SA than the KD SA. So I'm going to go ahead and call shenanigans on that assumption. Otherwise I do enjoy having the dual proc of SA + FR and not having a clicky. Just to put my credentials up, 55 Op Healer 10/10 in the newer HMs.

 

Basically the KD will proc independently off of healing and damage courtesy of a bug while the DF one will not. This means you can get anywhere up to double uptime from the KD than you would from the DF relic. On a fun note, all focused retribution relics are bugged in this way too.

 

If you aren't consistently doing a bit of damage (eg a dot) then the DF will perform better naturally.

 

EDIT: Didn't see the other response, sorry for what's basically a double post

Edited February 11, 2014 by CaptainApop

[Terrulin]

The DF SA does not double proc (from heals and damage) whereas the KD does. So provided you put a DoT on the enemy it will proc twice per the 20s window. If you do not put a DoT on the enemy or you are a Mando/Merc (apparently you can use HS/RS here but unconfirmed) the DF relic is better. See oofalongs spreadsheet linked in the OP for all the 'double proccing' relics.

 

TL;DR KD SA (among others) is bugged.

 

Personally I don't put the DoT up as it is only a boost of cca 2-3% and I get too much 'in the zone' when healing to worry about DoTing up the boss. So I am going for DF SA+DF FR.

 

I would also like to thank you for asking about a clarification rather than outright attacking the thread as it all too common on these forums.

 

While obviously not something that applies to the scoundrel/op healer who made the original statement, it is worth noting that sages(sorcs) and commandos(mercs) both have their aoe heals that cause damage(or damaging aoe knockbacks that proc a heal depending on how you look at it) to also proc relics. While it wont trigger each time with a single boss up, when there are adds up, (or say 4 bosses at once grouped together) it triggers more often than not. On Dread council, for example, it's a good idea to aoe heal (salvation, kolto bomb) to trigger the healing procs, burn through 4 cooldowns (6s) and force wave or concussion charge the 4 bosses to get the damage procs. Bosses with multiple targets (corruptor zero) also have this benefit.

[Darth_Dreselus]

While obviously not something that applies to the scoundrel/op healer who made the original statement, it is worth noting that sages(sorcs) and commandos(mercs) both have their aoe heals that cause damage(or damaging aoe knockbacks that proc a heal depending on how you look at it) to also proc relics. While it wont trigger each time with a single boss up, when there are adds up, (or say 4 bosses at once grouped together) it triggers more often than not. On Dread council, for example, it's a good idea to aoe heal (salvation, kolto bomb) to trigger the healing procs, burn through 4 cooldowns (6s) and force wave or concussion charge the 4 bosses to get the damage procs. Bosses with multiple targets (corruptor zero) also have this benefit.

 

Interesting view. I probably will not add that into the OP as those can only be used once every 30s, so beyond the cd of the relic. I really wanted to point out which classes can have a constant stream of damage while healing. Same reason why I have not added Rapid Shots/Hammer Shot into the Mando/Merc section. All healer classes can do some off DPS to proc relics, but it is very much an issue of actually actively doing off DPS as opposed to spending a single GCD every 18s and not worrying about it.

 

That does not mean that those sources of damage are not a consideration, but not really in the way the DoTs work. I will soon be able to at least test for Rapid Shots, even if not for Hammer Shot.

[JustBLaxin]

The DF SA does not double proc (from heals and damage) whereas the KD does. So provided you put a DoT on the enemy it will proc twice per the 20s window. If you do not put a DoT on the enemy or you are a Mando/Merc (apparently you can use HS/RS here but unconfirmed) the DF relic is better. See oofalongs spreadsheet linked in the OP for all the 'double proccing' relics.

 

TL;DR KD SA (among others) is bugged.

 

Personally I don't put the DoT up as it is only a boost of cca 2-3% and I get too much 'in the zone' when healing to worry about DoTing up the boss. So I am going for DF SA+DF FR.

 

I would also like to thank you for asking about a clarification rather than outright attacking the thread as it all too common on these forums.

 

Is this still valid even post 2.6? Cause I haven't noticed that double proc even with the KD SA. So I'm not sure if maybe I'm doing something wrong or what's going on? But even with HoTs up and an added in Dart I haven't noticed a double.

[Terrulin]

Interesting view. I probably will not add that into the OP as those can only be used once every 30s, so beyond the cd of the relic. I really wanted to point out which classes can have a constant stream of damage while healing. Same reason why I have not added Rapid Shots/Hammer Shot into the Mando/Merc section. All healer classes can do some off DPS to proc relics, but it is very much an issue of actually actively doing off DPS as opposed to spending a single GCD every 18s and not worrying about it.

 

That does not mean that those sources of damage are not a consideration, but not really in the way the DoTs work. I will soon be able to at least test for Rapid Shots, even if not for Hammer Shot.

 

Force wave is 20s, but you still need to hit quite a few targets to make KD SA a better option than DF SA. I basically use my KD when I DPS on my sage and use my DF when I heal. I think I might have convinced myself to switch to a KD relic for healing 16m DP last boss since there is so much damage going out in the final phase that the bonus there outweighs the small loss over the whole fight.

 

On a side note, got any stats for the PTS relics? I have a second sage Im leveling up (to split my heal and dps lockouts) and I am wondering how much better the new pvp relics will be than obroan. If the difference is negligible, I might be done with pvp on that toon =þ

[akabane_k]

Force wave is 20s, but you still need to hit quite a few targets to make KD SA a better option than DF SA. I basically use my KD when I DPS on my sage and use my DF when I heal. I think I might have convinced myself to switch to a KD relic for healing 16m DP last boss since there is so much damage going out in the final phase that the bonus there outweighs the small loss over the whole fight.

 

On a side note, got any stats for the PTS relics? I have a second sage Im leveling up (to split my heal and dps lockouts) and I am wondering how much better the new pvp relics will be than obroan. If the difference is negligible, I might be done with pvp on that toon =þ

 

675 stat boost for relics.

[Darth_Dreselus]

Ye I've looked at the stats, but I may not test for double procs, as it may change from PTS to Live anyway.

 

While FW may be 20s, WM is one tick per 3s, so both kinda work. For Council on 16 it may indeed be worth while.

 

Is this still valid even post 2.6? Cause I haven't noticed that double proc even with the KD SA. So I'm not sure if maybe I'm doing something wrong or what's going on? But even with HoTs up and an added in Dart I haven't noticed a double.

 

Should be, the way it tends to work is that the procs get over-written meaning that the buff refreshes before it expires which is why you may not be noticing it.

Edited March 7, 2014 by Darth_Dreselus

[JustBLaxin]

Ye I've looked at the stats, but I may not test for double procs, as it may change from PTS to Live anyway.

 

While FW may be 20s, WM is one tick per 3s, so both kinda work. For Council on 16 it may indeed be worth while.

 

 

 

Should be, the way it tends to work is that the procs get over-written meaning that the buff refreshes before it expires which is why you may not be noticing it.

 

I haven't seen it popping even considering this. For example, Council phase with Brontes and Styrak I always have a dot running on Styrak, along with any other DPS I can throw in when not healing, and haven't noticed a double. Next time I'm in there i'll be sure to look at the parse just to be sure and if indeed it isn't i'll post a link.

[Darth_Dreselus]

I haven't seen it popping even considering this. For example, Council phase with Brontes and Styrak I always have a dot running on Styrak, along with any other DPS I can throw in when not healing, and haven't noticed a double. Next time I'm in there i'll be sure to look at the parse just to be sure and if indeed it isn't i'll post a link.

 

I can't test for KD SA because I run DF relics, So I looked at the the DF FR and what I got was this

 

http://www.torparse.com/l/613835

 

There is no indication that it refreshed, rather the duration is 9s rather than 6s. I distinctly saw it overwrite the proc by refreshing. I would assume that should also happen to the KD relic, I will see if a guildie is running it and can give me a log.

 

You can test it yourself on a dummy too, just dot it up and heal yourself.

[Orderken]

The relics listed in the OP as having separate procs from damage and from healing continue to have this behavior on live and on the PTS. On the PTS, the Brutalizer FR relic has this behavior, while the Brutalizer SA doesn't.

[oofalong]

After some testing, I can not get my DF FR relic to double proc on my Merc either as heals or DPS in a dummy parse. (Double proc still works on my Annihilation Marauder.) Does someone have a parse with a Merc Commando that shows a double proc of Primary Surge - that is one that is longer than 6s or more frequent than 20s?

 

Also, does someone have a parse showing a double proc from a Sorc/Sage or Operative/Scoundrel? With their DoTs I would expect this would be easier to see/more common.

 

Edit: Nevermind, I just check Darth_Dreselus post a few back. Still, can't explain the Merc though.

 

Thanks.

Edited March 27, 2014 by oofalong

[Orderken]

I can confirm that DF FR continues to double proc for Sorcerer or Operative healers, but can't double proc for a Mercenary healer.

 

Underworld SA continues to double proc for a Mercenary healer, but the procs seem to never overlap, providing 12 seconds of uptime.

 

These recent changes for Mercenary healers are bizarre.

[cs_zoltan]

These recent changes for Mercenary healers are bizarre.

 

It's a conspiracy!!!

[Darth_Dreselus]

2,7: Update your Obroan to Brutaliser and call it a day. Edited April 11, 2014 by Darth_Dreselus

[Darth_Dreselus]

Been away for a while but there basically was no reason to update. But with the removal of double click and the release of NM DP the choice has now been narrowed severely. Basically take the best version of SA and FR. Edited July 2, 2014 by Darth_Dreselus