Shadow/Assassin 2.5 Preliminary testing

[piccoloj]

Tanking: Armor buff amounts to an extra 10%, not 20 or 40 that they originally planned. Without self healing, and the 12 sec rotation for reduction, I predict no change in spikiness.

 

Deception DPS: Maul cost reduced has no effect on rotation, slight buff on Voltaic Slash makes about a 3% increase in DPS in my testing so far. I can pull about 2370 DPS on the ops dummy, I was doing about 2300 before. Sample size is limited, and I'll do more later.

 

Not enough to make much difference in end game viability for either spec really. I don't intend to play balance shadow, the rotation is mind-numbingly boring.

 

Anyone else have experience or numbers?

 

Whynd

[thejollygreenone]

Tanking: Armor buff amounts to an extra 10%, not 20 or 40 that they originally planned. Without self healing, and the 12 sec rotation for reduction, I predict no change in spikiness.

 

Deception DPS: Maul cost reduced has no effect on rotation, slight buff on Voltaic Slash makes about a 3% increase in DPS in my testing so far. I can pull about 2370 DPS on the ops dummy, I was doing about 2300 before. Sample size is limited, and I'll do more later.

 

Not enough to make much difference in end game viability for either spec really. I don't intend to play balance shadow, the rotation is mind-numbingly boring.

 

Anyone else have experience or numbers?

 

Whynd

 

here's my experience:

 

just hit 2924 dps a infiltration before 2.5 dropped, after 2.5 i bought myself an obroan FR relic to replace my underworld BA and used the armor debuff and execute dummy modifiers to hit 3230 post-2.5. the scalars KBN provided tell us that this without the modifiers the 3230 parse would be more like 2900 instead of 2924 which i had before the changes. i have'nt been able to break 3230 which means that the changes are unnoticeable, or KBNs numbers are off. i'm inclined to think that the changes were unnoticeable.

 

if someone insists some testing be done without the modifiers i will oblige for the sake of science but otherwise i'll continue to test with modifiers.

 

so there's my take on the changes do infiltration/deception! hope this was what you were looking for.

[MajikMyst]

if someone insists some testing be done without the modifiers i will oblige for the sake of science but otherwise i'll continue to test with modifiers..

 

If you want the data you post to be taken seriously.. Shouldn't you know that already?? Testing with modifiers is just not an accurate way to test.. Sorry.. Just how I see it.. To me they are a waste of time as they give false numbers..

[Aelanis]

The armor buff is exactly what the tooltip says it is: 20% extra from Elusivenes, 15% more than 2.4 from Combat Stance. With the stacking 4% DR buff constantly up, it's around a 7.5% increase in damage reduction from kinetic/energy attacks. That's a pretty serious jump in damage reduction. I'll have to test it out during my raid tomorrow night, but I predict good things.

 

As for the changes to the dps specs, I haven't tested them out without the new dummy items, so I can't say anything for sure. Force management does feel a tiny bit easier in Infiltration, though.

Edited December 3, 2013 by Aelanis

[thejollygreenone]

If you want the data you post to be taken seriously.. Shouldn't you know that already?? Testing with modifiers is just not an accurate way to test.. Sorry.. Just how I see it.. To me they are a waste of time as they give false numbers..

 

would you like to explain why they are 'false numbers'?

 

on another note, frankly, i don't care if my 'data' is 'taken seriously', because this is a videogame, not my non-existent job as a research scientist. if i really cared that much i would've used the same relic combo as i did pre-2.5 as well. someone asked about what people have been seeing so far, and i said what iv'e been seeing so far. idk why you have to be so abrasive about it ._.

 

since it's apparent at least someone wants the pure comparison i'll oblige as i said, but i can already tell you the change is going to be unnoticeable. if it isn't overshadowed by the dummy modules, then it will be overshadowed by RNG. off to test, will come back with what results i can get.

 

EDIT: expect it to be awhile, getting enough luck to beat the good RNG of my previous record to prove any sort of increase is going to take a long time.

Edited December 3, 2013 by thejollygreenone

[Botho]

Well, I tanked Dread Fortress tonight on 8man and to be honest, it's not like you feel invincible and so you should'nt but things feel a fair bit less dicey and more stable, you still spike occasionally but it's nothing as dramatic as before from what I experianced tonight and what Im used to, I dont have any math to back it up, all I can say is it feels better overall.

 

Did 2 bosses in Palace as well, just Bestia and Tyrans. Felt stable too, before on Tyrans i'd see the occasional see 20K or more Thundering Blast, biggest I saw tonight was 15k and it seemed to average about 8k ish, so the 27% force/tech resistance is nice too.

[thejollygreenone]

off to test, will come back with what results i can get.

 

after a good few parses fishing for good luck, i was able to produce a parse (without modules as requested) that hit 5 minutes with basically exactly 3000.

 

3000/2924= ~1.02

 

1.02% dps increase is the most i could squeeze out of it in the time that my patience allowed. the projected dps increase was 2% for the CS buff alone, i could only estimate another at most 1% for the rest of the class changes that affect infiltrations single target performance. 3% projected dps increase is pretty negligible if you ask me, unless we were already doing 3400 dps. which we aren't. (not counting modules of course)

 

1% is even more negligible. cool i was at 2924 and i broke 3000 because of class changes. does that let me compete with mandos sents and slingers who were already doing 3500? no not even close. i.e. unnoticeable in my opinion. so i have information but my opinion is the same. does this satiate your need for numbers, whoever it was that cared?

[zackmac]

after a good few parses fishing for good luck, i was able to produce a parse (without modules as requested) that hit 5 minutes with basically exactly 3000.

 

3000/2924= ~1.02

 

1.02% dps increase is the most i could squeeze out of it in the time that my patience allowed. the projected dps increase was 2% for the CS buff alone, i could only estimate another at most 1% for the rest of the class changes that affect infiltrations single target performance. 3% projected dps increase is pretty negligible if you ask me, unless we were already doing 3400 dps. which we aren't. (not counting modules of course)

 

1% is even more negligible. cool i was at 2924 and i broke 3000 because of class changes. does that let me compete with mandos sents and slingers who were already doing 3500? no not even close. i.e. unnoticeable in my opinion. so i have information but my opinion is the same. does this satiate your need for numbers, whoever it was that cared?

 

Um so in order to be the least "abrasive" as possible I'll just say your basic algebra is wrong. That's 2.6% more damage, not 1.02%.

[thejollygreenone]

Um so in order to be the least "abrasive" as possible I'll just say your basic algebra is wrong. That's 2.6% more damage, not 1.02%.

 

AHAAHAHA wow! my basic algebra is horribly wrong, shows how long it's been since i took a math class. well that makes me look silly now doesn't it? this is why i try, unsuccessfully might i add, to leave the math to people much better suited for it than i. i just smack a dummy and/or boss until it's dead and then note how i do ^.^ and for the record, that was probably the least abrasive you could be about such a thing, kudos.

 

well anyway, back on subject, that changes the game a little. i'll refine my conclusion in light of this quite idiotic mistake of mine. i did mention the number 3%, assuming it was the most we could look forward to, which i'm still fairly sure isn't enough to be considered competitive with the majority of other specs. what i'll refine is that the change isn't necessarily unnoticeable, because 3% is decent. honestly when my calculator gave me ~1.02 and blindly assumed i wasn't doin it wrong i kinda figured 1% seemed a little low for the gap between 2924 and 3000, but thought nothing of it. i guess that's what makes me bad at math right? ;P

 

anyway, what i'm getting at, i think the general point remains that the given changes don't satisfy what is needed but still leaves us hovering at the bottom of the dps totem poll. which is honestly what i suspected from a 'slight damage increase' such as what we got, iv'e suggested for awhile that the better changes to be made are mechanical ones to our procs to help them run smoother, which will subsequently result in an appropriate dps increase if done correctly.

 

sorry for ranting!

Edited December 4, 2013 by thejollygreenone

[IInox]

why you wait for a luck try? I don't see any sense. you should calc an average dps.

[Sarafain]

@ Jolly

 

I'm only parsing around 2, 700 dps, without modifiers (deception). I'm maybe half oricon gear.

 

Do you mind sharing your rating or percentage for power/surge/crit for comparison?

[thejollygreenone]

@ Jolly

 

I'm only parsing around 2, 700 dps, without modifiers (deception). I'm maybe half oricon gear.

 

Do you mind sharing your rating or percentage for power/surge/crit for comparison?

this is fully buffed and stim'd:

 

Willpower: 3379

Power: 1138

Crit: 413 27.49% (this is meant to be higher, waiting on some upgrades to increase)

Surge: 470 72.96%

Accuracy: 455 100.25%

[Aelanis]

Willpower: 3379

Power: 1138

Crit: 413 27.49% (this is meant to be higher, waiting on some upgrades to increase)

Surge: 470 72.96%

Accuracy: 455 100.25%

 

And those numbers are why his parses are so much better than mine Man I wish my gear was that good.

[thejollygreenone]

And those numbers are why his parses are so much better than mine Man I wish my gear was that good.

 

you're not as far behind me as you think. i'm convinced my parse that broke 3200 was a fluke, as ever since i've barely been able to muster 3100. and if i'm not mistaken you're top parse is around 3090, while the most i've been able to get since that apparently lucky attempt is 3125. 40 dps difference makes a lot more sense as resulting from a gear gap than 140 ^.^

 

which is why i'm so frustrated that mknightrider somehow managed 3400 in infiltration. dude must have godly luck combined with precise skill and better gear than any dps shadow/sin out there, including a 78 mainhand which i unfortunately do not. even if i get a 78 mainhand i couldn't imagine being able to come close to 3400. 3300 seems reasonable if i get as lucky as i did that one time, but 3400? you all should be looking at his parse and gear rather than mine, he's the best example available ^.^

 

he also uses a different opener than i've ever considered, where he ignores spinning kick altogether, and continues to do so throughout the fight. i can find no reason why his rotation would produce such awesome results, but i can't find any real reason why it would do the opposite either. i've tried it a few times and i tend to overcap on force whenever i try. which could be a good thing, but keeps turning into a bad thing for me.

 

the different opener being from stealth force potency>adrenal>force breach>CS>CS>project etc etc.. while the opener i've always used and seems to be common is battlereadiness>adrenal>spinning kick>SS>CS>CS>project etc etc, with a slight variance of the placement of popping battlereadiness adrenal, before or after spinning kick. i do it before just in case spinning kick procs shadow technique so i don't lose on one that could've had a damage buff from battlereadiness.

 

i just thought the lack of spinning kick and therefore different opener was an interesting difference that's worth bringing up.

 

just food for thought, sorry for rambling, i just don't really have anyone to talk about this stuff with

[piccoloj]

After tanking through a few OPs I can say the difference for tanking is much improved. The rotation for the DR buff is kind of annoying to keep up in fights where the target moves, or has different stages, but the spikiness is pretty much gone. The damage while tanking is very much like any other class now: any deaths can be attributed to other factors, not spikiness (e.g. missing an interrupt on corrupter during the Draxus fight kills everyone just the same).

 

Also, in my further parse testing I'm still about 2-3% ahead of infiltration DPS with the CS buff, and can not see any other difference, still lagging way behind other DPS classes by a significant amount.

 

Good thing I can tank again, I had pretty much given up on it with 2.0 changes. Guess I'll work on my sniper for DPS instead...

[Sarafain]

this is fully buffed and stim'd:

 

Willpower: 3379

Power: 1138

Crit: 413 27.49% (this is meant to be higher, waiting on some upgrades to increase)

Surge: 470 72.96%

Accuracy: 455 100.25%

 

Thanks Jolly, I appreciate you answering. I'm gonna be a jerk though and ask some follow up questions:

 

Is he over 100% accuracy intentional? I've been running with 99.52% from having 5 accuracy enhancements, (i just switched 1 for a dread forged implant am now 99.7%)

 

I'm heavier on power and less into crit. Crit about 26.25% and power is around 1200 (sorry don't have access to my toon atm). I was under the assumption 1200 power, 72% surge and then build crit; how inaccurate is that?

[thejollygreenone]

Thanks Jolly, I appreciate you answering. I'm gonna be a jerk though and ask some follow up questions:

 

Is he over 100% accuracy intentional? I've been running with 99.52% from having 5 accuracy enhancements, (i just switched 1 for a dread forged implant am now 99.7%)

 

I'm heavier on power and less into crit. Crit about 26.25% and power is around 1200 (sorry don't have access to my toon atm). I was under the assumption 1200 power, 72% surge and then build crit; how inaccurate is that?

 

you're pretty well off then, however getting to 100% accuracy is quite important, as missing a shadow strike can be devastating. on that note i'm not intentionally going over 100%, it's just the closest i can get to 100 with the way gear works out.

 

as to your second question, power isn't something you want to build enough of then stop, that's what you do with crit. since power never diminishes in it's value it should be the thing that's constantly growing. with that being said, i believe the best value for crit rating in full dread forged is 470 according to current spreadsheets, but i haven't checked in awhile. i'm aiming for a bit lower at 440, for no particular reason. i may raise it after awhile if i feel it will be enough of a difference.

 

and for that matter, i'd say surge isn't something that you build enough of then stop, either. since your choices are between surge and accuracy for that particular stat-slot, and accuracy is only really necessary to get to 100%, the logical choice would be to stop at 100% then spend the rest of that stat-slot on surge. so to sum up, i think you have it backwards, you should aim for 470 (if i'm correct) crit rating and 100% accuracy, then focus on improving power and surge. however a lot of this is just speculation, iv'e never been too in-tune with the math oriented details >_<

 

and don't worry at all about asking questions, i'm happy to depart with what knowledge i have ^.^

[Itathor]

The Op should have called it Shadow/Assassin 2.5 PVE Preliminary Testing , don't you think?

[Aelanis]

you're pretty well off then, however getting to 100% accuracy is quite important, as missing a shadow strike can be devastating. on that note i'm not intentionally going over 100%, it's just the closest i can get to 100 with the way gear works out.

 

as to your second question, power isn't something you want to build enough of then stop, that's what you do with crit. since power never diminishes in it's value it should be the thing that's constantly growing. with that being said, i believe the best value for crit rating in full dread forged is 470 according to current spreadsheets, but i haven't checked in awhile. i'm aiming for a bit lower at 440, for no particular reason. i may raise it after awhile if i feel it will be enough of a difference.

 

and for that matter, i'd say surge isn't something that you build enough of then stop, either. since your choices are between surge and accuracy for that particular stat-slot, and accuracy is only really necessary to get to 100%, the logical choice would be to stop at 100% then spend the rest of that stat-slot on surge. so to sum up, i think you have it backwards, you should aim for 470 (if i'm correct) crit rating and 100% accuracy, then focus on improving power and surge. however a lot of this is just speculation, iv'e never been too in-tune with the math oriented details >_<

 

and don't worry at all about asking questions, i'm happy to depart with what knowledge i have ^.^

 

The thought pattern behind this is spot on. I think you've got the numbers correct, too, but I wouldn't trust my memory today, it's been a REALLY long day of driving for me.

 

As for my own dps, that 3090 was quite a lucky run. Not a total fluke, as I've come close to it a couple times (oddly enough all those attempts were back to back, I should have kept parsing that night ). And my gear has quite a ways to go before I'm nearly caught up with you. You have 100-150 more Willpower, Power, Crit and Surge than I do, so I've got plenty of places to improve. Like my 69/bad 78 enhancements that really need to go. I've also come to the conclusion that I'm really sad I picked the crit proc relic, as while in 2.4, it was probably a bit better than the main stat relic, in 2.5 it's not even a contest. Too many times I've had the crit relic proc and fail to crit, and the last thing Infiltration spec needs is more reliance on RNG.

 

Now, he opens up without, and never uses, spinning kick? Weird. I'd think that placing our single hardest hitting move into the rotation more would increase dps. I don't think he'd even save that much more force, either. I guess it could come from the fact that spinning kick might not do enough damage for the shadow strike to be worth it. Yeah, 10k crits are awesome, but if it doesn't crit, it barely deals 5k total damage, whereas 2x CS probably hits for around 6k. He could be onto something. Only thing is that this is bust if the shadow strike crits, because then it does ludicrous damage. Hmm. Maybe if they changed it so that Infiltration tactics caused it to crit instead of dealing 30% extra damage.... that would be neat. It would smooth out our spikiness and increase overall damage. But there I go rambling, too.

[Aelanis]

So, Jolly....

 

Here's the best I've done with a few minor upgrades. I'm going to try to upgrade my 3 subpar 72 and below enhancements, and see where that gets me, but for the time being, this mostly represents a small increase in power and willpower, and the switch from that crit proc relic to the main stat proc:

 

http://www.torparse.com/a/521040/10/0/Overview

 

Also, it clipped a lot of my damage off of that one :/ But if you look at the right time period, or just calculate it by TTK, it hits about 3120.

[IInox]

it's great, don't try and try and try to have 3200/3300 cause this infiltration is *********** a joke.

[thejollygreenone]

it's great, don't try and try and try to have 3200/3300 cause this infiltration is *********** a joke.

 

lol it's sad how true this is. trying to get lucky enough to not lose all necessary momentum between burst phases is a very painful and seemingly unyielding process. just goes to show how much sustainability is still a problem for this spec.

 

as to your parse, 3120 is pretty damn good. if you have the heart for it, then keep on parsing and i'm sure eventually you'll get better and better parses even without any gear upgrades. with that being said, work with the 1.5mil hp module since i think it's good to look at both.

 

i'm noticing having a high crit chance may not even yield a great parse, and yours isn't even as high as it could be with enough luck. what's important is getting lucky strings of crits at the right time, i.e. about 30 seconds before burst phase when dps is dipping, and then 30 seconds before burst phase coupled with execute phase. a good parse for infiltration with the new hp modules really depends on getting lucky enough to keep momentum with strings of crits when we are farthest away from any controllable burst.

 

unfortunately theres no surefire way to do this so you just hope and watch. if you can get an abnormal crit chance in all the right places beyond having the basic luck to keep up momentum between burst phases, you may be able to get closer to 3200 than you think. also getting a particularly high spinning strike crit chance to boost execute phase helps enormously. just gotta get ungodly lucky ;P (as we all hope to do when parsing, but especially so as infiltration.) also the switch to FR relic from the DV(crit) that you have will certainly help

Edited December 14, 2013 by thejollygreenone

[Aelanis]

These are kinda the conclusions I had drawn. I was doing amazing in that parse, hitting crits at a very good rate while my relics were going, especially on Shadow Strike and Force Breach. I was sitting at 3150 going into the execute phase, and then my luck just turned against me, and I didn't crit on almost any FBs or SSs when it would have been best to crit. Overall, I can say that the 'increase' in damage has been close to negligible, and aside from MKnightrider, no Infiltration Shadow/Deception Assassin can seem to get much above 3250, even in amazing gear.

 

I'd love to see them change 3 stacks of Breaching Shadows so that, rather than each stack boosting damage, each stack adding 20/25% crit chance to your next Force Breach, and maybe reducing the damage a bit. That, or see Shadow Technique's proc rate increased to 50%, and reduce damage a little. Either of these changes, I feel, would be a great fix to our sustained damage issue. It's ridiculous that Hybrid Balance specs can do better damage than Infiltration, even without the 30% Surge bonus to DoTs :/

[Aelanis]

Finally got my lucky parse

 

I'm pretty sure it puts me in at number 5 on the boards, just 1.7 dps behind Jaberse. I wouldn't normally have clipped it, except that I was so ready to hit it one last time that I hit the dummy at full health with no armor debuff and no health debuff. Oops.

 

TORParse link

AMR

[IInox]

yeah, totally nice initial dps 4700+ lolwut