2 Years of sub... where is the box sized expansion?

[Vandicus]

I'm not saying they should copy WoW in every regard. But in the end, the wait time is worth it for the ammount of content you get. Compare everything a boxed WoW expansion has to the 2 daily areas and 2 raids they get a year. Looks worth it to me.

 

The reason WoW has slim content patches is because they save developed content for an expansion.

 

If ToR reserved everything from 1.5 forward for an expansion and packaged it with GS(subtracting 2 daily areas and 2 raids to deliver as content throughout the year), we'd have a WoW-sized expansion they could sell us.

 

TOR has basically delivered more content in the same period of time, but not charged us an additional fee for it. WoW has way higher revenue than TOR based on subscribers alone, so its clearly not the xpac money that allows them to develop content.

[Andryah]

I want an expansion equal in size to a boxed expansion. The game needs it, the players need it. I have already said that i would be fine with a digital one aswell. At the end of the day i just want more SWTOR goodness.

 

1) are you willing to wait 3 years for it... like is common in other MMOs?

 

2) by the amount of disagreement with you in this thread... NO... NOT all players need it. You do.. but that's you. Others are free to disagree and you can accept it or not.

 

3) personally, I'd rather have 33% per year over three years then nothing for three years and then 100%. (or whatever apportionment over time that adds up the same way... it does not matter). In other words.. I value smaller more frequent expacs more then I do large ones only every few years. Others has stated the same preference.

 

Or are you one of those double standard cake&eat_it_too types that want 100% every year.. even though no MMO actually does that?

Edited November 30, 2013 by Andryah

[aeterno]

The reason WoW has slim content patches is because they save developed content for an expansion.

 

If ToR reserved everything from 1.5 forward for an expansion and packaged it with GS(subtracting 2 daily areas and 2 raids to deliver as content throughout the year), we'd have a WoW-sized expansion they could sell us.

 

TOR has basically delivered more content in the same period of time, but not charged us an additional fee for it. WoW has way higher revenue than TOR based on subscribers alone, so its clearly not the xpac money that allows them to develop content.

 

That simply is not true even with the cherry picking.

 

Since MoP launched they patched in the same amount of raids we got and more pvp content. There is no way you can stack TOR and WoW patch notes side by side and say BW is kicking toosh in that area. I wish it were so but it is not. No way in HADES can you claim that since say Cata and upto now not going a boxed expansion TOR was able to field more content that what WoW did in it's patches + MOP.

 

Objectively speaking it's understandable, the effort BW needs to put in is probably on another level to that of Blizz.

 

Still I don't understand how you people are arguing with the OP that LESS content is somehow better lol. This is defense mode overkill. Stop focusing on the distribution method or clinging to the notion that DLCs are the way of the future. Guy is asking where is the fat feature and content rich periodic expansion to his MMO. Are you all able to keep a str8 face when telling him "No no no, we don't really need or want any of that. Sticking a team on a portion of the lower half of wall of crazy with a deadline in 18 months, that's so 2001..."? It's ok to wish for something more in life you know lol.

Edited November 30, 2013 by aeterno

[Vandicus]

That simply is not true even with the cherry picking.

 

Since MoP launched they patched in the same amount of raids we got and more pvp content. There is no way you can stack TOR and WoW patch notes side by side and say BW is kicking toosh in that area. I wish it were so but it is not. No way in HADES can you claim that since say Cata and upto now not going a boxed expansion TOR was able to field more content that what WoW did in it's patches + MOP.

 

Objectively speaking it's understandable, the effort BW needs to put in is probably on another level to that of Blizz.

 

Still I don't understand how you people are arguing with the OP that LESS content is somehow better lol. This is defense mode overkill. Stop focusing on the distribution method or clinging to the notion that DLCs are the way of the future. Guy is asking where is the fat feature and content rich periodic expansion to his MMO. Are you all able to keep a str8 face when telling him "No no no, we don't really need or want any of that. Sticking a team on a portion of the lower half of wall of crazy with a deadline in 18 months, that's so 2001..."? It's ok to wish for something more in life you know lol.

 

Since TOR's launch, the only content WoW provided was from MoP on forward. All cata content was released prior to TOR's launch.

 

So compare WoW's xpac patch 5.0, and the patches 5.1,5.2,5.3, and 5.4,

 

To every TOR patch made since launch.

 

 

No one is arguing for less content. We're simply debating whether we'd receive more content from the proposed model.

[tekhiun]

you will get it on the next 3 years , except wont be in a box but on small dlcs that you will pay individually for each part and each part will be called a "digital expansion". enjoy

[aeterno]

Since TOR's launch, the only content WoW provided was from MoP on forward. All cata content was released prior to TOR's launch.

 

So compare WoW's xpac patch 5.0, and the patches 5.1,5.2,5.3, and 5.4,

 

To every TOR patch made since launch.

 

Compare it and tell me TORs model is resulting in noticeably more content added.

 

I don't think it does. And when the next expansion hits for them all doubt will be gone as GS won't go far towards keeping pace as neat as it is.

 

No one is arguing for less content. We're simply debating whether we'd receive more content from the proposed model.

 

And these debates are based on assumptions. You are assuming we would get less because you're operating under the assumption the devs would put the same ammount of resources into the game as they do now, just pooling content. I'm assuming a commitment to a boxed expansion would come with additional resources for it's production. Existing team is keeping parity with WoW at best. But whereas they have additional resources already working on the xpac AFTER the now upcoming xpac TOR looks like it's is just plugging holes and living 6-8 weeks at a time.

 

So basically what the OP is asking is not "hey Jeff Hickman why don't you reshuffle your existing work schedule into another model?" but "hey Andrew Wilson, where is the commitment/ambition?".

Edited November 30, 2013 by aeterno

[Vandicus]

Compare it and tell me TORs model is resulting in noticeably more content added.

 

I don't think it does. And when the next expansion hits for them all doubt will be gone as GS won't go far towards keeping pace as neat as it is.

 

 

 

And these debates are based on assumptions. You are assuming we would get less because you're operating under the assumption the devs would put the same ammount of resources into the game as they do now, just pooling content. I'm assuming a commitment to a boxed expansion would come with additional resources for it's production. Existing team is keeping parity with WoW at best. But whereas they have additional resources already working on the xpac AFTER the now upcoming xpac TOR looks like it's is just plugging holes and living 6-8 weeks at a time.

 

So basically what the OP is asking is not "hey Jeff Hickman why don't you reshuffle your existing work schedule into another model?" but "hey Andrew Wilson, where is the commitment/ambition?".

 

 

Do you think TOR's model is adding noticeably less?

 

Quite frankly TOR has only a fraction of the resources WoW does. The fact that WoW packages and then charges an additional $50 for their content doesn't seem to have given them any special advantage over TOR in development, despite their ridiculously massive advantage over TOR in terms of resources.

 

I believe that an attempt to release box-sized expansions in TOR would largely be a reshuffling of work schedule rather than an increase in development staff.

Even optimistically speaking, the sales revenue from the expansion would be less than a third of the regular revenue generated by the game. The sales would not be enough to drive significant content expansion. Assuming a one third increase in revenue would equal a one third increase in content, it would take a minimum of 3 years to develop anything approaching the size of a regular $50 expansion.

 

I'd be willing to buy such an expansion, but I sincerely doubt the company would use their resources like that. They are after all, a business.

 

*EDIT

 

Just realized the logic was flawed. There would not be funding for the last 2 years of xpac development. Point being that the sale from an xpac probably do not cover advertising and development of the xpac.

Edited November 30, 2013 by Vandicus

[Nemmar]

Do you think TOR's model is adding noticeably less?

 

Quite frankly TOR has only a fraction of the resources WoW does. The fact that WoW packages and then charges an additional $50 for their content doesn't seem to have given them any special advantage over TOR in development, despite their ridiculously massive advantage over TOR in terms of resources.

 

I believe that an attempt to release box-sized expansions in TOR would largely be a reshuffling of work schedule rather than an increase in development staff.

Even optimistically speaking, the sales revenue from the expansion would be less than a third of the regular revenue generated by the game. The sales would not be enough to drive significant content expansion. Assuming a one third increase in revenue would equal a one third increase in content, it would take a minimum of 3 years to develop anything approaching the size of a regular $50 expansion.

 

I'd be willing to buy such an expansion, but I sincerely doubt the company would use their resources like that. They are after all, a business.

 

*EDIT

 

Just realized the logic was flawed. There would not be funding for the last 2 years of xpac development. Point being that the sale from an xpac probably do not cover advertising and development of the xpac.

 

Sorry, but you're using falseties on your post to make a point. The game has less than 500k subs. It needs 500k subs to break even unless the contract with Lucas has changed after the Disney aquisition. Of course, on top of that CM revenue is making it a profit.

The game is not getting noticeably more content than WoW, its getting comparable, but WoW will soon have a full new expansion and alot more content comparatively. I'm not saying WoW is doing it all right cause they arent, but the pace things are going with SWTOR is leading things to a bad place. The game cant survive long term with just this kind of small content.

 

An expansion is the only hope for the game the way i see it. Its the only way to finance a big chunk of content to the game and keep players satisfied. And this is not from a point of view that some things might be broken or insane demand on the performance of the game, its from the point of view that i want more of the same to play, because there just isnt enough.

Edited December 1, 2013 by Nemmar

[Andryah]

The game has less than 500k subs. It needs 500k subs to break even unless the contract with Lucas has changed after the Disney aquisition. Of course, on top of that CM revenue is making it a profit.

 

You should probably steer clear of business discussion about the game (particularly as a basis for your desires), because respectfully.. you are neither accurate nor objective at it.

 

1) nobody actually knows how many active subs there are at any given time....except Bioware. We can however create ranged estimates of how many active players there are (which is between 1M to as many as 2M). I personally believe based on my assessment that it's run rate is a little over 1M active players on a continuing basis.

 

2) It's a flexible access game now... and so subs really do not matter.. what matters is how many active players they have and what the average revenue per player per month is. Even conservative estimates put this at around a million players, out of a pool of 10 million less frequent players.

 

3) the break even at 500K number is 2 years old and was never tied solely to LucasArts licensing fees (which they only acknowledged vaguely as a profit sharing license structure). In other words.. it's an old and obsolete metric. If you remember... when the game began losing subs in 2012.. they did a massive restructuring of Bioware operations. This was to resize the division to more properly match the projected revenue from operations. In other words.. they resized their operation for their business actuals while they reset the game for a flexible access model.

 

4) SWTOR is clearly quite profitable over the last year as evidenced by EA talking about it's contributions to revenue and profits in their quarterly earnings... something they would not do if it were not doing well.

 

You can huff and puff and demand all you want.. but the fact is the game is doing well, is gaining players both new and returning players.....and even perpetual critics of the game generally admit it is moving forward in a positive manner. They have stated that they plan to do more frequent but smaller expacs.. so get used to it or find a game that better suits your needs for expac size.

Edited December 1, 2013 by Andryah

[Vandicus]

Sorry, but you're using falseties on your post to make a point. The game has less than 500k subs. It needs 500k subs to break even unless the contract with Lucas has changed after the Disney aquisition. Of course, on top of that CM revenue is making it a profit.

The game is not getting noticeably more content than WoW, its getting comparable, but WoW will soon have a full new expansion and alot more content comparatively. I'm not saying WoW is doing it all right cause they arent, but the pace things are going with SWTOR is leading things to a bad place. The game cant survive long term with just this kind of small content.

 

An expansion is the only hope for the game the way i see it. Its the only way to finance a big chunk of content to the game and keep players satisfied. And this is not from a point of view that some things might be broken or insane demand on the performance of the game, its from the point of view that i want more of the same to play, because there just isnt enough.

 

And double of 500k is 1million(as I've mentioned several times now the revenue is in great part due to the CM).

 

http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/05/07/free-to-play-model-more-than-doubled-the-revenue-of-star-wars-t/

 

Even considering sub revenue alone(~$90 million/year) the revenue from your estimated expansion sales would not cover enough development for a WoW-sized expansion.

 

What do you consider soon? We'll probably be on 3.0 or beyond by the time WoW's next expansion comes out(probably looking at anywhere between 4-6 content patches which is between 8-12months).

[Pietrastor]

I think it has more to do with the fact that SWTOR can't allow itself for 2 year breaks between expansions. WOW can (could?) but with smaller audience, it's a better plan IMO to release smaller expansions more regularly.

[BrianDavion]

Seems to still be working for WoW.

 

WoW's losing subscriptions. I question weather or not that model IS working for them as well as it used to. and if it would work in a "new market"

[TheOnlyKyrenS]

It's not so much about an expansion it is retaining subs. You can blow through this game like nothing then people complain that there is no content. So instead of making people wait for big expansions and pooling everything into it, they release it gradually over time as to keep people playing. With that said, I too would like to see a WoW sized expansion.

[aeterno]

Do you think TOR's model is adding noticeably less?

 

 

Just realized the logic was flawed. There would not be funding for the last 2 years of xpac development. Point being that the sale from an xpac probably do not cover advertising and development of the xpac.

 

Are you serious, the MMO xpac development is about as easy cash in as you can get. You know for a fact all your subs and a good chunk f2p will buy it + you'll get a surge of return customers.

 

And on the other hand the IP is in place, the studio is in place, the tools are in place, the product is already established/known... production cost is really minimal compared to creating and launching a new title. Sales wouldn't cover the advertisement and development? Seriously? How on earth did the gaming industry survive till Origin launched then and they came up with DLCs? How did KOTOR itself not sink BW, it only sold like 2 mil boxes in total lol and they had to pay for shelf space, the IP, and the development/marketing from SCRATCH.

 

You're just making up reasons why a positive thing cant be done at this point. Decades of experience tells us it can be done cos it has been done. They're choosing not to do it anymore cos it's better for their bottom line. I can understand that the EA CEO wants to squeeze out as much profit for as little of an investment as possible. What I'll never understand is gamers defending it and thinking that's a good thing. I as a gamer would like a top notch service and content provided. Have the product I'm using strive to be the best in the biz, to chase the standard set by the leader of the pack. I don't care if that means putting a short term dent in EAs bottom line. You gotta spend money to make money. I'm not sure why you lot care more about the corporate than the gaming side.

Edited December 1, 2013 by aeterno

[Nemmar]

You should probably steer clear of business discussion about the game (particularly as a basis for your desires), because respectfully.. you are neither accurate nor objective at it.

 

1) nobody actually knows how many active subs there are at any given time....except Bioware. We can however create ranged estimates of how many active players there are (which is between 1M to as many as 2M). I personally believe based on my assessment that it's run rate is a little over 1M active players on a continuing basis.

 

2) It's a flexible access game now... and so subs really do not matter.. what matters is how many active players they have and what the average revenue per player per month is. Even conservative estimates put this at around a million players, out of a pool of 10 million less frequent players.

 

3) the break even at 500K number is 2 years old and was never tied solely to LucasArts licensing fees (which they only acknowledged vaguely as a profit sharing license structure). In other words.. it's an old and obsolete metric. If you remember... when the game began losing subs in 2012.. they did a massive restructuring of Bioware operations. This was to resize the division to more properly match the projected revenue from operations. In other words.. they resized their operation for their business actuals while they reset the game for a flexible access model.

 

4) SWTOR is clearly quite profitable over the last year as evidenced by EA talking about it's contributions to revenue and profits in their quarterly earnings... something they would not do if it were not doing well.

 

You can huff and puff and demand all you want.. but the fact is the game is doing well, is gaining players both new and returning players.....and even perpetual critics of the game generally admit it is moving forward in a positive manner. They have stated that they plan to do more frequent but smaller expacs.. so get used to it or find a game that better suits your needs for expac size.

 

There is a statement of an EA spokesperson about it. I didnt made it up. I dont have the link but i have seen it here in the forums.

Just to prove it to you, heres a link from may saying the game was on 500k subs:

http://swtorii.blogspot.nl/2013/05/notes-ea-financial-call-q4-results.html

 

As for the terms of the contract with Lucas after the Disney aquisition we obviously know nothing about.

Still the point is to evaluate the flow of cash of the game and its a perfectly viable logic. The subs are paying the contract. The Cartel is making the profit. Even if the subs are bringing some profit aswell.

Now guess what happens when the game doesnt have enough new content to keep all those players about. To be honest with you, the people spending all that money on the shop are in great part the subs, cause they are the ones that still care.

Edited December 1, 2013 by Nemmar

[Osoygatitalove]

would love another physical collectors edition

[Nemmar]

It's not so much about an expansion it is retaining subs. You can blow through this game like nothing then people complain that there is no content. So instead of making people wait for big expansions and pooling everything into it, they release it gradually over time as to keep people playing. With that said, I too would like to see a WoW sized expansion.

 

Who is saying "pooling everything" into it. It has been said time and again that to develop a new prices expansion you get the budget to get more developers working on the game. It will always give you more content than just having the live team slowly working on small content.

 

They are not gonna release the equivalant of an expansion bit by bit cause they wont have the budget to develop that much content without the revenue from an extra sale.

[Vandicus]

There is a statement of an EA spokesperson about it. I didnt made it up. I dont have the link but i have seen it here in the forums.

Just to prove it to you, heres a link from may saying the game was on 500k subs:

http://swtorii.blogspot.nl/2013/05/notes-ea-financial-call-q4-results.html

 

As for the terms of the contract with Lucas after the Disney aquisition we obviously know nothing about.

Still the point is to evaluate the flow of cash of the game and its a perfectly viable logic. The subs are paying the contract. The Cartel is making the profit. Even if the subs are bringing some profit aswell.

Now guess what happens when the game doesnt have enough new content to keep all those players about. To be honest with you, the people spending all that money on the shop are in great part the subs, cause they are the ones that still care.

 

Which I've addressed and said several times that all indications are we are sitting at a revenue stream of about twice that of 500k subs.

 

http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/05/07/free-to-play-model-more-than-doubled-the-revenue-of-star-wars-t/

 

Point being expansion sales would only represent a portion of one year's revenue, and not be nearly enough to fund development on par with two or three years of normal development.

 

 

You have basically been suggesting that a 9% increase in total revenue over a three year period would result in a near doubling in content produced. That's simply not plausible.

[Nemmar]

Which I've addressed and said several times that all indications are we are sitting at a revenue stream of about twice that of 500k subs.

 

http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/05/07/free-to-play-model-more-than-doubled-the-revenue-of-star-wars-t/

 

Point being expansion sales would only represent a portion of one year's revenue, and not be nearly enough to fund development on par with two or three years of normal development.

 

 

You have basically been suggesting that a 9% increase in total revenue over a three year period would result in a near doubling in content produced. That's simply not plausible.

 

 

The development budget for the expansion gets the returns on the boxed/digital sales of the expansion. The advantages to the sub numbers are recurrent revenue wich you dont factor in, aswell as additional CM purchases.

The returns would be alot more than 9%. That number is completely ficticious and you're assuming the game has a millions subbers, wich it doesnt. The sales on the CM market arent recurrent, they are more volatile than subs revenue.

Besides, obviously the values in consumer trust that would arise from it. More consumer trust means more people are willing to invest their time in the game and sub.

 

You know what doesnt bring additional profits? Doing nothing but a planet, 2 daily areas,2 flashpoints and 2 operations a year. That isnt gonna bring you increased revenue. And without content, the volatile revenue that is the CM crashes down cause no one is playing anymore. CM revenue relies on the premise of an active game. If theres no content to play, people wont play and therefore wont buy anything. At the moment, the only way is down. Yeah it makes some profit, wich im happy about, but it wont be bringing life to the game. Its gonna be a slow and painful death.

Edited December 1, 2013 by Nemmar

[Rankyn]

You know what doesnt bring additional profits? Doing nothing but a planet, 2 daily areas,2 flashpoints and 2 operations a year.

And you know this because you've personally inspected BioWare's books?

[Nemmar]

And you know this because you've personally inspected BioWare's books?

 

I go by the example of what they did this year. What are you going by?

Edited December 2, 2013 by Nemmar

[Andryah]

I go by the example of what they did this year. What are you going by?

 

Odd, because EA has announced quarter over quarter profits from SWTOR worthy of them bragging about as part of the earnings calls. So I think the revenue and profit end of things is doing quite well in 2013.

 

Why not just be honest about this and state that you personally want large boxed expacs (like you started the thread with) and stop trying to create the appearance of caring about revenue and profits for EA?

 

We get it. You are a big expac (boxed preferred) player. And in fairness to the discussion in this thread you need to get it -------> they have made it clear they are going with the smaller more frequent digital expac approach. AND most players are OK with this as they prefer a steady stream rather then long droughts between expacs.

Edited December 2, 2013 by Andryah

[JimG]

It's 2013....not 2003. Box-sized expansions are yesterday's news. Most games have gone the way of DLC and providing smaller updates but they are cheaper and come quicker than the old full-size expansions. WoW does full-size expansions and they are released every 2 years. Sounds like that's the game you're looking for.

[AlienEyeTX]

It's 2013....not 2003. Box-sized expansions are yesterday's news. Most games have gone the way of DLC and providing smaller updates but they are cheaper and come quicker than the old full-size expansions. WoW does full-size expansions and they are released every 2 years. Sounds like that's the game you're looking for.

 

Yes, boxed expansions were useful because we didn't have time to download regular content updates over our dial-up connections. Standard bug patches took forever. With cable/dsl internet in our homes, there is no longer a need to distribute software via physical media.

[Aries_cz]

Simply put, the physical distribution model is slowly dying.

 

Why would the company give half their profit to stores to get the shelf space, when they can pay fraction of it for having it hosted on some server farm? With high speed Internet in most households (especially households of players), downloading something for extended period of time is almost a thing of the past.

 

WoW took a year long hiatus from ANY patches while they were developing Pandas. A year. A year without any new content or fixes. They can afford it, because their player base is just as well conditioned as the customer base of Apple, but most other companies cannot afford that. Especially when that company gets slandered every day in press for being "the worst company of the year" (I will not rant here on how stupid that poll is)

 

I agree that collector editions are a nice thing, I love having a box with game-related goodies in it, but I understand why there is the shift from physical distribution. Possibly, in near future, physical distribution will come back with 3D printers at every home (you you can 3D print your collector goodies if you want to), but that will still take some time (and even more time until we have actual mass replicators)