A Few questions about Vanguard Tanking

[crazylegoman]

So, my primary alt is a vanguard tank, and though I consider myself fairly proficient (I've tanked TFB and S&V SM), and I don't lose aggro, I'm still looking for tips, and the majority of threads seem to be about Shadows and Guardians, and Vanguards seem to be a bit neglected.

 

First off: What are the BIS tanking stats for a vanguard? I've seen the theory-crafting threads, but all the numbers seem a bit confusing, and if someone could post them as the percentages that I'd end up with, it would be very helpful. Currently I'm aiming for a 20% Defense, 40% Shield, 40% Absorb build, but if that isn't BIS, I would like to know.

 

Secondly, What is the best opener for a Vanguard tank? I've seen it posted for the other two tanks, but I haven't found it for Vanguards. My opener is as follows:

 

1. Storm
   
2. Explosive Surge
   
3. Explosive Surge
   
4. Shockstrike
   
5. High Impact Bolt
   
6. Energy Blast
   
7. Ion Pulse
   

 

If there is any constructive criticism anyone could offer, that would be much appreciated.

[leto_cleon]

In terms of stats, you can use KBN's or Dipstick's recommendations. Before looking at what they recommend find the sum of your defence, shield and absorb ratings and round it up to the closet 100. Once you have that scroll to the Vanguard section and check the recommendation for the appropriate stat budget.

 

Hmm... in the normal opening rotation for a Guardian, it would be Saber Throw, Taunt, Leap followed by the rest of the rotation. I would guess that a Vanguard would start with Harpoon, Taunt, Storm, followed by the rest of the rotation.

[cs_zoltan]

I'd like to know the opener too

 

But about this:

Hmm... in the normal opening rotation for a Guardian, it would be Saber Throw, Taunt, Leap followed by the rest of the rotation. I would guess that a Vanguard would start with Harpoon, Taunt, Storm, followed by the rest of the rotation.

Harpoon has low threat, around 2,4k instead of 9k of shadow's pull. Guardian use saber throw for the focus not the threat afaik. And for last the later you use taunt the more effective it is so you shouldn't taunt straight after leap.

[leto_cleon]

And for last the later you use taunt the more effective it is so you shouldn't taunt straight after leap.

 

That is actually incorrect. Saber throwing, taunting from range before leaping guarantees that you get 130% extra threat. If you taunt from melee range (especially for bosses with small hit boxes) its only 110%. The practice of getting 130% extra threat instead of 110% for the initial taunts basically makes it much smoother for DPS with bursty openers. Late taunts also run into a who variety of problems with aggro drop mechanics and tank swaps. The initial 130% plus the rest of the high threat abilities should be more than enough to keep aggro (well... unless crazy DPS has a string of ungodly crit hits). Taunting before a leap is essential for guardian, might not be the case for vanguards.

[cs_zoltan]

That is actually incorrect. Saber throwing, taunting from range before leaping guarantees that you get 130% extra threat. If you taunt from melee range (especially for bosses with small hit boxes) its only 110%. The practice of getting 130% extra threat instead of 110% for the initial taunts basically makes it much smoother for DPS with bursty openers. Late taunts also run into a who variety of problems with aggro drop mechanics and tank swaps. The initial 130% plus the rest of the high threat abilities should be more than enough to keep aggro (well... unless crazy DPS has a string of ungodly crit hits). Taunting before a leap is essential for guardian, might not be the case for vanguards.

 

I know you get more if you taunt more than 4m away, but that doesn't change that: threat of saber throw+leap+whatnot * 1,1 > threat of saber throw * 1,3. I'm by no means the most experienced tank, I just state what other said in the threat thread and what little experience I got so far

[Marb]

Not sure about Vanguard opener other then trying to Stockstrike asap before a proc, and not using grapple as a threat builder. I think there are some max threat vs. max mitigation interaction to consider with ion cell procs as well.

 

 

That is actually incorrect. Saber throwing, taunting from range before leaping guarantees that you get 130% extra threat. If you taunt from melee range (especially for bosses with small hit boxes) its only 110%. The practice of getting 130% extra threat instead of 110% for the initial taunts basically makes it much smoother for DPS with bursty openers. Late taunts also run into a who variety of problems with aggro drop mechanics and tank swaps. The initial 130% plus the rest of the high threat abilities should be more than enough to keep aggro (well... unless crazy DPS has a string of ungodly crit hits). Taunting before a leap is essential for guardian, might not be the case for vanguards.

 

But that is only 130% of saber throw's threat, which is nothing compared to what you would get if you delayed it until after guardian slash. I understand the problem with saber throw, and how it puts the tank a full GCD behind the dps, so that's probably the real issue you are fighting against by using a taunt after throw.

Edited November 21, 2013 by Marb

[leto_cleon]

But that is only 130% of saber throw's threat, which is nothing compared to what you would get if you delayed it until after guardian slash. I understand the problem with saber throw, and how it puts the tank a full GCD behind the dps, so that's probably the real issue you are fighting against by using a taunt after throw.

 

Leaving the taunt till after Guardian slash is just a recipe for letting DPS pull aggro off. Once DPS pull off, a taunt a melee range on a boss with a small hit box is only 110% extra threat, which is not enough when MDPS get crazy crits or RDPS pulls. It's better to taunt boost after the fist range hit and then taunt boost again after taunt comes off cooldown.

[Sarapham]

Please try to keep this about Vanguards, there is already threads about Guardians.

 

Regarding openers, using 2 explosive surges straight off is wasteful and does not give enough aggro. What I usually go for is Sticky grenade - Storm - Stockstrike - High impact bolt - Energy blast (if available) - Pulse cannon (Does not matter if procced or not) and then you can do the free Explosive surges while you regen ammo.

 

A Vanguard's rotation is all about keeping Energy blast buff up as much as possible with a sprinkling of Ion Pulse for damage reduction and Pulse cannon for straight damage. That means Stockstrike and High Impact Bolt is high priority, pretty much used on cooldown.. as is Energy Blast of course. Normal Hammer shot is actually really good to use for vanguards because of the Ion cell proc chance so do not be afraid to use it.

Edited November 21, 2013 by Sarapham

[Kuciwalker]

Secondly, What is the best opener for a Vanguard tank? I've seen it posted for the other two tanks, but I haven't found it for Vanguards. My opener is as follows:

 

1. Storm
   
2. Explosive Surge
   
3. Explosive Surge
   
4. Shockstrike
   
5. High Impact Bolt
   
6. Energy Blast
   
7. Ion Pulse
   

 

If there is any constructive criticism anyone could offer, that would be much appreciated.

 

Unless I need AOE threat fast, I do:

 

1. Storm
   
2. Stockstrike
   
3. High Impact Bolt
   
4. Energy Blast (has probably procced)
   
5. Pulse Cannon (if procced)
   
6. Stockstrike (if procced)
   
7. Ion Pulse
   

 

After this, if I didn't get the Pulse Cannon proc, I fish for it a bit with Hammer Shot. I hang on to the Static Surge charges to mix into my rotation when I want to recover ammo and can't get a new Power Screen or Pulse Engine proc (if I can get either of those, I use Hammer Shot instead).

 

I don't really agree with Sarapham about opening with sticky grenade, except on trash (and even then usually only when mortar volley is on CD).

Edited November 21, 2013 by Kuciwalker

[leto_cleon]

Regarding openers, using 2 explosive surges straight off is wasteful and does not give enough aggro. What I usually go for is Sticky grenade - Storm - Stockstrike - High impact bolt - Energy blast (if available) - Pulse cannon (Does not matter if procced or not) and then you can do the free Explosive surges while you regen ammo.

 

Hmm... sticky grenade > harpoon. That sounds broken to me.

Edited November 22, 2013 by leto_cleon

[ZentheSecond]

Does Full Auto/Unload ever make an appearance in a rotation? Like a proper one.

 

I use it when I have to kite/stay at range, like the Artillery Droids in Olok fight for example. But a PT tank I spoke with mentioned that Unload has the proc chance of Ion in it as its a pistol shot. So it is actually a good threat gen mechanic because of that. And I think this is true, but the thing is.... Well, I have no clue.

 

 

As for opening rotations...

Yeah never use harpoon/grapple... Well not never. I use it to pull wayward enemies into AoE clusters, or pull the lone guy running for a healer back to me for a rocket punch.

[space_mechanic]

Does Full Auto/Unload ever make an appearance in a rotation?

Nope, because it eats energy fast and requires you to stand in place; damage is not that great too.

Full Auto is buffed in commando trees, but it has nothing to do with any vanguard spec.

Use Hammer Shot instead.

Edited November 22, 2013 by space_mechanic

[Sarapham]

I don't really agree with Sarapham about opening with sticky grenade, except on trash (and even then usually only when mortar volley is on CD).

 

I guess it depends a bit on when your group starts doing damage, but in my case our smugglers start with synched freighter fly-bys. So I time the sticky to just before the fly-bys hit and storm just as they do, giving me more overall damage in the starting rotation without losing any time.

[cxten]

I guess it depends a bit on when your group starts doing damage, but in my case our smugglers start with synched freighter fly-bys. So I time the sticky to just before the fly-bys hit and storm just as they do, giving me more overall damage in the starting rotation without losing any time.

 

I've been wondering about sticky grenade. Does it aggro when it sticks to the mob, or when it explodes?

 

If when it explodes, it's of course a fantastic opener.

 

If when it sticks, then I imagine you'd be better served storming slightly before their flyby hits and then getting on with stockstrike etc instead of using sticky grenade slightly before.

 

Unless there's significant travel time, in which case it would be good as it only aggroes maybe half a gcd before storm, and this is good threat per second as an opener.

 

I'll look at some logs when I get a chance.

[Sarapham]

I've been wondering about sticky grenade. Does it aggro when it sticks to the mob, or when it explodes?

 

If when it explodes, it's of course a fantastic opener.

 

If when it sticks, then I imagine you'd be better served storming slightly before their flyby hits and then getting on with stockstrike etc instead of using sticky grenade slightly before.

 

Unless there's significant travel time, in which case it would be good as it only aggroes maybe half a gcd before storm, and this is good threat per second as an opener.

 

I'll look at some logs when I get a chance.

 

Sticky grenade does aggro when it hits the target, rather than exploding. Though as you say there is a travel time to take into account which usually means that your storm is less than a second away. Though since DPS does not actually get any threat on the boss until fly-by hits then the time-lag in using sticky is negliable right before storm.

[Kuciwalker]

I guess it depends a bit on when your group starts doing damage, but in my case our smugglers start with synched freighter fly-bys. So I time the sticky to just before the fly-bys hit and storm just as they do, giving me more overall damage in the starting rotation without losing any time.

 

It does cost you time, though, because even though the damage is delayed the aggro/start of fight is not.

 

edit: I'll admit I hadn't considered the travel time - at 30m it may technically be the correct answer, though I'm a little skeptical since stockstrike/HIB is so important.

Edited November 22, 2013 by Kuciwalker

[Marb]

I'm almost positive sticky grenade generates 1 threat on attachment and then damage threat when it detonates. In addition to the travel time, it's probably not worth using in most single target openers. You also risk wasting a stockstrike proc.

 

Need a log to confirm this though.

[MGNMTTRN]

At the time of throw, Sticky grenade generates 1 threat on all enemies who aggro due to its throw. At time of detonation Sticky grenade deals strictly less damage than Ion Pulse. Any player who leaps in after you throw your Sticky Grenade will have the same aggro as you (1 threat on all enemies). This is extremely dangerous because the mobs will be as likely to go after you as anyone else in melee range. Don't use Sticky Grenade for single-target damage and don't use it to initiate combat with a group of ranged enemies.

 

The skill tree claims Explosive Surge gets a threat modifier of 2 (from stance) +0.05 (from tree) but it's actually threat = 2 (from stance) + 0.3 (from tree). This, combined with Explosive Surge's slightly higher damage compared to Ion Pulse and higher threat (Ion Pulse gets crit rate = Tech Crit +6, Explosive Surge gets Tech Crit + 6 + 8), makes Explosive Surge the highest threat ability that you have that is spammable.

 

Your opener for max threat should be something like... Battle Focus, Mortar Volley, Storm (if you have to close the gap), Stockstrike, HIB, Explsoive Surge, Explosive Surge, Pulse Cannon, with Shoulder Cannon mixed in on cooldown. The priorities are arguable, but the abilities themselves aren't. Sticky Grenade, Full Auto, and Harpoon have no place in Vanguard openers or even Vanguard single-target rotations.

 

A Storm, Esurge x 2 opener makes you waste the first 4.5 seconds of ammo regen, so that's 22.5 ammo cells you'll never get back.

 

My Full Auto's spread is 1200-1359 damage/second so presuming 0.7 kinetic damage reduction its expected damage for one tick is (1200+1359)*0.7*(1+0.1819*0.51)/2 = 978 DPS. My Ion Pulse's reported spread is 1328-1426 so its expected damage per cast is (1328+1426)*1.0*(1+0.2461*0.51)/2 = 1549, or 1549/1.5 = 1033 DPS. Full Auto costs 66% of the ammo that 2x Ion Pulse would, but considering if you get hit while channeling Full Auto you may push back an entire tick, that alone should justify your never casting it in an operation.

 

It is true that Full Auto can proc your Eblast cooldown regeneration but your friend is still not thinking about it correctly. Every tick of ranged damage can proc the Eblast cooldown; for Powertechs, their autoattack deals 5 ticks of ranged damage over 1.5 seconds. Vanguard autoattack deals 7 ticks of ranged damage over 1.5 seconds, while Full Auto deals 3 ticks of ranged damage over 3 seconds. If you're trying to proc your Eblast cooldown, the autoattack is the way to go. In fact, the autoattack even deals competitive damage with Full Auto; my autoattack spread is 1026-1253 at 84% accuracy with a 61.5% chance to renew the Ion Cell DOT and a 61.5% chance to reduce the cooldown on energy blast by 1 second... and of course reducing the cooldown on Energy Blast increases your DPS (because you're casting it more in the same space of time, and getting back more ammo in the same space of time) and it decreases your chance of dying.

 

If you have a lot of time on your hands check out my write-up of Vanguard threat options. This post that you're presently reading is basically the condensed form of that post that I linked.

 

I think it's pointless to try to hold threat without taunts through an opener from a Gunslinger like Flyby, Aimed Shot, relic + adrenal + target acquired + Speed Shot. It's risky and there's no reason why it should be possible. Of course it is possible to keep aggro if you get lucky and he doesn't. But I'd rather not put my raid group's survival in the hands of the dice gods; that's why I'm on a Vanguard in the first place.

Edited November 26, 2013 by MGNMTTRN

[HBCentaurion]

Does Full Auto/Unload ever make an appearance in a rotation? Like a proper one.

 

I use it when I have to kite/stay at range, like the Artillery Droids in Olok fight for example. But a PT tank I spoke with mentioned that Unload has the proc chance of Ion in it as its a pistol shot. So it is actually a good threat gen mechanic because of that. And I think this is true, but the thing is.... Well, I have no clue.

 

Not in a proper rotation, but I use it as a filler when other abilities are on CD or if my heat is a little bit high I use Thermal Sensor Override -> Unload (Mortal Volley is probably better at this) which is enough for me to drop below acceptable levels of heat.

 

And yes, I use it when I need to stay at range / kite, and yes I think it procs Ion cell.

Edited November 26, 2013 by HBCentaurion

[elidion]

I too am with the sticky grenade crowd, I see the point the naysayers are trying to make, but in my guild my DPS doesn't start until I'm on the boss. I've never had trouble. The way I do it before I'm about to start a boss is I charge up my shoulder cannon so that I get all 4 charges. I'll pop battle focus and throw the grenade, followed by my storm. At that point, my DPS starts hitting the boss. While spamming shoulder cannon (which is not on the global cooldown so you are still free to use other abilities) I will Ion pulse for the debuff on the boss, stock strike, high impact bolt. At this point I usually have Energy blast up (which is also off the global cooldown and can be used with other abilities) which i'll pair with a 2nd ion pulse. By now it isn't uncommon for me to be over 40k threat and the DPS in my Op has only been active for 6 seconds. At this point if pulse engine procs, I'll use pulse cannon, watch for stockstrike to proc off cooldown, use it when it's up, energy blast when it's available, high impact bolt when it's off cooldown. that's all I watch for and use Ion pulse as a filler or Hammer shot if my energy is getting low. It's safe to say that I never have to taunt on a single mob, I only use taunt for tank swaps and multiple mobs/adds. Also there is a lot to be said about playing with a good group of people that knows their class, and knows when to use their threat dump abilities. Also guards on your most "bursty" DPS can help a lot if you're having trouble.

 

Also in regards with how to gear, http://syngex.net/tankstats/index.php will help you.

Edited November 26, 2013 by elidion

[Darth_Dreselus]

Sticky grenade and FA are those kind of abilities that may go unused for almost the whole raid but then there is that one moment when it's the best choice. They are both useful when you have to stay at 10m+ and have spare energy and SG can be used on Operator IX right before his shield falls off.

 

In terms of threat generation and opener they are both inferior to other options.

 

Add groups will also find uses. I tend to pull flashpoints by SG on 1 mob (under silver), FA on another and Storming third if they can't be MVed.

Edited November 26, 2013 by Darth_Dreselus

[MGNMTTRN]

Sticky grenade is strictly worse than Ion Pulse in every way for single-target damage. Because it does less damage, has delayed threat onset, doesn't contribute to any procs, and has a lower crit rate, it has no place in a melee single target Vanguard rotation. Just stop. Stop it. Stop.

 

Edit: Stop.

Edited November 26, 2013 by MGNMTTRN

[TACeMossie]

Sticky grenade is strictly worse than Ion Pulse in every way for single-target damage. Because it does less damage, has delayed threat onset, doesn't contribute to any procs, and has a lower crit rate, it has no place in a melee single target Vanguard rotation. Just stop. Stop it. Stop.

 

Edit: Stop.

 

/throws sticky grenade

[HBCentaurion]

Good discussion!

 

As I've rolled a new PT tank, I have a question about build. This is the build that I'm running with at the moment:

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301GMGrdoroMdRRZrc0zZb.3

(In the Shield Tech tree I've taken Rail Loaders instead of Jet Speed since if I need to **** I can just use Hydrolic Overrides.)

 

Is that a decent build, or do you guys recommend something else?

[TACeMossie]

Good discussion!

 

As I've rolled a new PT tank, I have a question about build. This is the build that I'm running with at the moment:

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301GMGrdoroMdRRZrc0zZb.3

(In the Shield Tech tree I've taken Rail Loaders instead of Jet Speed since if I need to **** I can just use Hydrolic Overrides.)

 

Is that a decent build, or do you guys recommend something else?

 

Well that is one of the 2 popular PT/VG tank builds, with the alternative swapping out Prototype Burn Enhancers and Advanced Tools for Integrated Cardio Package

(http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301GMGrdoroMdRRZbcZbc.3)

As later on, the lack of DCDs for Powertechs and Vanguards means that you want all the health you can get, and the threat generation of VGs/PTs is already incredibly high.

 

Oh and good job not falling into the Prototype Cylinders trap. That skill is pretty much worthless for a tank.

Edited November 29, 2013 by TACeMossie