Proc relics in 2.5 will increase stats by 740, including FR and SA tanking relics.

[Panzerfire]

http://dulfy.net/2013/11/17/swtor-relics-stats-adjusted-for-patch-2-5/

 

Dread Forged Reactive warding = 1360 every 40 seconds.

Fortunate Redoubt = +740 def chance for 6 seconds every 20 seconds and +39 base defence.

Shield Amplification = +740 absorb chance for 6 seconds every 20 seconds with no base stats.

 

With the probable increase of DtPS in NiM DF/DP (which aren't in 2.5 afaik) the proc relics are undoubtly better than the reactive warding, no? Then again assassins get a buff to their reactive warding relics due to higher armor.

My question is if I'm mistaken and have underestimated how good the reactive warding relic is.

Also, this finally makes them better than the pvp ones ^^

Edited November 19, 2013 by Panzerfire

[TACeMossie]

Well looks like ill be getting a mainstat proc then.

I was tossing up whether or not to get one, because the only reason it was good was the buggy 20 second cooldown instead of 40 second cooldown, and I was expecting 2.5 to change the cooldown to 40 seconds. Now I know they are just tripling the boost and halving the duration.

 

(This be for my DPS set. Though why this post didn't just go in the classes forums I dont know)

 

Tank gear, I dunno, unless they fix the awesome glitch with the arkanian reactive warding (it looks like it still absorbs everything) ill stick with that and my def proc

Edited November 19, 2013 by TACeMossie

[leto_cleon]

Tank gear, I dunno, unless they fix the awesome glitch with the arkanian reactive warding (it looks like it still absorbs everything) ill stick with that and my def proc

 

On the combat log it absorbs 740 damage from a single hit, or 739 if the damaged absorbed is split over a few hits. As the lockout seems bugged and procing at 20s on the Arkanian Relic as opposed to 40s on Obroan/Dread Forged, the performance, the Arkanian relic is pretty competitive.

 

The main problem with the RW relic is that other buffs that absorb/reflect/resist damage for 5s or longer can result in the proc being unconsumed.

[KeyboardNinja]

I'm waiting for dipstik's inevitable analysis, but I'm guessing that BiS will be FR and SA over the RW in 2.5. We'll have to see.

[leto_cleon]

I do wonder though for the auto proc relics, what %tage of procs go unconsumed. Edited November 19, 2013 by leto_cleon

[THoK-Zeus]

On the combat log it absorbs 740 damage from a single hit, or 739 if the damaged absorbed is split over a few hits. As the lockout seems bugged and procing at 20s on the Arkanian Relic as opposed to 40s on Obroan/Dread Forged, the performance, the Arkanian relic is pretty competitive.

 

The main problem with the RW relic is that other buffs that absorb/reflect/resist damage for 5s or longer can result in the proc being unconsumed.

 

Well, the proc relic doesnt work when you get no damage at all for 6 sec. The absorb relic just works if you shield an attack within that 6 seconds.

 

I think the rw relic therefore has a higher chance to actually work, because when you shield an attack you will absorb the damage with the rw relic anyway (so the rw relic works definitly under more situations then the absorb relic).

[cxten]

Playing with the syngex calculator, it looks like this makes shield amplification better, in the average mitigation sense, than reactive warding on most HM DF/DP fights as long as the proc is occuring frequently. What's the frequency of shielded attacks (when you're actively tanking)?

 

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By playing with the calculator, I mean: I'm putting in Dread Forged BiS, taking whatever numbers it spits out, adding 740 to absorb, taking the difference in dtps given by the calculator, and multiplying by 12. This gives the average extra damage mitigated in 40 seconds if it procs instantly every 20 seconds. Then you'll have to multiply by a correction factor based on how long it takes to proc.

 

For example, for powertech w/ 4-piece and looking at the average over all fights and just taking the gear as the BiS for the average of all fights with no relic contribution, this gives 140 extra per second when it's on, so 1680 over 2 procs, which is moderately more than 1360. As long as it takes, on average, less than 4.7 seconds to proc after the 20 second lockout, this is better average mitigation (assuming reactive warding procs instantly).

 

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This is close enough, though, that my guess is you'd still want reactive warding. Downtime is better for reactive warding than shield amplification, and less RNG is better as well.

Edited November 19, 2013 by cxten

[SithTyre]

Definitely want to see the new data on these. Edited November 19, 2013 by SithTyre

[leto_cleon]

Well, the proc relic doesnt work when you get no damage at all for 6 sec.

 

To be more precise, other absorb/reflect/resist abilities seem to take priority over reactive warding. So for example if there is a RW proc just before saber reflect its likely to go unconsumed. Another example would be if the damage taken is less than the amount of damage that a sages bubble can absorb for that 6s, the rw proc can also go unconsumed. When there are multiple effects like bubble, blade barrier, etc those also take priority, but it difficult to track if the proc is consumed or not cause the proc might be additive to those. Although I have yet to observe this, but it would also be possible for 6s of good defense rolls to cause the proc not to be consumed.

[THoK-Zeus]

To be more precise, other absorb/reflect/resist abilities seem to take priority over reactive warding. So for example if there is a RW proc just before saber reflect its likely to go unconsumed. Another example would be if the damage taken is less than the amount of damage that a sages bubble can absorb for that 6s, the rw proc can also go unconsumed. When there are multiple effects like bubble, blade barrier, etc those also take priority, but it difficult to track if the proc is consumed or not cause the proc might be additive to those. Although I have yet to observe this, but it would also be possible for 6s of good defense rolls to cause the proc not to be consumed.

 

If there's a saber reflect before RW proc, the other relics will be unconsumed aswell. Same for 6 seconds of defense rolls. Just if you don't get any damage at all during these 6 seconds the relic won't do anything. If have looked through my old combat logs but i don't find any logs where that is Happening (although i admit i did quit searching after a few bosses).

 

For me that's currently not a question as the other relics have a far higher chance to not do anything. The possibility of not getting any m/r damage for 6 seconds or not shielding an attack for 6 seconds is simply way higher.

Edited November 19, 2013 by THoK-Zeus

[dipstik]

im still trying to sort out the debuffs versus buffs versus skill tree stuff.

[dipstik]

heres what i got for DF/DP average (assuming 3 seconds to proc a relic) and 6k dps for 2.5 calcs:

 

	
shadow

Defense	526
Shield	940
Absorb	1216
pre armor squish	0.482105691
total squish	0.28503891
pre heals/absorb dtps	1710.23
post heals dtps	1710.23
damage per HP	3.508292955
spike	0.051336322
weighted	relic	base	diff	=ark	=DF
def proc	0.2790	0.2651	0.2838	0.0061	5290	5200
abs proc	0.2801	0.2663	0.2850	0.0049	6573	6461

jugg:

Defense	1057
Shield	940
Absorb	685
pre armor squish	 0.585751481
total squish	0.307396701
pre heals/absorb dtps	1844
post heals dtps	1711.05
damage per HP	3.253125346
spike	0.04549478
weighted	relic	base	diff	=ark	=DF
def proc	0.3022	0.2904	0.3064	0.0052	6210	6104
abs proc	0.3032	0.2914	0.3074	0.0042	7715	7584

vanguard:
Defense	613
Shield	1236
Absorb	833
pre armor squish	0.568857017
total squish	0.290074849
pre heals/absorb dtps	1740
post heals dtps	1740.45
damage per HP	3.44738609
spike	0.045144393
weighted	relic	base	diff	=ark	=DF
def proc	0.2847	0.2725	0.2890	0.0054	5888	5989
abs proc	0.2858	0.2735	0.2901	0.0043	7316	7442

 

based on the spike values, it looks like spikiness will still be a problem for shadows. the on use relics were equal to the RW around 13k dps. note that these relic cals assume the RW mitigates pre mitigation. since i believe they mitigate after armor/absorb you may be able to multiply the RW value (31 for 40 second DF and 32 for 20 second arkanian) by the damage per HP value (3.5 ish) and that puts the RW relics WAAAAAAY ahead (20k incoming dps for def proc to equal RW). but that damage per HP value takes defense into account, which shouldnt be the case. im at this time not sure how to have a closed form expression for the amount of incoming damage the RW relic equates to.

 

arkanian RW and DF def proc are BiS until they fix the RW proc time for arkanian... then it will be DF RW and DF def proc.

Edited November 19, 2013 by dipstik

[THoK-Zeus]

@dipstik: you calculated with a 3,2k migation Budget for juggernauts and with a 2,6k migation budge for sins and powertechs.

 

Next Thing: You seem to account different operations for the different tank classes, juggernaut Looks like sv (df) data, vanguard looks like tfb (dp) data.

 

Also your base migation in the relic section and total squish are different in the juggernaut section (they should be the same and are the same for the other 2 tank classes).

Edited November 19, 2013 by THoK-Zeus

[dipstik]

lol ty. when editing the numbers to figure out relics, i left one of the relics active. all the numbers are for df/dp average. the base and relic squish values were correct, just the stuff above the relics section got messed up from me leaving a relic on.

 

i edited the post, but even thogh post heals numbers are equal, shadows are still 10% more spikey, just like pre 2.5... so i think spike will still be a problem, which is sad.

Edited November 19, 2013 by dipstik

[THoK-Zeus]

lol ty. when editing the numbers to figure out relics, i left one of the relics active. all the numbers are for df/dp average. the base and relic squish values were correct, just the stuff above the relics section got messed up from me leaving a relic on.

 

i edited the post, but even thogh post heals numbers are equal, shadows are still 10% more spikey, just like pre 2.5... so i think spike will still be a problem, which is sad.

 

Well 10% more spikey what does that mean? For me that's largely something we will find out if it affects or if it doesnt affect us at all in raids.

 

Also just for the numbers, a lot of stuff like cooldowns, 2% healing received (that should defnitly be included in your section tough), 5% healing buff is not included.

Edited November 19, 2013 by THoK-Zeus

[dipstik]

i agree healing buffs should be included, but that would be for some kind of survivability metric with assumed healers. kbn is looking at it like:

 

(1 - (1 - dr)(1 - debuff)) / (1 + heal-increase)

 

but i am more interested in adding it to the post heals/absorb calc as something like:

 

postheals_dtps=dps*total_squish - heals*(1+heal_buff)

 

as for cooldowns.. maybe i would calc post_cd numbers for squish, but i dont think i feel comfortable finding stat weights using cooldowns in my calcs.

Edited November 19, 2013 by dipstik

[KeyboardNinja]

I like to think about the mitigation function as being a balanced equation of the following form (simplified to just look at mr/ke):

 

heals = (1 - dr)(1 - defense)(1 - shield*absorb)*damage

 

If you look at it in this way, then it becomes very clear how to deal with healing buffs and damage debuffs:

 

heals * (1 + heal-buff) = (1 - dr)(1 - defense)(1 - shield*absorb)*(damage*(1 - damage-debuff))

 

Shuffle a bit so that we keep the "heals =" implicit and we get:

 

heals = (1 - dr)(1 - defense)(1 - shield*absorb)(1 - damage-debuff)*damage / (1 + heal-buff)

 

Since we traditionally work in terms of scalars, we can keep this in a "standard" form by commuting the multiplication:

 

(1 - dr)(1 - defense)(1 - shield*absorb)(1 - damage-debuff) / (1 + heal-buff)

[THoK-Zeus]

I actually just meant the 2% healing received being included in the section post heals compared to pre heals .

[dipstik]

it looks like u are using the heals variable to quantify survivability, meaning, the heals required to keep the tank health constant. the lower the value, the better the tank.

 

i could see making room for this calc, just so we are on the same page. i will most likey still have post heals/absorb dtps for ttk/endurance vs. mitigation stuff. speaking of... anyone have numbers for fll 78 endruance values? pre buffs?

[KeyboardNinja]

it looks like u are using the heals variable to quantify survivability, meaning, the heals required to keep the tank health constant. the lower the value, the better the tank.

 

That's the only way I can think of to incorporate healing received buffs into the survivability model. It also provides a slightly more rigorous foundation for dealing with self-heal mechanics.

 

i could see making room for this calc, just so we are on the same page. i will most likey still have post heals/absorb dtps for ttk/endurance vs. mitigation stuff. speaking of... anyone have numbers for fll 78 endruance values? pre buffs?

 

Right around 3480 I think. I don't have my character sheet handy.

[dipstik]

yeah, my way requires an additional input, which is always less desirable than an additional output. especially when said output quantifies the performance of interest.

[leto_cleon]

If have looked through my old combat logs but i don't find any logs where that is Happening (although i admit i did quit searching after a few bosses).

 

I actually only chance upon what I found when investigating the proc rate of the Arkanian RW relic. Here are the two spreadsheets to analyse two of my HM logs

 

HM TFB - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ap394Q8NB51gdGNIa1M1eGxoY2ZhSXhCb0p2dHlyUlE&usp=sharing (a bit messy though)

 

HM SNV - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ap394Q8NB51gdEt5dXc5RjZRRU5UZmpqY2lSOF9hR3c&usp=sharing (cleaner)

 

If there's a saber reflect before RW proc, the other relics will be unconsumed aswell.

 

I actually have a combat log entry where 3 range single target energy damage passed right through saber reflect causing the RW to be consumed for the first hit. It is possible for range energy damage to be defended or shielded against so there are times where the various procs can be consumed/used. Hence my preference to describe the procs in terms of priorities.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=6942229&postcount=72

[Kuciwalker]

If you have saber reflect up, you don't want to dodge or shield the attack.

[leto_cleon]

If you have saber reflect up, you don't want to dodge or shield the attack.

If I recall correctly, there was some testing on the PTS that indicated that good defense stats meant that dodges and shielding can prevent damage from being reflected during saber reflect.

[Marb]

The devs acknowledged how saber reflect was working, but they seemed to be undecided about whether it should work that way. Never heard anything about it again after that .

 

Interesting about saber reflect failing to catch all attacks sometimes, that seems to indicate it is still subject to that arcane 5% failure rubbish, counter to earlier claims that it couldn't fail like shroud.

Edited November 22, 2013 by Marb