Kaggath Tournament - Felonious Empire vs Ascending Empire

[tunewalker]

To keep this debate going I'll throw in some counter arguments on Canino's behalf.

 

Lets look at the Sun Guard first, given that they were one of the most feared military units in the galaxy - to the extent to which the Emperor's Royal Guard had their masks stylized after them to evoke fear - I'd say these guys are very deadly. More deadly than your average stormtrooper. In fact they engaged in several skirmishes with the Echani suggesting battlefield experience. However they are more geared towards close quarters combat.

 

But that is not necessarily a bad thing, considering they are deadly at it. To highlight some of their apparel:

 

 

• Echani Martial arts, these guys are masters of hand-to-hand combat.
  
• Vibroblades with cortosis weave in their gauntlets and spikes in their boots and knee pads.
  
• Heatable forearm gauntlets and fist plates capable of burning flesh
  
• Flamethrowers, dart launchers, force pikes etc.
  

 

Essentially they could probably wipe out any squad, even a SF unit, if they get to close range. Given that they'll probably be engaging in overwhelming surprise attacks and ambushes than open warfare.

 

Now the Clones aren't trained for this kind of combat, they were trained to fight in open warfare, against droids. Sure they'll have a rudimentary ability in hand to hand combat, but at close range tactics they're skills will go out the window.

 

We shouldn't assume they weren't capable of stealth either, they were trained in stealth combat and altogether they're preference for engaging in close combat probably meant this was applied frequently.

 

Now lets look at the Emperor's Royal Guard, who bear quite a lot of simialrities to the Sun Guard. Close combat capabilities, Force pikes, vibroblades etc. etc. they are a little less versatile in terms of equipment (though not necessarily training) but altogether likely just better warriors. Such just consider them elite variants.

 

I essentially agree with all of this I just feel the equipment differences are just to Wide for them to take and early lead, once they steal some of the Clone equipment they will be better off but until then most engagements will not end well for the Sungaurd.

 

No matter how well trained an army of people with swords and pistols is not going to all that well against an army with Machine guns and tanks.

[Beniboybling]

I essentially agree with all of this I just feel the equipment differences are just to Wide for them to take and early lead, once they steal some of the Clone equipment they will be better off but until then most engagements will not end well for the Sungaurd.

 

No matter how well trained an army of people with swords and pistols is not going to all that well against an army with Machine guns and tanks.

Swords and pistols aren't exactly what we are dealing with here. I don't think we should forget that the Sun Guard have the best equipment out their for doing what they do. They aren't going to be nabbing stuff from the enemy, they just need to be in the position to apply their abilities. Machine guns and tanks are not their specialty.

 

EDIT: Though remember the FE do have Ground Armored Tanks and IG-227 Hailfire-class droid tanks from the IGBC

Edited December 11, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Aurbere]

*snip*

 

To add to this:

 

The cloners of Kamino were commissioned with creating the Old Republic's vast clone army, properly equipped with the most advanced military gear available.

[Wolfninjajedi]

To keep this debate going I'll throw in some counter arguments on Canino's behalf.

 

Lets look at the Sun Guard first, given that they were one of the most feared military units in the galaxy - to the extent to which the Emperor's Royal Guard had their masks stylized after them to evoke fear - I'd say these guys are very deadly. More deadly than your average stormtrooper. In fact they engaged in several skirmishes with the Echani suggesting battlefield experience. However they are more geared towards close quarters combat.

 

But that is not necessarily a bad thing, considering they are deadly at it. To highlight some of their apparel:

 

 

• Echani Martial arts, these guys are masters of hand-to-hand combat.
  
• Vibroblades with cortosis weave in their gauntlets and spikes in their boots and knee pads.
  
• Heatable forearm gauntlets and fist plates capable of burning flesh
  
• Flamethrowers, dart launchers, force pikes etc.
  

 

Essentially they could probably wipe out any squad, even a SF unit, if they get to close range. Given that they'll probably be engaging in overwhelming surprise attacks and ambushes than open warfare.

 

Now the Clones aren't trained for this kind of combat, they were trained to fight in open warfare, against droids. Sure they'll have a rudimentary ability in hand to hand combat, but at close range tactics they're skills will go out the window.

 

We shouldn't assume they weren't capable of stealth either, they were trained in stealth combat and altogether they're preference for engaging in close combat probably meant this was applied frequently.

 

Now lets look at the Emperor's Royal Guard, who bear quite a lot of simialrities to the Sun Guard. Close combat capabilities, Force pikes, vibroblades etc. etc. they are a little less versatile in terms of equipment (though not necessarily training) but altogether likely just better warriors. Such just consider them elite variants.

 

The EG do have their Stormtrooper training to fall back on(remember the EG are selected from top Stormtrooper squads), they are quite well diverse and good in ranged combat too.

[tunewalker]

Swords and pistols aren't exactly what we are dealing with here. I don't think we should forget that the Sun Guard have the best equipment out their for doing what they do. They aren't going to be nabbing stuff from the enemy, they just need to be in the position to apply their abilities. Machine guns and tanks are not their specialty.

 

Best equipment? Like what exactly, I don't see anything in their Arsenal capable of piercing the armor of those tanks. If the clones get them in the open I almost feel its a turkey shoot with the equipment disparity. Again I acknowledge the Sungaurds skills as ground soldiers and hit and run specialists, but with out heavy equipment they wont do all that great against their enemies Heavy equipment. The Sungaurd were not meant to fight that kind of War either, and I feel the clones (thanks to their equipment) can adapt to the Sungaurds type of warfare better then the sungaurds can adapt to the clones with out the extra equipment.

 

 

Edit: the edit will allow them to partially fill one of its holes but I do not believe it will be enough. The combatants are skilled on both sides I give that the SG are more skilled but the clones superior equipment turns it in their favor I feel. Just personal opinion on the matter.

Edited December 11, 2013 by tunewalker

[Beniboybling]

Best equipment? Like what exactly, I don't see anything in their Arsenal capable of piercing the armor of those tanks. If the clones get them in the open I almost feel its a turkey shoot with the equipment disparity. Again I acknowledge the Sungaurds skills as ground soldiers and hit and run specialists, but with out heavy equipment they wont do all that great against their enemies Heavy equipment. The Sungaurd were not meant to fight that kind of War either, and I feel the clones (thanks to their equipment) can adapt to the Sungaurds type of warfare better then the sungaurds can adapt to the clones with out the extra equipment.

Best equipment for what they do i.e. stealth and close combat.

 

So really all that matters is can the AE prevent them from doing what they do. Not whether they have the equipment to do it, because they do, and therefore stealing the equipment of the enemy just isn't going to be worth it. Its not their specialty. If they wanted to roll in in tanks and shoot em up with machine guns they would have joined the army.

 

I'm not necessarily saying this makes them better, but they are not underequipped. That said, I do think we should consider the equipment that the Underworld provides if they needed things likes rocket launchers etc.

 

Query though, how to you feel the Clones will be able to adapt to close quarters combat?

[Aurbere]

I'm just going to pull these quotes over from my other match:

 

An arsenal of built-in weapons gives the ultra battle droid its bite. Two smaller arms have retractable rapid-fire blaster cannons in their forearms. The right primary arm is equipped with a tight-spray flamethrower, while the left sports a wide-spray plasma cannon. Built into the left shoulder is a rocket launcher, armed with semi-sentient brilliant missles that can track their targets.

 

Cortosis battle droids were a frightening variant on Baktoid Combat Automata's super battle droids-made even more dangerous thanks to their lightsaber resistant armor.

 

Wat Tambor convinced Count Dooku to mount a raid on Coruscant using the new droids. Ten months after the start of the Clone Wars-and more than two years before General Grievous would do the same-Dooku invaded Coruscant with an army of cortosis droids and several of his dark side minions. The droids laid waste to the city's underlevels and broke into the Jedi Temple, nearly allowing Dooku to destroy the Jedi Archives.

 

Eventually, the Separatists were forced to withdraw, but the cortosis droids had performed extremely well against Jedi opponents. So well, in fact, that Darth Sidious considered the droids a destabilizing factor in the war that he was carefully orchestrating.

 

A droideka has two double-barreled blaster cannons where its arms should be, and both can spit out rapid-fire crimson energy powerful enough to chew enemies to pieces. The cannons can also fire high-intensity blasts, at a slower rate, that are capable of exploding light vehicles. Droidekas possess their own deflector shields, making the droid virtually immune to small-arms fire. The shields, hazy blue and sherical, are polarized so that the droideka's own bolts penetrate outward while return fire splashes uselessly against the shield's periphery.

 

I'll grab some more later.

[tunewalker]

Best equipment for what they do i.e. stealth and close combat.

 

So really all that matters is can the AE prevent them from doing what they do. Not whether they have the equipment to do it, because they do, and therefore stealing the equipment of the enemy just isn't going to be worth it. Its not their specialty. If they wanted to roll in in tanks and shoot em up with machine guns they would have joined the army.

 

I'm not necessarily saying this makes them better, but they are not underequipped. That said, I do think we should consider the equipment that the Underworld provides if they needed things likes rocket launchers etc.

 

Query though, how to you feel the Clones will be able to adapt to close quarters combat?

 

Again considering their Physical bodies and basic close combat training to start, I think they will be able to adapt slightly better then the SG will against open warfare. The clones have the equipment for close combat and they have the physical muscle for it so while they may not be as skilled and they may lose more often then win, they do have an answer for it, and that's my point with out the underworld and suppliers backing up the SG and the SG using a few extra things they rarely used (I say rarely because I am sure they are not dumb and would not go after an objective with out the proper equipment) they would have no answer for the clones equipment.

 

furthermore Vader is the one issueing the commands and he is a very Direct leader, cunning yes, but Direct I don't know how much hit and Fade is his preference while his enemies (mothma and Garm mostly) fought entire wars based on it against a superior opponent (vader and the emperor) and were able to win some key Victories, and I think the word that is important here is Key Victories, as I have stated everything else hinges on the Moral of the universe, the underworld, the suppliers everything hinges on Key victories and right now I personally feel the AE has the leadership/ trained forces/ equipment combination to get just that "Key Victories"

[Selenial]

Best equipment for what they do i.e. stealth and close combat.

 

So really all that matters is can the AE prevent them from doing what they do. Not whether they have the equipment to do it, because they do, and therefore stealing the equipment of the enemy just isn't going to be worth it. Its not their specialty. If they wanted to roll in in tanks and shoot em up with machine guns they would have joined the army.

 

I'm not necessarily saying this makes them better, but they are not underequipped. That said, I do think we should consider the equipment that the Underworld provides if they needed things likes rocket launchers etc.

 

Query though, how to you feel the Clones will be able to adapt to close quarters combat?

 

Clones have Melee training, from what I've seen....

 

The Sun Guard getting into Melee range is going to be hard, any times they're infiltrating palaces or strongholds, there will be IK's if it's of importance, and of course an Imperial Knight would be worth 100 sun guard (as long as they didnt all appear at once )

 

Also, the Felonious Empire don't exactly have much stealth technology, so it's going to be hard to get past Intelligence. I mean, they've got stealth frigates, but you yourself have theorized they could barely hold 20 troopers because they dont have shields, and thus have incredibly thick armor.....

[Beniboybling]

Again considering their Physical bodies and basic close combat training to start, I think they will be able to adapt slightly better then the SG will against open warfare. The clones have the equipment for close combat and they have the physical muscle for it so while they may not be as skilled and they may lose more often then win, they do have an answer for it, and that's my point with out the underworld and suppliers backing up the SG and the SG using a few extra things they rarely used (I say rarely because I am sure they are not dumb and would not go after an objective with out the proper equipment) they would have no answer for the clones equipment.

 

furthermore Vader is the one issueing the commands and he is a very Direct leader, cunning yes, but Direct I don't know how much hit and Fade is his preference while his enemies (mothma and Garm mostly) fought entire wars based on it against a superior opponent (vader and the emperor) and were able to win some key Victories, and I think the word that is important here is Key Victories, as I have stated everything else hinges on the Moral of the universe, the underworld, the suppliers everything hinges on Key victories and right now I personally feel the AE has the leadership/ trained forces/ equipment combination to get just that "Key Victories"

Well I feel the FE will approach this Kaggath by way the strike teams, while the AE are distracted fighting open war in the FE can use its underworld contacts to smuggle forces onto AE worlds and strike right at the heart. They'll have all the necessary equipment at their disposal and will be away from the open battlefield where things like tanks and heavy weaponry can't be used, especially on friendly soil.

 

Most likely targets include the Balmorran Arms Factory, the Coruscant Defense Grid and Senate District, various Corellian Shipyards and govt. buildings etc. etc. and these sort of areas, being in civilian, urban etc. will play against the AE and work in the advantage of the FE. And in such surroundings, head on tactics can be applied.

 

In terms of the open battlefield, the FE homeworlds are urban territory as well. I'm thinking ambushes in the streets getting into close range fast where they likewise can't apply heavy weaponry and tanks etc.

 

So not necessarily hit and fade, but more hitting close, in every respect.

Edited December 11, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

Clones have Melee training, from what I've seen....

 

The Sun Guard getting into Melee range is going to be hard, any times they're infiltrating palaces or strongholds, there will be IK's if it's of importance, and of course an Imperial Knight would be worth 100 sun guard (as long as they didnt all appear at once )

 

Also, the Felonious Empire don't exactly have much stealth technology, so it's going to be hard to get past Intelligence. I mean, they've got stealth frigates, but you yourself have theorized they could barely hold 20 troopers because they dont have shields, and thus have incredibly thick armor.....

Stealth isn't really necessary when we are talking about Core Worlds like Coruscant, Coreillia, Kuat etc. smuggling onto cargo ships and civilian vessels would suffice.

 

Now yes Imperial Knights, but remember close combat is the FE's specialty here. And Imperial Guardsmen are designed to take down Jedi, I think against overwhelming odds they would fall. Remember there are only two dozen.

[tunewalker]

Well I feel the FE will approach this Kaggath by way the strike teams, while the AE are distracted fighting open war in the FE can use its underworld contacts to smuggle forces onto AE worlds and strike right at the heart. They'll have all the necessary equipment at their disposal and will be away from the open battlefield where things like tanks and heavy weaponry can't be effected, especially on friendly soil.

 

Most likely targets include the Balmorran Arms Factory, the Coruscant Defense Grid and Senate District, various Corellian Shipyards and govt. buildings etc. etc. and these sort of areas, being in civilian, urban etc. will play against the AE and work in the advantage of the FE. And in such surroundings, head on tactics can be applied.

 

In terms of the open battlefield, the FE homeworlds are urban territory as well. I'm thinking ambushes in the streets getting into close range fast where they likewise can't apply heavy weaponry and tanks etc.

 

So not necessarily hit and fade, but more hitting close, in every respect.

 

Distracted with what exactly, I figured that would be what the SG were doing after all they are the only force in the FE numerous enough to distract the clones, unfortunately using them as such would likely not end well for them as any distraction is easily blown away with the AE superior fire power. The I don't think the FE have the proper set up for a proper distraction. They have the equipment and skills for a Strike team in spades, but they are missing their distraction part.

[StarSquirrel]

Well I feel the FE will approach this Kaggath by way the strike teams, while the AE are distracted fighting open war in the FE can use its underworld contacts to smuggle forces onto AE worlds and strike right at the heart. They'll have all the necessary equipment at their disposal and will be away from the open battlefield where things like tanks and heavy weaponry can't be effected, especially on friendly soil.

 

I'd have to disagree on some points here, the clones armor support isn't useless unless they're forced to literally fight inside buildings and even then (modern urban warfare still utilizes armor, as it does in SW as well example: Corellia)... To add to that the FE has no solid counter to said armor and hand-to-hand combat will be totally ineffective if armor is gunning down your troops from even just meters away. There is a very good reason modern soldiers breach buildings with guns still instead of knives or swords. Range is just better and the clones are better at it imo. So the odds will be slightly better for the SG but not even close to ideal. Combined with Droidekas leading charges and the SG is at severe disadvantage.

 

I will agree though, that on FE worlds armor can be severely reduced due to supply lines, mines, traps, choke points, ect... But in AE or neutral ground the AE armor will beat the FE 9 times out of 10.

Edited December 11, 2013 by StarSquirrel

[Aurbere]

Well I feel the FE will approach this Kaggath by way the strike teams, while the AE are distracted fighting open war in the FE can use its underworld contacts to smuggle forces onto AE worlds and strike right at the heart. They'll have all the necessary equipment at their disposal and will be away from the open battlefield where things like tanks and heavy weaponry can't be effected, especially on friendly soil.

 

Remember that the AE can get the underworld on its side as well. And Mon Mothma (probably Garm, too) most likely knows how to deal with these tactics as she was the leader of the Rebel Alliance.

 

Most likely targets include the Balmorran Arms Factory, the Coruscant Defense Grid and Senate District, various Corellian Shipyards and govt. buildings etc. etc. and these sort of areas, being in civilian, urban etc. will play against the AE and work in the advantage of the FE. And in such surroundings, head on tactics can be applied.

 

Because these areas won't have security, and no one will be aware that one of the enemy's leaders is a 'crime boss.' I'm sure if the AE is aware that Aruk is apart of the enemy command chain that they would do what they can to defend against underworld strikes.

 

In terms of the open battlefield, the FE homeworlds are urban territory as well. I'm thinking ambushes in the streets getting into close range fast where they likewise can't apply heavy weaponry and tanks etc.

 

So not necessarily hit and fade, but more hitting close, in every respect.

 

Obi-Wan Kenobi, Garm Bel Iblis, and the 212th have a great deal of experience fighting urban warfare.

[Beniboybling]

Distracted with what exactly, I figured that would be what the SG were doing after all they are the only force in the FE numerous enough to distract the clones, unfortunately using them as such would likely not end well for them as any distraction is easily blown away with the AE superior fire power. The I don't think the FE have the proper set up for a proper distraction. They have the equipment and skills for a Strike team in spades, but they are missing their distraction part.

Distracted by the war of course, not something you can just blow away. The AE's attention is going to be on the various naval engagements occurring around FE territory. At which point the FE would likely be deploying strike teams.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Stealth isn't really necessary when we are talking about Core Worlds like Coruscant, Coreillia, Kuat etc. smuggling onto cargo ships and civilian vessels would suffice.

 

Now yes Imperial Knights, but remember close combat is the FE's specialty here. And Imperial Guardsmen are designed to take down Jedi, I think against overwhelming odds they would fall. Remember there are only two dozen.

 

Imperial Royal Guards aren't trained to take down Jedi, they are just trained to be the best of the best....from already beingthe best of the best, so they are the best of the best of the best of the best. Now that training COULD help them against a Jedi...but with The Force that is another issue.

Edited December 11, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Beniboybling]

I'd have to disagree on some points here, the clones armor support isn't useless unless they're forced to literally fight inside buildings and even then (modern urban warfare still utilizes armor, as it does in SW as well example: Corellia)... To add to that the FE has no solid counter to said armor and hand-to-hand combat will be totally ineffective if armor is gunning down your troops from even just meters away. There is a very good reason modern soldiers breach buildings with guns still instead of knives or swords. Range is just better and the clones are better at it imo. So the odds will be slightly better for the SG but not even close to ideal. Combined with Droidekas leading charges and the SG is at severe disadvantage.

 

I will agree though, that on FE worlds armor can be severely reduced due to supply lines, mines, traps, choke points, ect... But in AE or neutral ground the AE armor will beat the FE 9 times out of 10.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say "armor" - do you mean heavy vehicles and weapons etc?

 

And I am talking about literally inside buildings, buildings like the Balmorran Arms Factory, the Coreillian shipyards and govt. HQs, the massive building that is Coruscant city etc. And the Sun Guard supposedly had experience in this field.

 

Though I don't think we should assume that the Sun Guard are close-combat only, this image for example clearly depicts a Sun Guard holding a ranged weapon. And as you said guns are often better than knives.

 

Essentially being intelligent, adaptable units I suspect they will use whatever the situation demands. But regardless I agree that the AE has them pinned down in terms of heavy weaponry, but there are ways to avoid this.

 

In fact urban warfare is there specialty, so I assume they knew how to win in this field.

[Beniboybling]

Imperial Royal Guards aren't trained to take down Jedi, they are just trained to be the best of the best....from the best of the best. Now that training COULD help them against a Jedi...but with The Force that is another issue.

They weren't? OK my bad. What about the Sovereign Protectors?

[Wolfninjajedi]

They weren't? OK my bad. What about the Sovereign Protectors?

 

They just have rudimentary skill in The Force, nothing big. Of course the more exceptional of them were trained to be Dark Jedi.

[Beniboybling]

Remember that the AE can get the underworld on its side as well. And Mon Mothma (probably Garm, too) most likely knows how to deal with these tactics as she was the leader of the Rebel Alliance.

 

Because these areas won't have security, and no one will be aware that one of the enemy's leaders is a 'crime boss.' I'm sure if the AE is aware that Aruk is apart of the enemy command chain that they would do what they can to defend against underworld strikes.

 

Obi-Wan Kenobi, Garm Bel Iblis, and the 212th have a great deal of experience fighting urban warfare.

1. How's that exactly? I don't remember Mothma having underworld connections, and don't they have like morals?

 

2. Well these guys are armed killers you know, the idea is that the engage the "security" in areas where they can't bring their heavy weapons etc. to bear, and deal out lots of death. Slashy stabby shooty. And the underworld will probably act as more of a distraction, causing trouble in the cities and forcing the AE to divert troops.

 

3. Indeed, but if these folks are diverted by the space war...

Edited December 11, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Aurbere]

1. How's that exactly? I don't remember Mothma having underworld connections, and don't they have like morals?

 

2. Well these guys are armed killers you know, the idea is that the engage the "security" in areas where they can't bring their heavy weapons etc. to bear, and deal out lots of death. Slashy stabby shooty. And the underworld will probably act as more of a distraction, causing trouble in the cities and forcing the AE to divert troops.

 

3. Indeed, but if these folks are diverted by the space war...

 

1. The Rebel Alliance?

 

2. Point, I suppose. It's still a lot harder than you think.

 

3. Plo Koon? The superior number of tacticians gives the AE more versatility in this area.

[Canino]

Just a quick post, but I think the key to FE victory is to do as many things as possible simultaneously. That means that simultaneously the FE will be using the underworld to distract and gain intelligence, the Corellia plan will be in action, any IGBC matters, the attempted defection of the Techno Union, and more. All at the same time. This spreads the AE thin, and allows more opportunity for the FE to strike. Such as Balmorra and the Sacking of Couscant,

 

Oh, and P.S...

 

The visor of the Sun Guard helmet could image thermal data, as well as infrared and ultraviolet wavelengths. A macrobinocular scope in the helmet aided in surveillance and sniping.

 

They can shoot. And I wonder what happens when a flamethrower hits a clone? And don't forget I can train Riot Guards through Yinchorr!!!

Edited December 12, 2013 by Canino

[tunewalker]

Distracted by the war of course, not something you can just blow away. The AE's attention is going to be on the various naval engagements occurring around FE territory. At which point the FE would likely be deploying strike teams.

 

What ground troop is going to be distracting them, What is going to be keeping the clone troops busy this has nothing to do with space combat. For a war you need soldiers if you are intending to distract the soldiers of the AE for strike teams you need soldiers, the FE doesn't have any they have specialists but no Soldiers capable of an effective Open War distraction, since the clones can blow them away so easily.

[Wolfninjajedi]

What ground troop is going to be distracting them, What is going to be keeping the clone troops busy this has nothing to do with space combat. For a war you need soldiers if you are intending to distract the soldiers of the AE for strike teams you need soldiers, the FE doesn't have any they have specialists but no Soldiers capable of an effective Open War distraction, since the clones can blow them away so easily.

 

Actually the FE do have soldiers, the Imperial Guards were rotated into Stormtrooper ranks to keep them in top fighting condition.

[tunewalker]

Actually the FE do have soldiers, the Imperial Guards were rotated into Stormtrooper ranks to keep them in top fighting condition.

 

100 vs 10,000 I don't care how good 100 is not acting as a sufficient distraction for 10,000, the SG is the only body Large enough to fight the clones and they don't have the equipment to fight the war they need to, to allow for a Strike team.

Edited December 12, 2013 by tunewalker