So where are all these Assassins dominating the leader boards?

[Racter]

You're not understanding me right. I'm saying that the underlaying idea is the same.

Not that Assassin's are as hard as a Rogue (which was my main class for 6 years mind you).

 

Oh, gotcha. Agree with that. Also lol @ people trying to say sins are bads when presented with evidence that they aren't. Also mega lol @ people saying scrapper is easier than Deception. I'm not talking about 300 DPS *******s ganking undergeared people in regs. I'm talking about pulling 1500+ DPS in regs and 1k+ in arenas. I can do that on my sin in partisan gear in deception and have come pretty close in 19/27 (don't play it enough to care 2ez). It's not a smash marauder, it's not meant to be a smash marauder and will never be a smash marauder. Play RMP swtor and you'll see what I'm talking about. Line up your burst with your other DPS, CC and hard swap. Run with a Carnage mara or pyro pt, might work with lightning/arsenal/MM too but haven't seen anyone try it. Stop using discharge and shock on cd and save them both for a maul proc. If you just randomly use your abilities you're not going to get anywhere on a sin. More so than any other spec in this game other than maybe carnage deception is a really spikey burst class. Play it like that and you will succeed with it.

[ShadowMudkip]

This thread kept me entertained for awhile.

 

I like to believe I play my shadow fairly well and I recently rolled a marauder as it was one of the classes I didn't have. It's funny how easy it is to get the same results with half the effort.

 

But that's what I love about sins/shadows, a player can't just "roll" a sin and expect to put up numbers like a marauder. It's easy to spot the new sins and the ones that have been around.

 

With the right players/team they work fine in arenas.

 

Agreed, sins have a lower skill cap, but the best sins you can tell from the bad ones, but i guess that true with any class

[Knightlyyy]

 

Sins are not good in competitive matches if there is a ranged DPS class on the opposing team as they are too susceptible to ranged damage, and their own damage is too high profile with no sustain whatsoever. They do not make pressure for more than a few seconds, and even then a good team can mitigate that opener very well through peel taunts or stuns.

 

Assassins and other stealth DPS are not ok because they do not provide any real damage other than low sustain. Its not even like combat spec, where the damage comes with huge utility with great group buffs, execute, roots, trauma debuff.... (Also, the damage itself is much higher in the sustain phase). Arenas are ruled by cleave or dot cleave teams. If you are losing to single target pressure comps at this point if you have an operative healer and a PT tank, its because you are not playing correctly.

 

Aye aye, captain.

 

Especially the utility disparity that OBVIOUSLY exists between Marauder and Deception Assassin.

 

Assassin

 

- group buffs? No.

- roots? No.

- insta AoE mezz? No.

- Trauma Debuff? No.

- Accuracy Debuff? No.

 

But hey Assassins have Stealth has been a great utility in war zones so it is equally as valuable in Arenas right? Lul.

But hey Assassins have Low Slash, that should be enough to get the majority of the game's population to SCREAM Assassin's utility is outrageously high, right? Lul.

 

Make the Pull ability baseline for the Shadow/Sin class.

Edited November 19, 2013 by Knightlyyy

[ConCube]

Aye aye, captain.

 

Especially the utility disparity that OBVIOUSLY exists between Marauder and Deception Assassin.

 

Assassin

 

- group buffs? No.

- roots? No.

- insta AoE mezz? No.

- Trauma Debuff? No.

- Accuracy Debuff? No.

 

But hey Assassins have Stealth has been a great utility in war zones so it is equally as valuable in Arenas right? Lul.

But hey Assassins have Low Slash, that should be enough to get the majority of the game's population to SCREAM Assassin's utility is outrageously high, right? Lul.

 

Make the Pull ability baseline for the Shadow/Sin class.

 

Won't ever happen... Useless for arenas and too OP in regs ...

That's what I think.

[Knightlyyy]

Won't ever happen... Useless for arenas and too OP in regs ...

That's what I think.

 

My mind explodes with creative, game changing things that would happen if I had a Pull on a 1-minute CD whilst playing DPS Sin/Shadow.

 

I'll articulate some of them when I get back from the gym.

[Sideblaze]

I can't help but laugh at assassins who are under the delusion they are underpowered.

[Knightlyyy]

I can't help but laugh at assassins who are under the delusion they are underpowered.

 

I can't help but laugh at people who are under the delusions that assassins are overpowered.

 

See what I did there? Never said Sins/Shadows were underpowered.

[Sideblaze]

I can't help but laugh at people who are under the delusions that assassins are overpowered.

 

See what I did there? Never said Sins/Shadows were underpowered.

 

Oh look, another moron. Okay.

 

1: Wasn't talking to you, Unless you freely admit that you find sins underpowered.

 

2: Never said you did.

 

3: Deception actually is overpowered =in PVP=, PVE it's balanced. Madness is underpowered, save for hybrids that use death field with deception.

Edited November 19, 2013 by Sideblaze

[Arkerus]

Aye aye, captain.

 

Especially the utility disparity that OBVIOUSLY exists between Marauder and Deception Assassin.

 

Assassin

 

- group buffs? No.

- roots? No.

- insta AoE mezz? No.

- Trauma Debuff? No.

- Accuracy Debuff? No.

 

But hey Assassins have Stealth has been a great utility in war zones so it is equally as valuable in Arenas right? Lul.

But hey Assassins have Low Slash, that should be enough to get the majority of the game's population to SCREAM Assassin's utility is outrageously high, right? Lul.

 

Make the Pull ability baseline for the Shadow/Sin class.

 

Cherry picking abilities and then saying you aren't as good as another isn't a valid argument. I could take any class and make a list of things they don't have compared to other classes. Its like saying a potato isn't a carrot. Yeah, we know its not. Different classes are different.

[Sideblaze]

Cherry picking abilities and then saying you aren't as good as another isn't a valid argument. I could take any class and make a list of things they don't have compared to other classes. Its like saying a potato isn't a carrot. Yeah, we know its not. Different classes are different.

 

You know it's sad when a class has the best burst in the game and still thinks they deserve more.

[Arkerus]

You know it's sad when a class has the best burst in the game and still thinks they deserve more.

 

Generally speaking the numbers say assassins are just fine. I have never bought into any argument that they need buffs when coming out of stealth they can absolutely hammer a player, especially if abilities are off cooldown.

 

I am pretty sure we have all been there. Until assassins hit commando rep numbers the argument doesn't hold up.

[JP_Legatus]

Oh look, another moron. Okay.

 

1: Wasn't talking to you, Unless you freely admit that you find sins underpowered.

 

2: Never said you did.

 

3: Deception actually is overpowered =in PVP=, PVE it's balanced. Madness is underpowered, save for hybrids that use death field with deception.

 

Clarify whether you are talking about rated play or regs please.

Also in pve, deception sins are the lowest sustained dps currently iirc out of all the classes that aren't madness assassin.

 

And again, nobody is asking for buffs to assassin burst which is already really good. They're asking for sustained dps increases or QOL increases.

Edited November 20, 2013 by JP_Legatus

[Tankqull]

My mind explodes with creative, game changing things that would happen if I had a Pull on a 1-minute CD whilst playing DPS Sin/Shadow.

 

I'll articulate some of them when I get back from the gym.

 

they are already kings of singeltarget cc another cc wont hopefully ever happen.

what i would like to see is a change of the taunt when not used in tank stance (all tank classes) to singeltarget inc-heal debuff and an pbae outgoing healdebuff (wich do not stack neither with each other nor other heal debuffs of maro/sent or slinger/sniper)

[JP_Legatus]

Generally speaking the numbers say assassins are just fine. I have never bought into any argument that they need buffs when coming out of stealth they can absolutely hammer a player, especially if abilities are off cooldown.

 

I am pretty sure we have all been there. Until assassins hit commando rep numbers the argument doesn't hold up.

 

What numbers are you talking about that say assassins are just fine? If you're saying that operative, mara, and PT ALL should get nerfs and leave sins alone, then fine. But currently there are more SORCERERS in grouped ranked top 100 than sins. Are you saying sorcs are fine as well?

 

I'm not even going to mention the sustained dps numbers because it's a well documented fact that deception has the lowest sustained dps out of all the non-madness specs.

[JP_Legatus]

they are already kings of singeltarget cc another cc wont hopefully ever happen.

what i would like to see is a change of the taunt when not used in tank stance (all tank classes) to singeltarget inc-heal debuff and an pbae outgoing healdebuff (wich do not stack neither with each other nor other heal debuffs of maro/sent or slinger/sniper)

 

Jugg tanks have a push, an AOE MEZZ, and TWO FOUR SECOND HARD STUNS. Operatives have the exact same number of cc abilities minus low slash, which is a 4s single target melee mezz. Which is EASILY made up for by having an INSTANT AOE 8S MEZZ.

 

Getting tired of seeing this cc line over and over that is factually false. Is this guy right to ask for pull as a baseline ability? Not even close in my opinion, but that doesn't make your comments accurate.

Edited November 20, 2013 by JP_Legatus

[Sideblaze]

Clarify whether you are talking about rated play or regs please.

Also in pve, deception sins are the lowest sustained dps currently iirc out of all the classes that aren't madness assassin.

 

And again, nobody is asking for buffs to assassin burst which is already really good. They're asking for sustained dps increases or QOL increases.

 

1: deception/infiltration is easily the best burst in the game, Easily on the same level as launch-day operatives. The sustained damage suffers a -little- in PVE, but in PVP it's too broken to buff. Don't kid yourself.

 

2:If you want sustained damage buffs, ask them to buff the MADNESS tree. Deception is a burst tree, Don't make it anything more. If you want to ask for a buff, ask for it on the proper spec.

[Evolixe]

Clarify whether you are talking about rated play or regs please.

Also in pve, deception sins are the lowest sustained dps currently iirc out of all the classes that aren't madness assassin.

 

And again, nobody is asking for buffs to assassin burst which is already really good. They're asking for sustained dps increases or QOL increases.

 

This isn't PvE. See, you just don't understand how to play your Assassin when you keep holding to that argument.

 

If you just randomly use your abilities you're not going to get anywhere on a sin. More so than any other spec in this game other than maybe carnage deception is a really spikey burst class. Play it like that and you will succeed with it.

 

That. That is exactly it. Burst is a completely different league than sustained damage. But it isn't suprerior or inferior in any way. It's different. You have to play smart in order to kill things with burst.

 

With sustained you just pound someone untill the healer can't take it anymore.. super derp, super easy. Assassins aren't like that.

[Abbrachmann]

This isn't PvE. See, you just don't understand how to play your Assassin when you keep holding to that argument.

 

 

 

That. That is exactly it. Burst is a completely different league than sustained damage. But it isn't suprerior or inferior in any way. It's different. You have to play smart in order to kill things with burst.

 

With sustained you just pound someone untill the healer can't take it anymore.. super derp, super easy. Assassins aren't like that.

 

Looking at the screenshots you have linked-

 

The first, is a completely average damage game on any of the rated toons I play on. The average game between MvP, DP and Breakfast has each DPS doing anywhere from 12XX-15XX per round. The Second, was an incredibly short game where you did all your burst on two openers, prolly double supah crit deathfield openers. Its not even that high, (several dozen 2k+ from maras/snipers out there over long games).

 

In a group match, burst is easier to stop than raw damage. Guard, taunts, peels, DCD's etc. Its not as effective in this game as it was in WoW because of the guard mechanic of tanks here.

 

Therefore, a class that has a spec that only does good damage with all burst stored up (with very little sustain) is bad. Its great if you're playing solo queue, or against a team of people who aren't terribly good at mitigating damage. The only reason carnage is good as is, is because 1) it has utility and 2) it has actual sustain damage and its burst is even higher

Edited November 20, 2013 by Abbrachmann

[Evolixe]

Looking at the screenshots you have linked-

 

The first, is a completely average damage game on any of the rated toons I play on. The average game between MvP, DP and Breakfast has each DPS doing anywhere from 12XX-15XX per round. The Second, was an incredibly short game where you did all your burst on two openers, prolly double supah crit deathfield openers. Its not even that high, (several dozen 2k+ from maras/snipers out there over long games).

 

In a group match, burst is easier to stop than raw damage. Guard, taunts, peels, DCD's etc. Its not as effective in this game as it was in WoW because of the guard mechanic of tanks here.

 

Therefore, a class that has a spec that only does good damage with all burst stored up (with very little sustain) is bad. Its great if you're playing solo queue, or against a team of people who aren't terribly good at mitigating damage. The only reason carnage is good as is, is because 1) it has utility and 2) it has actual sustain damage and its burst is even higher

 

That's great, any comment on my actual post?

[Abbrachmann]

That's great, any comment on my actual post?

 

Was pretty clear, your entire basis on the post was wrong.

 

Burst < DoT Sustain in arena.

 

Because of guard.

 

When guard is changed, possibly it will be better but its doubtful they will ever change it.

Edited November 20, 2013 by Abbrachmann

[Evolixe]

Was pretty clear, your entire basis on the post was wrong.

 

Burst < DoT Sustain in arena.

 

Because of guard.

 

When guard is changed, possibly it will be better but its doubtful they will ever change it.

 

You can play around guard. Your argument is void.

Edited November 20, 2013 by Evolixe

[Abbrachmann]

You can play around guard. Your argument is void.

 

When you are playing against double melee sure.

 

I know you guys on ToFN haven't seen it yet, but the best teams run either double ranged or single ranged now a days.

AKA big peels over the alpha burst classes (Sin, Marauder.)

your argument is invalid, and you have been relegated to the trashbin. Your move.

[Evolixe]

When you are playing against double melee sure.

 

I know you guys on ToFN haven't seen it yet, but the best teams run either double ranged or single ranged now a days.

AKA big peels over the alpha burst classes (Sin, Marauder.)

your argument is invalid, and you have been relegated to the trashbin. Your move.

 

I have no problems keeping up with ranged classes wherever they move. Your argument is still void.

[Abbrachmann]

I have no problems keeping up with ranged classes wherever they move. Your argument is still void.

 

Must suck to be playing against Whasp. Best sniper world....

Yeah.

You are not playing against good ranged if they're not peeling each other. Not that any team on ToFN runs double ranged either.

[Evolixe]

Must suck to be playing against Whasp. Best sniper world....

Yeah.

You are not playing against good ranged if they're not peeling each other. Not that any team on ToFN runs double ranged either.

 

I don't keep running after a target that takes longer to reach than he's worth. Ill make you come to me.