DPS Commando PvP theory crafting

[xPrTx]

That's impossible, simply impossible for Hammer Shot to deal more damage than Charged Bolts. Hammer Shot's damage is the same as your weapon damage, while Charged Bolts scales better than 1:1 on weapon damage, includes ranged bonus damage, and has a base damage. There is no possible way for Hammer Shot to deal the same damage as Charged Bolts.

 

Hammer shot normally hits for around 1000 damage. That's not that far off from Charged bolts. Add in A plasma Proc? Ofcourse it does more damage. That's not even counting the survivability increase, which ofcourse, leads to more damage over time.

 

I regularly score 350k damage with AS. Essentially, that's me running around shooting people with Inc Round, Hammer Shot, HIB and Assault Plas ( not including defensive stuff mind you ).

 

Now if you think you can do that consistently on a Gunnery Commando, then Kudos. I have played gunnery at 50, I have scored 400k damage at times. I have had 100k games as well. It's just not consistent.

 

I will be the first to admit, Gunnery is a lot more fun however. That's what you want out of a Commando when you roll it. And it's what I wanted originally to. But im way to much of a Min-Max guy to let the potential of AS go to waste. You can not believe me if you want, Id just ask that you TRY it. You'll see a increase in consistent damage.

[Dutchpower]

Hail of bolts is amazing for void star. I can denie a whole group of people time and time again.

 

Als there are plenty of ways to LoS the enemy long enough to make a difference.

[dejavy]

I tried both specs and still doubt what's best My valor lvl is 34 and i experienced a lot of different situations in both specs. I came to conclusion that both are really fine in PVP and you just won't find the best one between them because their roles and combat style are absolutely different and things that work well in one situation don't in another.

 

Gunnery is just amazing spec with so delicious numbers when you stand still and shoot down one by one. (until shadow appears behind and brings ***pain by breaking your grav cast TT). In general Gunery is a lazy mode, but don't throw tomatoes in me )) Comparing with vanguard ACs and Commando AS - Gunnery requires nothing else but stand calm and shoot "rabbits" running around fighting with your team mates. Others have to do MUCH more to reach the same numbers. Unfortunately Gunner loses most of the numbers in face to face combat with a good player against. What we can't say about AS.

 

AS is good on the move there's nothing to add. Whatever guys have said above concerning the same spec mobility, AS is much more mobile i can say. It's just my subjective feeling about it. In most cases i have to kite melee running around and hide behind walls from range DOTing them with inc round, plasma grenades etc. But it's still much easier to change your dislocation with less damage reduction than you'd do being a Gunner.

 

I added a couple of Commandos to my friend list and we gonna test more and more both of the specs. For now i choose AS just not to be a turret on the battlefield and have more chances against stealthers. Can't forget the phrase of my enemy "spam more gravs" when i tried to kill him in melee and each time he broke the cast kicking my *** until i die. That was REALLY sad my friends. And i knew, i could do nothing with it in that small room we fought, except sticky and stock. That's upset indeed about the Gunnery.

 

Time will tell what to choose on 50 but though i use AS now my soul calls for Gunnery Hope you'll write about your experience not pure theory craft.

Edited December 26, 2011 by dejavy

[LordKivlov]

Hammer shot normally hits for around 1000 damage. That's not that far off from Charged bolts. Add in A plasma Proc? Ofcourse it does more damage. That's not even counting the survivability increase, which ofcourse, leads to more damage over time.

 

I regularly score 350k damage with AS. Essentially, that's me running around shooting people with Inc Round, Hammer Shot, HIB and Assault Plas ( not including defensive stuff mind you ).

 

Now if you think you can do that consistently on a Gunnery Commando, then Kudos. I have played gunnery at 50, I have scored 400k damage at times. I have had 100k games as well. It's just not consistent.

 

I will be the first to admit, Gunnery is a lot more fun however. That's what you want out of a Commando when you roll it. And it's what I wanted originally to. But im way to much of a Min-Max guy to let the potential of AS go to waste. You can not believe me if you want, Id just ask that you TRY it. You'll see a increase in consistent damage.

To be fair, most of your damage is from padding your numbers with Incendiary, Assault Plasqitue and Plasma Cell.

 

The difference is you're doing little bits of damage to everything whereas a stationary gunnery is killing people. You put miniscule amounts of pressure on healers unless you're stationary and using charged bolts and full auto and when you're doing that, you might as well just be gunnery since you'll put out more damage.

 

Also, 1000 damage? What the hell. Grav round ignores armour and hits most people for 1200 damage. Hammershot, even with 9% damage from a burning target won't be hitting that much. I think you're hyperbolizing just a little bit with that.

 

I just don't see AS being particularily ammo friendly due to Incendiary round being 3 ammo. The only upside to that is you're going to be hammershotting a lot more so you're less reliant on ammo to begin with. Your only source of ammo return would be if someone spams snares on you which a gunnery will get at 50 also. And HIB on burning target, or from procs but then when you're stationary, gunnery is better.

Edited December 26, 2011 by LordKivlov

[Kenmuir]

I tried both specs and still doubt what's best My valor lvl is 34 and i experienced a lot of different situations in both specs. I came to conclusion that both are really fine in PVP and you just won't find the best one between them because their roles and combat style are absolutely different and things that work well in one situation don't in another.

 

Gunnery is just amazing spec with so delicious numbers when you stand still and shoot down one by one. (until shadow appears behind and brings ***pain by breaking your grav cast TT). In general Gunery is a lazy mode, but don't throw tomatoes in me )) Comparing with vanguard ACs and Commando AS - Gunnery requires nothing else but stand calm and shoot "rabbits" running around fighting with your team mates. Others have to do MUCH more to reach the same numbers. Unfortunately Gunner loses most of the numbers in face to face combat with a good player against. What we can't say about AS.

 

AS is good on the move there's nothing to add. Whatever guys have said above concerning the same spec mobility, AS is much more mobile i can say. It's just my subjective feeling about it. In most cases i have to kite melee running around and hide behind walls from range DOTing them with inc round, plasma grenades etc. But it's still much easier to change your dislocation with less damage reduction than you'd do being a Gunner.

 

I added a couple of Commandos to my friend list and we gonna test more and more both of the specs. For now i choose AS just not to be a turret on the battlefield and have more chances against stealthers. Can't forget the phrase of my enemy "spam more gravs" when i tried to kill him in melee and each time he broke the cast kicking my *** until i die. That was REALLY sad my friends. And i knew, i could do nothing with it in that small room we fought, except sticky and stock. That's upset indeed about the Gunnery.

 

Time will tell what to choose on 50 but though i use AS now my soul calls for Gunnery Hope you'll write about your experience not pure theory craft.

 

Have you read the discussion?

Did you just read the title and decide to respond? Look at some of the earlier posts i made and realize that this figment of your imagination know as "AS having more mobility" is just that, not true.

 

You literally have the same number of cast time and instacast spells, it is not possible for AS to be more mobile, unless you are just spamming Hammer Shot while running around like a headless chicken or tab dotting everyone with incendiary round. Both of which deal useless damage.

 

What is wrong with theorycraft? It's telling you that your perferred style of play might not be the best in there is? It can't take into account everything that can happen? It's something those nerds down the hall do? What is wrong with good theorycrafting? And if you could, what part of my theorycraft was wrong/do you disagree with?

 

Oh wait, I missed this gem:

 

Can't forget the phrase of my enemy "spam more gravs" when i tried to kill him in melee and each time he broke the cast kicking my *** until i die. That was REALLY sad my friends. And i knew, i could do nothing with it in that small room we fought, except sticky and stock. That's upset indeed about the Gunnery.

 

No wonder you think Gunnery is bad, you don't know how or just didn't play it correctly. You facetank'd a melee class and expected to win? You didn't even use a knockback/stun and try to kite? Did you somehow lose the ability to cast Demo Round, High Impact Bolt, Stockstrike, Explosive Round, Hammershot, and Sticky Grenade? It's hard to take your critique of Gunnery seriously when you don't play it correctly and then proceed to come here and complain.

Edited December 26, 2011 by Kenmuir

[xPrTx]

To be fair, most of your damage is from padding your numbers with Incendiary, Assault Plasqitue and Plasma Cell.

 

The difference is you're doing little bits of damage to everything whereas a stationary gunnery is killing people. You put miniscule amounts of pressure on healers unless you're stationary and using charged bolts and full auto and when you're doing that, you might as well just be gunnery since you'll put out more damage.

 

Also, 1000 damage? What the hell. Grav round ignores armour and hits most people for 1200 damage. Hammershot, even with 9% damage from a burning target won't be hitting that much. I think you're hyperbolizing just a little bit with that.

 

I just don't see AS being particularily ammo friendly due to Incendiary round being 3 ammo. The only upside to that is you're going to be hammershotting a lot more so you're less reliant on ammo to begin with. Your only source of ammo return would be if someone spams snares on you which a gunnery will get at 50 also. And HIB on burning target, or from procs but then when you're stationary, gunnery is better.

 

1: Grav round does not ignore armor. It's Kinetic. The only damage that ignores armor is Elemental and Internal.

2: Im pretty sure most of my damage numbers are so high because its almost all elemental damage, which no one has resistance to. Even if they did have res, im at like 107% tech accuracy so I negate 7% of the elemental Res anyway.

3: Im in full Champ/Cent gear. I have a ton of crit and surge ( at like 210% now, 240% with crit dmg talent in AS ). My damage is rediculous, and i am pretty much never standing still. A single Tick of Plasma Cell is doing near 1000 damage on a crit. ONE TICK.

4: I really don't have issues with ammo. You look at it on paper and it looks bad. I know. But really it isn't an issue. There's probally one time in any given warzone that im out of ammo. And thats mostly do to me throwing heals to objectives and such. I do hammer shot a lot though, haha.

[ZefiruShrike]

Spamming Hammershots while running away is a good way to get some distance, since our procs act as a snare.

 

That's the only thing I have to contribute to this discussion.

 

Goodbye.

[xPrTx]

Have you read the discussion?

Did you just read the title and decide to respond? Look at some of the earlier posts i made and realize that this figment of your imagination know as "AS having more mobility" is just that, not true.

 

You literally have the same number of cast time and instacast spells, it is not possible for AS to be more mobile, unless you are just spamming Hammer Shot while running around like a headless chicken or tab dotting everyone with incendiary round. Both of which deal useless damage.

 

Having the same number of cast time/instacast spells doesn't change how the class is played. I spend the majority of the WZ moving. There's only one skill I cast that has a channel/cast time now, and thats Full Auto. More often then not, im just casting that for the 60% HIB refresh.

 

Hammer Shot does a LOT more damage then people give it credit for. Multi Hit skills and procs get added value from crit and surge. Lets say you have 50% crit. Grav Round has 50% Crit. Hammer Shot has 50% Crit, 50% Crit, 50% Crit.

 

This means that over time, Hammer shots Effective Value is going to be higher then stated because of multiple hits compared to a single hit.

 

It won't ever flat beat Grav Round, at least over time, even with the EV increase and 9% talent. But it get's it close enough that Plasma Cell will make up the difference.

 

There's also the issue of different Cells.

 

As much as we associate Armor Pen with Gunnery, I think there's a relevant case to be made for it in AS. While you do lose some effectiveness in Talents, It's essentially going to add 35% damage to your rotation, as Elemental Damage isn't really resisted, and Kinetic is naturally resisted.

 

I have not tested this however, and will test it tonight. In the end I think it will be better for burst, worse for sustained. Plasma Cell is just so sexy.

[Kenmuir]

Having the same number of cast time/instacast spells doesn't change how the class is played. I spend the majority of the WZ moving. There's only one skill I cast that has a channel/cast time now, and thats Full Auto. More often then not, im just casting that for the 60% HIB refresh.

 

 

Could you then say the reverse for AS? That since we both have the same skills, as gunnery I could be just as mobile as you? Or does it only benefit the way you play?

 

Again what abilities are you using as AS that can't be done with Gunnery?

 

Hammer Shot does a LOT more damage then people give it credit for. Multi Hit skills and procs get added value from crit and surge. Lets say you have 50% crit. Grav Round has 50% Crit. Hammer Shot has 50% Crit, 50% Crit, 50% Crit.

 

This means that over time, Hammer shots Effective Value is going to be higher then stated because of multiple hits compared to a single hit.

 

There's this thing called statistics. Please go learn how probability works before saying things like this. 50% crit benefits all abilities the same, except for abilities with increased crit damage, which Hammer Shot does not have.

 

 

It won't ever flat beat Grav Round, at least over time, even with the EV increase and 9% talent. But it get's it close enough that Plasma Cell will make up the difference.

 

Cool math you did there. Did you miss the part where AP cell beats out Rain of Fire at 18% damage reduction. AKA every target you hit, and it doesn't need you to either hit a 16% proc or waste 3 ammo on a low dps ability.

 

 

There's also the issue of different Cells.

 

As much as we associate Armor Pen with Gunnery, I think there's a relevant case to be made for it in AS. While you do lose some effectiveness in Talents, It's essentially going to add 35% damage to your rotation, as Elemental Damage isn't really resisted, and Kinetic is naturally resisted.

 

Again, math must not be your strong point. 35% armor pen =/= 35% damage increase, it depends on how much armor your Target has for the damage % increase. Also the amount of elemental damage you deal, even as an AS spec should be small compared to the amount of Kinetic damage and Energy damage you deal.

 

Also, it isn't some effectiveness, it's 15 talents you spent points in that are less effective because you switched cells. That's 37% of your talent points that are not as effective as they could be. It's almost like you stopped spending you talent points at level 35 while playing a level 50 character.

 

 

I have not tested this however, and will test it tonight. In the end I think it will be better for burst, worse for sustained. Plasma Cell is just so sexy.

 

Plasma cell has a .35 ratio on bonus damage per tic, at a 16% proc rate, that's adding an average of .056 tech bonus damage per attack. To have that beat out 35% armor pen, you target would have to have like less than 7% damage reduction, AKA armor cell always beats it.

 

Also saying that your Hammer Shot hits for 1k damage on average? That means you average hit for charged bolts/grav round would be like 4k damage.

[dejavy]

No wonder you think Gunnery is bad, you don't know how or just didn't play it correctly. You facetank'd a melee class and expected to win? You didn't even use a knockback/stun and try to kite? Did you somehow lose the ability to cast Demo Round, High Impact Bolt, Stockstrike, Explosive Round, Hammershot, and Sticky Grenade? It's hard to take your critique of Gunnery seriously when you don't play it correctly and then proceed to come here and complain.

 

First of all, i'm not an idiot, my friend and i used all the available skills to keep the distance. But in case you're on CD and a shadow's behind your back already you just can't do anything at all. No, you can - you can avoid some damage but you can't damage back. Secondly, i didn't say i didn't like Gunnery I like it so much for many aspects. I rerolled back to gunnery yesterday btw and now learn how to deal with melees.

 

I'm sure the spec has great potential.

[xPrTx]

Could you then say the reverse for AS? That since we both have the same skills, as gunnery I could be just as mobile as you? Or does it only benefit the way you play?

 

You could, but being just as mobile as me would result in less damage then I do. I think that's the issue im trying to impart.

 

 

Again what abilities are you using as AS that can't be done with Gunnery?

 

Aside from the obvious ones? None. Doing it as gunnery, again, will yield less damage.

 

 

There's this thing called statistics. Please go learn how probability works before saying things like this. 50% crit benefits all abilities the same, except for abilities with increased crit damage, which Hammer Shot does not have.

 

No, No it doesn't. Three Chances to crit will equate to more overall damage then a single chance to crit. That's pretty standard math. Not sure where you are going with this. AP cell will benefit all the same. Maybe thats what your thinking off. But even AP Cell will have interactions with critical hits and damage, where it gets benefits.

 

 

 

Cool math you did there. Did you miss the part where AP cell beats out Rain of Fire at 18% damage reduction. AKA every target you hit, and it doesn't need you to either hit a 16% proc or waste 3 ammo on a low dps ability.

 

This response makes no sense to what you quoted. Rain of Fire was not in the quote at all, and I said Grav will always win. And again, 16%, Times 3, is not 16%. Not sure where your missing the multiple hit effects.

 

 

 

Again, math must not be your strong point. 35% armor pen =/= 35% damage increase, it depends on how much armor your Target has for the damage % increase. Also the amount of elemental damage you deal, even as an AS spec should be small compared to the amount of Kinetic damage and Energy damage you deal.

 

I appologize, im at work and dealing with alot of things. Not sure how i came up with that. Atleast half my damage is elemental.

 

Also, it isn't some effectiveness, it's 15 talents you spent points in that are less effective because you switched cells. That's 37% of your talent points that are not as effective as they could be. It's almost like you stopped spending you talent points at level 35 while playing a level 50 character.

 

It's not 15 talents. Why do you keep saying that. If your not using Plasma Cell, it becomes IRRELEVANT that plasma cell shares a talent with something you would take either way. The only complete waste you have is the 3 points to get the HIB talent.

 

 

 

Plasma cell has a .35 ratio on bonus damage per tic, at a 16% proc rate, that's adding an average of .056 tech bonus damage per attack. To have that beat out 35% armor pen, you target would have to have like less than 7% damage reduction, AKA armor cell always beats it.

 

Also saying that your Hammer Shot hits for 1k damage on average? That means you average hit for charged bolts/grav round would be like 4k damage.

 

Nobody has Elemental Damage reduction. It's in a different category from Kinetic/Energy. And being at 107% accuracy, I reduce any Elemental Reduction they DO have, by 7%.

 

So, but that logic, they would have to have 14% Elemental Res for AP to be better then Plasma? Im pretty sure no one in the world has 14%.

 

My Grav Round hits for like 1400 or so, crits for around 3200? Something like that, I havent been Gunnery since i completed my PvP gear set, so don't quote me on that.

[Kenmuir]

You could, but being just as mobile as me would result in less damage then I do. I think that's the issue im trying to impart.

 

 

Again, show me how. Please don't just say, "oh i know i'm doing more damage even though the math says i'm not."

 

Aside from the obvious ones? None. Doing it as gunnery, again, will yield less damage.

 

 

Again more claims without any proof.

 

 

No, No it doesn't. Three Chances to crit will equate to more overall damage then a single chance to crit. That's pretty standard math. Not sure where you are going with this.

 

Sorry man, that's not how math works.

 

 

 

 

This response makes no sense to what you quoted. Rain of Fire was not in the quote at all,

 

You're right, I just quoted the part about the 9% extra damage on burning targets talent, not Rain of fire the talent that gives 9%extra damage on burning targets.

 

 

and I said Grav will always win. And again, 16%, Times 3, is not 16%. Not sure where your missing the multiple hit effects.

 

You seem to be implying that the damage is much closer than it really is. It's not 16% times three, it's .84 ^ 3 to not have the proc.

 

 

 

I appologize, im at work and dealing with alot of things. Not sure how i came up with that. Atleast half my damage is elemental.

 

Somehow I doubt that, very few attacks deal elemental damage, Plasma Cell, the burn on Plasma Grenade, Incendiary Round, and Pulse Cannon. That just leaves soo much time for you to be doing other things that I just can't believe that half your damage is elemental. And impossible to prove without some theorycraft on your part or a combat log parse, which you can't provide.

 

 

 

It's not 15 talents. Why do you keep saying that. If your not using Plasma Cell, it becomes IRRELEVANT that plasma cell shares a talent with something you would take either way. The only complete waste you have is the 3 points to get the HIB talent.

 

The statement was less effective. Not using Plasma Cell has an effect on all of those talents I listed, even if it is small. If there is any talent you disagree with please say which one. But ultimately the point is that with a Gunnery Spec I don't have any "wasted talents," I may have some that are situational, but none of them are less effective than the description based on how I play.

 

 

Nobody has Elemental Damage reduction. It's in a different category from Kinetic/Energy. And being at 107% accuracy, I reduce any Elemental Reduction they DO have, by 7%.

 

So, but that logic, they would have to have 14% Elemental Res for AP to be better then Plasma? Im pretty sure no one in the world has 14%.

 

That was in the context of the amount of damage dealt by Hammer Shot, which deals weapon damage aka Energy damage. AP cell has no effect on Elemental or Internal damage, but at the same time neither does Plasma Cell. The damage that both specs deal with elemental attacks is the same, save for Burnout and Assault Trooper talents.

 

 

My Grav Round hits for like 1400 or so, crits for around 3200? Something like that, I havent been Gunnery since i completed my PvP gear set, so don't quote me on that.

 

If grav Round hits for like 1400 damage, your Hammer Shot is not hitting for 1k damage, which is what I was saying.

 

First of all, i'm not an idiot, my friend and i used all the available skills to keep the distance. But in case you're on CD and a shadow's behind your back already you just can't do anything at all. No, you can - you can avoid some damage but you can't damage back. Secondly, i didn't say i didn't like Gunnery I like it so much for many aspects. I rerolled back to gunnery yesterday btw and now learn how to deal with melees.

 

I'm sure the spec has great potential.

 

But my point was how does an AS spec handle this situation better? If you CC is on cooldown it comes back faster with a Gunnery Spec. You have the same number of instacast spells you can use on the move, most of which will deal more damage than with an AS spec, save for Assault Plastique I think.

 

The point I'm trying to make is that AS is a weak spec that needs some improvements from Bioware.

Edited December 27, 2011 by Kenmuir

[Dashall]

I'm staying with Gunnery for the time being. Havent tried AS I am going by what I see on the ability tree. I can certainly understand the desire to be more mobile, but AS has too many drawbacks to justify the move. We are essentially casters, casters typically have to stand still periodically to do damage.

 

Incendiary Round v Grav Round:

 

Yes you can IR cast on the run but GR has the damage front loaded. I will take that option every time in PvP. IR DoT is 18 seconds?! Is that correct? I assume it stacks, is there a set amount you can have on targets? Is it cleansable?

 

Survivability / Utility:

 

Gunnery seems a bit more survivable to me with the defensive gains from Grav Round,Kolto Recharge and a reduced timer on Tenacity. I am jealous of Degauss and faster Shield though in AS.

 

Full Auto:

 

First, they need to adjust Full Auto to fire immediately, but in general FA is so much more powerful as Gunnery and it's a staple ability.

Edited December 27, 2011 by Dashall

[xPrTx]

Again, show me how. Please don't just say, "oh i know i'm doing more damage even though the math says i'm not."

 

If your moving...

 

Assault Plas > Demo

Hammer Shot + Plasma > Gun Hammer Shot + AP

HIB > Gun HIB

Inc Round > Explosive Round

 

Pretty obviously will yield more damage. Even though you have the same "cast times" on all these abilities, AS versions will do more damage. What part of that did you not understand?

 

 

 

You're right, I just quoted the part about the 9% extra damage on burning targets talent, not Rain of fire the talent that gives 9%extra damage on burning targets.

 

Why are you comparing a Cell to Rain of Fire at all?

 

 

 

You seem to be implying that the damage is much closer than it really is. It's not 16% times three, it's .84 ^ 3 to not have the proc.

 

 

And .84 ^ 3 = .59 to not have the proc. Seems a lot closer to 41% then 16%.

 

 

 

Somehow I doubt that, very few attacks deal elemental damage, Plasma Cell, the burn on Plasma Grenade, Incendiary Round, and Pulse Cannon. That just leaves soo much time for you to be doing other things that I just can't believe that half your damage is elemental. And impossible to prove without some theorycraft on your part or a combat log parse, which you can't provide.

 

I wouldn't count plasma, it does both kinetic and elemental, pretty much a wash.

 

Now that they are listed out, It's probally not half. It's a good chunk for sure with the talents and what not, but not half.

 

 

 

 

The statement was less effective. Not using Plasma Cell has an effect on all of those talents I listed, even if it is small. If there is any talent you disagree with please say which one. But ultimately the point is that with a Gunnery Spec I don't have any "wasted talents," I may have some that are situational, but none of them are less effective than the description based on how I play.

 

That's not true. Charged barrier and curtain of fire proc off charged bolts and grav round. You don't use charged bolts, so you don't count it against yourself. That's essentially the exact same thing I would be doing as AP, I wouldn't count any of the plasma components against myself.

 

 

If grav Round hits for like 1400 damage, your Hammer Shot is not hitting for 1k damage, which is what I was saying.

 

But it is. I have seen single Hammer Shot crit's as high as 975 damage. A single shot. I have no reason to lie here. It's our basic attack lol. On average, My hammer shots do around 1k damage. I can spec back to Gunnery if youd like, and tell you exactly how much it does.

 

 

The point I'm trying to make is that AS is a weak spec that needs some improvements from Bioware.

 

It could use some improvements, sure. But it's not as bad as people make it out to be.

 

 

I have been queing with another 50 AS Commando lately. Everything stacks. It's pretty sick lol.

[Kenmuir]

If your moving...

 

Assault Plas > Demo

Hammer Shot + Plasma > Gun Hammer Shot + AP

HIB > Gun HIB

Inc Round > Explosive Round

 

Pretty obviously will yield more damage. Even though you have the same "cast times" on all these abilities, AS versions will do more damage. What part of that did you not understand?

 

 

The part where you just say things without giving any explanations or doing anything resembling theorycraft or a combat parse. Also, you arn't comparing the right abilities, I already did this earlier in the thread and somehow you still get it wrong.

 

Assault Plastique is the AS version of Sticky Grenade. It even starts the cooldown on both of them. Yes, it does more damage, roughly 1.5 better scaling on tech bonus damage. For the scaling difference to beat out the armor pen from Gunery, Just counting the AP cell would be anything below 60% damage reduction on your target, which I think would be most targets you cast it on. But the damage difference is less than it looks by just looking at the scaling difference.

 

Hammer Shot with AS is not better than Hammer Shot with Gunnery, I've already showed you the math on that one multiple times. Please read the thread.

 

HIB with Gunnery Equals the damage with AS if you ignore armor penetration and try to maximize the amount of cooldown resets you get as AS spec, meaning you spend most of your time chain casting Charged Bolts. Again, another post I already made that shows this, please go back and read it.

 

Incendiary Round is not the equivalent of Explosive round, it is the equivalent of Demo Round. I haven't done the math on this one yet but, a quite looks show Demo to have a coefficient of 2.0 with a 15 second cooldown while Incendiary Round has a 2.3 coefficient with an 18 second cooldown. Demo Round has much higher burst, but the sustained damage looks roughly the same, assuming you ignore the armor pen in Gunnery and the Damage buff from casting Grav Round.

 

Why are you comparing a Cell to Rain of Fire at all?

 

Because both of them provide passive % increases to damage.

 

And .84 ^ 3 = .59 to not have the proc. Seems a lot closer to 41% then 16%.

 

 

Correct, but most attacks don't hit 3 times in one global cooldown. And the scaling isn't very good to make this viable, 1:1 scaling on weapon damage and ~.15 scaling on bonus tech damage. Every other ability we have scales better than that.

 

 

 

I wouldn't count plasma, it does both kinetic and elemental, pretty much a wash.

 

Now that they are listed out, It's probally not half. It's a good chunk for sure with the talents and what not, but not half.

 

Do you now see how hyperbole and a lack of evidence is not helping this discussion?

 

 

 

That's not true. Charged barrier and curtain of fire proc off charged bolts and grav round. You don't use charged bolts, so you don't count it against yourself. That's essentially the exact same thing I would be doing as AP, I wouldn't count any of the plasma components against myself.

 

 

That's what we in the business of theorycraft call Decoy Talents.

 

 

 

But it is. I have seen single Hammer Shot crit's as high as 975 damage. A single shot. I have no reason to lie here. It's our basic attack lol. On average, My hammer shots do around 1k damage. I can spec back to Gunnery if youd like, and tell you exactly how much it does.

 

You've see one crit for 975 and now all of your hits are for 1k, The highest damage weapon in the game has a max of 597 damage, to simply get to 1k damage you would need to have 400 bonus damage from Aim/Power, which would equate to having roughly 2000ish power/aim. Which would require you to have the best gear in the game to pull that off, and I'm not even sure you would get close to that. And of course your target to have no armor or base stats.

 

 

It could use some improvements, sure. But it's not as bad as people make it out to be.

 

 

I have been queing with another 50 AS Commando lately. Everything stacks. It's pretty sick lol.

 

It would also stack with another Gunnery Commando, with full grav round stacks from each other you would have roughly 58% armor pen and much higher burst.

[pizzaghul]

AS does look nice, but the question isn't about the damage per se, but about the ability to actually kill stuff. If that's possible with AS, I'll consider the spec.

 

Right now, playing Gunnery, I've noticed that

 

a) Rangeds are easymode (except Snipers)

b) Melees are doable, if you get first hit (which, against stealth classes, obviously won't happen)

c) If they let you go into "turret mode", which does happen quite often, you're the death machine. The same applies to having a pocket healer. In my 30s, I (heal-specced) and a DPS Commando of similar level held a point 5 minutes. We went in 2v3, it went to 2v2, 2v1, 2v4 at times, but we held that *****.

 

In a 1v1 against a melee, AS might be better...if you're being trained, Combat Medic would be best. :|

That said, I'll give AS a shot, maybe sometime this week. The same goes for medic. Finally, a class with three awesome skill trees.

 

PS. BioWare, ffs give us an option to turn off that ridiculous cheering in Huttball. I need to know what's going on, and that moronic sound isn't helping. Doesn't respond to Ambient, where it belongs.

[juhalanz]

AS does look nice, but the question isn't about the damage per se, but about the ability to actually kill stuff. If that's possible with AS, I'll consider the spec.

 

Right now, playing Gunnery, I've noticed that

 

a) Rangeds are easymode (except Snipers)

b) Melees are doable, if you get first hit (which, against stealth classes, obviously won't happen)

c) If they let you go into "turret mode", which does happen quite often, you're the death machine. The same applies to having a pocket healer. In my 30s, I (heal-specced) and a DPS Commando of similar level held a point 5 minutes. We went in 2v3, it went to 2v2, 2v1, 2v4 at times, but we held that *****.

 

In a 1v1 against a melee, AS might be better...if you're being trained, Combat Medic would be best. :|

That said, I'll give AS a shot, maybe sometime this week. The same goes for medic. Finally, a class with three awesome skill trees.

 

PS. BioWare, ffs give us an option to turn off that ridiculous cheering in Huttball. I need to know what's going on, and that moronic sound isn't helping. Doesn't respond to Ambient, where it belongs.

 

I was about to reply this 3d, with this quote.

 

I'm Lv. 47, i've tried both Gunnery and AS on Warzones.

 

I found Gunnery a lot better, more burst and more finish power. Full auto even specced is not so great ( too time to cast it ) but Grav Round - > Demo Round and High impact bolt are just so great.

 

I find a lot more reliable in killing people, even harder to play, Gunnery then AS.

[Scotfo]

I would like to point out that there a couple of item's being overlooked here. The issue's of utility and control. AS has a snare you can virtually always put up when you need it, and has the benefits of any class that uses DoT; namely being that after initial application they continue to tick regardless of LoS. Also, please keep in mind that getting a target fully debuffed is much quicker with AS then getting a Gunnery spec target fully debuffed at 5 stacks of gravity well.

 

Let me elaborate a bit: I am not making any claim that any of these ability's give you the ability to deal more damage then Gunnery. What I am saying is that AS gives you more control over your target; and that in high-end PvP, control generally (not always) trumps flat out DPS. The ability to snare is huge. A well played AS with properly timed CD's can kite most of the melee classes indefinitely while keeping them in the "Dead Zone" most melee have at 10 meters. Even up against a well experienced opponent this is usually the case (though what CD's they have up vs how many you have up will always be a factor in those situations). I can't count the number of times I've been able to down an enemy who was trying to run down the end of a hall to LoS me around a corner by keeping him snared down the entire hallways (works even better in they pop they CC breaker to try and break the snare) only to cryo him right as he reached the corner, then finishing him off.

 

Then we have our flame DoT's. The usefulness of dots isn't that they themselves do amazing damage(they don't); it's the fact that they are so easy to apply and provide a constant source of damage. This means you can constantly eat away at an opponent while kiting them. I've played Gunnery (and personally loved it) quite extensively and can say with some degree of confidence that gunnery does not have the ability to deal equal sustained damage while kiting when compared to the constant damage provided with DoT's. Now I realize someone will list of some math here and say "Wrong! The math says otherwise!", but I find that all these calculation fail to factor in your opponent LoS'ing you or your ability to keep an opponent at range. Both of these factor are where AS has a distinct advantage over Gunnery. I will concede Gunnery does have superior burst on the move with Demo round but we all know demo round can eat through your ammo pretty fast. Let us not forget to mention that our DoT's keep the opponent in combat as well; denying them the ability to R&R.

 

These are distinct and important factor that are difficult to put into equation form...and any claims that gunnery is superior due to simple DPS calculations based on ideal scenario can not be considered to be anything other then opinion and conjecture at this point. Show me some hard numbers including the tactical scenarios I described above, and if gunnery still comes out ahead I will reconsider my stance. As of yet, I have found the play style to give me a distinct advantage over playing Gunnery.

[xPrTx]

 

 

You've see one crit for 975 and now all of your hits are for 1k, The highest damage weapon in the game has a max of 597 damage, to simply get to 1k damage you would need to have 400 bonus damage from Aim/Power, which would equate to having roughly 2000ish power/aim. Which would require you to have the best gear in the game to pull that off, and I'm not even sure you would get close to that. And of course your target to have no armor or base stats.

 

 

 

It would also stack with another Gunnery Commando, with full grav round stacks from each other you would have roughly 58% armor pen and much higher burst.

 

No, Im saying I have seen one of the three hits from Hammer shot go as high as 975. I never said all my hits are 975. My hammershot average hits for 1k total damage. My regular crits are around 600-700 damage, and my regular hits do around 200-250. If I crit 40% of the time, I have a 79% chance to crit with one of the shots.

 

79% crit chance for 650 ( middle of average crits ), means on average one shot is going to do 513.5 damage. If you take the average of the regular shots ( 225 ), your doing 963.5 damage, on average with hammer shot. Now It's hard to get a baseline for this, as I am basically just using memory of the last few nights of WZ's. If you wanted, I could go to some lower level mobs with atleast 1k hp, shoot them and take screenshots before and after, then go to higher level mobs, and do the same.

 

As far as my gear/stats:

 

I have 1500~ aim. I have 40~ Power. All of my champion/Cent pieces have had there enhancements replaced with Advanced Battle Enhancement 22 ( and i am now using my duplicate champ tokens to grab 48 surge pieces and taking out mods ( ABE 22 has 39 surge ).

 

So while your math isn't incorrect in RAW damage, you have to factor in additional effective damage in the shape of Crit rate, Crit Damage, Expertise Damage Bonus, and Talent Effects.

[xPrTx]

. Full auto even specced is not so great ( too time to cast it ) but Grav Round - > Demo Round and High impact bolt are just so great.

 

I switched back to Gunnery Last night for raiding. I also did like 15 wz's last night as gunnery.

 

The poster I quoted probally hasn't hit the talents for full auto yet. My Full auto does rediculous damage. Were talking like 1400 regular hits with 3k crits. Each hit. Thats 4300-9k damage with a single skill in 3 seconds. Really strong.

[Kenmuir]

No, Im saying I have seen one of the three hits from Hammer shot go as high as 975. I never said all my hits are 975. My hammershot average hits for 1k total damage. My regular crits are around 600-700 damage, and my regular hits do around 200-250. If I crit 40% of the time, I have a 79% chance to crit with one of the shots.

 

79% crit chance for 650 ( middle of average crits ), means on average one shot is going to do 513.5 damage. If you take the average of the regular shots ( 225 ), your doing 963.5 damage, on average with hammer shot. Now It's hard to get a baseline for this, as I am basically just using memory of the last few nights of WZ's. If you wanted, I could go to some lower level mobs with atleast 1k hp, shoot them and take screenshots before and after, then go to higher level mobs, and do the same.

 

As far as my gear/stats:

 

I have 1500~ aim. I have 40~ Power. All of my champion/Cent pieces have had there enhancements replaced with Advanced Battle Enhancement 22 ( and i am now using my duplicate champ tokens to grab 48 surge pieces and taking out mods ( ABE 22 has 39 surge ).

 

So while your math isn't incorrect in RAW damage, you have to factor in additional effective damage in the shape of Crit rate, Crit Damage, Expertise Damage Bonus, and Talent Effects.

 

You really haven't noticed that the 3 "shots" in Hammer Shot deal different damage? The first and last one deal like 15% of the total damage and the middle one deals 70% of the total damage, so the math you tried to do is completely wrong. Not to mention that you calculated the average damage wrong.

 

You even said in your stats you can't reach the require damage on a target with Zero damage reduction.

 

Comon, at least try to make a reasonable post. You also ignored everything else I posted just to target that one part. Like the part where you give evidence to support your claims, or try and do some number based theorycraft.

[pizzaghul]

See, Scotfo's post is one I can totally agree with. As someone said earlier in this thread: "This is PvP, we use tactics, not math."

It's the same reason a WoW Mage will generally spec Frost for PvP. Not because it does more DPS (discounting well-timed DF shatters, it doesn't), or because it's more fun to play (it isn't), but because it lets you control the enemy.

And yes, in a 1v1 scenario, I don't think Gunnery can stand up to AS. Definitely not against Melees. Against rangeds, maybe, if they don't try to LoS you (at which point they just die, it really is that simple).

In a warzone...I don't know. At least on my server, there's a lot of teamplay happening, and when playing with friends, I'm not that willing to give up the insane singletarget DPS for the control. Time will tell, really. Most likely, I'll play both, and I'll like both.

On a side note, has anyone here experimented with hybrid specs? AS/Gunnery would be intriguing, obviously, but also some Medic hybrids.

 

Oh and btw, does anyone else think PvP is quite well-balanced for an MMO release? Apart from the terrible, terrible damage (hi SC2) of Ops/Scoundrels, I've found it very evenly balanced so far, and that's pretty awesome.

[juhalanz]

See, Scotfo's post is one I can totally agree with. As someone said earlier in this thread: "This is PvP, we use tactics, not math."

 

I thought that PvP was about burst your target down faster you can.

 

Give up all the Damned Gunnery Burst for an "easy healable" damage and a pretty unreliable snare?

 

No ty.

 

Try a spec 31 Gunnery 10 AS? Maybe.

 

But atm i'm doing too good with my 7/32/2 Spec.

I tried AS spec with my Commando and i found it totally lacking in burst damage on PvP.

Edited December 29, 2011 by juhalanz

[Fight]

So what I have personally gathered from this thread:

 

AS - More mobility = more survivability, AOE attacks, objective denial and puts pressure on healers.

 

Gun - Situational single target damage, objective denial, kills.

 

With that in mind I will stick with gun, the ability to kill people in pvp instead of mass small ticks which do nothing but pad damage figures but still keeping the ability to deny objectives through insta-cast aoe's just seems better. Again - this is a personal choice.

[Dashall]

These are distinct and important factor that are difficult to put into equation form...and any claims that gunnery is superior due to simple DPS calculations based on ideal scenario can not be considered to be anything other then opinion and conjecture at this point.

 

Good post and I like the points you made. I will say though that you outlined situations that tend to favor AS. In conditions where the Commando has support from melee, Grav Round - FA - HIB - Demo burst is very powerful.

 

If any math were to be done I'd like to know how much DPS a talented Full Auto would do with Curtain of Fire proc and what the difference is between a Grav Round shot and an Assault Spec Charged Bolt.

 

Demo and Assault Plastique seems to be almost dead even on paper so I'd call that a push. I prefer the burst and debuff of the Grav Round to Incendiary, but if Charged bolt is similar burst it would be nice to have Incendiary to kite with and dot up players trying to cap flags.