Thoughts and Suggestions on Sentinel / Marauder Combat / Carnage Spec for PVP

[babygotmoreback]

Hi All.

 

I am starting this post to gather thoughts and suggestions to improve quality of life changes for combat spec sentinel. Before everyone judges, hear me out. For starters, I am not in any way suggesting the other trees defenses need a nerf (whether people believe they do or not). I am merely pointing out that the middle tree seems to be a bit behind the curve in survivability. Combat spec clearly lacks the survivability of the other 2 trees (watchman and focus). And, I do understand that each of the 3 trees work differently.

 

First off, watchman tree has those self-heals. I am not against this; it's one of the crown jewels of the tree. Additionally, watchman gets an extra second and further increased movement speed with force camou and 15 seconds off pacify plus that 6 second interrupt. It doesn't stop here. Watchman also gets health back while attacked when saber ward is up and the stance alone gives 4% elemental and internal damage reduction. Also of note, is their ability to leap right on the target (not a defensive but the tree that benefits most from our set bonus). These all fit nicely with there bit longer ramp up, but high sustained dps. As a side note, I think extending the duration of the stacks of merciless will be a positive change to this tree for pvp.

 

Alright, now the strong focus tree. Not only does this tree bring a lot of aoe and burst, it is very survivable. For starters, assuming defensive forms is talented, Shi-Cho form gives 4% damage reduction (with the additional 2% talented further up the tree). Additionally, this tree gets an extended time on rebuke (20% damage reduction for 10 seconds- but can last for up to 30 if being continuously attacked). While the other trees definitely utilize rebuke, it is less likely to drop off with the extended time. Moreover, focus gets the 30 second reduction on the cool down of guarded by the force with the benefit of it only taking 25% of their current health (even with the upcoming nerf, this is a great benefit).

 

And now combat. The combat tree does hold the talent 'Defensive Forms' which grants damage reduction for the other 2 trees, yet grants a 15% movement speed bonus to combat/carnage. I fail to see how this is a 'defensive form.' There are so many roots and cc's in the game that this is completely nullified. Also in the combat tree is 'Defensive Roll" granting 30% damage reduction for area of effect attacks. This ability is low in the tree and can easily (and should) be taken by all 3 trees. In other words, while this is a great talent, it is not specific to combat. The only other talent that improves our defensives is saber screen which allows a stacking buff (up to 3 stacks) for a max of 6% damage reduction and 6% ranged and melee defense. Although,and others can correct me if I'm wrong, I don't see the benefit of the defense here, but the damage reduction is nice(but again based on procced-ataru hits and is not guaranteed to be up). I do also want to mention that combat has the reduced cool down on Awe (keep in mind that Awe is not a hard stun and breaks on damage). This may save your life occasionally, but is most often used for objective play and peeling.

 

With all of that being said, I do realize that combat has high burst. However, this burst is not maintained and is followed by a low damage building phase. Additionally, this burst is easily stopped by cc, stuns, knockbacks, etc. While this is rather annoying for the other trees as well, they do not depend on a short-lasting self-buff to do their damage. As combat, if you get cc'd right when hit precision slash, your burst is gone. So you wait for HOJ to proc your refreshed cool down on precision and alas....cc'd again. To top it off, by the time our precision comes back off cool down, our resolve is such that we may be cc'd yet again. All our burst is gone at that point. I know that many say that burst and survivability do not go hand in hand. I get that. But if this is the case, combat needs a way to land our burst part of the time in exchange for the lower survivability. To this end, I have a couple of suggestions that may individually (I am not suggesting that all of these need to happen) help this issue.

 

1.) CC immunity is granted for 2 seconds (which is less than half of our buff time of 4.5 seconds) when precision slash is activated. Before anyone gets upset, this would not guarantee a master strike hit, but it would require more skill on other players to hit their cc at the appropriate time. However, this would allow players to get in at least 2 attacks in the window (blade storm, blade rush,or 2 ticks of master strike). Also keep in mind that our autocrit is also proc-based and not guaranteed to be up with precision.

 

2.) Instead of cc immunity for a short-time with precision, make a talent where the cool down on precision slash is refreshed if cc'd during the first 1.5 seconds.

 

3.) This is more of a quality of life suggestion. Disallow Hand of Justice to proc our refreshed cd on precision slash if precision slash is already off cool down.

EDIT

4.) This is my favorite suggestion. When controlled during precision, you are granted 2 seconds of100% armor pen immediately after becoming uncontrolled but this cannot happen more than once every 30 seconds. This is on a separate cd from HOJ proc.

 

I will be honest. I am pretty ignorant when it comes to coding so I am not sure what is even possible from that standpoint, but I have played sentinel for a long time and do think some changes are necessary for this tree..

 

I do also want to say that in regular warzones, we are generally able to get off solid damage. But in ranked, when it is purely kill with no other objective, we are very, very easy to shut down in this way.

 

I want to hear other opinions from sentinels and marauders, especially those that have played all 3 trees. I am even open to opinions of other classes, but please no unjustified 'all sents are OP.' 'My intention is not to create an imbalance. Playing a spec that is over-powered is not fun in my opinion. Thanks in advance for your replies!

Edited November 10, 2013 by babygotmoreback

[AngusFTW]

First off, watchman tree has those self-heals. I am not against this; it's one of the crown jewels of the tree. Additionally, watchman gets an extra second and further increased movement speed with force camou and 15 seconds off pacify plus that 6 second interrupt. It doesn't stop here. Watchman also gets health back while attacked when saber ward is up and the stance alone gives 4% elemental and internal damage reduction. Also of note, is their ability to leap right on the target (not a defensive but the tree that benefits most from our set bonus). These all fit nicely with there bit longer ramp up, but high sustained dps. As a side note, I think extending the duration of the stacks of merciless will be a positive change to this tree for pvp.

Watchman take longer to kill someone compared to combat or focus since its more sustained rather then burst so the survivability is kinda justified

Alright, now the strong focus tree. Not only does this tree bring a lot of aoe and burst, it is very survivable. For starters, assuming defensive forms is talented, Shi-Cho form gives 4% damage reduction (with the additional 2% talented further up the tree). Additionally, this tree gets an extended time on rebuke (20% damage reduction for 10 seconds- but can last for up to 30 if being continuously attacked). While the other trees definitely utilize rebuke, it is less likely to drop off with the extended time. Moreover, focus gets the 30 second reduction on the cool down of guarded by the force with the benefit of it only taking 25% of their current health (even with the upcoming nerf, this is a great benefit).

This i do agree with i think combat survivability should be MORE then focus not less since its a single target tree and focus its just ridiculous.

And now combat. The combat tree does hold the talent 'Defensive Forms' which grants damage reduction for the other 2 trees, yet grants a 15% movement speed bonus to combat/carnage. I fail to see how this is a 'defensive form.' There are so many roots and cc's in the game that this is completely nullified.

Combat is better off against roots then say watchman because camo is talented to break them. Watchman is in a lot worse state for being rooted/slowed since focus/combat both have methods to break those.

With all of that being said, I do realize that combat has high burst. However, this burst is not maintained and is followed by a low damage building phase. Additionally, this burst is easily stopped by cc, stuns, knockbacks, etc. While this is rather annoying for the other trees as well, they do not depend on a short-lasting self-buff to do their damage. As combat, if you get cc'd right when hit precision slash, your burst is gone. So you wait for HOJ to proc your refreshed cool down on precision and alas....cc'd again. To top it off, by the time our precision comes back off cool down, our resolve is such that we may be cc'd yet again. All our burst is gone at that point. I know that many say that burst and survivability do not go hand in hand. I get that. But if this is the case, combat needs a way to land our burst part of the time in exchange for the lower survivability. To this end, I have a couple of suggestions that may individually (I am not suggesting that all of these need to happen) help this issue.

 

1.) CC immunity is granted for 2 seconds (which is less than half of our buff time of 4.5 seconds) when precision slash is activated. Before anyone gets upset, this would not guarantee a master strike hit, but it would require more skill on other players to hit their cc at the appropriate time. However, this would allow players to get in at least 2 attacks in the window (blade storm, blade rush,or 2 ticks of master strike). Also keep in mind that our autocrit is also proc-based and not guaranteed to be up with precision.

 

2.) Instead of cc immunity for a short-time with precision, make a talent where the cool down on precision slash is refreshed if cc'd during the first 1.5 seconds.

 

3.) This is more of a quality of life suggestion. Disallow Hand of Justice to proc our refreshed cd on precision slash if precision slash is already off cool down.

TBH i think this is all part of playing combat, the reason i like this spec atm is because it actually takes a little thought to play well and knowing when you are going to get stunned etc.

 

The 2nd change you mention. For me? That already happens all the time since i use precision slash as soon as its off cd not to waste the reset, genreally they stun me even tho i havent got my major burst of yet and a fair amount of time HOJ has procced so when i come out of stun i can unload it since most players with just see precision/gore and stun on sight even though generally its the second one in group combat that will have the burst...

 

As for 2s cc immunity, i'm going to be honest even that would be overpowered. When RNG gods are on your side blade storm and hoj dispatch can put out like 16-18k burst if the dispatch crits.

 

I think the tree is good the main problem eating away at combat is that easy mode monkey smash tree sitting next to it that is easier to play and really effective pressure dmg. Taking time with combat in pvp to get decent at it is ultimately quite rewarding in my opinion

Edited November 9, 2013 by AngusFTW

[babygotmoreback]

Watchman take longer to kill someone compared to combat or focus since its more sustained rather then burst so the survivability is kinda justified

 

This i do agree with i think combat survivability should be MORE then focus not less since its a single target tree and focus its just ridiculous.

 

Combat is better off against roots then say watchman because camo is talented to break them. Watchman is in a lot worse state for being rooted/slowed since focus/combat both have methods to break those.

 

TBH i think this is all part of playing combat, the reason i like this spec atm is because it actually takes a little thought to play well and knowing when you are going to get stunned etc.

 

The 2nd change you mention. For me? That already happens all the time since i use precision slash as soon as its off cd not to waste the reset, genreally they stun me even tho i havent got my major burst of yet and a fair amount of time HOJ has procced so when i come out of stun i can unload it since most players with just see precision/gore and stun on sight even though generally its the second one in group combat that will have the burst...

 

As for 2s cc immunity, i'm going to be honest even that would be overpowered. When RNG gods are on your side blade storm and hoj dispatch can put out like 16-18k burst if the dispatch crits.

 

I think the tree is good the main problem eating away at combat is that easy mode monkey smash tree sitting next to it that is easier to play and really effective pressure dmg. Taking time with combat in pvp to get decent at it is ultimately quite rewarding in my opinion

 

Hi! Thank you so much for posting! I do agree on some accounts here, but also disagree on some and here's why.

I agree that watchman should be more survivable, but currently combat is far less than this. I'm also not asking for our style to be changed (I love it-and yes, it is challenging to play well). That's why I suggested the cc immunity and not extra defenses .

I will respectfully disagree with the 2 seconds of cc immunity with precision being overpowered. And you will not be getting 18k off in 2 GCD's, especially on geared players and when being taunted as you should be. However, if the RNG God's do happen to be on our side occasionally, we are much more often the victim's of bad RNG- that is our class design. Secondly, even with the very short cc immunity I am suggesting, we still remain rather "squishy" compared to other trees. I feel combat's 'defense' is designed such that you burst to kill the opponent first rather than actual defenses (which can be rather difficult with so many knockbacks, roots, and stuns-there are many, many tools to keep melee out of reach). That being as it is, in exchange for having less survivability, we should be able to get off SOME (only some) of our burst. Again, I'm not asking for a guaranteed full precision window or master strike. This would only allow 2 gcd's at max and require more skill on other players to shut us down. I doubt this change would affect our damage much except in ranked when people are really paying attention, in which the majority of your precision windows often get CC'd through. Additionally, I don't feel this would make us unstoppable. Our bane is accuracy debuffing as most of our attacks are physical damage.

 

However, I am open to other suggestions on how to rectify the survivability and easy shut-down of this spec. My intention is to offer suggestions that may help while hoping to engage a brainstorm on the matter

Edited November 9, 2013 by babygotmoreback

[babygotmoreback]

Sorry for the late addition but I actually think this is a solid solution.

 

4.) This is my favorite suggestion. When controlled during precision, you are granted 2 seconds of100% armor pen immediately after becoming uncontrolled but this cannot happen more than once every 30 seconds. This is on a separate cd from HOJ proc.

 

What are thoughts on this? I'd love to hear from you.

[Sappharan]

Sorry for the late addition but I actually think this is a solid solution.

 

4.) This is my favorite suggestion. When controlled during precision, you are granted 2 seconds of100% armor pen immediately after becoming uncontrolled but this cannot happen more than once every 30 seconds. This is on a separate cd from HOJ proc.

 

What are thoughts on this? I'd love to hear from you.

 

That would go a LONG way to offsetting how easily shut down Combat is, currently. Excellent suggestion. This might even be preferable to stacking Precision Slash that is sometimes suggested because some people can fit more into the window than others. I can fit a lot into the window--most of the time. Timing is everything and this would be a brilliant addition.

[babygotmoreback]

That would go a LONG way to offsetting how easily shut down Combat is, currently. Excellent suggestion. This might even be preferable to stacking Precision Slash that is sometimes suggested because some people can fit more into the window than others. I can fit a lot into the window--most of the time. Timing is everything and this would be a brilliant addition.

 

I completely agree. Thanks for posting!

[Kurkina]

While not defensive skills per se, I believe that the roots provided by combat's debilitation and displacement talents more than fairly offset its "lack" of the purer defensive abilities found in the other trees. I find these roots often tip the scales in WZ encounters, wheras defensive abilities in given situations might simply prolong the fight, with uncertain outcomes.

 

I would be interested in knowing if Watchman and Focus specs would trade off some of their defensive abilities for either of these roots. I bet they would.

[babygotmoreback]

While not defensive skills per se, I believe that the roots provided by combat's debilitation and displacement talents more than fairly offset its "lack" of the purer defensive abilities found in the other trees. I find these roots often tip the scales in WZ encounters, wheras defensive abilities in given situations might simply prolong the fight, with uncertain outcomes.

 

I would be interested in knowing if Watchman and Focus specs would trade off some of their defensive abilities for either of these roots. I bet they would.

 

Hi! Thanks for posting, but I do disagree. Our roots have lost much of their utility as classes, healing classes in particular, can spec to break/dodge roots (force sprint, dodge, hold the line, zealous leap, etc.) and I would argue there are many more tools to keep us out of melee range. Additionally, our master strike root is easily offset by a quick stun (which most times happens). In terms of utility, I would much rather the focus tree's ability to bypass roots themselves with zealous leap in addition to be able to leap to targets in cover. And watchman offers an additional raid benefit that neither tree does- raid healing- not to mention that quick interrupt. The specs just work differently. So in my opinion, combat does not really have additional utility than the other trees, but rather a different utility. If nothing else, an ability that reduces damage taken while stunned would be nice. Although, I would much prefer to take #4 of the suggestions listed in the original post.

Edited November 11, 2013 by babygotmoreback

[Kurkina]

In terms of utility, I would much rather the focus tree's ability to bypass roots themselves with zealous leap in addition to be able to leap to targets in cover.

 

mmmm ... I would definitely take that one, would even trade my beloved roots for it!

[waterboytkd]

I actually feel like Combat/Carnage plays about perfectly in WZs. Even when we get CC'd after popping Gore, we can refresh pretty fast via Slaughter. The only thing that really hurts is Ravage. Getting CC'd during a Ravage is just brutal, as that ability makes up a lot of our burst.

 

Rather than bumping our defenses up, which I believe are at the perfect spot for how this class plays (and should be the benchmark that Rage/Focus specs are brought to), I wouldn't mind seeing either:

 

A) Slaughter also refreshing Ravage, so when we do get that CC to hurt our dps, we can quickly recover, or

 

B) Get the ability to turn Force Choke/Stasis into an actual 4 second stun. That way, when we want to turn very bursty, we could hit with a stun then pop Gore/Precision Strike, and go nuts.

 

"A" seems like the much fairer alteration, as I feel our class's defensive abilities are based around the fact that we are the only class without a 4 second hard stun. Now, if Guarded by the Force/Undying Rage were changed so that we couldn't heal with it up, even by medpac, then "B" becomes a more balanced option. (As an aside, I know a lot of people think we shouldn't be able to heal while GbtF/UR is up, but it has one big flaw to it in that we can still be CC'd with it up; so if it changes to block healing, too, Sentinels/Marauders really lost their virtual stun in 1v1 situations, and that hp cost on it seems REALLY excessive).

[RodneyMcNeely]

From a purely lore perspective, Ataru-style combat is all about using the entire body to both attack and evade.

 

What about some sort of dodge mechanic built into the spec somewhere?

[babygotmoreback]

From a purely lore perspective, Ataru-style combat is all about using the entire body to both attack and evade.

 

What about some sort of dodge mechanic built into the spec somewhere?

 

I wouldn't be opposed to something like this. Maybe when talented in the combat tree, pacify affects force and tech attacks too. Damage reduction while cc'd would be nice as well.

 

Thanks for posting!

Edited November 13, 2013 by babygotmoreback

[Sappharan]

I actually feel like Combat/Carnage plays about perfectly in WZs. Even when we get CC'd after popping Gore, we can refresh pretty fast via Slaughter. The only thing that really hurts is Ravage. Getting CC'd during a Ravage is just brutal, as that ability makes up a lot of our burst.

 

Rather than bumping our defenses up, which I believe are at the perfect spot for how this class plays (and should be the benchmark that Rage/Focus specs are brought to), I wouldn't mind seeing either:

 

A) Slaughter also refreshing Ravage, so when we do get that CC to hurt our dps, we can quickly recover, or

 

B) Get the ability to turn Force Choke/Stasis into an actual 4 second stun. That way, when we want to turn very bursty, we could hit with a stun then pop Gore/Precision Strike, and go nuts.

 

"A" seems like the much fairer alteration, as I feel our class's defensive abilities are based around the fact that we are the only class without a 4 second hard stun. Now, if Guarded by the Force/Undying Rage were changed so that we couldn't heal with it up, even by medpac, then "B" becomes a more balanced option. (As an aside, I know a lot of people think we shouldn't be able to heal while GbtF/UR is up, but it has one big flaw to it in that we can still be CC'd with it up; so if it changes to block healing, too, Sentinels/Marauders really lost their virtual stun in 1v1 situations, and that hp cost on it seems REALLY excessive).

 

 

In addition to being the ONLY class without a hard stun, we're also the only melee without full stealth or heavy armor. Our passive defenses are weak. People complain about Force Camouflage, but it only lasts 4 seconds (up to 6 with Watchman) and it has already been nerfed once. Elsewhere I already laid out how the defensive cooldowns work for people who complain, but they seem to assume that our durability just happens.

 

It is very easy to waste Rebuke--six seconds of no one attacking you and it's gone. Further, Rebuke is not on the Sentinel a MINIMUM of 30 seconds of every minute. Saber Ward is great--with a very long cooldown. Force Camouflage lasts only four seconds and is down for 45 seconds. GbtF takes half of our remaining life and only lasts four seconds. What makes it a real kick to the teeth is that, and this is from Bioware, they are nerfing it because of Focus and because of the synergy with healers. I read that to mean that on our own we're balanced--but add a healer to the mix and people complain. Twice this evening ability lag prevented me from hitting GbtF.

 

I think we should ask for better passive defenses and just get rid of GbtF if this nerf hits. It's absurdly crippling and serves only to appease the whiners about a SPEC that will STILL be the strongest of the three.

Edited November 13, 2013 by Sappharan

[Ashuranrx]

The only thing I think that needs changing is lower the focus/rage cost of Crippling Throw. Sniper and Marauder are the only two classes that have heal debuff. Both abilities do crap damage, but Sniper's version adds armor debuff and costs only 10 energy. By the same ratio, Marauder's version should only cost 1 rage/focus. Edited November 13, 2013 by Ashuranrx

[babygotmoreback]

The only thing I think that needs changing is lower the focus/rage cost of Crippling Throw. Sniper and Marauder are the only two classes that have heal debuff. Both abilities do crap damage, but Sniper's version adds armor debuff and costs only 10 energy. By the same ratio, Marauder's version should only cost 1 rage/focus.

 

I definitely wouldn't mind seeing a focus reduction on crippling throw, but this will in no way be equivalent to the sniper heal debuff. Firstly, as you mentioned, theirs also gives an armor debuff. Additionally, the sniper debuff does not have a cooldown and crippling throw has a 12 second cooldown. I like this ability, but I still think this tree needs something to boost survivability a bit.

 

Thanks so much for posting!

[PapaSmur]

I'm currently levelling a sentinel, and from the looks of it, melee have a really rough time.

So much cc to contend with, would an ability much like the Bounty Hunters 'Hydraulic Overide' Make Combat Sent/Marauders too OP?

[AngusFTW]

I'm currently levelling a sentinel, and from the looks of it, melee have a really rough time.

So much cc to contend with, would an ability much like the Bounty Hunters 'Hydraulic Overide' Make Combat Sent/Marauders too OP?

Well Considering hydraulics only breaks roots/slows, Camo already does that for combat/carnage and it also makes us stealth so everyone drops your target :p Obliterate/Zealous Leap in focus/rage also breaks slows/roots. Only tree that hasn't got any utility like that is watchman.

Sent/Mara Doesn't really come into its own until higher level tbh.

Edited November 18, 2013 by AngusFTW

[HolyFrogx]

From a purely lore perspective, Ataru-style combat is all about using the entire body to both attack and evade.

 

What about some sort of dodge mechanic built into the spec somewhere?

 

Fitting into the lore and play style, I has always considered root immunity to be the single biggest change needed for combat spec.

 

It fulfills all of the needs mentioned, and does not op the spec. Happy for root immunity to be in a window - precision grants root immunity for its duration?