Saber wielders game mechanics too punishing.

[Bowenator]

Lv33 guarian, still don't have saber throw and my friend who has lv33 sentinel, does have it, so I guess guardian has to live with out it.

 

Skimming the posts I actually assumed you were complaining about knockbacks at endgame. Many classes play fairly differently at endgame. You don't even have an AoE taunt until level 30 as a tank. It doesn't make sense to me to complain about the tools a class has until you've tried them all.

 

Also, sentinels do not get saber throw until level 51. He may have dispatch/vicious throw which is still a short range melee attack and conditional.

 

If honest, at lv33 I'm already so fed up, I even don't want try. Vanguard works fine for me, thanks to ranged tanking.

 

In SWTOR, there is no such thing as an effective "ranged tank." Yes, VGs/PTs have some abilities that work at 30m, but you will not effectively hold aggro at that range against good players. Whenever I see a PT tank standing back ranging targets while I accrue all the aggro, I just have to shake my head.

[Chaffery]

No my dear Jawa, during leveling, you got it wrong.

 

And apparently vanguard is, more efficient than guardian.

But let's leave it now, I hope that kung-fu masters have time come do some proper tanking in FP's.

 

Just checked trainer, no saber throw, apparently some advisor's don't even know guardian class.

Edited November 4, 2013 by Chaffery

[Bowenator]

No my dear Jawa, during leveling, you got it wrong.

 

And apparently vanguard is, more efficient than guardian.

 

Citation needed

[Chaffery]

Citation needed

OK, vanguard works better for me. Happy?

If seriously, I simply can not be arsed do as Bioware thinks and I don't care what they think.

Only what I know is that their "being as intended" costing subscribers.

If they want guardians be with 0 second reaction, fine buy me. I just don't play class, that's it.

And who wants play guardian, enjoy knock back spams.

Edited November 4, 2013 by Chaffery

[WestXv]

In all of my experiences if the 3 tank acs are of equal gear level the juggernaut/guardian tanks are preferable.

[Bowenator]

OK, vanguard works better for me. Happy?

 

Yes, carry on.

[Chaffery]

Now, I will say knockbacks are annoying and quite frankly, they are really overdone. I'd rather the devs take some of the knockback abilities and change them to stuns and interrupts. Or perhaps they can come up with other mechanics that are more creative. My first thought heading into a mob / boss fight for a new operation should not be "Where are the solid walls / pillars / etc, so that I don't get knocked around".

 

Only person who knows class.

I'm doing same, looking for solid objects or getting my angle so that I would get knocked to door, which opens and some trash starts poring out, so I could spam Force Sweep. At least something useful.

Edited November 4, 2013 by Chaffery

[Rasen]

We get it! Vanguard is more appealing to you than Guardians. So why get so passive aggressive about it? You are not comfortable with the gameplay associated with Guardians, but find Vanguards to be more appealing. That's good that you found your niche. But going on with this passive aggressive behavior and unwillingness to really listen to those offering input threatens to derail what could be a decent discussion.

 

My second character which immediately became my main is a Sith Juggernaut. Excellent tanking class even when we had aggro issues pre 2.0. Knockbacks were hardly significant. You just charge back into combat and if not that use force scream/blade storm. It doesn't have a huge range, but it has better range than anything else you got that level. I don't sympathize with the dislike of knockbacks. They can be annoying, but in no way am I detracted from my fun. If I was allowed to attack uninterrupted nothing would stand a chance. Same as if a ranged were allowed to cast uninterrupted.

[Chaffery]

We get it! Vanguard is more appealing to you than Guardians. So why get so passive aggressive about it? You are not comfortable with the gameplay associated with Guardians, but find Vanguards to be more appealing. That's good that you found your niche. But going on with this passive aggressive behavior and unwillingness to really listen to those offering input threatens to derail what could be a decent discussion.

 

My second character which immediately became my main is a Sith Juggernaut. Excellent tanking class even when we had aggro issues pre 2.0. Knockbacks were hardly significant. You just charge back into combat and if not that use force scream/blade storm. It doesn't have a huge range, but it has better range than anything else you got that level. I don't sympathize with the dislike of knockbacks. They can be annoying, but in no way am I detracted from my fun. If I was allowed to attack uninterrupted nothing would stand a chance. Same as if a ranged were allowed to cast uninterrupted.

You have no idea what you talking about. When you last time tried tank: Mandalorian Raiders, Cadeimu or Taral V?

In those FP's many silver trash mobs knock you around like kitchen towel.

 

I'll put it this way, current mechanics is acceptable only buy few peoples, hence finding party with tank is so easy.

 

Buy the way, before guardian I leveled up 3 healers in FP's (commando, scoundrel and sage) and I had no problems at all. Sometimes fights got messy but as no one died, all is fine.

 

But look at the larger picture, if game gets too hard, peoples start leaving or stop playing certain class. No?

So currently in our server is tons of DPS, some healers and very few Tanks. And I mean peoples who using FP's for leveling. Queueing for DPS normally is 3 hours, for 1 run. While I get in pretty fast.

So what ever you accepted and think it is fun, quite many disagree with you.

Edited November 4, 2013 by Chaffery

[Sorei]

I've tanked the level 55 HMs on my Juggernaut and never felt punished at all. Yes, knockbacks can be annoying and they shouldn't overdo it with knockbacks, but personally, I think it's not as bad as you present it to be. My Assassin just shoots lightning at the turrets in Cademinu SM, so he doesn't get knocked back (and neither do the mDPS).

On my Juggernaut I have to think before pulling. Of all my tanking classes (and yes, I have all three of them, even though I have the most experience on my Juggernaut) I prefer my Juggernaut.

 

Now, Black Hole H4 is a totally different story but luckily it's only a quick H4 (besides, everyone who has aggro gets pushed around a lot).

[theUndead]

I'd go even further and say that threat generation needs to be worked on. I think the devs missed an opportunity when they placed too much weight on the taunt mechanic. In most mmo's, taunt and it's AoE variant are supposed to be "Oh crap" buttons. What I would like to see is a bump in the threat of all abilities, and have guard not reduce the threat of the target by 25%, but GIVE that threat to the tank. This way, the DPS is helping the tank hold aggro on a mob.

 

As for the guardian tank, they can do some pretty decent damage with master strike, guardian strike. But the issue is multi-target threat, which can be pretty tough when cyclone slash eats up so much resources.

 

Agreed. But didn't the devs recently buff guardians thread generation? I know that in our guild or two resident guardian tanks who raid say that single target is ok for threat generation but multi target is still an issue.

[Hyfy]

Maybe if you could give some examples of the mobs you're referring to, we can give you some advice on how to deal with them.

 

I think what he's referring to is mobs like the heavy droids in Section X for example. The ones where you would say force leap to the mob, attempt to get an ability off, maybe two and immediately knocked back. Granted there are ways to mitigate those knock backs through abilities and points in the right place on skill trees. To an extent I can agree with the OP though. In some areas there can be an inordinate amount of mobs that will play a game of bags with your body, in some cases 2 or 3 of them in the same group of mobs.

[slafko]

Gotta say i disagree with this.

 

Having a Jedi Guardian, Jedi Shadow, Jedi Sentinel, and the other classes(and their imp counterparts) i don't find the game mechanics overly punishing towards melee. Knockbacks are part of most MMOs as far as mechanics go, and melee have to deal with this.

 

The main problem with knockbacks and knockdowns is the fact that we, the players, cannot reciprocitate in kind. We will get knocked back, slammed to the floor and tossed around like rag dolls while at the same time being completely unable to KB and KD the mob that's doing that to us. At the current state of the game every Harry, Dick and Tom can knockback a Jedi master while being impervious to knockbacks themselves. I get that select flashpoint and operations bosses need this immunity to make things a bit harder but immunity to knockbacks on every single strong and higher mob? Come on, that's just bad design and lack of imagination.

 

Also, the game needs less uninterruptable casts. Standing there waiting to get hit in the face by the inevitable boss channel skill is... Boring. Saddening. Soul crushing.

 

I'm not even going to describe how soloing Kavo Thran looks like.

Edited November 5, 2013 by slafko

[Ancaglon]

Most such mobs don't do an instant knockback, it's channelled -- and a Guardian should have plenty of time to interrupt it, unless you get stuck with tunnel vision and/or are determined to finish Master Strike before interrupting.

 

Generally, however, positioning is a big part of the solution, place yourself so you get knocked back a short way into a wall or other obstruction and you can often continue your tanking without having to move back.

[GreenLantern]

You have no idea how many encounters punish vanguard for using hold the line. Getting knocked back in PvE is sometimes necessary to survival. Also, don't attempt to estimate the value of a class at the highest tier when your sample size is the low tier.

 

Also, having superior positioning to a mob that can't think for itself and strategize is a solid tactic. If you are getting knocked, put your back to a wall to minimize your downtime.

Edited November 5, 2013 by GreenLantern

[snakebam]

Those droids you have problems with OP are easy to deal with if you just run up to them and save force leap to recover from the knock back. Once you'r back taunt and tank as usual. If the mob lives long enough to push you again you'r jump should be available again but even if its not you still have aggro and can just run back.

 

Low threat is imo the no1 reason why we have so few tanks. You have to be 100% on top of you'r game all the time to barely hold the attention of you'r target and the shortest brake in you'r rotation means aggro loss. Not to mention multiple targets. It can be done ofc but most players just lay back, hit that aoe and than flame the "noob" tank for loosing aggro.

[Vodamin]

I don't play force characters, so pardon my ignorance. Which advanced class or talent specializations allows the melee force users to force leap or teleport back to melee range, or pull the enemy back in range?

 

I wont forgive your ignorance. Vanguards have leap.

[Vodamin]

I do agree that they need to improve threat generation mechanics. Either that.. or they did it on purpose to keep tanks on their toes and the rest of the group as well.

 

I simultaneously love and hate this part of the tanking.

[CommanderKeeva]

If anything, ranged casters are punished the most in the game (e.g. Sages/Sorcs and Commandos/Mercs) because they completely lack interrupt protection of any kind. Every push, pull, knockback, stun, mezz and interrupt will cancel casting on said classes. In some instances, mobs have so many movement and control impairing abilities that they can completely shut down casters.

 

This is most evident on Oricon, where virtually every single mob has some ability that can interrupt a caster and some have 2-3. If anything, anti-casting mechanics are punishing in this game. As such, try doing the Oricon dailies with a melee and then a ranged character and see which one goes faster.

Edited November 5, 2013 by CommanderKeeva

[slafko]

Generally, however, positioning is a big part of the solution, place yourself so you get knocked back a short way into a wall or other obstruction and you can often continue your tanking without having to move back.

 

The solution to not getting kicked back is not "get kicked back for less".

[slafko]

If anything, ranged casters are punished the most in the game (e.g. Sages/Sorcs and Commandos/Mercs) because they completely lack interrupt protection of any kind. Every push, pull, knockback, stun, mezz and interrupt will cancel casting on said classes. In some instances, mobs have so many movement and control impairing abilities that they can completely shut down casters.

 

This is most evident on Oricon, where virtually every single mob has some ability that can interrupt a caster and some have 2-3. If anything, anti-casting mechanics are punishing in this game. As such, try doing the Oricon dailies with a melee and then a ranged character and see which one goes faster.

 

The problem with pressure on casters in that there's too much of it, it's the fact that casters cannot do anything about it. But that boils down the game engine, mechanics and design, so not much use in crying. Just daydreaming of what could have been.

[Chaffery]

Like I mentioned before, I have been healing up to Colicoid wars all FP's and keeping team mates alive is not a problem with 3 healer classes. And I see that most knock backs are pretty pointless, just to annoy hell out of melee.

 

To me it looks like because someone in Austin thinks that Master Strike (or any other channelled high damage skill) is "sooooo" good skill, it must be interrupted buy any means. I'm using Master Strike only when I'm certain that I can finish channelling.

 

Very poor thinking and very short sighted design. Mob goes down any way, 5 seconds sooner or later, 1-2 knock backs mean nothing. Knock backs are just ridiculously pointless. With Bosses knock backs I agree but every silver and gold, come on. Besides from my experience gold mobs have immunity for many interrupts.

 

It is just current generation game devs, they seriously lack creativity and same time too stubborn listen players.

So instead fun game mechanics, they mostly come up with "annoying as hell" game mechanics. Look what is going on, tons of MMO's any only few with high population.

 

Haha, I just did remember. Prior patch 2.0 I tanked Taris world boss with vanguard. You know, my vanguard was more in air than on ground. It really looked like WB tried turn my vanguard in to Taris artificial satellite. Very "creative" design.

 

Hey BW Austin, sill surprised why WoW is been dominating 3'rd person type MMO market for 9 years? You can not beat the best with current lousy design. WoW killer, yeah right, wishful thinking...

 

Thanks every one for input. Like I said, guardian to lv51 and that's it, let it collect dust till something happens with melee mechanics. I refuse take part in Bioware's being tossed around and running back mini games. Vanguard seems to having big advantage, buy pulling boss near solid object, being tossed around less and getting in to range faster.

Edited November 5, 2013 by Chaffery

[Marb]

The abundance of mixed pulls with mobs using knockback's and snares can make it a nightmare for a new tank. Unfortunately these encounters require the tank to have prerequisite knowledge to counter them, and play in a way that may not be intuitive, such as face-pulling a pack of mobs, eating the knockback and then using your gap closer. An unexpected knockback and snare will render a tank completely useless on the pull, leaving the healer vulnerable to an alpha strike.

 

Knockbacks and snares shouldn't be challenges new tanks should have to face, not when they are learning how to engage targets and hold threat IMO. It's an issue with the difficulty curve for tanking, these sorts of mechanics should be telegraphed with cast times or something (like the droids in mando raiders), at least on the lower level group content. That would train low level tanks to get used to using their interrupt, leaving the insta knockback+snare recovery tactics for higher level content.

 

Even insta knockbacks being restricted to gold star mobs would be acceptable. Packs of silvers and in some cases, normals, should not have cc effects in the abundance that they do currently. Trash sucks more then usual in this game.

Edited November 5, 2013 by Marb

[Drandorion]

The solution to not getting kicked back is not "get kicked back for less".

 

Your logic defies the casual l2p response many give in regards to this issue.

 

I semi retired my Juggernaut because being thrown around like a ragdoll is not, imho, fun. Mostly this is from an initial engagement standpoint. If I say force leapt into a fight like a Bauws because I was under the mistaken impression I was an unstoppable force of rage, I would be immediately put in my place by anything with a knockback as I was thrown out of melee range.

 

Apparently the correct way to handle these situations is to trundle up like a chump, get knocked back, then force leap into the fight. I find this breaks the flow of combat for no good reason. Especially since vengeance spec juggernauts get Unstoppable which negates this problem, but Immortal (tank) spec juggs can't use this.

 

Approaching this same situation from the standpoint of a vanguard and he can just hold the line then storm into combat and not be immediately knocked away.

 

After the fight gets going knockback becomes a non issue since most enemy knockback has a longer timer than player gap closers. It's that initial entry into combat that bothers me. Either trundle into combat like a chump or don't play a juggernaut.

[g_land]

I award you a 7/10