Didn't Malak remember?

[Trentest]

Just something that was on my mind.

 

Revan and Malak found the Emperor in deep space, who turned them to the dark side and sent them back to claim the Star Forge. They eventually broke free of his control, and founded their own Empire.

 

When Revan was captured, his memories were wiped. He had no knowledge of what he had found in Deep Space, but Malak's memories were always intact.

 

So surely Malak knew, up until his death, that The Empire still existed? Why didn't he ever mention this during Kotor? Surely it would have been a much greater concern for him than just conquest.

[Selenial]

Just something that was on my mind.

 

Revan and Malak found the Emperor in deep space, who turned them to the dark side and sent them back to claim the Star Forge. They eventually broke free of his control, and founded their own Empire.

 

When Revan was captured, his memories were wiped. He had no knowledge of what he had found in Deep Space, but Malak's memories were always intact.

 

So surely Malak knew, up until his death, that The Empire still existed? Why didn't he ever mention this during Kotor? Surely it would have been a much greater concern for him than just conquest.

 

The entire reason he turned on the republic, fell to the darkside etc Was so he could strengthen an Empire, allowing him to fight off the true Sith.

 

But that was more Revan's goal, Malak lost sight of the goal, and just wanted to rule.

[Quickpaw]

Plus retcons.

[Darth_Wicked]

Mandalore the Ultimate, in the end, was supposedly a mere puppet under the Emperor's control, so I guess it's not that much of a stretch to assume that Malak was in a similar position.

 

What I was never truly able to understand, is the fact that Canderous says to Revan that the Sith had challenged the mandalorians to test their might against the Republic, despite the fact there was NO mention whatsoever of the True Sith in the original KoTOR.

[jarshr]

its because they wrote the story for swtor years after kotor and tried to make it work. little details like this just get ignored.

[DarthDymond]

its because they wrote the story for swtor years after kotor and tried to make it work. little details like this just get ignored.

This, of course, is the real-world reason for it. However, as with most Star Wars fiction they've actually done a fair job of giving an in-universe reason as well:

 

The Emperor knew that one of his greatest advantages against the Republic was that they had no idea he, or his Empire, existed - allowing him to build up his forces and strike only when he was ready.

When Revan and Malak learned of his existence and confronted him, he was presented with an opportunity to continue weakening the Republic (and perhaps even outright conquer it) without ever giving up this advantage of secrecy.

 

He used his mind-control whammy on Revan and Malak and sent them both back into Republic space with a mental command to conquer the Republic, but not to reveal the (True) Sith Empire's existence - which is why they formed their own Sith Empire out of Republic defectors and fallen Jedi.

Revan wasn't able to completely throw off the Emperor's mental control, but thanks to being a Mary Sue... er, I mean, thanks to his strong connection to the Force, he was able to resist it enough that his goal became "conquer the Republic in order to prepare it for war with the True Sith", instead of "conquer the Republic and hand it over to the Emperor with a bow on top".

 

I don't think they ever made it really clear whether Malak would ultimately have tried to keep Republic space for himself, or whether he would have given it over to the Emperor, but it is clear that the Emperor's mental command to keep the True Sith Empire a secret from the Republic was still in place, providing a nice in-universe reason why it never comes up in KotOR.

[Darth_Wicked]

This, of course, is the real-world reason for it. However, as with most Star Wars fiction they've actually done a fair job of giving an in-universe reason as well:

 

The Emperor knew that one of his greatest advantages against the Republic was that they had no idea he, or his Empire, existed - allowing him to build up his forces and strike only when he was ready.

When Revan and Malak learned of his existence and confronted him, he was presented with an opportunity to continue weakening the Republic (and perhaps even outright conquer it) without ever giving up this advantage of secrecy.

 

He used his mind-control whammy on Revan and Malak and sent them both back into Republic space with a mental command to conquer the Republic, but not to reveal the (True) Sith Empire's existence - which is why they formed their own Sith Empire out of Republic defectors and fallen Jedi.

Revan wasn't able to completely throw off the Emperor's mental control, but thanks to being a Mary Sue... er, I mean, thanks to his strong connection to the Force, he was able to resist it enough that his goal became "conquer the Republic in order to prepare it for war with the True Sith", instead of "conquer the Republic and hand it over to the Emperor with a bow on top".

 

I don't think they ever made it really clear whether Malak would ultimately have tried to keep Republic space for himself, or whether he would have given it over to the Emperor, but it is clear that the Emperor's mental command to keep the True Sith Empire a secret from the Republic was still in place, providing a nice in-universe reason why it never comes up in KotOR.

 

Issue being, as I mentioned already(!), that it DOES come up, since Canderous mentions to Revan that it was the Sith who issued a challenge to the mandalorians, so they would attack the Republic.

 

Said challenge took place way before(!!!) both Revan and Malak reintroduced themselves to the Galaxy as Sith Lords. Hell, it took place even before Revan challenged the Jedi Council and chose to face the mandalorians head-on.

 

Of course, this kinda reinforces the story presented in the Revan novel, where it is said that Mandalore the Ultimate was nothing more than a puppet but contradicts a lot of other stuff, like Canderous - as Mandalore the Preserver - showing sorrow for the fact that mandalorians were pawns during the Mandalorian Wars and the fact everyone was STILL oblivious of the existence of the True Sith Empire in KoTOR.

Edited November 3, 2013 by Darth_Wicked

[DarthDymond]

Issue being, as I mentioned already(!), that it DOES come up, since Canderous mentions to Revan that it was the Sith who issued a challenge to the mandalorians, so they would attack the Republic.

 

Said challenge took place way before(!!!) both Revan and Malak reintroduced themselves to the Galaxy as Sith Lords. Hell, it took place even before Revan challenged the Jedi Council and chose to face the mandalorians head-on.

 

Of course, this kinda reinforces the story presented in the Revan novel, where it is said that Mandalore the Ultimate was nothing more than a puppet but contradicts a lot of other stuff, like Canderous - as Mandalore the Preserver - showing sorrow for the fact that mandalorians were pawns during the Mandalorian Wars and the fact everyone was STILL oblivious of the existence of the True Sith Empire in KoTOR.

 

Are you talking about a quote from KotOR or from the Revan novel?

 

The thing is there are at least 3 completely separate Sith groups (sometimes each of them called "The Sith Empire") involved in major wars against the Republic around the KotOR/TOR era.

 

If the line you're talking about is from KotOR, then I'm 99% sure that Canderous was talking about the Brotherhood of the Sith - Exar Kun's Sith forces during the Great Sith War, a group completely separate both from the True Sith and from Revan's Sith Empire.

 

The Mandalorians were a major part of Exar Kun's forces and I'm pretty sure in KotOR they say that one of the reason the Mandalorian Wars happened is that the Great Sith War, where the Brotherhood of the Sith directed the Mandalorians into war against the Republic, had whet the Mando's appetite for war.

Edited November 3, 2013 by DarthDymond

[Darth_Wicked]

Are you talking about a quote from KotOR or from the Revan novel?

 

The thing is there are at least 3 completely separate Sith groups (sometimes each of them called "The Sith Empire") involved in major wars against the Republic around the KotOR/TOR era.

 

If the line you're talking about is from KotOR, then I'm 99% sure that Canderous was talking about the Brotherhood of the Sith - Exar Kun's Sith forces during the Great Sith War, a group completely separate both from the True Sith and from Revan's Sith Empire.

 

The Mandalorians were a major part of Exar Kun's forces and I'm pretty sure in KotOR they say that one of the reason the Mandalorian Wars happened is that the Great Sith War, where the Brotherhood of the Sith directed the Mandalorians into war against the Republic, had whet the Mando's appetite for war.

 

KoTOR.

 

And the Exar Kun War is never actually mentioned by Canderous... Only by Jolee if memory serves me right, so it's fairly obvious he's refering to the Mandalorian Wars.

 

Again, it's a major oversight IMO but it's there nonetheless. I'm trying to find a video on youtube that covers it, to put it in context but to no one goes for that question.

[Thylbanus]

Ok, I think I should chime in here. First off, Revan and Malak don't remember because the Emperor wiped their memories just like the Jedi did when they tried to reprogram Revan. The reason Revan remembered was the same reason the Jedi reprogramming didn't work. He was just too strong. So I'll start from the beginning, and no, there actually was no retcon for this. This was actually already planned and was going to be part of the storyline for KOTOR III.

 

Revan and Malak started their decent toward the Darkside during their training. It was Revan's insatiable drive that led him to his recklessness and to embrace the Darkside. Malak (Alek originally) was just a toady. A weak-willed sycophant of Revan's. He was enthralled to Revan's will and couldn't leave anymore than a cultist and followed Revan's every command with almost the same sort of slavish devotion. Even though Alek would try to protest or give his opinion, it was totally subsumed by the will of his master. Only during his service during the Mandalorian Wars (it has remained ambiguous as to which Sith group initiated contact with the Mandalorians) did his past come to resonate within him and start to plant the seed of treachery to betray Revan.

 

It was during the final moments of he Mandalorian Wars at Malachor V did they finally fall from the Light. At this point, they became Dark Jedi and head into the Unknown Regions "hunting down the remaining Mandalorians". In reality, they discovered Dromund Kaas, guided there by the subliminal influences of the Emperor through the Force. While there they found the Sith Empire alive and well and attempted a covert attack against the Emperor. This, as you can guess, didn't go well and they were made Sith, programmed with subliminal mental triggers and sent back to Republic space to search for the Star Forge and attack the Republic.

 

During their time on Lehon, it is never openly stated, but it may have been some influence of the Temple of the Ancients or something in the Star Forge itself that allowed Revan and Malak to break the will of the Emperor, but perhaps due to the mental conditioning of the Emperor made them partial amnesiacs. They believed the commands of the Emperor to be their own will and set out to conquer the Republic. So at that time, they no longer had any recollection of the Sith Empire of Dromund Kaas or the Emperor. I believe that while Revan couldn't quite remember all of it, he did remember the threat that the Emperor represented. He just needed Malak to believe that he was going along with the plan, not knowing that Malak's programming had kicked in and his own delusions of grandeur had taken over instead. This is what lead to his eventual betrayal of Revan and the story we know.