Darth Sidious the Ancient Historian

[StarMagus]

He destroyed the Jedi Order (an Order which, at this point, had become so powerful that straight up war between Sith and Jedi would have easily fallen in their favor, thus making destroying them from the inside the only way to do it) and the Republic. No other Sith has done that. Not Naga Sadow, Exar Kun, or Vitiate.

 

Unlike all those who came before him, Darth Sidious accomplished every single goal of the Sith Order. He destroyed the Jedi, destroyed the Republic, achieved immortality, and completely mastered the dark side.

 

Compared to him, all other Sith rulers are simply pale imitations of his might.

 

Everyone goes on about how his rule only lasted a few decades, yet they conveniently forget what he actually did before forming the Empire. Not only that, but his Empire was a Galactic Empire. All other Sith Empires that came before him did not rule the galaxy, only small quarters of the galaxy, at best half of the galaxy.

 

He also is the only Sith Lord that LOST an entire Galactic Empire. He also lost not 1 but 2 death stars to a bunch of plucky teens/early 20 somethings. He saw the Jedi Order reform under his watch.

 

I could buy him getting credit for being a master political creature and probably one of the best if not the best Sith Politicians. He outmaneuvered everybody ((who acted pretty stupidly)) in Episodes 1-3.

 

As for killing 10,000 Jedi. From a leader point of view and his political savy, yes. From a Powerful Sith point of view, he only killed the 4-5 guys who came to arrest him with Mace Windu. Vader and the Clone Armies killed everybody else. The Death of the Jedi are because of his political skill, not because of his power as a Sith.

 

For power, we only see him use his power a few times.

 

1. Shocking Luke and then being unable to do anything to stop somebody from tossing him down a shaft, or even use his Force powers like Anakin did in Episode 2 when he's jumping off of flying speeders moving at rapid speed and plummeting down hundreds of feet to land on other moving speeders. Really? The most Powerful Sith ever can't duplicate a feat that a PADAWAN does?

 

2. Killing off the sub Jedi with Mace Windu, only to get beaten so badly by Mace that his own lightening burns and mutilates his face.

 

3. Fighting Yoda to a Draw, which we saw Dooku fight Yoda in the previous movie and Yoda wasn't able to stop him even after he was in a battle with both Anakin as a Padawan and Knight/Master? Obi-wan. Yet by the 3rd movie full fledged Jedi Anakin mops the floor with Dooku and executes him, so... how powerful was he?

Edited November 1, 2013 by StarMagus

[Aurbere]

He also is the only Sith Lord that LOST an entire Galactic Empire. He also lost not 1 but 2 death stars to a bunch of plucky teens/early 20 somethings. He saw the Jedi Order reform under his watch.

 

Sidious was still the only Sith Lord to have a Galactic Empire, so still better than the others. You realize that Sidious isn't the only one to lose superweapons, right? Exar Kun lost the Dark Reaper, Malak lost the Star Forge, Vitiate lost a ton of superweapons. And the Death Stars weren't even his only superweapons.

 

Also, the Jedi Order did not reform while Sidious was still alive.

 

For power, we only see him use his power a few times.

 

1. Shocking Luke and then being unable to do anything to stop somebody from tossing him down a shaft, or even use his Force powers like Anakin did in Episode 2 when he's jumping off of flying speeders moving at rapid speed and plummeting down hundreds of feet to land on other moving speeders. Really? The most Powerful Sith ever can't duplicate a feat that a PADAWAN does?

 

2. Killing off the sub Jedi with Mace Windu, only to get beaten so badly by Mace that his own lightening burns and mutilates his face.

 

3. Fighting Yoda to a Draw, which we saw Dooku fight Yoda in the previous movie and Yoda wasn't able to stop him even after he was in a battle with both Anakin as a Padawan and Knight/Master? Obi-wan. Yet by the 3rd movie full fledged Jedi Anakin mops the floor with Dooku and executes him, so... how powerful was he?

 

1. Falling down a reactor shaft is far, far different from falling through a city scape.

 

2. The three Jedi who accomplished Mace Windu were three of the Order's finest blademasters. Mace Windu himself was widely considered to be one of the best duelists in the Order's history.

 

About Sidious' face. First understand that his Force lightning was bending Mace Windu's lightsaber, then understand that it was Mace Windu's Vaapad defense that reflected the lightning. Second, it is canon that it was not Sidious' face that was mutilated, it was a Sith spell being 'dispelled.'

 

3. Sidious defeated Yoda. This is plainly stated in the ROTS novel.

[StarMagus]

1. Falling down a reactor shaft is far, far different from falling through a city scape.

 

Totally agree, there are less things flying about that can hit you, and you have surfaces all around you to grab on to. It should be easier to do something about it.

 

3. Sidious defeated Yoda. This is plainly stated in the ROTS novel.

 

Not shown in the movie however. In the movie it's basically a draw and Yoda retreats. Of course at the time Yoda was over 800 years old and would die 23 or years later from old age. So it's sort of like an 80 year old man who has less than 3 years left to live holding their own in a fight with somebody... not something I would hang my hat on as proof I was the greatest ever.

Edited November 1, 2013 by StarMagus

[Stinghen]

He also is the only Sith Lord that LOST an entire Galactic Empire. He also lost not 1 but 2 death stars to a bunch of plucky teens/early 20 somethings. He saw the Jedi Order reform under his watch.

 

The previous Sith Lords did not lose their respective, non-galactic empires? Yeah, they did, so they all failed in the end. At least Sidious made his empire a galactic one, and again, wiped out the Jedi Order, personally defeating many of its leading members. It doesn't matter that he acted through proxies, that it was the clones that actually did it. It matters that he was the one that made their destruction a reality by the infamous "Order 66" and the Great Jedi Purge that followed.

 

As for killing 10,000 Jedi. From a leader point of view and his political savy, yes. From a Powerful Sith point of view, he only killed the 4-5 guys who came to arrest him with Mace Windu. Vader and the Clone Armies killed everybody else. The Death of the Jedi are because of his political skill, not because of his power as a Sith.

 

He faced four Jedi Council members, listed below:

 

Mace Windu, second greatest lightsaber duelist in the Jedi Order.

Kit Fisto, recognised a master of the Shii Cho style.

Agen Kolar, considered by the Jedi Council one of the few duelists who could face a Sith Lord like Sidious.

Saessee Tiin, the only fighter who was not truly renowned for his skills as a swordsman, was still a capable duelist.

 

All in all, four Jedi Masters, three of whom were recognised master duelists amongst the finest in the entire Order, would certainly ******** Darth Sidious if he were as weak as you think he is. Instead, what happened was the Kolar and Tiin fell in the first two blows, and Fisto soon thereafter. Now Sidious faced Windu alone, but he had all the interests in losing this battle, as he showed clearly when losing the battle gained him the apprentice he was looking for. So his losing the battle to Windu is a credit to his courage to risk all his achievements to date in order to accomplish the greater goal.

 

Moreover, I never said he personally killed 10000 Jedi. But he masterminded their demise, and taught the galaxy to hate them. And he killed his share of Jedi in his day, the lesser of which were not the four Council members in Episode III.

 

For power, we only see him use his power a few times.

 

A few times, true. But Darth Vader grabs his lightsaber a grand total of three or four times across the Original Trilogy. Those instances are enough to judge his abilities.

 

1. Shocking Luke and then being unable to do anything to stop somebody from tossing him down a shaft, or even use his Force powers like Anakin did in Episode 2 when he's jumping off of flying speeders moving at rapid speed and plummeting down hundreds of feet to land on other moving speeders. Really? The most Powerful Sith ever can't duplicate a feat that a PADAWAN does?

 

He did not expect Vader to double-cross him. Overconfidence was a fault of every great Sith Lord. But Sidious actually shocks Vader silly before he is hurled down face-first into the middle of the reactor shaft. And it pays to remember that he managed to prevent his soul from being sucked into Chaos, and retained his identity after his death, managing to return to life with the use of Transfer Essence.

 

2. Killing off the sub Jedi with Mace Windu, only to get beaten so badly by Mace that his own lightening burns and mutilates his face.

 

Sub-Jedi? Are you serious? Three of the greatest lightsaber duelists in the Jedi Order and you call them sub Jedi. Sub Jedi get to the council all the time, of course!.

 

3. Fighting Yoda to a Draw, which we saw Dooku fight Yoda in the previous movie and Yoda wasn't able to stop him even after he was in a battle with both Anakin as a Padawan and Knight/Master? Obi-wan. Yet by the 3rd movie full fledged Jedi Anakin mops the floor with Dooku and executes him, so... how powerful was he?

 

So you're theorising Yoda isn't that much of a duelist? Nice. You base your arguments on opinions that contradict LORE SOURCES. Yoda was the greatest duelist in the Order as a whole. He failed in defeating Sidious, and lost his lightsaber in the fight, and saw his last hope go down the drain, and Sidious rule the Empire for over twenty years afterwards.

 

Did you ever read the novelisation of RotS? Sidious played an active role in Dooku's defeat in the Invisible Hand. He backed Skywalker's abilities so he could defeat Dooku, and incited him to execute the Sith Lord.

 

Here's a list of Force powers Sidious was proved to be highly skilled at:

 

Force Storm (could destroy an entire world - he was the only Sith Lord to ever master that power, and he did it using his own personal power)

 

Force Stealth (he often conferred with Jedi from all walks, Padawans to Masters to Council members, and none of them could sense he was actually as powerful as he was, and even without Sith training he could shield his mind

from Darth Plagueis' probing).

 

Force Lightning (needless to develop any further)

 

Telekinesis (uplifting the entire Senate chamber against Yoda, and murdering his own family telekinetically - again without any formal Sith training)

 

Transfer Essence (one of the hardest powers to master, other Sith Lords sought to master it to any degree their entire lives, and never managed to: Freedon Nadd and Exar Kun were not the least of these)

 

Force Drain (he sapped the life force of all the inhabitants of Byss, slowly, without Vitiate's ungainly rituals)

 

Sith Alchemy (he wrote a damn treaty about the alchemical creation of monstrosities)

 

Asides from other powers that appear, but in other stances and without so much prominence, the Sith Lord reached both into the past and into his own time - Darth Tenebrous, upon his death, saw a vision of a dark shadow destroying all of his hopes - the shadow was Palpatine.

 

Palpatine also transcribed his consciousness into the Telos Holocron - only the greatest Sith Lords of all time ever did the same: Ajunta Pall, Naga Sadow, Darth Bane and Sidious himself.

 

So, Palpatine was, yes, at least among the three most powerful Dark Lords of the Sith. And yes, he may well have been the most powerful Sith Lord in existance. That's lore, there's not much to contest. He was created by Lucas to be the greatest of the Sith Lords, and the EU established him as such, regardless of whatever Darth Nihilus or Vitiate would rise up next.

[StarMagus]

Did you ever read the novelisation of RotS?

 

No, and I shouldn't have to read a novel that attempts to justify the story that was told in a plausible way. That's silly. The Novel Versions of Palp sound like he suffered from the same let's jack their abilities WAY up because herp derp Jedi/Sith/Force Users have to be 100 times stronger then they appear in the movies.

 

In the Movies... he doesn't come off as all that great.

 

Sub-Jedi? Are you serious? Three of the greatest lightsaber duelists in the Jedi Order and you call them sub Jedi. Sub Jedi get to the council all the time, of course!.

 

Sub Jedi in that they are subordinate to Mace, who was clearly calling the shots in that action.

 

He did not expect Vader to double-cross him. Overconfidence was a fault of every great Sith Lord. But Sidious actually shocks Vader silly before he is hurled down face-first into the middle of the reactor shaft. And it pays to remember that he managed to prevent his soul from being sucked into Chaos, and retained his identity after his death, managing to return to life with the use of Transfer Essence.

 

2 Things. For 6 seconds he lets Vader carry him around like a kid getting a piggy back ride. For somebody who is supposed to be some super killer Sith Lord who beats Jedi Masters with his weapon skill being shocked and surprised for that long is sad. Non-Force Users react faster to getting surprised than that. Luke was SHOCKED to death and he reacts faster than that. Again while being hurled down the shaft he manages to do nothing to stop himself other than continue to spark like some male beheaded praying mantis watching his body continue to perform after getting his head torn off.

 

Oh and I don't think he was hurled face first, he seemed to be falling with his face up watching vader as he screamed throwing off lightning instead of doing something useful with his time... being the great force master that is that can hurl the entire Senate at people.

 

All this said I think it's clear what the problem is.. I'm going off of movie Palps, and other people are going off of EU Palps. Which while they share the same name and parts of the same story, the abilities they have are VASTLY different. In that if Movie Palps had all the same powers that EU Palps had then the movies would have been really different because that version of Palps could have single handedly destroyed the Rebels with his Force powers.

 

Which is true for most of the Universe in that the Jedi we actually see in the movies get cut down by combined blaster fire, get surprised and shot in the back, not to mention by the original 3 movies they fight in a slow prodding style as if the light sabers are 10 pound weapons... but in the prequels everybody is jumping around and moving much faster reflecting the more advanced fighting and cgi available at the times but still even those bouncy cgi Jedi fall victim to robots and non-force users and even robots with breathing troubles.

 

Where as the novels and EU jacked the power level of Jedi up into crazy realms where you have them doing blur speed attacks right out of anime, and using the force to screw over star destroyers.

 

Force Stealth (he often conferred with Jedi from all walks, Padawans to Masters to Council members, and none of them could sense he was actually as powerful as he was, and even without Sith training he could shield his mind

from Darth Plagueis' probing).

 

The movies suggested this was more to the Dark Side of the Force in general making sensing of everything more difficult rather than the ability of Palps. The force was out of balance so much so the Jedi couldn't sense any traitors including Anakin's growing dark side, where Dooku was, or the entire world that went missing.

Edited November 1, 2013 by StarMagus

[Aurbere]

Totally agree, there are less things flying about that can hit you, and you have surfaces all around you to grab on to. It should be easier to do something about it.

 

And what exactly is he going to grab onto? I sure didn't see anything.

 

Not shown in the movie however. In the movie it's basically a draw and Yoda retreats. Of course at the time Yoda was over 800 years old and would die 23 or years later from old age. So it's sort of like an 80 year old man who has less than 3 years left to live holding their own in a fight with somebody... not something I would hang my hat on as proof I was the greatest ever.

 

Novelizations of the movies are on the same level as the movies themselves. The ROTS novel elaborates on the fight itself and what is going through Yoda's head. Basically, it says that Yoda had no chance of winning, that his only option was to live to fight another day.

 

And it also stated that Yoda was the most powerful Jedi the darkness (not Sidious, because Sidious is referred to as the shadow) had ever faced.

[StarMagus]

Novelizations of the movies are on the same level as the movies themselves.

 

No they aren't.. I mean look at the movies, where was all this the Darkness talking and stuff like that in the movies? Nowhere. I'm not saying all the novels are bad, the ones I read based on the original trilogy were pretty bad however, while the Thrawn Trilogy was probably the best.. just they are clearly different in both the stories they tell and the reasoning behind it and the powers that the various characters have.

 

Liking one over the other is fine, but they don't perfectly. If they did why would they even need to be around?

 

And what exactly is he going to grab onto? I sure didn't see anything.

 

Yoda who people are claiming was weaker can pick up an entire X-Wing, the pipes, the walls, the railing all can't be heavier than an X-wing.

 

Add on: Several Force users also had the ability to levitate and fly using the force.

 

The ancient Sith Lord Darth Thanaton was also able to use the Force to levitate, yet with better control to such a degree that he could indeed fly.[9] Ganner Rhysode once mentioned to Corran Horn that he could levitate them both for almost a kilometer—but that it would be highly energy-consuming

 

During the Second Great Galactic War, during a Kaggath on Corellia, Darth Thanaton used this ability to escape from the future Darth Nox.

 

Kaox Krul and Crian Maru levitated themselves above a lake while they fought during the Duel on Balowa.

 

Jedi Knight Dace Diath used levitation to carefully descend to the surface of Ossus after surviving the crash of his Star Saber XC-01 starfighter.

 

So why didn't he do that if he was indeed the most powerful sith lord ever?

Edited November 1, 2013 by StarMagus

[Aurbere]

No they aren't..

 

Yes they are. The novelizations of the movies are on the same level of canon as the movies: G-canon.

 

Yoda who people are claiming was weaker can pick up an entire X-Wing, the pipes, the walls, the railing all can't be heavier than an X-wing.

 

So what do you think he should have done in the seconds he had before his body was destroyed? Rip up the reactor shaft to survive?

[Aurbere]

Add on: Several Force users also had the ability to levitate and fly using the force.

 

 

 

 

 

So why didn't he do that if he was indeed the most powerful sith lord ever?

 

Maybe because he didn't have time?

 

Really, you're trying to demean his accomplishments based on his death. Powerful individuals have lame deaths. I mean, Vitiate literally walked into a lightsaber. I guess he isn't that great either.

[Stinghen]

No, and I shouldn't have to read a novel that attempts to justify the story that was told in a plausible way. That's silly. The Novel Versions of Palp sound like he suffered from the same let's jack their abilities WAY up because herp derp Jedi/Sith/Force Users have to be 100 times stronger then they appear in the movies.

 

In the Movies... he doesn't come off as all that great.

 

Your appraisal is heavily dependant on opinion and is therefore subjective. Nothing wrong with that, but saying "Sidious wasn't all that strong" also doesn't make sense, since he managed to stay in power for twenty years. And his contestants, that showed themselves early on, were quite powerful and dangerous. Yet he outplayed and defeated/destroyed all of them, with a great deal of personal power.

 

2 Things. For 6 seconds he lets Vader carry him around like a kid getting a piggy back ride. For somebody who is supposed to be some super killer Sith Lord who beats Jedi Masters with his weapon skill being shocked and surprised for that long is sad. Non-Force Users react faster to getting surprised than that. Luke was SHOCKED to death and he reacts faster than that. Again while being hurled down the shaft he manages to do nothing to stop himself other than continue to spark like some male beheaded praying mantis watching his body continue to perform after getting his head torn off.

 

Oh and I don't think he was hurled face first, he seemed to be falling with his face up watching vader as he screamed throwing off lightning instead of doing something useful with his time... being the great force master that is that can hurl the entire Senate at people.

 

Throwing off lightning that fried up Vader and sealed his rebellious apprentice's fate as well. And Vader was taller, younger and physically stronger than Palpatine, so it wasn't like Palpy was getting a piggyback ride from uncle Vader down the reactor shaft. It was more like a Sith Lord, with cybernetic limbs that granted him above average strength, grasping his scheming Sith Master in a steel grip and tossing him to his certain death down the reactor shaft, in a full-circle disclosure that has more than a bit of poetic justice to it.

 

All this said I think it's clear what the problem is.. I'm going off of movie Palps, and other people are going off of EU Palps. Which while they share the same name and parts of the same story, the abilities they have are VASTLY different. In that if Movie Palps had all the same powers that EU Palps had then the movies would have been really different because that version of Palps could have single handedly destroyed the Rebels with his Force powers.

 

Going off of movie Palp is all well and good, I personally do not condone much of the OP crap they make up about Sith Lords. But then, who are you comparing Sidious to, to state so blatantly he wasn't all that powerful? Maul was a drooling beast, that underestimated his enemy and as a result was chopped in two by a mere Padawan, and did not show half of Sidious' power and genius. Tyranus was skilled and powerful, but also underestimated the ability of his enemies to learn from their mistakes, and also overestimated his own position in the Order of the Sith Lords and Palpatine's plans in regards to his fate, the end result being his death at the hands of Anakin. And Vader was engineered to be the destructor of the Jedi Order, but in a wicked twist of fate that served much to Palpatine's liking, he wound up crippled and charred, which severely hampered Vader's own potential. The only Sith Lord that had the potential of outmatching Sidious was Vader, until the events of Mustafar. After that, Vader was relegated to the position of Apprentice, until he could find an apprentice of his own, powerful enough so that together they could challenge and kill Palpatine at last. That should have been Luke, if Darth Vader had his way as he intended at Bespin.

 

Which is true for most of the Universe in that the Jedi we actually see in the movies get cut down by combined blaster fire, get surprised and shot in the back, not to mention by the original 3 movies they fight in a slow prodding style as if the light sabers are 10 pound weapons... but in the prequels everybody is jumping around and moving much faster reflecting the more advanced fighting and cgi available at the times but still even those bouncy cgi Jedi fall victim to robots and non-force users and even robots with breathing troubles.

 

Where as the novels and EU jacked the power level of Jedi up into crazy realms where you have them doing blur speed attacks right out of anime, and using the force to screw over star destroyers.

 

Disconsidering the technological difficulties that precluded awesome acrobatics in the late 70's/early 80's, I do agree most Jedi were not impervious to harm. But they weren't push-overs either. It took more than a droid or a thug to bring down a Jedi, it took many of them, in battle. You don't see Obi-wan, Qui-gon, Anakin, Windu, Yoda or Luke having much trouble from the riff-raff. Just watch the battle of Geonosis, Yoda's and Obi-wan's attack to the Jedi Temple, and the fight scene at Jabba's sail barge on Episode VI. Likewise, the same goes for the top Sith. Which, in the current setting, means both Master and Apprentice.

 

The movies suggested this was more to the Dark Side of the Force in general making sensing of everything more difficult rather than the ability of Palps. The force was out of balance so much so the Jedi couldn't sense any traitors including Anakin's growing dark side, where Dooku was, or the entire world that went missing.

 

Again this is a matter of interpretation. It's never stated that the Dark Side had a will of its own. In fact, quite the opposite. The Dark Side was commanded by the will of its users, that's the core of what Lucas says in regards to the balance of the Force.

 

But that pertains to predicting the future. Everytime a Jedi met a powerful Force-user, there were indications that they could sense more than what appeared. As Yoda says to Anakin, "See through you, we can" Or even on his battle with Dooku: "Powerful you have become, Dooku, and the Dark Side, I sense in you". And, after the Battle of Geonosis, his words were "The shroud of the Dark Side has fallen. Begun, the Clone War has". When in fact the true shroud remained, that which covered Palpatine's true identity.

 

Palpatine often conferred with the leaders of the Jedi Order (in the position of Supreme Chancellor), and not once did Yoda see through his façade, at least until it was too late. And he was only revealed when he wanted to be revealed.

 

In short, we will agree to disagree. This has dragged on long enough already, and has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of the thread, which is the relationship between Vitiate's Sith Empire and Sidious' Galactic Empire.

[StarMagus]

In short, we will agree to disagree. This has dragged on long enough already, and has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of the thread, which is the relationship between Vitiate's Sith Empire and Sidious' Galactic Empire.

 

Good points all around and I'll quote the last because I like the fact that we can disagree with out things getting ugly. I certainly see where you are coming from and I'm not going to say you are wrong, just that I have a different opinion...

 

based on a certain point of view.