Darth Vader vs Darth Nox

ZooMzy · October 26, 2013

Vader beat Maul. So, yes, he does have potency against double-bladed opponents.

Just because he won, doesn't mean he actually was superior. Vader was actually beaten to a pulp by Maul, and only won by a from out of nowhere kill strike when he stabbed his lightsaber through himself.

So no, Vader is actually weak against double sided lightsaber fighters.

Again, he was not subdued by Galens force lightning.

The TFU novel specifically stated that Vader shrugged off Galens force lightning so no, Galen didn't take down with a singular blast of lightning as you keep putting it out to be, Galen simply beat Vader because of one thing : An overwhelming display of raw power in the force and because of his potential in the force(which was stated to rival Sidious).

Yet you're forgetting that even in the EU, that feat is a direct contradiction to Episode 6 where Vader actually ends up dying because of indirect lightning strikes from Sidious frying his suit.

Lol because im making a point that Vader is capable of defending himself?
You miss the point.

No one ever implied or hinted that Vader can't defend himself. But I did miss the point, as that is a very weak comparison to say that Vader can handle himself in comparison to Stormtroopers, who could probably die from paper cuts.

Not it didn't. Don't lie about it. Either read the TFU novel which states that Vaders suit got damaged by Galens barrage of telekinetic display(smashing Vader with giant pillars and a sheild generator) or the scripted scene in The force unleashed.

So basically you're saying the game and novel contradict each other now, considering the cutscenes clearly show Vader's susceptibility to lightning? Lol, whichever the source of canonicity is, I won't argue

Doesn't matter, considering both are a direct contradiction to the movies anyway.

None of these attacks including a display of force lightning........

I cut the majority of the points out, considering my point in regards to "Vader's susceptibility to lightning from the movies" point covers this.

You're a really terrible debater you know, not once has i rated Nox on a nightsister level.

Lol, I'm a bad debater? Yet you make comments like so:

Youre the one that made the ignorant claim that Force storm itslf is capable of ravaging ATAT-s to dust.

When did I say this?

There's not much of a difference, regardless if you're using a single lightsaber, Dual, or double bladed because they all follow the same sequence and steps of what ever lightsaber form you're using, this has been proven in Path of destruction

You do realize that sword play and overall combat in itself are not a brand new concept to Star Wars, correct? The psychological impact of fighting a single sword wielder versus a staff user is enough to give defeat in some fights. Vader has already proven that duel ended wielders are a weakness, as he is too slow and heavy to keep up with the fast paced combat the dual ended saber forces the user to undertake.

If you truly are going to try and argue that fighting a single blade versus a dual ended lightsaber is the exact same (It sounds like you are saying that, IE, if someone uses "Ataru", it will be the same type of fight no matter the weapon. Which, is incredibly ignorant in regards to actual melee combat), then go do some more studying on actual melee combat. As no single book of SW is going to discount the difference between the different styles of weapons, considering that the fighting style changes dramatically based on the weapon

His mastery of all 7 forms of lightsaber combat, the fact that he has fought multiple opponents whom were far more agile and quicker than he was and yet still beat them in sheer lightsaber combat.

And then again, we don't even know whats canon in the Inquisitor storyline, we don't even know if him using a double bladed lightsaber or single lightsaber is canon. Heck, assuming it is even canon if he/she used a double bladed lightsaber, what do we know of it? What forms of lightsaber combat has Nox mastered? What duel has he won with a lightsaber?

We know absolutely nothing of Nox's lightsaber skill as in comparison to Vader whom has been shown to be a master of all forms to the point of making a singular customary form which included elements of Juyo and the rest so i don't even see Nox having the capabilities to duel Vader let alone beat him in lightsaber combat.

The Inquistor storyline is open for interpretation because of this, meaning he can be a dual sided lightsaber wielder, or in fact, a Sorceror type similar to Palpatine. Either way though, confirmation is needed, but he would clearly be an adept and very powerful fighter in regards to his feats, despite the lack of confirmation with the forms.

He either defeated his opponents using his capability with a lightsaber and the Force, which many are notable kills more powerful than Vader (Thanaton alone is enough of an argument), or through mastery and power over the Force. My point there is that the melee version of Nox would be more than capable of defeating Vader, as he would basically be Maul with actual mastery over Force techniques.

His mastery of all 7 forms of lightsaber combat, the fact that he has fought multiple opponents whom were far more agile and quicker than he was and yet still beat them in sheer lightsaber combat.

And then again, we don't even know whats canon in the Inquisitor storyline, we don't even know if him using a double bladed lightsaber or single lightsaber is canon. Heck, assuming it is even canon if he/she used a double bladed lightsaber, what do we know of it? What forms of lightsaber combat has Nox mastered? What duel has he won with a lightsaber?

We know absolutely nothing of Nox's lightsaber skill as in comparison to Vader whom has been shown to be a master of all forms to the point of making a singular customary form which included elements of Juyo and the rest so i don't even see Nox having the capabilities to duel Vader let alone beat him in lightsaber combat.

First off, you read the comic again. When Maul was using the double bladed lightsaber, he couldn't overpower vader and vice versa, it was an even match, it was only when vader sliced his lightsaber into two, that Maul switched styles and caught vader off guard.

Yet Maul wasn't showing any clear signs of struggle and quite easily pulled the advantage over Vader? You actually bring up another flaw in your theory that Vader is a capable duelist by this argument alone, actually: he was practically defeated by a simple change in combat style?

So in reality, you are basically confirming that Vader, who you argue is a master of all 7 forms and is a much more capable duelist than a prime aged Dark Councilor, can't adjust to a sudden style change? Well, judging from the comment, here's the reason why:

He is slow, as I have said multiple times, and is unable to keep up with the fast paced fighting style of a young and fast duelist. You confirmed that with your comment admitting that Vader could not adjust to that sudden change, meaning Vader would lose to Nox in basic lightsaber combat alone, regardless of weapons.

Just because you don't like Vader, doesn't mean he is weak and can easily lose to someone who moves faster than him.

Lol, I never said I don't like Vader. I just find it funny when people try to argue that a old and crippled man, lost in depression and anger is capable of competing against powerful Dark Side masters during an era that naturally creates a strong set of fighters from the competition between the two orders.

Which, as I have elaborated above, you actually disprove that comment above by your admittance that Vader was unable to adapt to Maul's sudden change in combat style.

Don't talk about "realistically loses to quick blah blah blah", don't even mention the word "realistic" in star wars when you have sounds and explosions in outer space.

My point of "realism" comes from the feats of what Vader is capable of, actually. You know, where he doesn't have immunity in his suit because it is proven fact that indirect Force Lightning from Sidious actually short circuited his suit and thus, killed him?

Which i have disproven and caught you lying.

Umm, no you didn't? Because my point that Darth Nox is a powerhouse with the Force Walk ritual bindings in addition to his mastery over the Dark Side make him a more powerful version of Sidious, basically?

Keep in mind that the whole of the EU is inconsistent with characters and their powers, not just Vaders powers, don't attempt to downplay them just because you don't like him and want your favourite character to beat him.

So basically you're admitting your whole argument about Vader's capability is a contradiction, and thus, you are the only one getting upset over the fact that your "favorite character" isn't capable of winning?

Secondly, you are making this baseless claim like the one above about how I'm playing favorites and trying to biasly downplay a character, yet you make comments like this?:

I've finished the Inquisitor storyline, and i wasn't impressed to be honest. Nox needing to visit different worlds for the force ghosts to amp up his power just to beat Thanaton?

And on an unrelated note, my favorite character is Darth Maul before what they did to him in the Clone Wars. But nice try, I'm not that big of a fan of Nox, yet I'm capable of understanding he's/she's stronger than a contradictory Vader

Looks like your baseless attack to claim I am arguing with bias just backfired heavily there bud. GG.

His powers are not "exaggerated" as you would like to put it out to be, you just don't like the fact that Vader isn't some weak force user as most kids who play KOTOR and hate the movies thinks its cool to do so.

LOL

First off, talk about the kinds of baseless assumptions you are making in the face of getting stomped down for your joke of an argument? Secondly, the movies actually emphasize the whole idea that Vader is weak after he turned to the Dark Side and lost to Obi-Wan.

He was beaten by an untrained Jedi kid, died from indirect lightning shocks, and fulfilled a prophecy from throwing someone over an edge. The whole appeal of the movies and the irony of the prophecy came from the fact that Vader was an unrealized potential, and emphasized the moral behind "It's not strength that changes your fate. It's the choices you make." That's why I think movie Vader is actually the best villain in SW and personally am a fan of.

My disdain comes from the attempts the EU makes at actually fulfilling the potential Vader was never supposed to realize. But I don't argue from emotion, since I can logically argue against the EU since 90% of the feats created for Vader can be contradicted by the movies, such as the super tanking of lightning you're trying to make.

And don't try to tell me whats canon or not since you yourself stated you don't care about the rules of canon

This isn't directed to me, so thanks for the free ammo

Your entire argument in regards to Vader in itself is a contradiction, because your whole point that Vader can tank lightning is disproven by the main source of canoncity: the movies. Where he dies from his suit short circuiting from INDIRECT lightning.

You also come out and actually admit that the EU is full of contradictions, which in itself, proves your argument about Vader's feats in the EU are contradictory as well. Darth Nox, while isn't free of contradictions either, still can be considered more powerful due to the immense strength he gains from the Force Walk ritual, in addition to the fact that he is a clear master of the Dark Side of the Force as his status as a Dark Councilor.

And I didn't even have to argue how TFU is actually a completely uncannonical source of information to draw from.

Edited October 26, 2013 by ZooMzy

Beniboybling · October 26, 2013

Its not game mechanics when its a cutscene and a scripted gameplay scene according to the devs, so yes, Galen did beat Vader by amping his own lightning with 3 giant pylons, the novel and comic even states this.

And don't try to tell me whats canon or not since you yourself stated you don't care about the rules of canon

Scripted gameplay is game mechanics.

But anyway correction on my part he absorbed a lightning bolt from one pylon and then blasted it at Vader, who was then unable to fight back. I'll admit it was powerful but it certainly wasn't the OP purple light show we see him put on in-game. And then of course we have Vader's momentary lapse when hit prior to Marek-clone's escape.

And then we just have the fact that he's wearing a suit made of electronic components, and has never actually "tanked" lightning before - in all his showings the lightning as subdued him.

Futhermore, lightning was presumable what caused Vader's defeat in TFU - I'll see if I can dig up the quote but it makes reference to Vader's life support systems and other electronic parts being extremely damaged. The explosion couldn't have done that, Vader has tanked explosions and come away with barely a scratch.

It therefore must have been the lightning.

Again I'm not saying that this is an insta-win for Nox, because in the end he has to catch Vader off-guard for it to work or Vader will just raise a Force shield or something. And in the end it comes down to how potent Nox's lightning can be, and how much he can resist himself. Its all very much up in the air really.

And when did I myself state I don't care about the rules of canon?

Kaedusz · October 26, 2013

This is the same argument you use every single time we see a 'Vader vs.' thread.

Just the same as most of you.

Unless new lore and events around Vader were added from the last time i was in such a thread , i don't see an issue.Vader is the same person when pitted vs Nox or vs anyone else,last time i checked.

In this case i want Vader to win,cus i am not a fan of Nox in principle ,but i just can't see it happening.That is , if you are implying i name Vader the loser just because.It's not the case,as shown plenty of times.For example the vs Malgus thread.

Edited October 26, 2013 by Kaedusz

Beniboybling · October 26, 2013

Just because he won, doesn't mean he actually was superior. Vader was actually beaten to a pulp by Maul, and only won by a from out of nowhere kill strike when he stabbed his lightsaber through himself.

So no, Vader is actually weak against double sided lightsaber fighters.

That's conjecture, nowhere I'm afraid is it stated that Maul's saberstaff was what caused Vader to lose. It was Jar'Kai that Vader struggled with.

He chopped Maul's saberstaff in half - I'd say that's dealing with it pretty well.

And in terms of lightsaber skill Nox isn't even Maul's equal. Let alone Vader's. He's an inquisitor, not a warrior.

I'm thinking in the end that Vader would probably win, he can tank Nox's lightning with a protection bubble and then just overwhelm Nox with his power dueling blended in with telekinetic attacks.

Edited October 26, 2013 by Beniboybling

Beniboybling · October 26, 2013

If we eliminated the need to preserve Vader for the timeline, he realistically loses to fast, nimble, and quick movements that a young and skilled fighter can do. Which if you look at Nox in his prime, he is.

Incorrect I'm afraid. Vader may be slow but all he needs to do is pivot to keep up with fast opponents. Vader has engaged and defeated extremely agile opponents simply by putting up an impenetrable defense and remaining stationary. In fact he actually frequently applied this tactic in battle, hunkering down and let his enemies exhaust themselves before going in for the kill. All he needs is fast reflexes, reflexes that have been compared to Yoda himself.

Simply put, agility doesn't need to be countered with agility.

ZooMzy · October 26, 2013

That's conjecture, nowhere I'm afraid is it stated that Maul's saberstaff was what caused Vader to lose. It was Jar'Kai that Vader struggled with.

So confirmation is needed to interpret Vader's weakness? You can't interpret a slow moving and heavy fighter getting outpaced by the movements that Maul emphasizes especially in his use of the dual ended lightsaber, and the only way to possibly confirm that Vader struggles with it is by some canon source placing a "Vader struggles fight with X kind of opponents"?

In that case, Nox wins because he can use the same strategy against Vader as he did with Skotia because Vader is a mechanized enhancements, which are a confirmed weakness. Amazing, isn't it, when there's more to an argument than simple facts, right?

He chopped Maul's saberstaff in half - I'd say that's dealing with it pretty well.

Only after Maul pretty much slashes open Vader's suit and had landed multiple hits while still maintaining a huge advantage in the fight, even after switching styles?

Yeah....no. More like Vader took the opening he had, but he is clearly still at Maul's mercy the entire time. So no, he really didn't handle the situation well considering how Maul already landed a successful hit that was a critical blow to Vader.

And in terms of lightsaber skill Nox isn't even Maul's equal. Let alone Vader's. He's an inquisitor, not a warrior.

I'm sorry, but are you really trying to discount Nox's capability from a set of classes TOR invented? The character storylines have absolutely nothing to do with the classes being played, as that would be similar to saying that Moff Tarkin should've survived the Death Star explosion because he's an operative and can h2f.

But if you really want to go down this path of stupid, then Vader isn't a warrior either because he is never classified as such. In fact, he isn't classified as anything, meaning there's no way he can compete with the Dar Side masters that are Inquisitors.

I'm thinking in the end that Vader would probably win, he can tank Nox's lightning with a protection bubble and then just overwhelm Nox with his power dueling blended in with telekinetic attacks.

Because he did the exact same thing with Maul, right?

Because a little invincibility ward would've protected him so well against the raw output Galen Marek could do, and a Dark Councilor that has the power of 4 recognized Darths/Masters with a complete mastery of the Dark Side of the Force wouldn't be able to counter it, considering he also possesses countless Force techniques under his belt as the head of the Sphere of Ancient Knowledge? You know, where Nox actually will have a massive advantage to Vader in the Force because he has the all the Force knowledge gained by Vitate's Sith Empire?

And also because he knows to use it against younger and faster opponents, except for well Darth Maul. Who is a known master of saber combat and Vader would know he couldn't outpace him....

This is also the same Vader that can, apparently, tank ridiculous amounts of lightning, yet dies from short circuiting life support systems cause by Sidious' indirect lightning?

No, Vader loses. He actually gets crushed, now that I think about it.

Aurbere · October 26, 2013

So we're comparing Nox to Maul and Sidious?

This is one of the many reasons that a thread involving PCs vs. explored characters should not be made.

Darkelefantos · October 26, 2013

So we're comparing Nox to Maul and Sidious?

This is one of the many reasons that a thread involving PCs vs. explored characters should not be made.

Yes, obviously Nox is the supreme Lord of the Galaxy, masterful at the use of the double-bladed LS that he may or may not have since there is no canon statement about this, and he is also far above the most powerful Sith in history. He also has more creative control over the franchise than George Lucas ever had.

Beniboybling · October 26, 2013

So confirmation is needed to interpret Vader's weakness? You can't interpret a slow moving and heavy fighter getting outpaced by the movements that Maul emphasizes especially in his use of the dual ended lightsaber, and the only way to possibly confirm that Vader struggles with it is by some canon source placing a "Vader struggles fight with X kind of opponents"?

In that case, Nox wins because he can use the same strategy against Vader as he did with Skotia because Vader is a mechanized enhancements, which are a confirmed weakness. Amazing, isn't it, when there's more to an argument than simple facts, right?

Only after Maul pretty much slashes open Vader's suit and had landed multiple hits while still maintaining a huge advantage in the fight, even after switching styles?

Yeah....no. More like Vader took the opening he had, but he is clearly still at Maul's mercy the entire time. So no, he really didn't handle the situation well considering how Maul already landed a successful hit that was a critical blow to Vader.

I'm sorry, but are you really trying to discount Nox's capability from a set of classes TOR invented? The character storylines have absolutely nothing to do with the classes being played, as that would be similar to saying that Moff Tarkin should've survived the Death Star explosion because he's an operative and can h2f.

But if you really want to go down this path of stupid, then Vader isn't a warrior either because he is never classified as such. In fact, he isn't classified as anything, meaning there's no way he can compete with the Dar Side masters that are Inquisitors.

Because he did the exact same thing with Maul, right?

Because a little invincibility ward would've protected him so well against the raw output Galen Marek could do, and a Dark Councilor that has the power of 4 recognized Darths/Masters with a complete mastery of the Dark Side of the Force wouldn't be able to counter it, considering he also possesses countless Force techniques under his belt as the head of the Sphere of Ancient Knowledge? You know, where Nox actually will have a massive advantage to Vader in the Force because he has the all the Force knowledge gained by Vitate's Sith Empire?

And also because he knows to use it against younger and faster opponents, except for well Darth Maul. Who is a known master of saber combat and Vader would know he couldn't outpace him....

This is also the same Vader that can, apparently, tank ridiculous amounts of lightning, yet dies from short circuiting life support systems cause by Sidious' indirect lightning?

No, Vader loses. He actually gets crushed, now that I think about it.

1. Vader cut Maul's saberstaff in half and before that was stalemating with him. Also combine that with the fact that 'slow moving, heavy fighters' are not necessarily de-facto weak against fast opponents. Vader being the perfect example. I mean that would kinda suck in the fast paced agile world of lightsaber dueling don't you think? I'll agree that Vader seems to struggle against Jar'Kai - because that was portrayed. Not with a saberstaff, he handed Maul well.

2. As far as I'm aware, Maul landed one hit on Vader. And it was not a consequence of outmaneuvering him, one of his attacks just bypassed his defenses. It happens, it doesn't necessarily mean your weak against that particular style, but just that your opponent is on the same level of skill as you. Vader then returns to blow by slicing his blade in half - I'd say that makes them even. Though in that case it certainly highlights the fact that the saberstaff's hilt is a big target. Regardless its likely that Nox was a Sith Sorcerer, not an Assassin, given the fact that controlled the Pyramid of Ancient Knowledge - the specialty of Sith Sorcerers, not the Pyramid of Sith Assassins.

So what does this tell us about Nox vs Vader? Well if we assume that Nox is as skilled as Maul (which is highly unlikely) then Nox gets one hit and then his blade gets severed. But with no Jar'Kai to fall back on he can't get the advantage that Maul did, and he no longer has the advantage of a saberstaff - which probably never existed.

You also might want to take into account the effect Maul's blows have on Vader, even when being impaled in the stomach Vader gets up, heck he doesn't even seem phased. So even if Nox lands some blows, he just can't win in terms of lightsaber combat. Maul proves that it is not a feasible course of action, at all really.

3. And your evidence? What is your evidence to suggest he is as skilled as Maul with the blade? Maul was trained by Darth Sidious himself - a Sith Battlemaster - solely in lightsaber combat to become a living weapon. Nox, as a Sith Inquisitor, a canon subset of the Sith Order according to the SWTOR Encyclopedia (much like a Jedi Consular/Knight) places emphasis on study of the Force, rather than marital abilities. I'm not saying he is unskilled, I am sure that he's highly skilled. But as skilled as Maul? It seems unlikely and to say so is pure speculation.

4. Maul didn't use lightning, so Vader wouldn't use such techniques. Who for the record, he defeated. Nor does Nox really compare to the boy who had the potential to become the most powerful Force user ever. The only way Nox could penetrate Vader's defenses was by being more powerful than him, but I don't believe he is. You may disagree, but don't try convincing me. Also I never said Vader could tank ridiculous amounts of lightning, don't put words in my both.

I spent some time writing this, so I'll post it. But I'm not sure I like your tone which indicates you aren't prepared to have this discussion on the same level as me. So be prepared for me to leave you to 'debate' with Makoto.

Edited October 26, 2013 by Beniboybling

Beniboybling · October 26, 2013

So we're comparing Nox to Maul and Sidious?

This is one of the many reasons that a thread involving PCs vs. explored characters should not be made.

I feel that's true.

ZooMzy · October 26, 2013

So we're comparing Nox to Maul and Sidious?

This is one of the many reasons that a thread involving PCs vs. explored characters should not be made.

Considering that Nox's overall character has not been confirmed, it is plausible. He can either be a powerful adept with a dual ended lightsaber with incredible strength in the Dark Side, or even more of a Force master.

At least it's better than a villain who becomes completely broken and contradictory because the EU and fanboys want to make him something he isn't supposed to be

1. Vader cut Maul's saberstaff in half and before that was stalemating with him. Also combine that with the fact that 'slow moving, heavy fighters' are not necessarily de-facto weak against fast opponents. Vader being the perfect example. I mean that would kinda suck in the fast paced agile world of lightsaber dueling don't you think? I'll agree that Vader seems to struggle against Jar'Kai - because that was portrayed. Not with a saberstaff, he handed Maul well.

Vader didn't handle Maul well in the slightest, actually, and the screens of the comic encounter prove it:

Darth Maul vs Darth Vader

The entire fight between Maul and Vader in saber combat was in favor of Maul, who smacked, cut and landed blow after blow on Vader like a sci-fi Muhammad Ali. He was toying with Vader the entire time, where you can see him taunting and berating Vader with dialogue throughout the entire fight while Vader remained silent and struggled to keep pace with Maul until he gained a lucky break and slashed Maul's saber in half.

Deciding to obviously play serious and getting a little mad himself, it is clear Maul then turned on Vader with dual wielding sabers, and rapidly put him down on his knees. Vader couldn't keep pace with him in either stance, it was Maul's carelessness and reckless nature that allowed Vader to slash his saber in half and Maul merely decided to end the fight now that he had that lucky break. Which logically, means it wouldn't have taken much for him to put Vader down using the dual ended saber either, probably even less with the amount of maneuvering Maul did around Vader in that fight.

Point being, when a fast and agile opponent tries against him, Vader gets wrecked. So no, handling the situation well would've meant Vader had control of the fight for a portion of it. Which he clearly didn't.

2. As far as I'm aware, Maul landed one hit on Vader. And it was not a consequence of outmaneuvering him, one of his attacks just bypassed his defenses. It happens, it doesn't necessarily mean your weak against that particular style, but just that your opponent is on the same level of skill as you. Vader then returns to blow by slicing his blade in half - I'd say that makes them even. Though in that case it certainly highlights the fact that the saberstaff's hilt is a big target. Regardless its likely that Nox was a Sith Sorcerer, not an Assassin, given the fact that controlled the Pyramid of Ancient Knowledge - the specialty of Sith Sorcerers, not the Pyramid of Sith Assassins.

Maul landed one critical hit on him. And also landed a couple of punches and kicks as well. And look at the fight again, either Maul outpaced him or Maul easily countered a defense considering the lack of effort and skill he used to accomplish the move. Whether or not you can digest the slow cyborg failing to keep pace is irrelevant, as the "slip past defenses" argument is also weak. The argument that Vader is a master at lightsaber combat even after his crippling is inaccurate, as both cases with Maul prove the notion that he is far from being able to compete with other top names.

And.....wut. The Pyramid of Sith Assassins....I don't even....

Ok, step one:

1) Understand that game classes in TOR are NOT, I repeat, NOT part of lore. There is no classification of Assassin or Sorceror or Warrior or Powertech or anything like that in regards to who the characters were, as you don't have to wield a double bladed lightsaber to be a Sith Assassin in lore.

To claim Nox is likely this type of Sith over a duel ended saber user with the Force is baseless, as either scenario is just as likely to happen until EA announces a concrete "This is who Darth Nox is" type statement. Just because you wield a dual ended lightsaber and fight melee combat, doesn't mean you wouldn't logically be the head of the sphere of Ancient Knowledge. Just like every single Bounty Hunter in the SW universe isn't a one or two wielding pistol user that is based around the character concept of Jango Fett.

I also cut out the rest of your argument as it ties into the screens with Maul vs Vader. Vader couldn't keep pace, Maul easily bested him in combat.

3. And your evidence? What is your evidence to suggest he is as skilled as Maul with the blade? Maul was trained by Darth Sidious himself - a Sith Battlemaster - solely in lightsaber combat to become a living weapon. Nox, as a Sith Inquisitor, a canon subset of the Sith Order according to the SWTOR Encyclopedia (much like a Jedi Consular/Knight) places emphasis on study of the Force, rather than marital abilities. I'm not saying he is unskilled, I am sure that he's highly skilled. But as skilled as Maul? It seems unlikely and to say so is pure speculation.

Nox doesn't have to be as skilled as Maul is, my point being that Nox is around the ballpark of what Maul would be to Vader as a dual ended lightsaber user. And again, Maul absolutely stomped Vader in when he decided to play serious, holding control of the fight when he was merely toying with him.

So if Vader is such a master of lightsaber combat, then there's only one explanation: he can't keep pace and he can't compete with faster, agile opponents. Where, being a dual ended lightsaber user emphasizes both of those advantages, meaning Nox could be an amateur as a dual ended lightsaber wielder for the matter and still pull out on top over Vader.

This, combined with the kind of Force mastery you see in the Inquisitor storyline = easy win for Nox.

4. Maul didn't use lightning, so Vader wouldn't use such techniques. Who for the record, he defeated. Nor does Nox really compare to the boy who had the potential to become the most powerful Force user ever. The only way Nox could penetrate Vader's defenses was by being more powerful than him, but I don't believe he is. You may disagree, but don't try convincing me. Also I never said Vader could tank ridiculous amounts of lightning, don't put words in my both.

With the bolded part, you have basically just admitted where Vader fails in the argument.

Firstly, Maul lost like he usually does, against a weaker opponent due to stupid actions and overconfident biding. Does this mean Vader is now stronger, a better duelist, and a better fighter than Maul? Possibly in terms of character, but if you look at skill and power alone, Maul stomps Vader.

Secondly, you basically just admitted to what the whole idea of Vader is: a character who had the potential to be the most powerful. Not the most powerful, but the potential. That, as you should be able to see, was cut short when he lost nearly all of his limbs and required a life support system to function.

Surely you can see the error in trying to argue that a crippled unrealized potential that is Vader, is capable of matching up against a Dark Councilor who holds the power of 3 recognized Darths and a Jedi Master under his belt, the ancient Sith knowledge of Vitate's entire Sith Empire, and lives in an era where Sith and Jedi are naturally stronger from the competition the two orders give each other to further show his strength against original time period SW characters?

I spent some time writing this, so I'll post it. But I'm not sure I like your tone which indicates you aren't prepared to have this discussion on the same level as me. So be prepared for me to leave you to 'debate' with Makoto.

If you're going to be unresponsive about the most important part of an argument, make sure you stop debating then. Because you may have commented about how I'm not ready for this discussion, but quite frankly, your response shows that you are the only one who isn't ready for it. Your fanboyism of Vader is showing with that little comment about the "potential to be the most powerful Force user" alone, where you basically put "Vader is more powerful than X and I'm not going to listen to you no matter what evidence and logic you give in the contrary".

Sorry to burst your little bubble, but Vader isn't exactly as powerful as you want him to be

Edited October 26, 2013 by ZooMzy

Aurbere · October 26, 2013

Believing that Nox is as skilled as Maul is an assumption. Your argument has no ground to stand on in this area.

And enough of the 'fanboy' and 'hater' talk. Grow up, people.

Edited October 26, 2013 by Aurbere

ZooMzy · October 26, 2013

Believing that Nox is as skilled as Maul is an assumption. Your argument has no ground to stand on in this area.

Yet my argument does not stand on the grounds that Nox is as skilled as Maul? Merely that duel ended saber wielders emphasize the two points that Vader is naturally incapable of competing with, the fight with Maul and Vader emphasizing that?

Please go do some reading. You seem to try and fight back with this little one liners, and it would be a better attempt if you didn't just skim over my posts and thought you can make a major counter in your own ignorance.

Edited October 26, 2013 by ZooMzy

Aurbere · October 26, 2013

Yet my argument does not stand on the grounds that Nox is as skilled as Maul? Merely that duel ended saber wielders emphasize the two points that Vader is naturally incapable of competing with, the fight with Maul and Vader emphasizing that?

Please go do some reading. You seem to try and fight back with this little one liners, and it would be a better attempt if you didn't just skim over my posts and thought you can make a major counter in your own ignorance.

Ignorance, hmm? You could not be more wrong. Also, I have read your posts. The logic behind them is heavily flawed. Those flaws should be obvious to you. Perhaps it is you who is ignorant?

Beniboybling · October 26, 2013

Vader didn't handle Maul well in the slightest, actually, and the screens of the comic encounter prove it:

Darth Maul vs Darth Vader

The entire fight between Maul and Vader in saber combat was in favor of Maul, who smacked, cut and landed blow after blow on Vader like a sci-fi Muhammad Ali. He was toying with Vader the entire time, where you can see him taunting and berating Vader with dialogue throughout the entire fight while Vader remained silent and struggled to keep pace with Maul until he gained a lucky break and slashed Maul's saber in half.

Deciding to obviously play serious and getting a little mad himself, it is clear Maul then turned on Vader with dual wielding sabers, and rapidly put him down on his knees. Vader couldn't keep pace with him in either stance, it was Maul's carelessness and reckless nature that allowed Vader to slash his saber in half and Maul merely decided to end the fight now that he had that lucky break. Which logically, means it wouldn't have taken much for him to put Vader down using the dual ended saber either, probably even less with the amount of maneuvering Maul did around Vader in that fight.

Point being, when a fast and agile opponent tries against him, Vader gets wrecked. So no, handling the situation well would've meant Vader had control of the fight for a portion of it. Which he clearly didn't.

Maul landed one critical hit on him. And also landed a couple of punches and kicks as well. And look at the fight again, either Maul outpaced him or Maul easily countered a defense considering the lack of effort and skill he used to accomplish the move. Whether or not you can digest the slow cyborg failing to keep pace is irrelevant, as the "slip past defenses" argument is also weak. The argument that Vader is a master at lightsaber combat even after his crippling is inaccurate, as both cases with Maul prove the notion that he is far from being able to compete with other top names.

And.....wut. The Pyramid of Sith Assassins....I don't even....

Ok, step one:

1) Understand that game classes in TOR are NOT, I repeat, NOT part of lore. There is no classification of Assassin or Sorceror or Warrior or Powertech or anything like that in regards to who the characters were, as you don't have to wield a double bladed lightsaber to be a Sith Assassin in lore.

To claim Nox is likely this type of Sith over a duel ended saber user with the Force is baseless, as either scenario is just as likely to happen until EA announces a concrete "This is who Darth Nox is" type statement. Just because you wield a dual ended lightsaber and fight melee combat, doesn't mean you wouldn't logically be the head of the sphere of Ancient Knowledge. Just like every single Bounty Hunter in the SW universe isn't a one or two wielding pistol user that is based around the character concept of Jango Fett.

I also cut out the rest of your argument as it ties into the screens with Maul vs Vader. Vader couldn't keep pace, Maul easily bested him in combat.

Nox doesn't have to be as skilled as Maul is, my point being that Nox is around the ballpark of what Maul would be to Vader as a dual ended lightsaber user. And again, Maul absolutely stomped Vader in when he decided to play serious, holding control of the fight when he was merely toying with him.

So if Vader is such a master of lightsaber combat, then there's only one explanation: he can't keep pace and he can't compete with faster, agile opponents. Where, being a dual ended lightsaber user emphasizes both of those advantages, meaning Nox could be an amateur as a dual ended lightsaber wielder for the matter and still pull out on top over Vader.

This, combined with the kind of Force mastery you see in the Inquisitor storyline = easy win for Nox.

With the bolded part, you have basically just admitted where Vader fails in the argument.

Firstly, Maul lost like he usually does, against a weaker opponent due to stupid actions and overconfident biding. Does this mean Vader is now stronger, a better duelist, and a better fighter than Maul? Possibly in terms of character, but if you look at skill and power alone, Maul stomps Vader.

Secondly, you basically just admitted to what the whole idea of Vader is: a character who had the potential to be the most powerful. Not the most powerful, but the potential. That, as you should be able to see, was cut short when he lost nearly all of his limbs and required a life support system to function.

Surely you can see the error in trying to argue that a crippled unrealized potential that is Vader, is capable of matching up against a Dark Councilor who holds the power of 3 recognized Darths and a Jedi Master under his belt, the ancient Sith knowledge of Vitate's entire Sith Empire, and lives in an era where Sith and Jedi are naturally stronger from the competition the two orders give each other to further show his strength against original time period SW characters?

If you're going to be unresponsive about the most important part of an argument, make sure you stop debating then. Because you may have commented about how I'm not ready for this discussion, but quite frankly, your response shows that you are the only one who isn't ready for it. Your fanboyism of Vader is showing with that little comment about the "potential to be the most powerful Force user" alone, where you basically put "Vader is more powerful than X and I'm not going to listen to you no matter what evidence and logic you give in the contrary".

Sorry to burst your little bubble, but Vader isn't exactly as powerful as you want him to be

1. Funny that's exactly the same set of scans I read and reached a different interpretation. Ultimately comics are very subjective things, as still images allow the reader to make him own interpretations on certain aspects. Your use of words and phrases such as "lucky break" and "struggled to keep pace" are simply coloring the comic based on your opinions, and I expect I have done the same. Discussing that will get us nowhere.

However what is certainly objective is that Maul did not 'land blow after blow'. I can't see any evidence of that. He landed one kick, and one lightsaber cut. The former is irrelevant as Nox is not a master of Teras Kasi and the latter is also irrelevant as it failed to phase Vader in the slightest. On the other hand Vader has shown himself capable of severing a saberstaff in half. Is Nox a master of Jar'Kai as well? I don't think so, at that point the advantage disappears into thin air, and Nox unfortunately hasn't made much of a dent.

That is if we assume Nox is in anyway comparable to Maul, which he is not. They are completely different archetypes. I suspect that Nox would refrain from engaging Vader in pure lightsaber combat and instead attempt to make some distance so he can use his Force abilities. Let's not start thinking that Nox is Maul, cause Maul lost.

Ultimately the only thing we can draw from this is that Vader can handle saberstaffs, and that unless Nox is more skilled than Maul his lightsaber will get cut in half, given that was what happened in this duel. I also don't feel the saberstaff can take the credit for landing that hit, I think that's entirely down to Maul's skill as a duelist, hence why I feel we should leave this alone. Because in the end Maul and Nox are not one and the same, they are different.

2. What Maul was using is called Dun Moch, he was not toying with Vader in the sense he wasn't giving it his all. I expect he was, Dun Moch is a verbal tactic where you taunt your enemy into revealing weaknesses. Why did Vader remain silent? Because it wasn't working, Vader was completely unphased by the attack and just ignored him.

3. A blow to the head isn't going to take Vader down, just after he endured a blow to the gut and just got up. I expect for that reason Vader was feigning weakness, he could apply the exact same tactic to Nox, or just turn around and blow him away with a Force wave. That or he would not capitulate in the first place. But again, Maul isn't Nox.

4. Game classes are a part of Star Wars Lore. Yes Sith Assassins exist, yes Sith Inquisitors exist, yes Sith Sorcerers exist. Allow me to quote the SWTOR Encyclopedia:

"To be a Sith requires strength, confidence, and sheer power. But to become a Sith Inquisitor, one must embrace the dark side and wield its destructive power with unparalleled cunning. While other SIth fight amongst themselves, inquisitors survey the battlefield, devise sinister plans to seize power, and manipulate enemies into warring with each other."

This, written from an in-universe perspective, clearly establishes the Sith Inquisitor as a role within the ranks of the Sith Order. Much like the titles of Sith Maurader, Sith Assassin etc. where ascribed in-universe to individuals. The Encylopedia also labels Darth Jadus, Lord Vindican, Darth Baras and Naga Sadow as Sith Inquisitors. Given that they are NPCs we can only assume that these are not in-game classes, but actual canon roles within the Order.

"Mastery over the dark side requires raw talent and an indomitable spirit. Sith inquisitors draw on their inner passions and dedicate themselves to one facet of the dark arts in their pursuit of ultimate power."

This establishes that Sith Inquisitors make a decision to pursue different paths, much like Jedi Consular's choose to be historians, shadows etc. These choices are defined as the Sith Sorcerer and Sith Assassin. The latter of which their was a Pyramid dedicated to. You can look that up as well if you like. One would assume that if Nox became a Sith Assassin, he would become a member of the Pyramid.

Now if you have some canonical evidence that disputes this, such as a quote from a dev or a sourcebook. Then please provide it. However your own personal opinions on the matter will not suffice in terms of canon.

Regardless of that, by pursuing the role of an Inquisitor, Nox dedicated himself to study of the Force as opposed to lightsaber combat - much like Jedi Consulars do. On the other hand Vader, formerly Anakin, was trained as a Jedi Knight and dedicated himself primarily to study of lightsaber combat. On this evidence alone (which in all honesty is all we have - if you have other evidence please provide it) Vader is logically the superior duelist.

5. Vader has kept pace and defeated agile opponents before such as the Dark Woman among other Jedi. Heck, he took on eight Jedi, most of which were masters, who surrounded him, and he still won. Think about it, he doesn't have to move, all he has to do is pivot and react. And Vader was said to be able to move as fast as Master Yoda, he may not be able to jump and flip but he's more than capable of withstanding rapid flurries from multiple angles. And again, any blows that do get through he simply tanks. None of the blows Maul dealt to Vader were serious, Maul failed to defeat him. Vader can endure a ridiculous amount of injury. That needs to be taken into account. Even beating Vader in lightsaber combat does not = win.

6. Again Maul didn't just get serious, he changed style. And in multiple scenarios Jar'Kai has been shown to phase opponents and drive them back. For example when Anakin used Jar'Kai against Dooku, and more stunningly when Kas'im used Jar'Kai against Bane the tables turned completely. Nox can't do that, once his saber is severed he's down to one, and how well is Nox going to hold up after that? That is what we should be asking.

7. I was referring to Galen Marek, he had potential to become the most powerful Force User ever. He moved Star Destroyers, he is immensely powerful - and it was that power that led him to defeating Vader. Not just because he was fast and had lightning, because you need much more than that to take him down. And Maul is not stronger than Vader, all we have to look at is Force feats to see that Vader outclasses him exponentially. You underestimate the level of raw power he wields, he brought down entire buildings. Sidious kept him around for a reason you know.

8. The entire Sith knowledge of the Sith Empire? I raise you every scrap of Sith knowledge ever known, at the feet of Sidious he had an immense well of knowledge at his disposal. But his mastery over the basics suffices. What good is a broad range of flashy powers if Vader can counter them all in the same way? Raw power is what is important here. That said you've been so caught up in Maul's capabilities, that you've failed to elaborate on Nox's. Who as far as I'm aware has only mastered telekinesis, Force lightning, Force healing and Force drain.

Anyway clearly you don't have much value for Vader's power. This video provides a broad analysis of his abilities.

Beniboybling · October 26, 2013

If you're going to be unresponsive about the most important part of an argument, make sure you stop debating then. Because you may have commented about how I'm not ready for this discussion, but quite frankly, your response shows that you are the only one who isn't ready for it. Your fanboyism of Vader is showing with that little comment about the "potential to be the most powerful Force user" alone, where you basically put "Vader is more powerful than X and I'm not going to listen to you no matter what evidence and logic you give in the contrary".

Sorry to burst your little bubble, but Vader isn't exactly as powerful as you want him to be

I don't care if you don't agree with me. Your entitled to your opinions and I fully respect that. However I do take issue with your hostile and dismissive attitude. It comes across as if you don't value my opinions and think that they are simple wrong and not worth considering. I do value your opinions and I think Nox could pull out a win, but I also think Vader has a very strong chance as well. I'd ask you to respect the fact that I am entitled to my opinions just as much as you are, and insulting someone for disagreeing with you is unhealthy, and gives off a bad impression.

P.S. I also have no idea what you are referring to concerning "the most important part" of your argument. I've tried to be as thorough as I can in my responses but if there is something I have missed then my apologies.

Kaedusz · October 26, 2013

Yes, obviously Nox is the supreme Lord of the Galaxy, masterful at the use of the double-bladed LS that he may or may not have since there is no canon statement about this, and he is also far above the most powerful Sith in history. He also has more creative control over the franchise than George Lucas ever had.

GL only ever cared about his Skywalker story.When GL makes a canon statement he speaks as if the only timeline that exists in Star Wars is about from the creation of the Brotherhood of Darkness or some time prior to it till ep6.

Every other EU is a creation of a third party making with the condescending nod of GL because of the income it will bring.

So what you say may be in a sarcasting tone,but you are more right than you realise.

* * *

Bear in mind i am not complaining about the above mentioned scenario ,it worked well so far.Hope they don't screw it up with the Disney shenanigans.

However some people are taking Gl's canon statements too seriously.

Edited October 27, 2013 by Kaedusz

Selenial · October 27, 2013

GL only ever cared about his Skywalker story.When GL makes a canon statement he speaks as if the only timeline that exists in Star Wars is about from the creation of the Brotherhood of Darkness or some time prior to it till ep6.

Every other EU is a creation of a third party making with the condescending nod of GL because of the income it will bring.
So what you say may be in a sarcasting tone,but you are more right than you realise.

No he's not.

No matter what, Nox will never be more powerful or more skilled than Sidious.

Edited October 27, 2013 by Selenial

Kaedusz · October 27, 2013

No matter what, Nox will never be more powerful or more skilled than Sidious.[/color]

What the f...?

Ofc Nox is not > Sidious. It's obvious.SW lore is a clear indication of that.But please don't come up with GL said so as an argument,because it's invalid.Sidious is > Nox ,because of the lore,not because of ''canon statements''.

This is not freaking World of Warcraft in which what Chris Metzen says is law.

Edited October 27, 2013 by Kaedusz

Selenial · October 27, 2013

What the f...?

Ofc Nox is not > Sidious. It's obvious.SW lore is a clear indication of that.But please don't come up with GL said so as an argument,because it's invalid.Sidious is > Nox ,because of the lore,not because of ''canon statements''.

This is not freaking World of Warcraft in which Chris Metzen says is law.

Not just GL. We've got Leland Che to tell authors their work is ridiculous and lolno...

Makoto_Shishio · October 27, 2013

Yet you're forgetting that even in the EU, that feat is a direct contradiction to Episode 6 where Vader actually ends up dying because of indirect lightning strikes from Sidious frying his suit.

You're forgetting that Palpatine is the most powerful sith lord with the greatest display of force lightning in the mythos, and that The essential guide of characters stated that Vader was hit with palpatines killing bolts.

No one ever implied or hinted that Vader can't defend himself.

You did on several occasions.

[quote=ZooMzy;6887543

But I did miss the point, as that is a very weak comparison to say that Vader can handle himself in comparison to Stormtroopers, who could probably die from paper cuts.

Now that is a baseless and ridiculous assertion.

So basically you're saying the game and novel contradict each other now, considering the cutscenes clearly show Vader's susceptibility to lightning? Lol, whichever the source of canonicity is, I won't argue

Nope, because both the game and novel of the first TFU didn't show Vader succumbing to force lightning, a source which you ignore.

Doesn't matter, considering both are a direct contradiction to the movies anyway.

Lol, this is the typical Kid who plays kotor argument. "It contradicts the movie therefore its non canon!!!".

Guess what, the whole TOR timeline and its characters contradict the movies too! I guess we should all discredit the feats of Yoda, Mace, Sidious in the EU, because it contradicts what they didn't show in the movie!

You're not a lucasarts employee to decide whats canon or not kid.

I cut the majority of the points out, considering my point in regards to "Vader's susceptibility to lightning from the movies" point covers this.

You cut the majority of your point out because your point is baseless to begin with. You forget that it was Palpatine, whom according to several sources, one being the new essential guide to characters, stated that Palpatine was unleashing his most powerful bolts of lightning on Vader.

Not to mention that Palpatine has shown the greatest displays of force lightning in the mythos.

When did I say this?

Your first argument. "According to lore force storm can break tanks blah blah blah".

You do realize that sword play and overall combat in itself are not a brand new concept to Star Wars, correct? The psychological impact of fighting a single sword wielder versus a staff user is enough to give defeat in some fights.

Prove it with facts from sources that are approved canon. Again as i argued we don't even know how capable Nox is a lightsaber duelist, so even if assuming what you argue is true, that a bladed saber gives an edge, it wouldn't give Nox an edge at all.

Not to mention that it isn't even canon that he/she wields one.

Vader has already proven that duel ended wielders are a weakness,

Nope, you forget that he was simply facing darth maul, whom has been stated to be the dealiest apprentice in history and the same Darth maul that beat Sidious in a duel after a huge fit of rage.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b281/Frost327/Pictures/Vader%20vs%20Maul/SWT_09_01_Resurrection_036.jpg

^ Heck, look at this scan which you ignore, Vader is keeping up with Maul and his double bladed saber. If you actually had eyes to scan the comic without your immense bias, the only reason Maul is getting an edge over Vader is because of h2h combat, he's a master of Teras Kasi and been stated to be the sith lord with the best hand to hand combat skills in the mythos.

He's combining his lightsaber skills and BOTH teras Kasi to push Vader.

as he is too slow and heavy to keep up with the fast paced combat the dual ended saber forces the user to undertake.

Multiple sources prove you wrong, TFU 1 and 2, Rise of Darth Vader, Empire comics, Shadows of the empire, etc etc.

Im not denying he moves slower after his injuries and being put into a suit, but to make an exaggeration that he is so slow to the point he can't find anyone(seeing how all force users are faced paced) is a pretty ignorant statement.

If you truly are going to try and argue that fighting a single blade versus a dual ended lightsaber is the exact same (It sounds like you are saying that, IE, if someone uses "Ataru", it will be the same type of fight no matter the weapon. Which, is incredibly ignorant in regards to actual melee combat), then go do some more studying on actual melee combat.

LOL actual melee combat doesn't apply to Star wars unless you count the scene in A new Hope because that one was based off real swordsmanship unlike the rest of the films, tor trailers, TFU scenes which were all basically a flashy show based off choreography .

First off, a staff like the double bladed lightsaber will never work in real life because of the fact that grabbing parts of the "blade" is part of certain techniques to generate more swing and momentum, not to mention

Not to mention, its been stated in Path of destruction regardless of using different weapons, they all follow the same sequenece.

So your argument is invalid. Try again.

As no single book of SW is going to discount the difference between the different styles of weapons, considering that the fighting style changes dramatically based on the weapon

A point which you have yet to even prove, if no book is going to back you up, shut up and conced your point.

You haven't even proven 2 things -

1. That Nox uses a double bladed lightsaber

2. That Nox is a top end lightsaber duelist

The Inquistor storyline is open for interpretation because of this, meaning he can be a dual sided lightsaber wielder, or in fact, a Sorceror type similar to Palpatine. Either way though, confirmation is needed, but he would clearly be an adept and very powerful fighter in regards to his feats, despite the lack of confirmation with the forms.

If confirmation is needed, then until it is confirmed, concede

your argument, because it has no concrete evidence to back anything you try to argue.

No denial he/she is a great force user, but as i said, what do we know of Nox's lightsaber skills in actual detail? How do we know that Nox didn't simply overwhelm his/her opponents with sheer force display and not lightsaber combat? Its all open to interpretation.

And to argue that Nox is a vastly superior duelist to Vader on no basis of even actual confirmation of what type of lightsaber Nox is confirmed to use is the most ridiculous argument ever made up on this forum .

He either defeated his opponents using his capability with a lightsaber and the Force,

How do we know that? Considering its all gameplay.

which many are notable kills more powerful than Vader (Thanaton alone is enough of an argument),

Nox needed what? Several force ghosts to amplify his power just to face Thanaton?

or through mastery and power over the Force. My point there is that the melee version of Nox would be more than capable of defeating Vader, as he would basically be Maul with actual mastery over Force techniques.

Lol so you're comparing Nox to Maul now with nothing to back you up? We don't even know what kind of lightsaber Nox wields(not that it matters), let alone his/her lightsaber style, battle strategy and how good is his swordsmanship.

In fact i would argue that his/her lightsaber skills aren't great considering that more than half the SI's story was about gathering the spirits to incrase his force powers so nothing indicates that Nox is even close to a top tier lightsaber duelist.

Yet Maul wasn't showing any clear signs of struggle and quite easily pulled the advantage over Vader?

He had to include the fighting style of Teras Kasi(which maul has been stated to be one of the best in) which is h2h while dueling Vader at the same time, simply because he couldn't overwhelm him in sheer lightsaber combat.

You actually bring up another flaw in your theory that Vader is a capable duelist by this argument alone, actually: he was practically defeated by a simple change in combat style?

Not really a flaw, Bane got defeated in a saber duel by Kasim when he did the same thing. Dooku got annihilated by Anakin when he made the sudden and quick change in combat form(of course he was in a clear zone of mind as well).

Not to mention that Maul has proven to be one of the greatest saber duelists of all time, even beating Darth Sidious in a lightsaber duel in a fit of uncontrollable rage, so of course its no surprise that his change of style overwhelmed Vader.

So in reality, you are basically confirming that Vader, who you argue is a master of all 7 forms and is a much more capable duelist than a prime aged Dark Councilor, can't adjust to a sudden style change? Well, judging from the comment, here's the reason why:

We don't even know how capable Nox is with a lightsaber duelist, let alone what style he/she uses so him/her being able to swich a style is irrelevant.

Nox is a featless wonder as far as dueling skills go.

He is slow, as I have said multiple times, and is unable to keep up with the fast paced fighting style of a young and fast duelist.

Which i have disproven with several novels, comics and games.

You confirmed that with your comment admitting that Vader could not adjust to that sudden change, meaning Vader would lose to Nox in basic lightsaber combat alone, regardless of weapons.

I didn't confirm it, i simply stated that it was someone as skilled as Darth Maul, whom beat Sidious in a prior duel, was able to take Vader down.

Roan Shryne did the same thing to Vader in the novel Rise of Darth Vader, but because Roan wasn't a saber duelist on Vaders level despite being much quicker and more agile, his change of style did very little to throw Vader off and was beaten to a pulp.

Besides im going to start using your own argument against you. Nox has never been shown to defend against opponents who use the entire terrain against him/her and Vader has been shown to do this on multiple occasions from the movies, to the Eu that he can summon a telekinetic storm and throw literally whatever is on the environment against nox during the saber duel and crush him

Lol, I never said I don't like Vader. I just find it funny when people try to argue that a old and crippled man, lost in depression and anger is capable of competing against powerful Dark Side masters during an era that naturally creates a strong set of fighters from the competition between the two orders.

How exactly is Vader old and crippled? Hes roughly 42 years old by the time of the OT, id hardly call that old. And he has demonstrated to be agile and quick for someone his size and bulk on multiple occasions, even in the empire trikes back.

The fact that you barely even read up or care about any of Vaders accomplishments, trying to downplay his feats only shows you dislike him.

Which, as I have elaborated above, you actually disprove that comment above by your admittance that Vader was unable to adapt to Maul's sudden change in combat style.

It wasn't an admittance is you actually read.

You're the one that tried comparing a featless saber Nox on the skill level of Darth Maul without any proof, without even listing the lightsaber form that Nox has mastered(which has been shown to be none so far) or the confirmed facts of what kind of lightsaber Nox wields.

My point of "realism" comes from the feats of what Vader is capable of, actually. You know, where he doesn't have immunity in his suit because it is proven fact that indirect Force Lightning from Sidious actually short circuited his suit and thus, killed him?

Because Sidious displays the most powerful lightning in the Mythos? Because several sources stated that Vader got killed by Sidious most powerful barrage of lightning?

He's already shrugged off lightning on 2 occasions from another force user with the potential to surpass Sidious.

Umm, no you didn't? Because my point that Darth Nox is a powerhouse with the Force Walk ritual bindings in addition to his mastery over the Dark Side make him a more powerful version of Sidious, basically?

Wait, so now you're comparing him to Sidious? This is called fanboyism my friend, you ignore the facts, attempt to dismiss canon and try to compare your favourite character to the undisputed most powerful sith in the mythos.

How is Nox even considered a top contender when he had to absorb a couple of sith spirits to boost his/her power?

I can list down dozens of sources that even disprove your theory.

he Rebels were turning out to be more troublesome than many had expected. The Emperor had known it would be thus, of course; the resistance had not been a surprise to him. The Emperor was completely in concert with the dark side of the Force. He was the most powerful Sith to have ever existed.

-- Death Star, page 76.

"...Yoda could defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history."

-- The New Essential Chronology, page 84

Beyond the vision of the Jedi Knights, somewhere within the darkness, the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power bides his time. As his strength grows, his plans begin to shape the course of the galaxy, and his snares await the unsuspecting.

-- The Complete Visual Dictionary, page 72.

Page 109 from the Dark Empire sourcebook:

"Palpatine has risen from the dead. The most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived had returned."

Empire's End, one of the Ancient Sith spirits: "He gave up everything to the Dark Side long ago. He has become the greatest who ever lived. He is the strongest who ever lived....I say we give what he wishes."

Star Wars Insider, Kevin J. Anderson, upon asked if he ever intended his Sith to be stronger than the OT sith: No. Exar Kun, Naga Sadow and the others are on a firmly lower tier than Emperor Palpatine.

On TFN.net, official response to the strongest Sith: Palpatine at his peak.

Essential Chronology: the most powerful Sith who had ever lived, Emperor Palpatine had returned from the grave."

Not to mention, that Palpatine has been shown to be able to drain billions of lives on the planet byss, and his mere presence turning a once "lush and fertile world" into "one of the most powerful dark side nexus the galaxy had known".

He mind wiped billions of lives on Coruscant to keep the construction of the lusankya hidden and he was capable of summon Force storms(wormholes), basicallt wormholes that destroy the fabric of space and time and can do everything from wiping out entire fleets(which he did), to ravaging and ripping off a planets surface and transporting a being from across the galaxy.

So basically you're admitting your whole argument about Vader's capability is a contradiction, and thus, you are the only one getting upset over the fact that your "favorite character" isn't capable of winning?

Nope, its not a contradiction, im saying the whole of the SWU has so many inconsistencies but you just try to pin it on one character just to suit your argument.

You're the one whose upset your "favourite character" isnt winning. Heck my favourite character would be my own character, the Imperial agent or Luke Skywalker from the movies.

Secondly, you are making this baseless claim like the one above about how I'm playing favorites and trying to biasly downplay a character, yet you make comments like this?:

Yeah, because Nox needing different spirits just to face one sith lord, having no mention of his/her saber dueling capabilities and a raging fanboy like you, tries to exaggerate literally everything about him so of course i don't find Nox impressive when i look at the facts.

And on an unrelated note, my favorite character is Darth Maul before what they did to him in the Clone Wars. But nice try, I'm not that big of a fan of Nox, yet I'm capable of understanding he's/she's stronger than a contradictory Vader

You can lie all you want, but the fact that you're making up alot of things about Nox without even proving it with any source of canon shows you're just another fanboy.

Nox is not stronger than a "contradictory"(the whole of SW, even your inquisitor is) Vader according to what has been established

Looks like your baseless attack to claim I am arguing with bias just backfired heavily there bud. GG.

Not really, but nice try.

First off, talk about the kinds of baseless assumptions you are making in the face of getting stomped down for your joke of an argument?

Hey, you're the one thats getting stomped on, considering you have not offered a single shred of proof and your arguments constantly getting torn down. Dont live in denial.

Secondly, the movies actually emphasize the whole idea that Vader is weak after he turned to the Dark Side and lost to Obi-Wan.

From your point of view. George Lucas himself contradicts any claims you're making by stating that despite Vader losing most of his force potential, he is still 8 tenths the power of Sidious aka the most powerful sith lord in the galaxy.

He was beaten by an untrained Jedi kid,

You mean Luke skywalker, the next guy with the most powerful force potential. Lets not forget that Luke himself in a later novel stated that Vader was holding back on him the entire time and that even the movies itself made it look like Vader was conflicted.

died from indirect lightning shocks,

Palaptines lightning in which an outside canon source stated it was his most powerful volts(which already reduced 3 force users to ashes in a prior comic).

and fulfilled a prophecy from throwing someone over an edge.

The prophecy never stated that the chosen one had to destroy the sith in direct combat.

The whole appeal of the movies and the irony of the prophecy came from the fact that Vader was an unrealized potential, and emphasized the moral behind "It's not strength that changes your fate. It's the choices you make." That's why I think movie Vader is actually the best villain in SW and personally am a fan of.

This isn't helping your argument.

My disdain comes from the attempts the EU makes at actually fulfilling the potential Vader was never supposed to realize.

No it hasn't, because theres a new comic, called the clone wars infinities which actually does show Anakin realizing his potential when the father didn't wipe his vision memories on mortis, Anakin turns to the dark side and becomes so powerful that not even yoda and Sidious could beat him combined.

So your argument there is invalid.

But I don't argue from emotion, since I can logically argue against the EU since 90% of the feats created for Vader can be contradicted by the movies, such as the super tanking of lightning you're trying to make.

95% of the EU contradicts the movies. I can use your own arguments against you.

To start with, Lucas calls the prequel era the most powerful jedi order in SW lore, secondly, the jedi and the sith in the movies has never demonstrated the feats and powers they have in the EU in the movies(This applies to Sidous, Yoda, Mace etc etc). So by that kind of logic, the whole of the EU is contradictory and should be erased from canon.

Yoda was lifting mountains with the force in the old TCW series, Mace was force gripping 100 tons of a rock landslide in the shatterpoint novel, Sidious was summoning wormholes to destroy fleets, but because they have never shown these kind of feats in the movies and dont look capable of doign so, therefore it is non canon!

Even with this kind of logic, since the most powerful jedi in the movies couldn't do these feats, therefore the TOR, TOTJ, DE timeline all should cease because the feats shown in these series contradict what the movie shows!

But heres a sad fact i have to break to you, neither i and especially you, don't decide what is canon, so deal with it my friend

Your entire argument in regards to Vader in itself is a contradiction, because your whole point that Vader can tank lightning is disproven by the main source of canoncity: the movies. Where he dies from his suit short circuiting from INDIRECT lightning.

See the above, if we used your logic in this argument, then even our favourite game, the TOR timeline would contradict the movies therefore we should discredit everything shown in the games.

You also come out and actually admit that the EU is full of contradictions, which in itself, proves your argument about Vader's feats in the EU are contradictory as well.

Yes, therefore by your logic, we should declare anything in swtor non canon, because it too contradicts the feats that the most powerful sith and jedi do in the movies, which in comparison to what they can do in the EU and what the ancient sith and jedi can do is a huge contradiction.

Darth Nox, while isn't free of contradictions either, still can be considered more powerful due to the immense strength he gains from the Force Walk ritual, in addition to the fact that he is a clear master of the Dark Side of the Force as his status as a Dark Councilor.

See the above.

And I didn't even have to argue how TFU is actually a completely uncannonical source of information to draw from.

Its been aprooved by lucasarts, so no matter how much you try to argue, it is still canon

Scripted gameplay is game mechanics.

And when did I myself state I don't care about the rules of canon?

Yeah but the devs called it canon, that its an interactive cutscene so to speak.

I can't dig up the quote but i go by what i see on screen > the novel.

And lets forget where you said that, i been a dick head towards you and i apologize.

Selenial · October 27, 2013

SW_LeGenD?

Is that you buddeh?

Makoto_Shishio · October 27, 2013

SW_LeGenD?

Is that you buddeh?

Im his twin

ZooMzy · October 27, 2013

Ignorance, hmm? You could not be more wrong. Also, I have read your posts. The logic behind them is heavily flawed. Those flaws should be obvious to you. Perhaps it is you who is ignorant?

Yet you won't type out these flaws, and respond that I am ignorant for not seeing the flaws.

That's like if I decided to look at you and make the claim that you are stupid, and ignorant for not realizing you are stupid. So no, I am not ignorant but you are possibly proving that you are with your lack of creating an actual counter.

1. Funny that's exactly the same set of scans I read and reached a different interpretation. Ultimately comics are very subjective things, as still images allow the reader to make him own interpretations on certain aspects. Your use of words and phrases such as "lucky break" and "struggled to keep pace" are simply coloring the comic based on your opinions, and I expect I have done the same. Discussing that will get us nowhere.

However what is certainly objective is that Maul did not 'land blow after blow'. I can't see any evidence of that. He landed one kick, and one lightsaber cut. The former is irrelevant as Nox is not a master of Teras Kasi and the latter is also irrelevant as it failed to phase Vader in the slightest. On the other hand Vader has shown himself capable of severing a saberstaff in half. Is Nox a master of Jar'Kai as well? I don't think so, at that point the advantage disappears into thin air, and Nox unfortunately hasn't made much of a dent.

Considering that, again, Maul is dancing and maneuvering around Vader, taunting and berating him the entire time while Vader struggles to respond to half of what Maul is doing? It is a logical interpretation that Maul is then toying with Vader, as he lands two concrete blows with the capability of talking and berating an opponent. You can not trash talk another without showing effort if you are not in control of the fight, and Maul furthers the interpretation that he easily held an advantage over Vader in his agility when he stopped talking, got a little mad for the breakthrough Vader made by slashing his saber in half which can be seen by his facial features, then subdued Vader within a very quick set of strikes.

It is illogical to assume, however, that Vader is evenly paced with Maul, as the fight would've been much more drawn out and two sided if they were fighting evenly. Apart from the surprise killing blow, Maul had not taken a single hit from Vader.

So while interpretation is key, this is also a point where you can't actually argue Vader handled Maul well when Maul had Vader on his knees in a relatively short set of moves, and where you can clearly see Maul toying with Vader for half of the fight.

That is if we assume Nox is in anyway comparable to Maul, which he is not. They are completely different archetypes. I suspect that Nox would refrain from engaging Vader in pure lightsaber combat and instead attempt to make some distance so he can use his Force abilities. Let's not start thinking that Nox is Maul, cause Maul lost.

Ultimately the only thing we can draw from this is that Vader can handle saberstaffs, and that unless Nox is more skilled than Maul his lightsaber will get cut in half, given that was what happened in this duel. I also don't feel the saberstaff can take the credit for landing that hit, I think that's entirely down to Maul's skill as a duelist, hence why I feel we should leave this alone. Because in the end Maul and Nox are not one and the same, they are different.

No, you can not draw from the conclusion that Vader can handle dual ended saber wielders, because he has only fought against one and he clearly was not in control of the fight.

Secondly, trying to anticipate what the strategy a fictional character is going to attempt isn't a sound argument. To logically argue who is going to win the match up if those two actually met and fought is not something you can realistically argue, as anything can happen in a fight.

But if you look in terms of who has the advantages and who holds more strategies that the enemy can't adjust to, then you can determine who will pull the win in the most scenarios.

2. What Maul was using is called Dun Moch, he was not toying with Vader in the sense he wasn't giving it his all. I expect he was, Dun Moch is a verbal tactic where you taunt your enemy into revealing weaknesses. Why did Vader remain silent? Because it wasn't working, Vader was completely unphased by the attack and just ignored him.

Ok, this is how fighting works:

Whether or not his style of combat in regards to using trash talk as a method of demoralization is irrelevant, because you can not implement that type of strat against your enemy unless you are in control of the fight. IE, you can't say to your opponent that he is getting beaten when you're gasping for air and not holding an advantage over your enemy, as that type of mental strategy backfires unless you maintain the right scenario.

Which Maul successfully did. He was in control of the fight, he easily outpaced Vader in lightsaber combat and held the advantage. Thus began his real attempt to downtalk Vader, which didn't work and Vader cut his saber in half. Thus, Maul stopped the mental attacks, and decided to just put Vader down quickly and end the battle.

Vader was at Maul's mercy because of this. Which, since Vader is supposed to be a master of saber combat, means he bested Vader in another area besides skill since someone of Vader's caliber shouldn't have lost so quickly to other lightsaber forms. You claim he has a weakness against dual wielding sabers, but from what I saw in TFU if that is your source of information from the Galen Marek clone, he fought off that clone with out an indication of it being a problem in a similar manner that you are discrediting the dual ended saber wielders.

Meaning that in both cases, Vader's main weakness originates from the actual fact of agility and speed, not directly the type of form being used. Which also, by design, the dual ended lightsaber and staff weapons naturally emphasize the usage of quick and fast paced movements, while dual wielding sabers are more designed to give an advantage in creating another weapon to worry about.

3. A blow to the head isn't going to take Vader down, just after he endured a blow to the gut and just got up. I expect for that reason Vader was feigning weakness, he could apply the exact same tactic to Nox, or just turn around and blow him away with a Force wave. That or he would not capitulate in the first place. But again, Maul isn't Nox.

Of course not. The case in point is that he never used that tactic on Maul, and if Nox was dancing around him around in a similar manner as Maul, that technique wouldn't work for the same reason it didn't on Maul.

Which is ironic, considering Nox would be a much tougher challenge in terms of overpowering in the Force, considering he couldn't draw upon the Force to beat a Sith Lord who was trained as a weapon, rather than an actual Sith Lord.

4. Game classes are a part of Star Wars Lore. Yes Sith Assassins exist, yes Sith Inquisitors exist, yes Sith Sorcerers exist. Allow me to quote the SWTOR Encyclopedia:

"To be a Sith requires strength, confidence, and sheer power. But to become a Sith Inquisitor, one must embrace the dark side and wield its destructive power with unparalleled cunning. While other SIth fight amongst themselves, inquisitors survey the battlefield, devise sinister plans to seize power, and manipulate enemies into warring with each other."

This, written from an in-universe perspective, clearly establishes the Sith Inquisitor as a role within the ranks of the Sith Order. Much like the titles of Sith Maurader, Sith Assassin etc. where ascribed in-universe to individuals. The Encylopedia also labels Darth Jadus, Lord Vindican, Darth Baras and Naga Sadow as Sith Inquisitors. Given that they are NPCs we can only assume that these are not in-game classes, but actual canon roles within the Order.

"Mastery over the dark side requires raw talent and an indomitable spirit. Sith inquisitors draw on their inner passions and dedicate themselves to one facet of the dark arts in their pursuit of ultimate power."

This establishes that Sith Inquisitors make a decision to pursue different paths, much like Jedi Consular's choose to be historians, shadows etc. These choices are defined as the Sith Sorcerer and Sith Assassin. The latter of which their was a Pyramid dedicated to. You can look that up as well if you like. One would assume that if Nox became a Sith Assassin, he would become a member of the Pyramid.

Now if you have some canonical evidence that disputes this, such as a quote from a dev or a sourcebook. Then please provide it. However your own personal opinions on the matter will not suffice in terms of canon.

The discussion of whether or not these pyramids existed has been decided, but again, you miss my overall counter to your argument. I am referring to Nox's position on the Dark Council, where he is the head of the Sphere of Ancient Knowledge. The Pyramids you listed are irrelevant, as the Inquisitor storyline is up for interpretation as whether Nox used a double sided lightsaber and fought with a mix of melee skill and mastery of the Force, or just a straight study of the Force. It is clear he put more focus on the Force, but there is nothing that contradicts the idea that Nox also did not study lightsaber combat to a degree. Which, if he did wield a double ended lightsaber, he can easily be argued to have some degree of knowledge in the field that is beyond novice level.

You are also making claims that double bladed lightsaber = assassin, when in reality, I am claiming Nox can plausibly be a master in both melee combat and usage of the Force. Just as it is reasonable to assume Darth Maul is also a master of the Dark Side of the Force, despite the complete lack of any information/sources confirming such.

Meaning, that it is very plausible that Vader can be defeated by an amateur dual ended saber wielder, due to the fast paced combat the weapon naturally creates. Which is also plausible to assume can be, given the storyline is up for that type of interpretation.

Regardless of that, by pursuing the role of an Inquisitor, Nox dedicated himself to study of the Force as opposed to lightsaber combat - much like Jedi Consulars do. On the other hand Vader, formerly Anakin, was trained as a Jedi Knight and dedicated himself primarily to study of lightsaber combat. On this evidence alone (which in all honesty is all we have - if you have other evidence please provide it) Vader is logically the superior duelist.

See above. By that logic, Maul shouldn't have easily defeated Vader if he was that capable of a duelist, as the skill level between the two is very minuscule, and I believe EU Vader is actually supposed to be more skilled than Maul, if I remember the information correctly.

Which, you can look at the defeat in either 2 ways:

1) Vader isn't actually that great of a duelist.

2) Vader's weakness is in fast and agile opponents.

5. Vader has kept pace and defeated agile opponents before such as the Dark Woman among other Jedi. Heck, he took on eight Jedi, most of which were masters, who surrounded him, and he still won. Think about it, he doesn't have to move, all he has to do is pivot and react. And Vader was said to be able to move as fast as Master Yoda, he may not be able to jump and flip but he's more than capable of withstanding rapid flurries from multiple angles. And again, any blows that do get through he simply tanks. None of the blows Maul dealt to Vader were serious, Maul failed to defeat him. Vader can endure a ridiculous amount of injury. That needs to be taken into account. Even beating Vader in lightsaber combat does not = win.

Dueling is not the same as fighting multiple opponents at once, firstly. The entire mindset of fighting one person alone versus multiple enemies are two different types of mentality, where it is possible that one can be a better "1v2/3/4/5" type of fighter than an actual 1v1 duelist.

Secondly, what exactly is the scenario here? Did Vader actually beat these examples of fighters easily or struggled immensely? Not to mention, he can suddenly move as fast as Yoda and has very quick reactions when he is bested by a novice child and can't even keep pace with Maul enough to allow a critical blow and fall short in a sudden change in combat form?

6. Again Maul didn't just get serious, he changed style. And in multiple scenarios Jar'Kai has been shown to phase opponents and drive them back. For example when Anakin used Jar'Kai against Dooku, and more stunningly when Kas'im used Jar'Kai against Bane the tables turned completely. Nox can't do that, once his saber is severed he's down to one, and how well is Nox going to hold up after that? That is what we should be asking.

This is relatively a small change though, as a shift in control in the fight never occurred. Maul went from dancing around Vader and toying with him to flat out forcing him to his knees in a matter of seconds. Galen Marek's example, that you brought up, was not an indication to it being a huge factor as Vader held somewhat of a ground in the face of the style.

However, he was clearly struggling with the dual ended lightsaber combat due to the fact that he allowed hits to slide through against a (supposedly) equal saber combatant who wasn't fighting very seriously and focusing more on using physiological warfare. That alone, is enough to indicate Vader had trouble with the type of fighting presented naturally from the aspect of a dual ended lightsaber: quick and fast responses, as the second blade is more of a quick addition to make most melee strikes a one-two type of result.

That being said, Nox as an amateur can do more than equally compete with Vader, having an advantage in saber combat alone if he is at least an amateur or well versed user. Which, like Maul's expectancy as a Dark Side user being trained by Sidious, is plausible if you interpret the storyline as such.

7. I was referring to Galen Marek, he had potential to become the most powerful Force User ever. He moved Star Destroyers, he is immensely powerful - and it was that power that led him to defeating Vader. Not just because he was fast and had lightning, because you need much more than that to take him down. And Maul is not stronger than Vader, all we have to look at is Force feats to see that Vader outclasses him exponentially. You underestimate the level of raw power he wields, he brought down entire buildings. Sidious kept him around for a reason you know.

No, I understand the type of power he wields. Crushing buildings and holding mastery over the Force is one thing, but to claim he is that much better because he was able to fight against the mostly untrained power house that was Galen Marek?

It was mostly a match up between power versus technique between those two, which is why Vader was able to compete for a short bit. However, Vader is fighting against an opponent you are also discounting in two scenarios:

1) A dual sided lightsaber wielding master of the Dark Side, where he is basically a less skillful Maul but has a massive increase to him in comparison with the Force.

2) A Force User similar to the style of Sidious.

Even then, you are discounting the power Nox wields from the Force Walk ritual, as 3 Darths where one of the was the second in command of Ludo Kressh's power base and a Jedi Master that fought in the Mando/Jedi Civil War in addition to his own power is enough to topple Thanton easily. The art of competition between the different orders during the TOR era is also something that seems to be discredited, as an order like the original time period where the Jedi are looking for two specific Sith characters are not going to be as combat capable and mentally prepared as Darths and Sith Lords constantly at battle with each other in power plays as well as being at war with the Jedi.

While Nox's raw output in the Force is another matter, it is unneccesary to argue because Vader is fighting against an opponent who is much more knowledgeable over the Force than he is. Technique, which was Vader's only advantage to Galen in regards to the Force

8. The entire Sith knowledge of the Sith Empire? I raise you every scrap of Sith knowledge ever known, at the feet of Sidious he had an immense well of knowledge at his disposal. But his mastery over the basics suffices. What good is a broad range of flashy powers if Vader can counter them all in the same way? Raw power is what is important here. That said you've been so caught up in Maul's capabilities, that you've failed to elaborate on Nox's. Who as far as I'm aware has only mastered telekinesis, Force lightning, Force healing and Force drain.

He is the head of the Sphere of Ancient Knowledge, responsible for guarding the secrets of the Empire has uncovered and is basically the overseer of the archives.

Meaning, Nox has direct access to the entire database of techniques and usages that Vitate's Empire has, which is undoubtedly more so than Sidious' personal library. Which is also something that isn't a very accurate judgement of Vader's mastery of the Dark Side, considering that Sidious would have withheld quite a bit of information from Vader anyway.

So no, Vader's technique and skill with the Dark Side would be very small in comparison to Nox.

Anyway clearly you don't have much value for Vader's power. This video provides a broad analysis of his abilities.

See above.

ZooMzy · October 27, 2013

95% of the EU contradicts the movies. I can use your own arguments against you.

To start with, Lucas calls the prequel era the most powerful jedi order in SW lore, secondly, the jedi and the sith in the movies has never demonstrated the feats and powers they have in the EU in the movies(This applies to Sidous, Yoda, Mace etc etc). So by that kind of logic, the whole of the EU is contradictory and should be erased from canon.

Yoda was lifting mountains with the force in the old TCW series, Mace was force gripping 100 tons of a rock landslide in the shatterpoint novel, Sidious was summoning wormholes to destroy fleets, but because they have never shown these kind of feats in the movies and dont look capable of doign so, therefore it is non canon!

Even with this kind of logic, since the most powerful jedi in the movies couldn't do these feats, therefore the TOR, TOTJ, DE timeline all should cease because the feats shown in these series contradict what the movie shows!

But heres a sad fact i have to break to you, neither i and especially you, don't decide what is canon, so deal with it my friend

Cutting out the majority of your "argument" to the point here that you basically use to crash your entire argument.

I would completely agree, 95% of the EU is really just attempts to make the original characters of SW have more powerful feats for specific writer ego measuring proportions. It directly contradicts the movie characters' story purposes and overall capabilities, so yes, I would agree that almost every feat Vader has accomplished in the EU is not canon.

But your argument that timelines such as TOR don't exist because the feats original characters have in the EU suddenly means they can't exist? The entire storyline that TOR, KOTOR, and etc. take place in have no mention in the original films, meaning that they can co exist amongst the films legitimately because they aren't the same characters that in the films are shown incapable of performing some feats.

I find that to be logical, as to say these characters are the best duelists, masters of the Force in combat, and overall are more powerful in an age where it really comes down to about 3 actual Force users in the galaxy at one point, to an era like TOR where you have two prime orders of the Sith and Jedi where there are literally two factions at war to enhance the capability of warriors based on the concept of escalation that the competition in war brings?

Yeah, that's plausible. So no, your point that these eras can't exist are incorrect, as unlike the expanded chronicles of Vader and other original film characters, they are successful additions to the SW universe that aren't contradicted by the films.

Darth Vader vs Darth Nox

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