Bioware's monday morning.

[ImpactHound]

If you're not going to add anything constructive, what's the point? Just to vent? Your feedback is useless if it doesn't include any sort of constructive idea or solution.

 

Just saying, "This sucks," accomplishes nothing.

 

Not nothing, but it's one of the least useful ways of communicating between customer and business. At least it points at what was unsatisfactory(usually).

[Rafaman]

Most likely, yeah...the customer is just blowing off steam - it's therapeutic at times. I'd rather a customer "blow off steam" and remain a customer than to have someone just leave without a word.

 

A fair point. And in fact, I'm sure that the forums serve that purpose very well. But, the forums also allow for constructive feed back which is necessary. There is a fine line between constructive feedback and abuse however. We see the line crossed all the time by some more than others.

[mmjarec]

Actually saying something sucks is not irrelevant. Companies pay phone solicitors millions of dollars for access to profiles that indicate what sucks to a certain kind of consumer

 

If you find no relevance in someones opinion of your product or features of your product you should not go into business for yur professions

[Eillack]

I mean, you wake up, hit your work desk on a monday morning, which hits like a truck for everyone, and first thing you got to do is go through the piles of whining, entitlment, swearing, and all sorts of messages, polite or not, which all bring down to the same message " your game sucks , blah blah blah "

 

Give'em a break.

 

So...your thread?

[Arkerus]

/Agree.

 

If I were the PM on the continued development of SWTOR.. the last thing I would want is my devs spending time combing the forums and responding to threads. And when I say this I am NOT saying that comments in the forum should not be harvested and fed back to the devs....only that there are efficient and effective methods to do this that do not dilute developer cycles (which should be focused on actual content work).

 

The proper method (a method that appears to be in fact applied by Bioware) is to have people focused on communications with the forum membership (ie: Eric's team) who have a responsibility to capture key feedback and push it to the appropriate people on the development team for further review and follow-up. And, there will be times when it is in fact appropriate for a dev to come and respond directly.. and that too happens from my observation

 

All the forum warriors here read that interview and translated it into this:

 

"RK said I can wail and moan on the forums about gameplay that doesn't even make sense in a themepark MMO and I am right. I am the customer and I am always right. See this? That's me being right. This is my new haircut. Not know chief, I'm in the forum ZONE. GIVE ME MY MOISTURE FARM SIMULATOR!"

Edited October 21, 2013 by Arkerus

[ImpactHound]

Just to put it into perspective, I've been trying to push forward a bug fix in my company's username/password login system where you can use special characters in the password on our website and it SHOULD work in our phone app, but the app refuses special characters. Not only have I brought it to the attention of developers and supervisors 3 tiers above me, but I've been interviewed directly by IT to pinpoint the exact conditions and paramaters of the issue and how it should be fixed... and 2 months later it still isn't in a deployment build. It will be when a friend of the CEO or something mentions it at a golf game as something that affected them, you can bet dollars to donuts on that.

 

If BioWare is anything like my company, it's too big for the problems to get to the solution guys.

Edited October 21, 2013 by ImpactHound

[mmjarec]

Just to put it into perspective, I've been trying to push forward a bug fix in my company's username/password login system where you can use special characters in the password on our website and it SHOULD work in our phone app, but the app refuses special characters. Not only have I brought it to the attention of developers and supervisors 3 tiers above me, but I've been interviewed directly by IT to pinpoint the exact conditions and paramaters of the issue and how it should be fixed... and 2 months later it still isn't in a deployment build. It will be when a friend of the CEO or something mentions it at a golf game as something that affected them, you can bet dollars to donuts on that.

 

If BioWare is anything like my company, it's too big for the problems to get to the solution guys.

 

^ what he said

[CosmicKat]

People need to get over this idea that "the Devs" are a bunch of teenagers who are so emotionally immature as to actually give two ***** what us forum users have to say.

 

They are adults. They can separate legitimate complaints/suggestions from actual teen rants.

 

Given the fact that many of them are also likely to be veteran gamers working under the direction of non-gamer decision makers, it's also highly likely that they agree with many of the complaints/suggestions that fill the boards.

[ImpactHound]

People need to get over this idea that "the Devs" are a bunch of teenagers who are so emotionally immature as to actually give two ***** what us forum users have to say.

 

They are adults. They can separate legitimate complaints/suggestions from actual teen rants.

 

Given the fact that many of them are also likely to be veteran gamers working under the direction of non-gamer decision makers, it's also highly likely that they agree with many of the complaints/suggestions that fill the boards.

 

I think the Indie Game Dev movie gave people a false idea of how developers act. I.E. Phil FIsh and Notch being big babies about everything.

[mmjarec]

Arent any type of indie people emo hipsters?

[BJWyler]

People need to get over this idea that "the Devs" are a bunch of teenagers who are so emotionally immature as to actually give two ***** what us forum users have to say.

 

They are adults. They can separate legitimate complaints/suggestions from actual teen rants.

 

Given the fact that many of them are also likely to be veteran gamers working under the direction of non-gamer decision makers, it's also highly likely that they agree with many of the complaints/suggestions that fill the boards.

 

Something you said that I can actually agree with 100%!! Hence my re-quoting of Josh Foreman's post from another forum. Words of wisdom that should be considered if players actually want honest dialogue and truthfully want to offer constructive feedback.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=6872970&postcount=33

[Lumenadducere]

Except that you need to read it in context. Mr Koster is not an advocate of ranty, bratty, non-constructive feedback. His point is that feedback that is constructive (even if highly critical in nature) is valuable and people who receive feedback should listen to said feedback (which by the way should not be confused as meaning they must embrace said feedback without thought and purpose).

 

His blog on feedback from games will now be used out of context by every game hater on the planet for the next decade... as we have already seen here in this thread.

 

Thank you. There's a world of difference between clear, constructive feedback that's analytic and the useless, whiny complaining that most people on the forums spew. Somehow people don't understand that going "BioWare this sucks fix it now I hate your game it's the worst ever" is a waste of time. I'm all for voicing your opinion, but there are ways to do it that are useful and ways to do it that aren't. The example above (which is prevalent in almost every MMO forum I frequent) is all too common. And yes, it's the internet, people are jerks and have the right to be jerks, etc. But if you actually want things to change you need to provide good feedback with analysis and thought, not just spew rage at the keyboard.

[mmjarec]

Does it really matter what kind of feedback it is if they dont reply to either?

[BJWyler]

And yes, it's the internet, people are jerks and have the right to be jerks, etc.

 

The first statement is correct. The second statement, however is incorrect, no matter how much those jerks may wish it to be otherwise.

 

Does it really matter what kind of feedback it is if they dont reply to either?

 

It always matters, because constructive feedback will get you farther than combative feedback - that's just human nature. The problem is the expectation that a reply is required, entitled, or necessary. It is not. It should be enough that, should the feedback truly be constructive, the job has been done. If the feedback is feasible, then it will be considered. If not, then it won't. If said feedback is common enough that a great many of the people echo it, then it would be a courtesy for the devs to address it at the conclusion of their own review and tests of said feedback, but again, isn't entitled or required.

[mmjarec]

Does it really matter if its constructive to them rather than a rant if they dont reply to either? Its like. If a tree falls in the woods type thing

[GalacticKegger]

I concur. But legitimate, organized, and fair feedback for the improvement of the game should still stand.

Therein lies the overriding concern. Legitimate, organized, and fair feedback for the improvement of the game comprises but a morsel of all negative feedback. The lion's share is flagrant, derisive, illegitimate/fabricated and/or unfairly exaggerated. However, I will give its purveyors props for being organized. They are VERY organized. Edited October 21, 2013 by GalacticKegger

[BJWyler]

Does it really matter if its constructive to them rather than a rant if they dont reply to either? Its like. If a tree falls in the woods type thing

 

Nothing to do with the tree falling analogy. We know that the community team reads the forums - at the very least the warnings, infractions, locked, and deleted threads are point in case. Whether you want to believe that or not, ultimately has no bearing on the matter (refer to the Josh Foreman post I have quoted previously). The message is seen, and so my statements in the post above still stand. Ultimately, there is a right way of doing things and a wrong way of doing things. I am of the belief that it is always better to do the right thing, even if the reward for doing so is not immediately apparent.

Edited October 22, 2013 by BJWyler

[mmjarec]

Therein lies the overriding concern. Legitimate, organized, and fair feedback for the improvement of the game comprises but a morsel of all negative feedback. The lion's share is flagrant, derisive, illegitimate/fabricated and/or unfairly exaggerated. However, I will give its purveyors props for being organized. They are VERY organized.

 

You say improvement of the game as if they actually read, listen or impliment player feeeback which they dont or else sssp wouldnt be pvp they did it as a shortcut because they didnt have the chops to do it pve

[Sir-Coffee]

"People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous."

 

"They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is. Especially watch out for the ones who tell you that nobody understands your genius.

 

Honestly, this is going to sound horrible, but self-doubt is one of your most powerful tools for craftsmanship. None of the designers you admire feel self-confident about their work in that way. None of them think that they are awesome. They all suffer from impostor complexes the size of the Titanic."

 

 

 

"Everyone who dislikes your work is right."

 

"This is the hardest pill to swallow. I’ve never gotten a piece of feedback that was wrong. You see, you can’t deny a player their unique experience. Whatever they felt, was true. For them. And something in your work triggered it.

 

It is useless, and worse, actually self-defeating, to attempt to deny the critique. Sure, there are sometimes reviews that seem spiteful, unfair, and the rest. But the vast majority of the time, people are giving their honest reaction.

 

And the bottom line is, you put the game out there in order to get reactions. If it were not for reactions, you could have just kept the game in your drawer and gotten everything you needed out of it."

 

- Raph Koster

http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/#more-13450

 

 

 

.

 

^ This.

[BJWyler]

^ This.

 

This:

Except that you need to read it in context. Mr Koster is not an advocate of ranty, bratty, non-constructive feedback. His point is that feedback that is constructive (even if highly critical in nature) is valuable and people who receive feedback should listen to said feedback (which by the way should not be confused as meaning they must embrace said feedback without thought and purpose).

 

His blog on feedback from games will now be used out of context by every game hater on the planet for the next decade... as we have already seen here in this thread.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You say improvement of the game as if they actually read, listen or impliment player feeeback which they dont or else sssp wouldnt be pvp they did it as a shortcut because they didnt have the chops to do it pve

 

and this:

Josh Foreman’s Tips for Constructive Feedback:

 

1. It’s most helpful if you state your request or actionable item at the top. Then your reasons below. This helps us find and reference your post, pass it around for discussion, etc.

 

2. Don’t assume the reason that things are the way they are due to developer incompetence, laziness, apathy, stubbornness, greed, selfishness, lust or any of the other deadly sins. There are other possibilities beside developer personal defects. “Just” changing one thing usually has ramifications on other things that are hard to anticipate. An MMO is an incredibly complex web of interdependencies, and tweaking any individual part runs the risk of breaking many other parts. That’s why we don’t typically jump to instant ‘fixes’ (even though it’s tempting!) and why things that seem like obvious problems can take a lot longer to address than many would intuitively think they should. There is no MAKE IT WORK button that we refuse to push out of spite. Even if that were the case, it just doesn’t make sense to insult the party you are requesting something from. In what part of the real world does that ever work? No one wants to ‘slap you in the face’ or make the game less fun. We love you guys, and are thrilled that people play our game!

 

3. Don’t assume that we can just rearrange resources to work on your particular issue. Most of our teams are very specialized. It takes a long time to build the experience necessary to be a good productive member of the PvP, Story, Systems, or any other team. Just because we have X programmers working on bug fixes and Y working on Gameplay improvements, doesn’t mean we can arbitrarily move those numbers around. It’s just not that simple.

 

4. Please stop calling us liars when we fail to implement something we intended to months ago, but for some technical, balance, or other reason found it to be untenable. We can’t be very open about our plans if every word we say is taken as a contractual obligation. Imagine if every word you said to your friends were recorded and played back at the most inopportune time in order to make you look like a fool. You’d probably clam up pretty quickly. Making an MMO, ... requires… experimenting. Requires making plans, following through, finding dead ends, back-tracking and trying something else. Sometimes that means that we will state a clear goal, test it internally and find out it just won’t work. The idea that this means we don’t have a clear vision is wrong. There is a difference between a core vision for our design principles, and the implementation of specific systems. We are very clear about the mountain we want to scale, but whether we do it in 4×4, on foot, with a grappling hook, or a hot air balloon are all contingent on the terrain we discover as we progress.

 

5. You are not “all players”. Please stop saying “Players want X” just because you want X. The fact is that players want X, Y, Z, and the rest of the alphabet, and most of those desires conflict with each other. And I guarantee you, anything that the vast majority of the players want, we (as players of our own game) also want. If you don’t understand why something the vast majority of players and the devs want is not implemented, see the above points 2-4. I have a people-pleaser mentality, so this is one of the hardest pills for me to swallow as a developer. I want EVERYONE to be happy. Unfortunately, the rules of the real world make that impossible.

 

So there you go. That’s my advice. I really believe that devs and players can work together in a healthy way. And this is my advice for making that a reality. Thanks for reading!

Edited October 22, 2013 by BJWyler

[mmjarec]

Its not dogging them if they themselves admit its beyond their capacity

[Arkerus]

Its not dogging them if they themselves admit its beyond their capacity

If someone comes up to you and says they can't do something and you keep asking them to do it, that's the exact "dogging" someone to do something. They can't do it and have explained its not happening. Asking again is the definition of insanity.

 

What do you think is going to happen? Bioware is going to come back and go "oh sorry, were making space PvE now".

 

Not gonna happen right now buddy. Get over it.

 

We might see something in a major expansion late in the game's life. Maybe.

Edited October 22, 2013 by Arkerus

[The_Grand_Nagus]

If someone comes up to you and says they can't do something and you keep asking them to do it, that's the exact "dogging" someone to do something. They can't do it and have explained its not happening. Asking again is the definition of insanity.

 

What do you think is going to happen? Bioware is going to come back and go "oh sorry, were making space PvE now".

 

Not gonna happen buddy. Get over it.

 

We might see something in a major expansion late in the game's life. Maybe.

 

They didnt say they couldnt do it, they said it would be a lot of work. You can read the quote here:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=690995

 

A lot of work is not the same thing as not being able to do it.

[BJWyler]

They didnt say they couldnt do it, they said it would be a lot of work. You can read the quote here:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=690995

 

A lot of work is not the same thing as not being able to do it.

 

And thusly would require more time. I am a PvE player by nature (have been for over 30 years). I am quite all right with Galactic Starfighter 1.0 being a PvP game. Better to get vanilla out now to entice people with the flavor and add the toppings later. You know, that's the great thing about games - especially MMOs - they can continue to evolve and grow over time.

 

I can't count the number of times that things that weren't possible in a game a launch became possible as the technology in the industry continues to improve. Heck, didn't they say that Chat Bubbles have moved up on the Wall of Crazy?

Edited October 22, 2013 by BJWyler

[Arkerus]

They didnt say they couldnt do it, they said it would be a lot of work. You can read the quote here:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=690995

 

A lot of work is not the same thing as not being able to do it.

 

Maybe you didn't read my post.

 

I said we might see it later. I was talking about not doing it RIGHT NOW. You mince a lot of words to mak points you don't need to make. I know exactly what they said. I've read it 50 times today thanks to people reporting it.