If Vengence gets Overwhelm, then Carnage should get Unstoppable, its only fair right?

[Lafay]

Because you can't punt the Jugg before the third Ravage blow (the one that does most damage), right?

 

Well, this isn't the easiest thing to time, that's for sure, any amount of lag and your screwed.

[Xanas]

Look, as much as it's unfair to you, sorcs are already dying if the other team so much as sneezes at them. Frankly, this won't be even so much as a nail in that coffin, and Vengeance deserves SOMETHING after literal years of neglect.

 

Unstoppable is only truly useful for guaranteeing the start a master strike, making being the first one to leap into a crowd very slightly less suicidal, and surprising people who'd forgotten your spec existed when they try to instinctively stun the Jugg leaper and watch it bounce off.

 

20 secs on that push you guys have... Use that ability and stop the last hit on MS. its all you need. Now shut up.

[Vember]

After all, it's 30 meters

 

You should have stopped your little rant right there.

[Helig]

Why am I not surprised...

 

First they make Ravage uninterruptable...Because, a class that has only ONE major DPS cast, and even that is a CHANNEL, like PT Flame Thrower/Ravage. BW: Yep, needs interrupt protection. Of course, Mercenary doesn't need interrupt protection on their major channeled ability (Unload). Of course not. After all, it's 30 meters, and our beloved Juggernauts only have 3 possible gap closers (leap->push->leap->guardian leap), with grand total of 3 interrupts (2x leap + push), an interrupt ability, and possibly 2 stuns. Oh, and let's not forget the possible total CC immunity to everything after leap. That's 5-6 interrupt abilities on one class. Together with ability pushback...

 

Now even the CC immunity is not enough...Yep, needs a root to that Ravage too!

 

Everything BW has ever done in this game has been biased towards making melee DPS unavoidable. Like making Smash more instant because it was totally too hard to land before. Let's keep Mercenary pushback with over 1 second delay though.

 

Seems fair.

 

Thanks BW.

Vengeance is the easiest melee DPS for me to kite on my ranged characters. Stop being awful.

 

Your forum name is awfully ironic, as well. "Easy way".

Edited October 19, 2013 by Helig

[Fozy]

If sentinels get unremitting, then Guardians should get "guarded By the Force"...the trade off can go all night...

[easeyway]

Vengeance is the easiest melee DPS for me to kite on my ranged characters. Stop being awful.

 

Your forum name is awfully ironic, as well. "Easy way".

 

How about you stop making bad melee DPS players an example of how good you yourself or your class may be. If you have to kite with a class that has channelled/casted abilities (like Commando), you are losing DPS. Losing DPS means you are not a very good DPS. You're better off playing a VG Tactics, kiting the Vengeance jugg, while maintaining 100% of your DPS.

 

Also, how many successful arena teams are there with a ranged DPS?

 

How many use Melee?

 

Yeah, you can maybe hard counter 2 smash with 2 lightning sorcs, but get beaten by every team that uses a VG DPS, because they can just burst the bubble from range. What can you hard counter with 2 Commandos/Mercs?

 

And, if you were talking about normal warzones, then that's totally different.

 

 

Something for you to think about:

 

The more players there are against each other (4v4->8v8->16v16? and so on), the more effective range becomes.

 

Why?

 

Because ten ranged casters can all focus one target in 30m area, and swap to any target instantly without requiring movement inside that area.

 

Melee cannot. Melee can't focus another target after having used a gap closer.

 

So, ranged are better off in 8v8 than in 4v4, and since there's still 8v8 in the game, ranged will never have place in 4v4 arenas, because that would make them overpowered in 8v8.

 

Now, snipers are a slight exception to this rule, as they have cover. They have the best of both worlds. The range, and the ability to keep DPS in melee range as well. Not to mention the mobility due to the roll.

Edited October 19, 2013 by easeyway

[Savej]

Not no but hell no. First off its a bad idea for juggs. This was a quick response to a less desirable spec that was unnecessary and unimaginative. No one in the jugg community wanted this. I would rather have stolen yalls 9k screams then that.

 

I wanted it and it was suggested on the boards a few weeks ago. There have even been balance "experts" on vengeance claiming that vengeance always had it (who had to be corrected).

 

It's not a "bad idea" for juggs, it just isn't going to make much difference outside of duels with classes that don't already have 6+ cc-based interrupts/min (sins get 8 not counting stealth, cc-break and maybe resilience).

[mrekxxx]

Vengeance is the easiest melee DPS for me to kite on my ranged characters. Stop being awful.

 

Your forum name is awfully ironic, as well. "Easy way".

 

this, nice said ...

[EzioMessi]

If sentinels get unremitting, then Guardians should get "guarded By the Force"...the trade off can go all night...

 

Go ahead. Take our GBTF. I'll gladly trade it for multiple 4-second stuns, and a DCD that "increases" your health as opposed to takes it away. That's a fair trade I suppose?

[Helig]

Go ahead. Take our GBTF. I'll gladly trade it for multiple 4-second stuns, and a DCD that "increases" your health as opposed to takes it away. That's a fair trade I suppose?

You'll have to give up an entire talent tree for "multiple 4-second stuns". Enure for Camo? Any day... Oh, wait, I'm a Carnage Marauder, as well. Screw you, guys, I'm going home.

 

How about you stop making bad melee DPS players an example of how good you yourself or your class may be. If you have to kite with a class that has channelled/casted abilities (like Commando), you are losing DPS. Losing DPS means you are not a very good DPS. You're better off playing a VG Tactics, kiting the Vengeance jugg, while maintaining 100% of your DPS.

A melee that's being kited, or peeled, does almost no damage, as well. I find myself doing enough damage on a Gunner 1v1, thanks to cannon slap root+KB, root+HTL, root+Electronet (although, in Arena, we use that as an offensive, not a defensive cooldown, for obvious reasons), 2x TOs.

 

And I'm not even talking about Pyro, because it does a considerable damage without having to stop to cast at all, but we don't use that, due to excessive utility of Gunnery and its enhanced survivability, as well as, obviously, better burst.

The more players there are against each other (4v4->8v8->16v16? and so on), the more effective range becomes.

 

Why?

 

Because ten ranged casters can all focus one target in 30m area, and swap to any target instantly without requiring movement inside that area.

 

Melee cannot. Melee can't focus another target after having used a gap closer.

 

So, ranged are better off in 8v8 than in 4v4, and since there's still 8v8 in the game, ranged will never have place in 4v4 arenas, because that would make them overpowered in 8v8.

 

Now, snipers are a slight exception to this rule, as they have cover. They have the best of both worlds. The range, and the ability to keep DPS in melee range as well. Not to mention the mobility due to the roll.

Valid concern, if a little isolated from certain factors. I believe that BW did think of this. There are LoS obstacles to impede ranged focus power, and there are environmental points in Arenas that are designed to keep Melee at a disadvantage. Catwalk on the space station Arena comes to mind.

 

In my Commando's team (my main tank Guardian's team is fairly conservative in matters of composition), we run DPS Shadow+Gunner. Suboptimal, but perfectly workable because of cross-peeling and coordinated damage spikes. We just blew up Operative healers in a couple of GCDs quite a few times.

[EzioMessi]

You'll have to give up an entire talent tree for "multiple 4-second stuns". Enure for Camo? Any day... Oh, wait, I'm a Carnage Marauder, as well. Screw you, guys, I'm going home.

 

 

Camo? No way, never giving that up.

 

And GBTF for guardians will be so OP, it completely justifies them trading off with multiple CCs.

 

Imagine this. 4-sec invulnerability > Lose health > Enure > Medpac

 

They will become a living Heal to Full meme.

[easeyway]

A melee that's being kited, or peeled, does almost no damage, as well. I find myself doing enough damage on a Gunner 1v1, thanks to cannon slap root+KB, root+HTL, root+Electronet (although, in Arena, we use that as an offensive, not a defensive cooldown, for obvious reasons), 2x TOs.

 

Yeah, except you cannot peel a good melee DPS with ranged. There are far more gap closers than there are gap makers. A marauder/sentinel has to only close the gap with stealth, after which you cannot use your pushback (because you would be giving him leap), and you could use your HO, but then he will CC you (either choke or mezz). You could use SS to root as Arsenal, but the melee will 50% slow you, which is enough to keep you from getting far enough to heal, and using HO/Hold the Line has the problem described previously. In short: melee has the advantage, by far.

 

And I'm not even talking about Pyro, because it does a considerable damage without having to stop to cast at all, but we don't use that, due to excessive utility of Gunnery and its enhanced survivability, as well as, obviously, better burst.

 

I don't find Pyro doing much more damage on the move. After the DoT nerf, the damage on the move was greatly reduced. While TD will hit a bit more, the DoT will be cleansed. Like everything else. You also have to stop to proc your Rail either with Unload (a little bit better as you don't have to finish the cast), or Power Shot. Also, compared to Arsenal, Pyro really doesn't come close (Arsenal root, better heat management, no dots = mezz, better HO, better shield, better burst, can absorb a big hitter, can cast 2 instants, the list goes on and on)

 

Valid concern, if a little isolated from certain factors. I believe that BW did think of this. There are LoS obstacles to impede ranged focus power, and there are environmental points in Arenas that are designed to keep Melee at a disadvantage. Catwalk on the space station Arena comes to mind.

 

In my Commando's team (my main tank Guardian's team is fairly conservative in matters of composition), we run DPS Shadow+Gunner. Suboptimal, but perfectly workable because of cross-peeling and coordinated damage spikes. We just blew up Operative healers in a couple of GCDs quite a few times.

 

That sounds plausible. Yet, it still requires much much more compared to running a melee comp.

Edited October 19, 2013 by easeyway

[Aelaias]

It will be fair when master strike becomes the main means for burst in the combat spec, among other things. This solution ignores the greatest issue with vig/veng -- ms/ravage is the most important damaging ability and 50% of its damage is at the end of a near 3 second channel falling outside the unremitting window. Edited October 19, 2013 by Aelaias

[Helig]

Yeah, except you cannot peel a good melee DPS with ranged. There are far more gap closers than there are gap makers. A marauder/sentinel has to only close the gap with stealth, after which you cannot use your pushback (because you would be giving him leap), and you could use your HO, but then he will CC you (either choke or mezz). You could use SS to root as Arsenal, but the melee will 50% slow you, which is enough to keep you from getting far enough to heal, and using HO/Hold the Line has the problem described previously. In short: melee has the advantage, by far.

 

That sounds plausible. Yet, it still requires much much more compared to running a melee comp.

Yeah, well, that's why you've got your homies, right? Besides, Commando is pretty tanky as Gunner. I tank them just enough to carry the fight to a position where we can execute an efficient peel combos (to the end result of tossing the f-ers off a ledge, while their jump has been burned, or making them chase, their healer often falling behind a bit, allowing opportunities for tactical switches, etc - options are pretty good).

 

You're right - FOTM compositions have to sweat a bit less for the same results, but I don't really mind playing "hard mode".

Edited October 19, 2013 by Helig

[JP_Legatus]

No, you can root with THREE different skills, if you get kited as carnage/combat then l2p

 

Fixed your post

[easeyway]

Yeah, well, that's why you've got your homies, right? Besides, Commando is pretty tanky as Gunner. I tank them just enough to carry the fight to a position where we can execute an efficient peel combos (to the end result of tossing the f-ers off a ledge, while their jump has been burned, or making them chase, their healer often falling behind a bit, allowing opportunities for tactical switches, etc - options are pretty good).

 

You're right - FOTM compositions have to sweat a bit less for the same results, but I don't really mind playing "hard mode".

 

Yeah, I do have my 1 homie (the DPS that is).

 

Except I get shut down pretty bad, and can't peel. So it becomes 2 DPS against 1 DPS very quickly (me being shut down and running for my life). And that is bad. It's also quite not as tanky atm because of the sick AoE damage going on (VG and Smash), which is easily landed too.

 

I haven't had a chance to run a lot of comps with my Commando. Maybe with a GS or another ranged it's better, but it certainly didn't work with a basic Sentinel/Guardian/Scoundrel combo. You just get shut down, and by kiting you quickly LoS your heals. You also just simply die too fast, and even if you do get to do your burst, it's simply too far apart (15 seconds) that people will use cooldowns and get the upper hand in that 15 second time window, since Unload is white damage and easily countered.

 

I mean, I like the fact that you could run different comps. Maybe they work. However, being an MMO, it's hard enough to find decent FOTM players (smashers/scoundrels) let alone really good and GEARED Commandos/Sages to try something different. I mean, how many really good Commandos/Mercenaries have you played with/against? I can't really count many...

 

People simply don't play/grind/gear classes that are good "maybe, perhaps, dunno".

 

And, my point about BW being biased towards making specs brainless still remain. All the changes; to melee getting special treatment via interrupt protection, smash landing instant, stuns stacking (two 4 sec stuns at the same time count nearly as 8 sec). These are all things that make countering and "skill" meaningless. If you can't counter something, there is no game. Then it just becomes a match where both teams use all their cooldowns, and the team with better setup/better gear wins.

 

Now, this root to vengeance changes nothing. It doesn't fix anything. It's not really a problem. It just shows bad judgement on BW part on NOT fixing things that NEED fixing. Ability pushback and interrupt rebalance for one. I mean, if getting interrupted/pushed on your precious Ravage is so terrible, has it ever occurred to you that perhaps the problem is not with Ravage but with interrupts in the game in general?

 

I mean I'm willing to accept that if I get pushed/pulled/or stunned, that my cast doesn't go through. But, why does casts get pushed back by damage? You don't get longer GDC when you take damage between instant casts. And, why do we have an interrupt ability in the game? Because, they really do nothing to classes like marauders/vgs that have all instant casts, and interrupt protection on their ONE and ONLY channeled ability.

 

This is the real problem. Because it simply CANNOT be balanced. If they balance casters based on people using interrupts, what happens in PvE environment where interrupts doesn't occur as much? Overpowered casters happen. And, if they balance the PvE environment where interrupts don't happen, how can they balance the fact that in PvP there are interrupts flying around left and right? They don't. They can't, without removing or totally changing the way interrupts work.

 

Or, they just add more content without balance, because people pay for content, not for balance.

 

That's why we got arenas - a whole different meta than 8v8 objective ranked warzones - with 0 game mechanics changes.

Edited October 20, 2013 by easeyway

[GregAlia]

I wanted it and it was suggested on the boards a few weeks ago. There have even been balance "experts" on vengeance claiming that vengeance always had it (who had to be corrected).

 

It's not a "bad idea" for juggs, it just isn't going to make much difference outside of duels with classes that don't already have 6+ cc-based interrupts/min (sins get 8 not counting stealth, cc-break and maybe resilience).

 

the main concern that I gathered from everyone posting in the Juggernaut forums was fixing vengeance for PvE. Very few people were asking for a root. This does nothing to help vengeance Juggernauts in PvE. the fact that they chose this over all other suggestions was pretty silly. There are a lot of things they can do to the Juggernaut tree to help beef up its burst without putting a route on ravage. They could have re worked pool hatred, increased our bleed amage, increased our bleed amage on target below 30 percent, and given our bleeds some type of cleansing immunity.

[af_raptura]

Jugs have lots of stuff marauders dont have, saber-reflech, push, reset on leap, intercede, aoe slow, fake health(13k wz medpack) ect. This should have nothing to do with them getting a marauder exclusive talent. I am glad classes are different, and this is a blatant theft of an ability (for lack of imagination to fix the actual issues), so you can start so see how stupid this is. See all the qq about a marauder getting unstoppable, that's the same way i feel about a jug getting overwhelm. They are already hard to fight on my sorc. Unstoppable is insanely good when in situations with stun heavy classes, it basically ruins a sorcs day right now. The only thing a dps sorc can do is barrier it or break the root, both of witch are on huge cooldowns. With overwhelm, they will pretty much be a super hard counter to sorcs, ops, and merc's without enet and they know it. I play many classes, and giving jugs this ability is too much for a class with unstoppable.

 

In summary, this is bs. Too bad it will take the cry of a million dead sorcs to get it noticed.

 

I have played a vengence jugg, a bit, but I know what you mean. I was kind of mad when I heard that hydraulic overrides would be given to all bounty hunters. I played AP when even when everyone was drooling over pyro. It just didn't feel right.

 

The feeling did pass, but I have to agree with you in that I would have rather that had another solution to making vengence stronger.

 

Also, I agree that this also makes dps sorcs' lives harder. I actually found that vengence juggs were the only warrior specs I could effectively kite, but that might change now. Especially because lightning will not see any changes in this patch.

[Skinnychalk]

Hahahahahaha and give Vengeance juggs Camo and undying thanx bro.

[Helig]

Yeah, I do have my 1 homie (the DPS that is).

 

Except I get shut down pretty bad, and can't peel. So it becomes 2 DPS against 1 DPS very quickly (me being shut down and running for my life). And that is bad. It's also quite not as tanky atm because of the sick AoE damage going on (VG and Smash), which is easily landed too.

 

I haven't had a chance to run a lot of comps with my Commando. Maybe with a GS or another ranged it's better, but it certainly didn't work with a basic Sentinel/Guardian/Scoundrel combo. You just get shut down, and by kiting you quickly LoS your heals. You also just simply die too fast, and even if you do get to do your burst, it's simply too far apart (15 seconds) that people will use cooldowns and get the upper hand in that 15 second time window, since Unload is white damage and easily countered.

I mean, I like the fact that you could run different comps. Maybe they work. However, being an MMO, it's hard enough to find decent FOTM players (smashers/scoundrels) let alone really good and GEARED Commandos/Sages to try something different. I mean, how many really good Commandos/Mercenaries have you played with/against? I can't really count many...

Tanks can peel, as well. Well, VGs peel a bit worse than Juggs and Shadows, but they do give breathing time.

 

To avoid separation from the healer, I usually announce the direction I'm going in and the cooldowns that I use for the healer to know when is their best chance to move. We also have pretty strict positioning, a least for the Commando and the healer.

 

As I said, yeah, we have to expend greater effort with a non-FOTM comp. But that doesn't mean it can't work, once we dog-trained ourselves for some things.

[easeyway]

As I said, yeah, we have to expend greater effort with a non-FOTM comp. But that doesn't mean it can't work, once we dog-trained ourselves for some things.

 

Well, then I have to envy you for the teammates that you have.

 

Mine weren't willing to go into a losing streak for trying to make Commando work, when we had 100% win ratio with my VG Tactics (DPS stance)...

[TonyDragonflame]

Hahahahahaha and give Vengeance juggs Camo and undying thanx bro.

 

Please, also give pacify, transcendence, inspiration, -30% passive dr from aoe, cautirize and clipping throw with 3 sec root thanx bro

[Helig]

Well, then I have to envy you for the teammates that you have.

 

Mine weren't willing to go into a losing streak for trying to make Commando work, when we had 100% win ratio with my VG Tactics (DPS stance)...

Well, it's mainly an alts group - and yeah, the guys are pretty mature. Just willing to chill and adjust at a comfortable pace, without chasing some instant e-peen gratification. Patience does pay off.

[Ugolino]

20 secs on that push you guys have... Use that ability and stop the last hit on MS. its all you need. Now shut up.

 

I'm sorry, but you're either an imbecile, very confused about the point I'm making, or both.

[Monterone]

Vengeance getting a root on ravage is a terrible idea anyway... be ready for months and months of complaints until BW realizes this. It should be one or the other, root or immunity.

 

Bah, it's pointless, I thought I couldn't lose any more hope for this game but somehow it keeps happening.