Jedi Guardian Changes - Game Update 2.5

[lordbadtamaru]

Once agan, I am restating the point.

 

PVPers want every spec to be burst. This is valid as burst is king in PVP.

 

In pve however, you need AT LEAST one sustained dps spec, and AT LEAST one Burst Spec, to allow for both situations. UNLIKE PVP, both BURST and SUSTAINED have a usage.

 

So all this make Vigilance like carnage, is moot, since we cannot be like Carnage, a burst tree, as a sustained tree, unless we did some significant castrating.

[SenatorPalpaTANG]

Haven't seen Anakin skywalker using riposte much. He's more about brutally battering away at his enemies and not giving them a chance to attack. My vigilance guardian......... well his animations and damage look Meh.....

 

Plasma Brand and Overhead Slash look awesome imo!

 

But yeah it seems like the easiest thing they could do if we're parsing low (IDK, I don't do pve) would be to boost our AWFUL DoT damage.

 

I always knew Burning Blade and Burning Purpose were pretty weak, but I didn't realise just how weak they really were until I leveled up my Operative healer. One tick of a double stacked Kolto Probe (~1.5k heal, non crit) is enough to almost completely negate the damage of both DoTs in their entirety. One tick!

 

Why even give us DoTs if they're that weak? They're really nothing more than trash debuffs atm, which will hopefully cover some other classes useful DoTs when they get dispelled.

 

It would be a very easy way to get the spec wherever the devs want it to be since there's a ton of wiggle room atm.

Edited December 18, 2013 by SenatorPalpaTANG

[olcraft]

Plasma Brand and Overhead Slash look awesome imo!

 

But yeah it seems like the easiest thing they could do if we're parsing low (IDK, I don't do pve) would be to boost our AWFUL DoT damage.

 

I always knew Burning Blade and Burning Purpose were pretty weak, but I didn't realise just how weak they really were until I leveled up my Operative healer. One tick of a double stacked Kolto Probe (~1.5k heal, non crit) is enough to almost completely negate the damage of both DoTs in their entirety. One tick!

 

Why even give us DoTs if they're that weak? They're really nothing more than trash debuffs atm, which will hopefully cover some other classes useful DoTs when they get dispelled.

 

It would be a very easy way to get the spec wherever the devs want it to be since there's a ton of wiggle room atm.

 

dots are mainly for proccing keening. My parse indicates that it is about 25% of our total dps. I don't want this spec to be dots heavy without dot protection however. Dot reliant specs suffer heavily from cleanses .

Edited December 18, 2013 by olcraft

[olcraft]

Once agan, I am restating the point.

 

PVPers want every spec to be burst. This is valid as burst is king in PVP.

 

In pve however, you need AT LEAST one sustained dps spec, and AT LEAST one Burst Spec, to allow for both situations. UNLIKE PVP, both BURST and SUSTAINED have a usage.

 

So all this make Vigilance like carnage, is moot, since we cannot be like Carnage, a burst tree, as a sustained tree, unless we did some significant castrating.

 

I am not saying we should be as bursty as carnage. But it would be nice if they seperate bursty attacks(Overhead slash and Blade Storm) from dots.

 

Sometimes you need more burst( effective against healers or preventing enemies from recovering to full health). Sometimes you need dots(less vulnerable to stuns, ccs and armor rating). But our bursty attacks are not bursty enough to quickly finish off almost dead enemies.

 

Instead of giving us useless dots that inflict less than 1000 damage, why not just straight up buff the direct damage? We already have the plasma brand. Why do we really need such weak useless dots that are only good for proccing keening? If you really need more dots then keep the Blade Storm dots but I really think OH slash need to be free of dots like Merciless Slash. We really need more control over when we'd like to apply dots and when we don't.

[NuRhoPhi]

Once agan, I am restating the point.

 

PVPers want every spec to be burst. This is valid as burst is king in PVP.

 

In pve however, you need AT LEAST one sustained dps spec, and AT LEAST one Burst Spec, to allow for both situations. UNLIKE PVP, both BURST and SUSTAINED have a usage.

 

So all this make Vigilance like carnage, is moot, since we cannot be like Carnage, a burst tree, as a sustained tree, unless we did some significant castrating.

 

...

Except carnage actually does quite nice sustained dps.

How would you view 'wallbang': engineer/saboteur specced sniper/gunslinger? Throw a droid, start the channel, watch parts fly, bonus round: double wallbang.

Guess what does a seriously high sustained parse? Yep, aforementioned.

Beyond that, you have hybrid spec (center and right tree). Comes with a setup, but the quad damage charge actually still deals nice burst.

Marksman/sharpshooter also aint exactly too shabby in the sustained dmg race.

Would you say marksman/sharpshooter is less bursty than vigilance?

 

What exactly is 'burst spec'?

What timeframe is the burst?

Carnage CAN do massive dmg in 4.5s with a sped up ravage+ autocrit force scream. This requires a proc however.

Smash delivers an AoE burst.. every 10s, pretty much guaranteed.

 

In terms of pvp validity:

-how much setup does the burst requires (see: gunslinger dots and sabotage charge,..)

-how repeatable is the burst? (tactics vanguard can pop the +25%crit and fire 7 missiles (which benefit from +25%crit) . Buut, after that, both the +25%crit and the 7 missiles have a loong cooldown)

-how reliable is the burst? 'aimed shot' can crit pretty high. and only has 15s cd. But, it is not an autocrit.

-how much damage does the burst do, in how much time.

 

Vigilance wise:

I proposed to change force rush so that it would give +15-30% crit, instead of +25-50, but stacks could be consumed by dispatch AND bladestorm. This would mean no more autocrit, but regular critting in the rotation.

I also think the 'accuracy' talent should give +1-3% melee crit chance.

Then, lengthen DoT durations to match cooldowns (+50% dmg to burning blade and overhead slash DoT)

Make OS and Plasma brand reduce the cooldown of Master strike. Actually, due to 9s-12s cd system. Maybe make it overhead slash and blade storm, reduce the cd of masterstrike by 4.5s. This makes it fully useable while leveling too.

'preparation' removed: 0/2 talent: no respite: +50% crit damage to plasma brand direct damage and all focus builders.

If I count correctly, +50% crit plasma brand would crit approx as high as OS. (does depend on armor vs elemental resistance of target), but still below dispatch or last tick of masterstrike critting.

 

IS this now a burst spec? Well, I'd argue it would be burstier than now yes.

But: focus still has that pesky autocrit smash.

 

And: presume target has 20% armor. Focus and vigilance hit the target with a crit from dispatch and masterstrike. Presume 70% surge. Since focus has +9% damage after smash, both have +12% damage.

Damage comparison:

Focus deals (1+0.85 (crit: 70%surge +15%talented) )* (0.8 (20% armor) +(0.2*0.3) (30% armor pierce))=1.591

Vigilance: ((1+0.7)*(0.8))=1.36

Or, focus hits 17% harder on a crit. (admittedly, vigilance would have dots running during that attack.. oh well)

Focus critting on bladestorm also hits harder, for same reason, and +3% damage from the stance.

 

To be honest: pvp-wise, vigilance IMO could use both increase to sustained dmg and burst, and to 'control' (kite-ableness), and to survivability.

But: start by buffing damage, and see what comes out. (buffing everything at once is a train ticket to overpowerdness, which inevitably leads to the highway to nerf-hell)

[Manweth]

Or as someone so eloquently put in before in Guardian forums, they can remove every AC besides operative, assassin and vanguard from PvP. Dont let them do pvp at all.

 

 

Coz really, asking pvp buff for vigilance is simply impossible at this point, with how the game is nowadays. It's faceroll operative / assassin matches all day long. Sages and sorcs gave up a long time ago, and all focus players went to sentinels ( and even now theyare getting curbstomped by shadows.)

 

Beofre asking for pvp buff for vigilance, ask for an all around pvp fix. As of today, it's horrifying.

 

If anything, ask for a direct damage increase for PvE. PvP side of things are dead now.

Edited December 18, 2013 by Manweth

[SenatorPalpaTANG]

dots are mainly for proccing keening. My parse indicates that it is about 25% of our total dps. I don't want this spec to be dots heavy without dot protection however. Dot reliant specs suffer heavily from cleanses .

Meh it wouldn't really be any different than it is now. People already dispell our DoTs out of habit, even though Plasma Brand is the only one worth a healer wasting a GCD on.

 

At least with stronger DoTs there would be a penalty for not dispelling them, besides the extra dispatch proc once every 20s. They could increase the damage of Burning Blade and Burning Purpose by 100% (literally) and they'd still be pretty weak in the grand scheme of things.

 

If they're not going to get rid of our DoTs altogether, I'd like to see them take some cues from the PT Pyro tree (supplemental DoTs and massive burst damage rolled into one). This vid was posted in the pvp section a few weeks back and honestly the raw burst of that spec is pretty awe inspiring:

[NuRhoPhi]

Meh it wouldn't really be any different than it is now. People already dispell our DoTs out of habit, even though Plasma Brand is the only one worth a healer wasting a GCD on.

 

At least with stronger DoTs there would be a penalty for not dispelling them, besides the extra dispatch proc once every 20s. They could increase the damage of Burning Blade and Burning Purpose by 100% (literally) and they'd still be pretty weak in the grand scheme of things.

 

If they're not going to get rid of our DoTs altogether, I'd like to see them take some cues from the PT Pyro tree (supplemental DoTs and massive burst damage rolled into one). This vid was posted in the pvp section a few weeks back and honestly the raw burst of that spec is pretty awe inspiring:

 

Warning: pyro does NOT have an autocrit, at all. So, burst is rather random: do my heavy attacks crit or.. not.

Pyrotech does have a +25% crit for 12s, but long cooldown (2min I thought).

Obviously, popping missiles, +25%crit is gonna do burst, but only once every two mins.

Wanna burst?

Hit 'sticky grenade', assault plastique, incendiary round, +25%crit.

Both sticky grenade and assault plastique went of under the +25%crit.

Now, High impact bolt + missile;

Stockstrike+missile

High impact bolt -again- +missile.

Other abilities.

But again: you can only do that every two minutes, and even with +25%crit chance it could fail utterly. Also: a guardian activating saber reflect as you pop the +25%crit would be hilarious.

 

In terms of dispelling dots: I think part of the issue is that the dots are 'physical'.

Make all vigilance DoT's 'force' and only sage (/sorc) can dispell them I think.

An issue that remains however is in pvp the relatively low cooldown of 'cleanse everything' abilities, notably 'dodge' for the smuggler/agent classes and force shroud for shadow/assassin.

I'd much rather give the DoT's 'force' type, than giving every DoT in the game cleanse protection.

IMO giving the cleanse protection to balance/madness was a retarded decision to start with.

[lordbadtamaru]

Dots need to be force. That is a flat dps upgrade, because focus gives us FORCE CRIT TALENTS!

 

WE NEED THOSE FREAKING THINGS TO BE FORCE DAMAGE.

 

In pvp we just need some form of 1v1 viability, maybe the ability to effectively annoy the hell out of tanks with a steady stream of internal damage with enough survivability to piss off the bursty dps.

 

Imho if our dots crit more we would have a lot of things going for us as far as pure damage goes.

[NuRhoPhi]

It actually also makes some sense for the DoT's to be force:

Bladestorm is a 'force' ability,

Plama brand too;

that leaves overhead slash as a physical ability. (melee)

[SenatorPalpaTANG]

Dots need to be force. That is a flat dps upgrade, because focus gives us FORCE CRIT TALENTS!

 

WE NEED THOSE FREAKING THINGS TO BE FORCE DAMAGE.

I think you're confusing terminology here.

 

All attacks in this game are either tech, force, ranged weapon or melee weapon. All debuffs are classified as either physical, mental or force, and the damage types are kinetic/energy and internal/elemental.

 

Our DoTs are considered "physical effects" that deal elemental damage as force attacks. You can verify that by using Overhead Slash on a Sin/Shadow with Force Shroud up. The DoT will apply when the attack lands (physical effect), but all the ticks will be resisted (force damage).

 

In pvp we just need some form of 1v1 viability, maybe the ability to effectively annoy the hell out of tanks with a steady stream of internal damage with enough survivability to piss off the bursty dps.

Not sure what you mean here. Vigilance has always been a solid dueling spec.

 

And imo with the added MS root we're actually in a pretty good place for WZ play too. The spec was already great for Huttball but the MS root just makes us total MVPs now

 

The spec is lacking in arenas though which are all about controllable burst, not Vigi's strong suit, and apparently PvE DPS.

 

The PvE side of things should be easy enough to fix with a little tweaking but the arena weakness is more complicated. Ultimately we'll always be competing with sents/maras for melee dps spots, and we just have nothing that can make up for all the utility, burst and def CDs Combat/Carnage has to offer. With the current climate, it's hard to imagine a comp that would benefit more from having a Vigi Guardian than a Combat Sent.

[NuRhoPhi]

I think you're confusing terminology here.

 

All attacks in this game are either tech, force, ranged weapon or melee weapon. All debuffs are classified as either physical, mental or force, and the damage types are kinetic/energy and internal/elemental.

 

Our DoTs are considered "physical effects" that deal elemental damage as force attacks. You can verify that by using Overhead Slash on a Sin/Shadow with Force Shroud up. The DoT will apply when the attack lands (physical effect), but all the ticks will be resisted (force damage).

 

Not sure what you mean here. Vigilance has always been a solid dueling spec.

 

And imo with the added MS root we're actually in a pretty good place for WZ play too. The spec was already great for Huttball but the MS root just makes us total MVPs now

 

The spec is lacking in arenas though which are all about controllable burst, not Vigi's strong suit, and apparently PvE DPS.

 

The PvE side of things should be easy enough to fix with a little tweaking but the arena weakness is more complicated. Ultimately we'll always be competing with sents/maras for melee dps spots, and we just have nothing that can make up for all the utility, burst and def CDs Combat/Carnage has to offer. With the current climate, it's hard to imagine a comp that would benefit more from having a Vigi Guardian than a Combat Sent.

 

Regarding arena's: one obvious advantage the vigi guardian brings is taunts; (attacking someones besides the healer that isn't targetting you? TAUNT dammit)

Secondary benefit is a knockback; on the Makeb arena, knocking someone off the bridge can setup a temporary 3vs4. Knocking of the enemy tank means no guarding range etc.

 

Duelling wise: not so sure. Vigilance is dead going against watchman IMO (I have a 55 marauder, in Juyo I consider guardians crunchy snacks. Sorry)

Vigilance goes vs combat sent, starts a masterstrike. As marauder I can: obfuscate (90% acc debuff), force choke if outside of unremitting, AoE mezz to interrupt, and stealth. That is assuming I dont 'eat' the masterstrike with a saberward, rebuke, or undying rage. Total sum: you should not be landing a single masterstrike fully.

Vigilance goes against commando: Electronet (with hydraulic override if necessary) to distance, dps. If guardian breaks the electronet cc, great. Once health starts getting low, insta-cast the 8s cc, and heal to full.

Vigilance CAN win, sure. But needs either better gear, or better play IMO.

 

Vigilance goes against vanguard: well, better time that saber reflect to perfection. In a duel, I'd put my money on vanguard, regardless of spec. So much elemental dmg, heavy armor lolwut?. Vigilance has difficulty using it's AoE mezz due to the bleeds. Once force push and choke are used, vigilance is kiteable in 4-10m.

 

So, uh. Vigilance can pummel telekinetics sage into the ground probably.

[lordbadtamaru]

Thats what I thought, I believed it WAS force damage but someone said it wasn't.

 

Hard to know for sure but I'll check combat logs. I feel they crit too often to be non force damage.

 

The main PVE problems we are having right now are that:

 

Master Strike and the reset proc is EXTREMELY inconsistent.

 

We have a terrible execute (sub 30 percent phase) in PVE.

 

Somewhat range constricted (Some feel it more than most, I just want our leap to not be 10 meters, the situations where you are 9 meters from the boss are annoying as you have to split second decide whether to walk back and leap and risk the boss leaping even farther or just charge normally. 0 or even 5 meter leap would be amazing.

Edited December 19, 2013 by lordbadtamaru

[NuRhoPhi]

Thats what I thought, I believed it WAS force damage but someone said it wasn't.

 

Hard to know for sure but I'll check combat logs. I feel they crit too often to be non force damage.

 

The main PVE problems we are having right now are that:

 

Master Strike and the reset proc is EXTREMELY inconsistent.

 

We have a terrible execute (sub 30 percent phase) in PVE.

 

Somewhat range constricted (Some feel it more than most, I just want our leap to not be 10 meters, the situations where you are 9 meters from the boss are annoying as you have to split second decide whether to walk back and leap and risk the boss leaping even farther or just charge normally. 0 or even 5 meter leap would be amazing.

 

I do think the damage is force, I think all elemental attacks are force; though force attacks can be vs armor or vs internal.

But: the DoT 'debuff' is physical. This means all healers can cleanse it.

 

EDIT: on torhead; plasma brand 'spellDamage' DoT is listed as force.

The 'buff 'is listed as negative. (debuff).

But, on 'torparse' parses for example, you'll see (physical) next to the DoT's.

Whereas the DoT's from sage have 'force' listed, and those from gunslinger and commando 'tech'.

Leaving Juyo and Shien with 'physical' DoT's.

Considering there are three healer types in game, instead of DoT protections, it might be an option to make each type only cleansable by one healer, or make each healer able to cleanse two out of three. In PVP that is, as in operations it wouldn't be very funny to find out 'woops, we went double sage healers, no cleansing these dots

 

Another option: make the DoT's 'force', and make commando the only healer able to cleanse both tech and force.

Huzzah, a buff to commando healer, a buff to vigilance and watchman.

Edited December 19, 2013 by NuRhoPhi

[SenatorPalpaTANG]

Regarding arena's: one obvious advantage the vigi guardian brings is taunts; (attacking someones besides the healer that isn't targetting you? TAUNT dammit)

Secondary benefit is a knockback; on the Makeb arena, knocking someone off the bridge can setup a temporary 3vs4. Knocking of the enemy tank means no guarding range etc.

It's not that guardians have no advantages, it's that they don't come close to matching those of a combat sent atm.

 

Extra taunts and Force Push aren't unique to Vigi and really aren't a great trade off for Inspiration, Transcendence (which can now be maintained indefinitely), a heal debuff (that can also be maintained indefinitely), superior burst damage (that is controllable for target swapping), Pacify and defensive CDs good enough to void them as a starting target.

 

I'm not sure what buffs the devs could realistically give Vigi to close that gap. Maybe if the metagame shifted towards outlast comps instead of burst, pressure specs like Vigi/Watchman etc would be more appealing.

[NuRhoPhi]

It's not that guardians have no advantages, it's that they don't come close to matching those of a combat sent atm.

 

Extra taunts and Force Push aren't unique to Vigi and really aren't a great trade off for Inspiration, Transcendence (which can now be maintained indefinitely), a heal debuff (that can also be maintained indefinitely), superior burst damage (that is controllable for target swapping), Pacify and defensive CDs good enough to void them as a starting target.

 

I'm not sure what buffs the devs could realistically give Vigi to close that gap. Maybe if the metagame shifted towards outlast comps instead of burst, pressure specs like Vigi/Watchman etc would be more appealing.

 

My honest opinion?

Pre-2.0 I played carnage marauder.

Post 2.0 I switched to Juyo (hate the random proc chances, and I normally play regs anyway, playing 'underdog' is fun )

Post 2.0, Carnage can keep up +6% def and +6% dmg reduction.

Smash gets +7% dmg reduction.

This is IMO the flaw: the burst spec, gets the most passive damage reductions.

The 'pressure' spec (watchman) gets self-heals, which are most effective when 1vs1 ing, but become negligible when focused. Moreover, if prevented from applying dots/or dots cleansed, self healing (mitigation) is denied.

Whereas with DR, the more dmg you are taking, the more damage you prevent with DR.

 

Suppose vigilance fights combat; combat uses the top ability a few times-> +6%def, +6% dr. Presume combat sat at 25% armor. Vigilance does armor reduction-> down to 20%; becomes 26% from combat buffs.

Vigilance has optimised pvp gear, for +5% accuracy. Due to the +6% def and +6% dr, a masterstrike would hit on average for:

 

1- ((1-0.06)*(1*0.74)/ ( 1*0.8))= 13.05% less.

Add rebuke/cloak of pain, and.. yeah.

So, instead of 'take away the active cooldowns': take away passives that grant 7% damage reduction vs everything.

 

 

Edit:

Smash spec sentinel comes with more mitigation than a dps assault vanguard, vs both 'energy' and internal/elemental dmg. Compare the defensive cooldown suite; gg.

Even the defensive cooldowns:

-enure,

focuse defense (without vigilance's +15% dmg reduction)

kolto overload/adrenaline rush:

those are at their most effective keeping you alive when attacked by a single enemy only.

Focus fire will burst through those.

Where-as cloak of pain works 20%, of all damage. Stealthing inside the zerg is also effective. Guarded by the force: yes, please focus fire meee.

So the answer should be that the burst specs are survivable only when using cooldowns.

Other defensive cooldowns, like enure, focused defense, kolto overload were not well thought-through in terms of 'group' pvp play for dps players.

Edited December 20, 2013 by NuRhoPhi

[vantgarde]

Hi fellow Guardians!

 

I admit I didn't read it all but I've seen some great ideas.

 

First of all I would definitly go for the DPS guard (Battle Meditation thing). I just love this idea!

 

But you all talk about DPS, and it's true our DPS is crappy but what about our survivability? I meam, we are the second target right behind the Sage (PVP perspective). It was not meant to be this way, we should be the last standing man apart from the Tank of course. And I'm quite OK whith Sentinel doing more DPS than us, but they should not out-survyving us. So here is what I would do, as a dev:

 

I would redesign the "Gather strength" talent and tight it to the actual Heath of the Guardian, so that it grants 2% damage Reduction and 2% more damage each time the Guardian gets below a given amount a pourcentage Health.

Something like The Guardian gets:

below 80% health then +2%DR and +2%Damage,

below 60% health then +4%DR and +4%Damage, (already stack)

below 40% health then +6%DR and +6%Damage, (already stack)

below 20% health then +8%DR and +8%Damage. (already stack)

 

So we can finally say to all those sins and sent "I may go down but you are *********** coming with me!!"

[olcraft]

Our survivability is not particularly bad. However our survivability against AOE specs such as smash monkeys or engineering snipers is absolutely horrible.

 

If you are a ranged attacker you can kite, LOS or whatever to stay outta their fu*k you puddles. As a melee attacker we have only two options; fu*k off and engage other targets(and pray that your enemies are not full of smashtards) or pop all your defensive CDs to eat the AOE damage and continue fighting those bitc*es. The latter option is almost a suicide and will force your healer and tank to babysit you, making your healer vulnerable. This is why I emphasized that "Buffing phase is far from over!". Our dps is mediocre at best for all the work we have to put into to be considered respectable. Our survivability is worse than a smash monkey marauder wearing a set of medium armor and their stupidly easy dps rotation. I can't even go on.

 

Based on Bioware's track records, they heavily favor specs that are meant to be popular among brain-dead noobs. Pyro powertechs, now smash monkeys......... Their rotation is a joke and they don't need to watch out for cooldowns as much as we do. Seriously when i used to play these specs, both my dps and protection scores were higher. Why? Because i don't need to glance at my quickbars as much to keep my dps up. Their bursts are insane while their skill cap is nearly zero. No wonder they've been the longest running FOTMs.

 

The thing is, Bioware must figure out a way to buff our spec without making us OP (hahaha if that is even remotely possible). But adding new talents to give us barely noticeable buffs will only make us more angry and critical toward Bioware.

Edited December 27, 2013 by olcraft

[NuRhoPhi]

Our survivability is not particularly bad. However our survivability against AOE specs such as smash monkeys or engineering snipers is absolutely horrible.

 

If you are a ranged attacker you can kite, LOS or whatever to stay outta their fu*k you puddles. As a melee attacker we have only two options; fu*k off and engage other targets(and pray that your enemies are not full of smashtards) or pop all your defensive CDs to eat the AOE damage and continue fighting those bitc*es. The latter option is almost a suicide and will force your healer and tank to babysit you, making your healer vulnerable. This is why I emphasized that "Buffing phase is far from over!". Our dps is mediocre at best for all the work we have to put into to be considered respectable. Our survivability is worse than a smash monkey marauder wearing a set of medium armor and their stupidly easy dps rotation. I can't even go on.

 

Based on Bioware's track records, they heavily favor specs that are meant to be popular among brain-dead noobs. Pyro powertechs, now smash monkeys......... Their rotation is a joke and they don't need to watch out for cooldowns as much as we do. Seriously when i used to play these specs, both my dps and protection scores were higher. Why? Because i don't need to glance at my quickbars as much to keep my dps up. Their bursts are insane while their skill cap is nearly zero. No wonder they've been the longest running FOTMs.

 

The thing is, Bioware must figure out a way to buff our spec without making us OP (hahaha if that is even remotely possible). But adding new talents to give us barely noticeable buffs will only make us more angry and critical toward Bioware.

 

Regarding AoE:

AoE dmg is too high, in general.

Flyby is fine-ish, due to cooldown, and cast-time with warning

But, sage telekinetics 'telekinetic wave', balance 'force in balance', Smash,

Pulse cannon, ..

By spec become very strong AoE abilities, that ARE USED FOR SINGLE TARGET.

That they deliver 100% AoE dmg is just a bonus.

This makes them especially valuable for breaking a guarded healer: tank will take dmg normally, and again some more through guard. No single target spec does double the dmg of such AoE abilities.

 

Here is a balanced AoE ability, for an AoE vanguard spec: Ionic discharge 0/2. Your ion pulse hits up to 1/2 targets within 4m for 33-66% of dmg. AoE dmg that is not bursty, still ability used in single target rotation, oh well. Sticky grenade deals an additional X damage over 6s to all targets.

For 'smash', make force scream/blade storm an AoE, dealing 33-66% of dmg as AoE damage.

 

 

It is not a coincidence that the considered as powerfull melee specs ALL have -30% AoE dmg reduction.

(sentinel has it, tactics vanguard has it, infiltration shadow has it)

30% reduction is stupidly high for dps anyway. It should be 7.5-15%, like the DoT dmg reduction.

But, AoE dmg , specially 'burst' or the 'AoE ability that does dmg like a single target ability' s should be scaled down.

 

 

The most powerfull healer? Operative. This healer auto-counters a lot of AoE 'fluff' dmg by keeping up HoT's. Even for this 'fluff' dmg, other healers would have to hard cast in pvp situations (mobile, so healing puddle less usefull. Kolto bomb is valid, but you might not get everyone in it).

[olcraft]

Regarding AoE:

AoE dmg is too high, in general.

Flyby is fine-ish, due to cooldown, and cast-time with warning

But, sage telekinetics 'telekinetic wave', balance 'force in balance', Smash,

Pulse cannon, ..

By spec become very strong AoE abilities, that ARE USED FOR SINGLE TARGET.

That they deliver 100% AoE dmg is just a bonus.

This makes them especially valuable for breaking a guarded healer: tank will take dmg normally, and again some more through guard. No single target spec does double the dmg of such AoE abilities.

 

Here is a balanced AoE ability, for an AoE vanguard spec: Ionic discharge 0/2. Your ion pulse hits up to 1/2 targets within 4m for 33-66% of dmg. AoE dmg that is not bursty, still ability used in single target rotation, oh well. Sticky grenade deals an additional X damage over 6s to all targets.

For 'smash', make force scream/blade storm an AoE, dealing 33-66% of dmg as AoE damage.

 

 

It is not a coincidence that the considered as powerfull melee specs ALL have -30% AoE dmg reduction.

(sentinel has it, tactics vanguard has it, infiltration shadow has it)

30% reduction is stupidly high for dps anyway. It should be 7.5-15%, like the DoT dmg reduction.

But, AoE dmg , specially 'burst' or the 'AoE ability that does dmg like a single target ability' s should be scaled down.

 

 

The most powerfull healer? Operative. This healer auto-counters a lot of AoE 'fluff' dmg by keeping up HoT's. Even for this 'fluff' dmg, other healers would have to hard cast in pvp situations (mobile, so healing puddle less usefull. Kolto bomb is valid, but you might not get everyone in it).

 

30% is NOT HIGH AT ALL. You have to remember that melee classes are the most vulnerable classes to AOE heavy specs. We are forced to eat their "Fu*k You" puddles to inflict damage on them. And by fu*king design, smash monkeys are extremely popular. If there are many of them, avoiding their smashes is impossible.

 

ok so we can't focus fire anything, we can't attack AOE specs directly, what the fu*k can we do then?

cheerleading for you? massage your tired fingers? go somewhere and wait our a**es out until the match is over? There is literally not a fu*king thing you can do. That's why most melee classes have 30% AOE damage reduction. Hell even with 30% DR, you have to avoid them unless it's absolutely necesary to fight them.

 

Now for us and scrappers, we don't even have such protection. So we are forced to eat up most of their smashes when we have no choice. If you don't have a tank or a healer to support you in an arena match, don't queue until you can find a competent healer and a tank to babysit you. Even then, you are a liability to them.

[NuRhoPhi]

30% is NOT HIGH AT ALL. You have to remember that melee classes are the most vulnerable classes to AOE heavy specs. We are forced to eat their "Fu*k You" puddles to inflict damage on them. And by fu*king design, smash monkeys are extremely popular. If there are many of them, avoiding their smashes is impossible.

 

ok so we can't focus fire anything, we can't attack AOE specs directly, what the fu*k can we do then?

cheerleading for you? massage your tired fingers? go somewhere and wait our a**es out until the match is over? There is literally not a fu*king thing you can do. That's why most melee classes have 30% AOE damage reduction. Hell even with 30% DR, you have to avoid them unless it's absolutely necesary to fight them.

 

Now for us and scrappers, we don't even have such protection. So we are forced to eat up most of their smashes when we have no choice. If you don't have a tank or a healer to support you in an arena match, don't queue until you can find a competent healer and a tank to babysit you. Even then, you are a liability to them.

 

Then you end up with 30% AoE protection for all melee.

Suppose it is placed high in the vigilance tree, then focus guardian is still screwed. (Focus sentinel can take it easily). Suppose it is placed low in tree. Massive advantage to guardian tank, compared to other tanks.

30% AoE protection is stupidly high.

Smash is an Autocrit, with 30% armor pen, and a force ability.

This means, against a tank, it cannot be defended, cannot be shielded, and ignores a chunk of armor.

I'm not going to calculate it here, but armor+ passive DR+ 30%AoE puts focus sentinel at similar damage reduction as tanks.

Focus sentinel takes less damage from 'force in balance' than tanks.

It gets even better with 'cloak of pain' or rebuke.

The 30% AoE dmg reduction and 30% dmg reduction while stunned also make tactics-in-ion-cell vanguard valid.

 

The problem in the game is that several AoE abilities deal damage normally reserved for single target attacks. Extreme examples are smash and tri-stack flamethrower.

These abilites need adjustement, otherwise everyone needs AoE dmg reduction (=retarded, bland, and would actually be the hardest possible nerf for AoE dmg: 30% dmg reduction for all)

Due to the level of AoE, 30% dmg reduction is worth too much, it is an ability you would always pick, as dps. But dps should be trying to select dmg-dealing skill points. Hence, balance AoE dmg, and lower AoE dmg reductions to 15%. Suggestion: specs that now have 30% AoE dmg reduction, should be hit as hard with AoE dmg with 15% AoE dmg reduction, for starters. In effect, this lowers the difference between the have-AoE-reduction and the have-nots.

 

(I keep editing.. sensitive topic to me I guess)

We are talking about how high AoE dmg is.

Yet several AoE abilities go largely unused. In which spec would you recommend commando to use 'Hail of Bolts'? What about explosive round? I only use that to interrupt caps..which don't take place in arena's anyway.

Hail of bolts: It could be an inconic ability, yet it is hardly buffed by any skill tree.

Likewise, no skill tree buffs 'earthquake'? or lightning storm for sage/sorcerer.

It can be argued such 'true' AoE abilities are in fact underpowered, either as damage, or in terms of damage vs cost.

Do you need 30% dmg reduction from those? No, of course not.

So the issue really is an unfortunately numerous list of abilities that deal single-target level burst damage as AoE, at low cost.

Edited December 29, 2013 by NuRhoPhi

[Creslan]

stance lock it to shien/shii-cho, keep it low in the tree, problem solved.

 

 

also, this not only a "PVP" issue, this would help guardians in a PVE setting where pulsing aoe damage and aoe damage in general is common, and remeber, heavy armor is only 5% more mit vrs medium, so the "you have heavy armor" argument doesn't work in that instance,(if the aoe is Internal/elemental, they take 30% less damage) why should the medium armor guy take 25% less damage than the heavy armor guy? It's not "he's dps", in all fairness if you spec vigilance/focus you are dps as well, being a pure class dps shouldn't reward you with the best damage and best defense, they should actually take MORE damage not less, to be fair and balanced.

Edited December 30, 2013 by Creslan

[NuRhoPhi]

stance lock it to shien/shii-cho, keep it low in the tree, problem solved.

 

 

also, this not only a "PVP" issue, this would help guardians in a PVE setting where pulsing aoe damage and aoe damage in general is common, and remeber, heavy armor is only 5% more mit vrs medium, so the "you have heavy armor" argument doesn't work in that instance,(if the aoe is Internal/elemental, they take 30% less damage) why should the medium armor guy take 25% less damage than the heavy armor guy? It's not "he's dps", in all fairness if you spec vigilance/focus you are dps as well, being a pure class dps shouldn't reward you with the best damage and best defense, they should actually take MORE damage not less, to be fair and balanced.

 

in pvp, the AoE abilities are bursty. Smash, tri-stack flamethrower etc.

If balance requires everyone vulnerable to those abilities (let 's say melee dps) to require 30% AoE dmg reduction,

that punishes abilities like 'Hail of Bolts' etc to even greater levels.

It is the spec that should determine how much damage you take. For example, I consider focus guardian to be far more balanced than focus sentinel. Yes, it is a glass cannon. But one with taunts, a knockback etc.

The sustained/ non-bursty specs should be the ones with best survivability. BW kicked the ball wrong. (they even comment hutts have no feet!)

Give everyone 30% AoE dmg reduction is also 'bland' IMO.

But, I've given my view for a possible 'road forward' for vigilance in my 'developer for a day' thread.

 

Also: stance locking is in a sense a nerf. In huttball, or when nodeguarding (yes, people still do unranked warzones occasionally. The horror), in certain situations switching to Soresu makes sense: stay alive to maintain the node, guard a ball carrier, try to walk the last few steps etc. Suddenly not a valid option, or one that suddenly takes MORE damage from pulse generator. This is the madness: the 30% AoE reduction would mean melee dps take less dmg from flamethrower than the tanks...(it already does mean this, I know..)

On the other hand, a situation like ion-cell-tactics vanguard must be avoided too. It is also THE tool to destroy tanks: hit healer and tank, tank takes unmitigateable dmg, and another 50% through guard.

 

Overall, AoE dmg requires attention. But either ALL tanks get some AoE dmg reduction, or NONE, in the current state of the game.

Since operations are balanced with some AoE cleaves etc, looking at bursty AoE abilities may be easier, and should be done.

[olcraft]

Then you end up with 30% AoE protection for all melee.

Suppose it is placed high in the vigilance tree, then focus guardian is still screwed. (Focus sentinel can take it easily). Suppose it is placed low in tree. Massive advantage to guardian tank, compared to other tanks.

30% AoE protection is stupidly high.

Smash is an Autocrit, with 30% armor pen, and a force ability.

This means, against a tank, it cannot be defended, cannot be shielded, and ignores a chunk of armor.

I'm not going to calculate it here, but armor+ passive DR+ 30%AoE puts focus sentinel at similar damage reduction as tanks.

Focus sentinel takes less damage from 'force in balance' than tanks.

It gets even better with 'cloak of pain' or rebuke.

The 30% AoE dmg reduction and 30% dmg reduction while stunned also make tactics-in-ion-cell vanguard valid.

 

The problem in the game is that several AoE abilities deal damage normally reserved for single target attacks. Extreme examples are smash and tri-stack flamethrower.

These abilites need adjustement, otherwise everyone needs AoE dmg reduction (=retarded, bland, and would actually be the hardest possible nerf for AoE dmg: 30% dmg reduction for all)

Due to the level of AoE, 30% dmg reduction is worth too much, it is an ability you would always pick, as dps. But dps should be trying to select dmg-dealing skill points. Hence, balance AoE dmg, and lower AoE dmg reductions to 15%. Suggestion: specs that now have 30% AoE dmg reduction, should be hit as hard with AoE dmg with 15% AoE dmg reduction, for starters. In effect, this lowers the difference between the have-AoE-reduction and the have-nots.

 

(I keep editing.. sensitive topic to me I guess)

We are talking about how high AoE dmg is.

Yet several AoE abilities go largely unused. In which spec would you recommend commando to use 'Hail of Bolts'? What about explosive round? I only use that to interrupt caps..which don't take place in arena's anyway.

Hail of bolts: It could be an inconic ability, yet it is hardly buffed by any skill tree.

Likewise, no skill tree buffs 'earthquake'? or lightning storm for sage/sorcerer.

It can be argued such 'true' AoE abilities are in fact underpowered, either as damage, or in terms of damage vs cost.

Do you need 30% dmg reduction from those? No, of course not.

So the issue really is an unfortunately numerous list of abilities that deal single-target level burst damage as AoE, at low cost.

 

Maybe you should try playing sents or shadows without any 30%DR. See how it goes for you. hmm? And try to study shadow talent tree hard to see what makes it different from guardian tree. They have a tanking tree too. All problems originate from AOE burst smashes.

[NuRhoPhi]

Maybe you should try playing sents or shadows without any 30%DR. See how it goes for you. hmm? And try to study shadow talent tree hard to see what makes it different from guardian tree. They have a tanking tree too. All problems originate from AOE burst smashes.

 

For pvp -UNRANKED- Warzones I'm currently playing Juyo Marauder, with 15% AoE dmg reduction.

I put 2 points into offhand dmg (second row carnage tree), and two into +force crit from rage tree.

So far, so good, in objective matches Juyo is still awesome for attacking a node; with good use of cooldowns, stealth to get a health pack, etc, it takes 3 derps to down you, at least. 2 if they're competent, which still means someone had to leave another node, and a third probably left too just in case you had a stealth friend with you.

I do intent to start Ataru again at some point, which I played before 2.0.

 

Shadow: my assassin is level 14 atm and feeling extremely underpowered. :-(

Needs far more abilities, and defensive cooldowns.

Regardless, most Shadows/assassins AFAIK spec either center tree for burst, or a hybrid. Pure tank shadow seems rare pvp-wise, pure 'madness' assassin is simply non-existant.

 

In vanguard I currently pvp, again unranked, mostly as assault, sometimes shield.

Tactics feels dirty, whilst assault can still burst. (and, in assault I've never felt as Braindead as playing Smash: assault doesn't have an autocrit AoE, in fact, no autocrit at all)

Assault also doesn't have 30%AoE dmg reduction.

 

 

Thank you for your advice, perhaps you should try it sometime.

 

 

I do think, at some point, the current 30% AoE reductions should be scaled down to 15%, like the reductions against DoT damage.

Yes, smash is a problem: it is a force attack, autocrit, and ignores 30% armor. The above means it can't be defended, shielded, and pierces a chunk of armor. Likewise, tri-stack flamethrower: no defense, no shield, no armor.

-> These abilities need to be looked at. Highest burst atm could be Ataru's gore'd force scream. If smash would no longer autocrit, or on a crit only reach 2/3'rds as high, would that be ok? So, if force scream hits for 9k, smash can reach 6k max.

'Hail of bolts': fine, lightning storm: not exactly imba op. Sticky grenade? Eh. Explosive surge? Cyclone slash? LooL. Future AoE specs should buff the actual AoE abilities, not create undefendable AoE bursts.

And giving full 30% AoE dmg reduction further nullifies the point of the less powerfull AoE's.