Jedi Guardian Changes - Game Update 2.5

[Keleus]

Uh, Combat is still pretty god damn different from Vigilance, trust me on that one lol

[Keleus]

My thought is, why do they ask us what's wrong with our class or what might fix it if they aren't even going to acknowledge the thread THEY post for us? They ask what we think is wrong as the people who play the class, we tell them. They ask us for ideas to fix it, we give them. We sit and discuss and debate and dismiss things too over the top to get down to a handful of little things to help us become competitive with other classes, and they don't even read it. We get no reply, no "hey that sounds great" or "no we it to revolve around this", we instead get ignored on their own thread. That doesn't seem right to me.

 

Now you know why so many people quit this game, and other BW games are **** these days: They simply do not care about the populace's wants and needs, only their own "Art Projects".

 

Proof and Adjacent Points: Mass Effect 3's Ending and Class Balance in the Multiplayer, and the Class Balance/Differences in all of the Dragon Age Games.

[Riivan]

From a more learned perspective on this one, they do see what we're working through and they are listening. However you can't expect the handful of devs to respond to every thread. It's just not going to happen. At best what we could hope for with 2.5 is the root and maybe the focused defense change. The other changes require time to test and balance.

 

It's not so much ignoring as they've got **** to do. The CMs will gather the information, distill it and pass it along. Change will come but it's going to be a few patches worth of changes. It sucks having a broken class, but this is nothing new to MMOs. In WoW, GW2, FFXI, etc there were classes that just sadly didn't operate as well as the others.

 

And the closest thing that Sents have to Vigi Guard is Watchmen.

[Hell_Kaiser_Fett]

From a more learned perspective on this one, they do see what we're working through and they are listening. However you can't expect the handful of devs to respond to every thread. It's just not going to happen. At best what we could hope for with 2.5 is the root and maybe the focused defense change. The other changes require time to test and balance.

 

It's not so much ignoring as they've got **** to do. The CMs will gather the information, distill it and pass it along. Change will come but it's going to be a few patches worth of changes. It sucks having a broken class, but this is nothing new to MMOs. In WoW, GW2, FFXI, etc there were classes that just sadly didn't operate as well as the others.

 

And the closest thing that Sents have to Vigi Guard is Watchmen.

 

I get that they are busy, fair enough, but since they were the ones who posted this thread, they could at least say something here or there. Not a full paragraph long either, just a little something acknowledging or dismissing any ideas or issues. I want their time devoted to fixing the classes, but still a little answer would be nice, ya know.

 

Don't get me wrong Keleus, I like bioware, KotOR was amazing, and I really love Swtor as well, the character customization, the stories, the complexity to the way the classes play, I love it all. I have a few issues with a few minor things, but otherwise this is a great game. And aside from my Merc, Guardian is my favorite class there is, and I love playing it. It would just be nice if we could get fixed.

[Keleus]

And thread goes quiet for too long XD I suppose this is where the waiting game begins and we hope and pray BioWare decides to stop screwing with us as a class T_T

[Creslan]

The first paragraph does nothing but reinforce the fact that you need to be moderated and this is not the thread to post paranoid rants about moderators and trolls, you bring that upon yourself, deal with it and don't cry about it.

 

While myself and others wouldn't mind a response from the CM or devs with some acknowledgment that our ideas were passed onto the powers that be, I'm not going to get upset about it. This thread has pretty much ran its course, we've put forth page after page of ideas. We've argued point and counter point and I believe we all agree what we need, now it's wait and see what 2.5 brings.

Edited November 14, 2013 by Creslan

[Riivan]

I largely figured this was for us in preparation for class rep questions after 2.5. I don't foresee us getting anything other than that root before then.

[JonnyMadDog]

Ey don't bring this upon mself, ey get trold here and in-gam randomly for no reason frequently. Hopefully the mod sees the rude post a few above aimed at mself.

 

Yes, it does seem this thread isn't getting a response anytime soon from powrs that be from the looks of it, will see what 2.5 change (root addition) is like on the public servr and when it's live, ey do think all these ideas will be addressed at some point and maybe. hopefully implemented soon, but won't be w/ 2.5, and will likely need to wait til afterwards for 'em, but would still like at least an aknowledgement from someon this thread's been sukd dry by their team and will say at least it's been read even if they have to say, and it be so, nothing will come of it soon, that'd be cool, bu w/e at this point.

[AndrewanCyabos]

JMD, I'm not being mean or trying to troll you when I say that your posts are extremely hard to read. However, you have small pieces of your posts that are written perfectly or very close therein. This makes me believe you are typing this way on purpose, and I must ask you to stop. Simply trying to read one of your posts gives me a headache and makes my eyes go cross and water. Please for the love of God, please check your posts for proper spelling and grammar. I get the feeling you have would have some very good input for our class but I can't decipher it out of your posts.

 

Thanks.

Edited November 15, 2013 by AndrewanCyabos

[JonnyMadDog]

Rly? Watr and go cross? Hard to believe that. If so, then just don't read, if have nothin nice ot say don't say it, if can't read a post in chat or here, either whispr politely for clarification or ignor it. Tho get the feeling yr not one of the trols when yew say that as yew claim, so will re-elaborate a bit on mey speln.

 

Some words ey simply prefer not to spel out correctly, or completely correctly for various reasons dependant on the word in question. Yes ey CAN typ completely grammaticly correct, but certain, select, few words ey feel uncomfortbale typn out so won't, ey'm not obligated to do so, however some of those words ey may feel r needed to structure a sentenc correctly so ey compromise w/ mself by mispeln em, so as long as the POINT gets across, if ey did it w/o typn that word, cool. Words ey DO spel correctly, as yew noticed ey do spel some words. most words even, correctly, ey have no prob. with. Could yew list some words that r srsly given yew a rly hard time ey could make a key for? Ey made one before when ey got more in-depth in mey ol' "j.m.d" thread under suggest box in gen discuss concerning the various reasons and listing 'em.

[JonnyMadDog]

Ey did come here to contribute on thsi thread and have! This all started when ey saw someon, what ey perceived to be, rude and off-topic and simpyl said 'lez tryn get bak on topic' and continued w/ mey thing, then that persn had to come bak n start and it all went dwnhill from there. And what 'antics' in chat r yew referring to? Freekn voicin mey displeasur, and others' mind yew, that rankd wzones bring someon in when the channel pop is done channeling, so if they've tabbed out they, and their team, is screwed, and it's not like fp/op queues, where one is simply taken off queue if not entered? Are the 'antics' defending mself from insultn/trolish comments by meen peopl and/or throwin it right bak at em (they like to throw it they can't take it? Liv in a glas hous much?). B nice...

 

Back on topic, ey'd like to think and remind everyone that w/e changes may occur w/ this spec, they will occur w/ Veng spec on Empir side as well and likely if there's a major change, like forms being tied to an 'anchor/signature' ability, then all other specs/builds in-gam will likely get some typ of similar mechanic, w/ JC forms doing the same, cells/canisters, etc., or at least a good chance there will b wholesale change w/ some of r ideas suggested, as to balance it out, and face it, there won't be an entire update for 1 spec, r spec, and most likely w/ 2.5 coming so soon and no word on changes to what's coming w/ that update, it'll be aways off, as they'll need to work on the other builds' changes to put in the 'rdy-to-update' pile w/ r's. Yes, sucs it'll b awhile for good/cool major changes, like an that, BUT that doesn't mean a possible small pach may be implemented w/ some sort of increase to dmg across several abilities of several clases, and or 1 small ability be added maybe the offensive grd, to r build, and likely offensive Vgrds and Shados, but those implementations may STILL be a ways off, just not as far as the others, as ALL will need to be gren-litd and tsted out in-hous and/or on the public servr before being officially in.

 

So to recap, with that all in mind, rly the only posts added to this thread should be dev responses sayin it's been lookd at and may be workd on sometime, maybe if someon thinks of a cool idea as well, but w/ 2.5 coming those should probly b added to another thread, not of 2.5 changes, and instead a suggestion box thread.

[Hornakkan]

Added to the Zen Strike proc rate changes (30 -> 45%) I was thinking about something like this for us :

 

 

Focus Mastery

Type : passive ability.

Cooldown : none.

Requires : Shien form.

Effect : each point of Focus enhances your damage, armor penetration and healing per 1%. This can also affect your student.

 

 

Force training

Type : active ability.

Cooldown : none.

Target : group member.

Effect : your friendly target becomes your student until you remove this effect from him/her.

 

 

 

For the Raid Wide buff, something like Inspiration could be great

[RyderQuanTy]

or leap from any range no root on ms

[JonnyMadDog]

Nice suggestions regarding making leap do-able from any distance lower then the minimum, kinda how they made sabr throw change if one has the set req. for that to happen. Would be cool, but not much in the way of something that would get r spec into top-tier ops, cool addition in general tho.

 

Could the poster 2 above elaborate more on this trainer ability they suggested? This a variation of how an offensive guard may work or something else? Agree something like inspir for r spec would be rly great, thinkin' of a op-wide energy replenish, would b cool.

[Keleus]

Added to the Zen Strike proc rate changes (30 -> 45%) I was thinking about something like this for us :

 

 

Focus Mastery

Type : passive ability.

Cooldown : none.

Requires : Shien form.

Effect : each point of Focus enhances your damage, armor penetration and healing per 1%. This can also affect your student.

 

 

Force training

Type : active ability.

Cooldown : none.

Target : group member.

Effect : your friendly target becomes your student until you remove this effect from him/her.

 

 

 

For the Raid Wide buff, something like Inspiration could be great

 

This seems a tad over-cumbersome, and still a little lack luster.

 

As for what can be fixed right now, the following might suffice:

 

- Zen Strike Proc increased to 45%

- Riposte being made multi-stance, with Shien Form having increased damage (thinking 15% more while in Shien Form to make it a priority skill) and no longer needing a defense chance to proc it, and Focus having similar, but instead reduces all damage taken by 5% for 10 seconds after it's usage.

- Guard also being made multi-class and I could see this happening with all tank/dps hybrids. While in their respective DPS forms, in this case Shien and Shi-Cho, the effects change. Shien see's the Guardian and their target's dmg increase a whopping 2% while lowering each other's threat, and Focus Spec via Shi-cho will see the Guardian and their target's Armor Pen increase by 4%.

- Focused Defense no longer costs focus to use. Huzzah.

[Keleus]

The Dreaded Double Post!

 

 

Or to make this REALLY simple and easy on BioWare, just increase the damage done by Guardians by 10% across the board. Bam, done.

[JonnyMadDog]

Well ey concur w/ the notion focusd def thret drop needs to not cost any focus as it spends focus when dmged to heal one's self so that's just less focus for that.

 

Know, after thinking, they may just add mroe description and change up the regular "Guard" so that it has diff effects dependant on the form one is in across all builds w/ the ability to tnk/grd/tant, instead of adding a whole new ability in which would re. more work due to having to make art for it, etc.. Disagree tho on the lower the thret for shin's grd, t he offensive grd shouldn't lower the thret of the grdER only the grdED maybe allow the grdED to b healed a bit and/or dmg and heal for more, like an Inspir buff, while in it, whether grd outside of soresoo's grd (shin and shi-ch's grd's) is as long/permanent as it or has a cd/timer, remains an entirely diff issue, but to lower the thret of the grdER makes little sense if one thinks about it and would make it a bit OP.

 

A defensive/soresoo grd should continue to be about blocking for/taking dmg for a persn, as their shield, whereas an offensive grd should be about becoming a bigger priority for a bos to attack, it'd leave the grdED w/o actual protection, but they'd have the time to pull off an attak as if in a reel fight, so think it'd be a fair tradeoff to ponder in ops for the grdEd to think do they want protection or an Inspir-like buff? Early on protection makes sense, but in brn phases where grp will go dwn no matter and tnkers r expendabl and it's about dmg, another Inspir increase to heals/dmg would be wanted and they'd want a shin/Vig grd on em. Going back to the OP-ness, ey think the tradeoff should be that the grdER in an offensive grd SHOULD HAVE THEIR THRET INCREASED, not decreased, as a soresoo/Def grd should do so for their grdED. Ey think that'd make it more balanced and it's no big deal, as if a tnker/the tnks in a grp r good at all they may or may not lose aggroh for a split sec only and need onyl re-tant. Ey dunno what the feer of re-tanting is for so many tnkers in this gam, there's too many who think they'll take and hold aggroh the whole fight w/o more then 1 starting tant and if they lose it they let their deeps incap, they needa know deeps will/may take their aggroh if they're bahd OR good deeps, just put forth the effort to watch the bos and re-tant periodically to blanket yr aggroh.

 

Concur w/ the notions that a straight-up increase to dmg across and the proc chance of mastr strik should happen.

 

Think ripost could be multi-stance whereas it could be another ability to proc mastr strik, if in shin form, do more dmg/penetration in foc form, and increase thret in def form, as it does already, maybe heal or increase the def of t he tnker in soresoo form when used, but stay thru all 3 specs only usable when one dodges an attak, if that's taken away, it'd probly , and probly should be to feel balanced, have a long cd and not be somethin one will work into their rotation too much, only when active, ripost.

 

Oh, and Foc spec/shi-ch form grds should probly yeah concur increase the armor pen for the grdED BUT DECREASE the grdERs OR if not decreased, and instead INCREASED as well, then the grdER's def/armor rating should b diminished, as there should be that penalty/takeaway to debate as think of it like this, the above ideas r cool, but like how soresoo/def grds cause the grdER in that case to gain more dmg, it seems w/o mey ideas listed here, Vig/shin and Foc/shi-ch grds, if implemented look to have no penalty to them and seem OP.

 

Hopn this all helps towards the goal of buffin Grdian deeps, thx for readn!

[Riivan]

I wouldn't give us the ability to leap at close range. That's a sent perk, plus we have saber throw and some dmg reduction tied to our leap that would need to be reduced to balance us having a close range leap.

[JonnyMadDog]

True, would still b cool tho, had thought of that being a bit OP, and it does seem more of a Sentl-like move being how they flurry about.

[volander]

I wouldn't give us the ability to leap at close range. That's a sent perk, plus we have saber throw and some dmg reduction tied to our leap that would need to be reduced to balance us having a close range leap.

 

This is what I suggested earlier.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=6920147&postcount=246

 

This improves the survival rate, gives us a second interrupt (instead of reducing the cooldown in the middle branch of Vanguard/PT) and solves problems with the resource management. I would add to this increase in distance of five meters.

Still, compared with 30% AoE damage reduction and - 30% while stunned or Rebuke, our -20% damage for 4 seconds every 15 seconds, almost nothing has changed.

[Riivan]

The devs have already commented that they'll probably knock Sent defensives down. If they give it to us I won't complain and it might work out well, but that particular perk feels very sent like to me. As I've said, I just warn when changes push us into the sent realm.

 

Also Rebuke is 20% for 6 - 30sec every minute which is quite nice, but I think that's the first sent CD to get knocked down once they get to it. They're going to the slow and steady route it seems.

[JonnyMadDog]

They needa understand tho, nrfing sentls by any amount is NOT a BUFF to r spec, a BUFF is! And r spec will still be doing the same x-y amount of dmg in z gear w/ a skill and b procs w/ c rotation and that needs improvement. But eh, will see what happens n how what they got coming works out.

[volander]

The devs have already commented that they'll probably knock Sent defensives down. If they give it to us I won't complain and it might work out well, but that particular perk feels very sent like to me. As I've said, I just warn when changes push us into the sent realm.

 

Also Rebuke is 20% for 6 - 30sec every minute which is quite nice, but I think that's the first sent CD to get knocked down once they get to it. They're going to the slow and steady route it seems.

 

But what's wrong with being a bit like a Sent? You just have to put the right question, as we see Veng in PvE / PvP? Personally, I see Vengeans a similar Tactics/APrototype(except the possibility of doing a hybrid). Class with a balanced damage / survival, where the couple abilities prepare powerful burst, and chenel needed as a filler that would allow to flow down cooldown. Class is capable to stick to the target and tie down her actions.

But the current situation is such that the class does not represent anything special. No great damage to instantly change the situation on the battlefield, the class that lives exactly as much as living his group healer. Class that does not have any special skills that would guarantee him a place in the group. Funny, interesting, but you'll be much more productively playing for any other spec.

Once again I apologize for my English

[Riivan]

No worries on the English. When it's not an act like Jonny it's entirely understandable.

 

I don't think there is anything wrong with being like sents. Personally I think they got it a little backward in the survivability category between Sents and Guards. The only problem I have is when we start to operate mechanically like a Sent. For instance leaping with no range, healing our group, slash resetting Master Strike, inspiration style buff, etc.

[JonnyMadDog]

Hey, enuff w/ the jabs at mself, ey'm not troln.

 

Anyways, nah they didn't get it backwards, they needa give r spec an inspir like buff only feel an op wide energy increase would be the way to go and an offensive guard that increases r thret decreases the grded's thret and increases the dmg n healing done by and/or to the grded (w/ 'to' disregard the dmg part). Am on the fence about leap being able to be done so at a closer range...

 

Am keen on ripost (if not slash, as think it'd be a bit much/weird for slash a normal low lvl big hit till yew get the bigger hit ability, to trigger mastr strik sometimes) possibly triggering mastr strik, but that's all, just keep it as a dodge then able to use ability/counterattack, as then r rotation/s wouldn't be too affected at all, and don't have to woree bout factoring slash in, as ripost is randomly thrown out as available and used when it is, a free mastr strik after some riposts would b cool. Of course it wouldn't proc as much as def/tnker Grds but they don't do enuff dmg as tnkers for that to mattr, let em get free mastr striks more often then offensive Grdians, n r spec w/ no def stats stacked, kinda balances it out, fewer yet stronger mastr striks as an offensive Grdian vs. more, yet weker, mastr striks by tnking def Grdians.

 

Maybe they got it a bit backwards if they made it so it mirroed kotr's 3 JK/C (Grd, Sentl, n Cons) clas makeup, but this/it's diff from that.