Beniboybling Posted October 3, 2013 Author Share Posted October 3, 2013 I'm just going to say something about Sidious' first death: at least he didn't walk into somebody's lightsaber. So much for the mighty Sith Emperor.Lol. I think he wanted to give him a hug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 I can see the one-upsmanship from DK, but not Bioware. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divinecynic Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 I'm just going to say something about Sidious' first death: at least he didn't walk into somebody's lightsaber. So much for the mighty Sith Emperor. No he got snatched up by an asthmatic in cape and tossed over a rail. All that planning for nothing. So much for the mighty Galactic Emperor. One of the points of Star Wars is that the villain gets his in the end and usually dies badly. Both Tenebrae and Palpatine die with egg on their faces. You might even argue Palpatine looked even more the fool in his first death. Well sort of die. The rule since Dark Empire is sith do not stay dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 No he got snatched up by an asthmatic in cape and tossed over a rail. All that planning for nothing. So much for the mighty Galactic Emperor. One of the points of Star Wars is that the villain gets his in the end and usually dies badly. Both Tenebrae and Palpatine die with egg on their faces. You might even argue Palpatine looked even more the fool in his first death. Well sort of die. The rule since Dark Empire is sith do not stay dead. Except the Sith Emperor charged into the lightsaber. Sidious was stabbed in the back. Totally different things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 3, 2013 Author Share Posted October 3, 2013 Oh no I was not saying that his reigned was that long. We do know it lasts over 1200 years though and Palpatine does not make to 50. I was saying that Tenebrae's end as in his death may be that far away. Even if he dies before Bane we are still talking some time. And yeah sooner of later he bites it. Then again maybe he ascends and becomes a dark side force of nature and haunts a nebula or something. My point is that too much is in flux to be absolutely sure. Bioware going for the whole dark god bit with him also raises doubts. The evidence does learn to Palpatine but the game is not over either. As to contradicting canon, see the rest of my posts where I talk about how trustworthy canon is in light that every level of it gets changed off and on.He already has bitten it, at least in body. So don't expect him to be around much longer. I expect he'll make a final come back, and then be put down for good. I doubt he'll be around any longer than the lifespan of the games main characters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divinecynic Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 (edited) Yes of course they based him on Palpatine, that is what I just said, but do they have an insidious (pun not intended) plot to make him more powerful? I highly doubt that. And are they trying to make a better Vader? Again I'd like to think BioWare are not so petty and concerned with one-upmanship and instead more interested in creating quality games that appeal to the fans. The Sith Emperor and Malgus are designed to appeal to what fans know and love, and what they can relate to. Though in all honesty I expect Malgus is simply BioWare picking the warrior archetype for a certain character and the inevitable similarities followed. Well I do not think that they sat down that way and thought things through in those terms. But I do think they have been trying to draw an audience and building on the foundation. It is not a cause of one-up-manship and more a case of exploiting the franchise. So they make a guy who looks like Palpatine as Emperor (same fashion sense and still looking pale and gaunt and all that), but make his goal bigger and even more evil? Oh and they call him the Sith Emperor and even put the body swapping bit from Dark Empire in there too. Oh and the whole dark god bit and Palpatine's dark side theocracy (I have heard it called). We may argue if they succeeded but seriously Palpatine but more is what they went for. As to Malgus and Vader. Dude he even looks like him in Deceived with Vader's helmet off. Oh and the respirator, and the cybernetics. Sorry in this case it is clear Bioware went back to the the two biggest bad guys in the franchise and tried to make cooler version of them. Not trying to one up but trying to create quality games. Star Wars in its best versions is about your gut. They targeted that. Emotional response not trying to outdo Lucas. As to the orginal point. It does seem that Bioware is sure allowing it to be said and is hinting that Tenebrae was the most powerful. We argue who succeeded I grant. Edited October 3, 2013 by divinecynic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 3, 2013 Author Share Posted October 3, 2013 (edited) Well I do not think that they sat down that way and thought things through in those terms. But I do think they have been trying to draw an audience and building on the foundation. It is not a cause of one-up-manship and more a case of exploiting the franchise. So they make a guy who looks like Palpatine as Emperor (same fashion sense and still looking pale and gaunt and all that), but make his goal bigger and even more evil? Oh and they call him the Sith Emperor and even put the body swapping bit from Dark Empire in there too. Oh and the whole dark god bit and Palpatine's dark side theocracy (I have heard it called). We may argue if they succeeded but seriously Palpatine but more is what they went for. As to Malgus and Vader. Dude he even looks like him in Deceived with Vader's helmet off. Oh and the respirator, and the cybernetics. Sorry in this case it is clear Bioware went back to the the two biggest bad guys in the franchise and tried to make cooler version of them.Again they've taken the archetype of a Sith Emperor and the similarities follow. Simply as nothing else to it. Same applies to Malgus, I expect they even have a check list. Sure they tried to make them as good as possible, and likely better. But making a cool character doesn't demand you make them more powerful than what your copying, and lets face it, if that's what they have been trying to do they've failed, and quite miserably for that matter. The Sith Emperor doesn't even surpass Darth Caedus. EDIT: Add that to the fact that the similarities between Sidious and the Vitiate end with the title Emperor. Edited October 3, 2013 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divinecynic Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Except the Sith Emperor charged into the lightsaber. Sidious was stabbed in the back. Totally different things. SIgh The point is both men died badly. It is part of the fabric of Star Wars that villains get theirs in the end. The OP's point that Tenebrae's death is somehow worse then Palpatines is kind of silly. At best it is a difference of degrees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sell-dog Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 (edited) Also, as someone else pointed out, by making all the Sith Empire's stuff look a lot like the Galactic Empire's stuff and having the some of the Sith dress like Sidious, it actually makes Palpatine look like he was imitating them. Bioware really makes it look like Palpatine is trying not to be Bane or Qel-Droma but Tenebrae. Which is funny because the game is actually imitating the movies. But since it comes first timeline-wise... I know this was some posts ago but I want address it. The out of universe perspective is, like other people said, Bioware marketing/etc. to potential customers to relate their product to previous SW material. I would more like to go into the in-universe perspective. I can/do agree that Palpatine could've modeled himself and the Empire after Tenebrae and Tenebrae's Empire. Do I think this means that Palpatine is less powerful? No. Many many cases in our history can be given where one person is influenced by others then said person ends up being better than his/her predecessors. Example: Michael Jordan. That's all I need to say about that example. Yes Palpatine put in the stupid alien inferiority rules that we see in the Sith Empire. The Bane SIth and the New Sith Wars Sith (Kas'im, Ruin, etc.) held no regard over such rule so yes Palpatine could've done this after Tenebrae's model or because Palpatine's a messed up guy. Yes Palpatine looks like Tenbrae. Can we blame him for modeling Tenebrae? Up until Palpatine, Tenebrae was the most successful and powerful Sith (there is a difference). Is it bad to have him as a model? In Eps III Palpatine says "Once more the Sith will rule the galaxy". At the moment, the sith that statement most aligns with is probably Tenebrae. (as an aside I hope more of TOR era is expanded b/c Tenebrae's Empire was half the galaxy so I prefer that statement in Eps III to reference someone who ruled more than half). End of the day I can/do agree Palpatine had Tenebrae as a model. Do I think by doing so this is a point for Tenebrae in the "more powerful" column? No Edit: I am enjoying the more civil-ness of this debate at the moment relative to other times this issue has came up Edited October 3, 2013 by sell-dog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divinecynic Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Again they've taken the archetype of a Sith Emperor and the similarities follow. Simply as nothing else to it. Same applies to Malgus, I expect they even have a check list. Sure they tried to make them as good as possible, and likely better. But making a cool character doesn't demand you make them more powerful than what your copying, and lets face it, if that's what they have been trying to do they've failed, and quite miserably for that matter. The Sith Emperor doesn't even surpass Darth Caedus. EDIT: Add that to the fact that the similarities between Sidious and the Vitiate end with the title Emperor. " Luke, you will find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view." Obi-Wan "Always in motion is the future." Yoda Look it comes to this. What EU stuff you decide to use and what you don't. Plus the cannon is in flux. Stuff gets thrown out and new stuff gets put in. Perhaps Bioware failed in making him more powerful but the story is not over. Maybe Tenebrae is beaten and maybe he isn't. So I stand by what said. The evidence does lean toward Palpatine. The evidence is not rock solid because the story is done. One last thing you are arguing against power creep. I would argue that is what a lot of this is based on. I have seen it about Palpatine and Caedius (such crap writing there) and now Tenebrae. The power increase is in long SW tradition. There are a lot of fanboy wirters out there. Bioware has their share too I am sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divinecynic Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 (edited) I know this was some posts ago but I want address it. The out of universe perspective is, like other people said, Bioware marketing/etc. to potential customers to relate their product to previous SW material. I would more like to go into the in-universe perspective. I can/do agree that Palpatine could've modeled himself and the Empire after Tenebrae and Tenebrae's Empire. Do I think this means that Palpatine is less powerful? No. Many many cases in our history can be given where one person is influenced by others then said person ends up being better than his/her predecessors. Example: Michael Jordan. That's all I need to say about that example. Yes Palpatine put in the stupid alien inferiority rules that we see in the Sith Empire. The Bane SIth and the New Sith Wars Sith (Kas'im, Ruin, etc.) held no regard over such rule so yes Palpatine could've done this after Tenebrae's model or because Palpatine's a messed up guy. Yes Palpatine looks like Tenbrae. Can we blame him for modeling Tenebrae? Up until Palpatine, Tenebrae was the most successful and powerful Sith (there is a difference). Is it bad to have him as a model? In Eps III Palpatine says "Once more the Sith will rule the galaxy". At the moment, the sith that statement most aligns with is probably Tenebrae. (as an aside I hope more of TOR era is expanded b/c Tenebrae's Empire was half the galaxy so I prefer that statement in Eps III to reference someone who ruled more than half). End of the day I can/do agree Palpatine had Tenebrae as a model. Do I think by doing so this is a point for Tenebrae in the "more powerful" column? No Edit: I am enjoying the more civil-ness of this debate at the moment relative to other times this issue has came up No I was more chuckling about it really. It does not make Tenebrae powerful but it does look like Palpatine wanted to be Tenebrae when he grew up. How his Empire looked and the whole bit. Which again is funny cause in reality it is the reverse. Well played Bioware Edit: I think I am going to bow out here because I am not sure what else I can add really. Bioware's intent is even a rabbit trail bbecause no matter how powerful they wanted Tenebrae to be does not mean they succeeded. At the end of the day though it is all up in the air till we know more. Edited October 3, 2013 by divinecynic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 3, 2013 Author Share Posted October 3, 2013 " Luke, you will find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view." Obi-Wan "Always in motion is the future." Yoda Look it comes to this. What EU stuff you decide to use and what you don't. Plus the cannon is in flux. Stuff gets thrown out and new stuff gets put in. Perhaps Bioware failed in making him more powerful but the story is not over. Maybe Tenebrae is beaten and maybe he isn't. So I stand by what said. The evidence does lean toward Palpatine. The evidence is not rock solid because the story is done. One last thing you are arguing against power creep. I would argue that is what a lot of this is based on. I have seen it about Palpatine and Caedius (such crap writing there) and now Tenebrae. The power increase is in long SW tradition. There are a lot of fanboy wirters out there. Bioware has their share too I am sure.His story isn't over, but I highly doubt BioWare are going to go out of their way to make him more powerful. That is what we have here, BioWare may have been trying to make the Sith Emperor cooler but to do that they do not have to make him more powerful - and as such if that is their goal they won't go out of their way to do so. And yes you do have a point about power creep, but those writing Sidious have set the standards extremely high, and now I can see why. Sidious' position as the best of the best needed to be solidified, so they went hardcore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Vitiate's bid for power makes me glad Dark Empire is what it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Vitiate's bid for power makes me glad Dark Empire is what it is. Why's that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 (edited) Why's that? Because it makes Sidious' position concrete. At least to those who don't ignore it and pretty much everything else Sidious has done. Then again, Dark Empire being marked as 'post-ROTJ trash' doesn't really hurt Sidious' power, because there's so much before that to show him as the best. But I like Dark Empire because it raises the bar to unfathomable heights. Heights that Vitiate can only dream of reaching. Edited October 3, 2013 by Aurbere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Because it makes Sidious' position concrete. At least to those who don't ignore it and pretty much everything else Sidious has done. Then again, Dark Empire being marked as 'post-ROTJ trash' doesn't really hurt Sidious' power, because there's so much before that to show him as the best. But I like Dark Empire because it raises the bar to unfathomable heights. Heights that Vitiate can only dream of reaching. Huh...thought I was the only one that didn't mind Dark Empire. But quite yes, if it goes then you still have plenty of other high showings of Palps regardless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 3, 2013 Author Share Posted October 3, 2013 Because it makes Sidious' position concrete. At least to those who don't ignore it and pretty much everything else Sidious has done. Then again, Dark Empire being marked as 'post-ROTJ trash' doesn't really hurt Sidious' power, because there's so much before that to show him as the best. But I like Dark Empire because it raises the bar to unfathomable heights. Heights that Vitiate can only dream of reaching.Well I don't take much issue with the Force Storm in Dark Empire, its just the idea of Sidious coming back I don't like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 I used to mind Dark Empire, but now I am perfectly fine with it. If anything, it serves as a nice trump card for situations like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 (edited) Well I don't take much issue with the Force Storm in Dark Empire, its just the idea of Sidious coming back I don't like. Would you rather have Vader come back? Is my response. At least with Sidious it was plausible given his power. Edited October 3, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 3, 2013 Author Share Posted October 3, 2013 Would you rather have Vader come back? Is my response. At least with Sidious it was plausible given his power.I'd rather they all stayed dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 I'd rather they all stayed dead. Well he did die permanently eventually. Though I mean if you had to pick between the two which? Exactly! But anyway moving on with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaedusz Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 (edited) a community consisting of the colored team and a few more buddies. /clap A community that fortunately Kaedusz is not a part of... yes,Captain Obvious.I thought it was clear this was my position by default , all along. It's a community effort. You failing to participate in any meaningful way ... Thank the Force for that. Edited October 4, 2013 by Kaedusz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 yes,Captain Obvious.I thought it was clear this was my default position all along. Thank the Force for that. If you don't want to be part of the community's projects, then don't complain about them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaedusz Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 (edited) If you don't want to be part of the community's projects, then don't complain about them. You are confusing complaining with something else.I don't mind them. Edited October 4, 2013 by Kaedusz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 You are confusing complaining with something else.I don't mind them. Oh really? I have seen pretty insane results in those threads of yours,so saying it leads to accurate results in full conviction,is laughable at best. a community consisting of the colored team and a few more buddies. /clap Seems like you certainly do mind them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts